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View Full Version : Jack of All Trades- Cool, or Useless?



Human Paragon 3
2007-09-18, 10:22 PM
Jack of All is a seemingly cool feat that gives you "ranks" in everything, allowing you to attempt decipher script, UMD, knowledge skills and all the rest without having to waste skill points (just a feat...).

Cool as it sounds to be good at a little bit of everything, the DCs for those trained only skills are high- so high that it makes me question how useful half a rank would be. Has anyone used this feat? How good or bad is it?

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-18, 10:38 PM
I'm guessing it might be useful if you're like a super-high Intelligence Wizard who has better things to spend his Skill-points on, while still being able to tell you just about anything on anything(ie, Knowledge: Whatever).

Hzurr
2007-09-18, 10:41 PM
Still, it's nice to be able to try. There's always natural 20s...

And, there are always special circumstances where the DC isn't so impossible. I mean, say there's an int-based "trained only" skill, but you're a wizard and you have a magical item that gives a bonus. Suddenly, you have +10 to a skill, and that DC doesn't seem so impossible.

Now, I realize that I'm stretching here, so honestly, the feat isn't that great. But sometimes, it will randomly play off, and it makes for fun RPing possiblities

Cronacht
2007-09-18, 10:42 PM
Never used it myself, but with the proper stats, it could be quite interesting at the very least.

More than a +1 Wis modifier when you're at dying? Substitute Autohypnosis check for the roll to stabilize. Tumble only requires DC 15 for a success; good for moving just out of AoO range if you can't take a 5-foot step or don't want to/can't double-move. You don't need to worry about landing prone on a Jump, and you can Appraise things without a Rogue. Impersonate professions. And of course you're getting occasional utility off lucky Knowledge and Spellcraft rolls.

It's cool, and not useless, but quite hit or miss (less so when working with action points, which give you a small chance to actually hit high DCs)

Really, the most damning strike against it is that when I feel tempted to choose it for flavor reasons, I'm usually playing a skill monkey anyway. <_<

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-09-18, 10:43 PM
Be a human, pick up Able Learner, and be a rogue. You've suddenly become a living skill god.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-18, 10:46 PM
I played a Bard for a year and a half with this feat in conjunction with the Bardic Knack ability. It actually was a fairly massive advantage. Being able to have a chance of making every Knowledge check there is (actually I succeeded quite often with 24 intelligence at eigth level), to be able to attempt skills like Disable Device or Handle Animal is a hefty bonus over having to stop and let the Cleric rest to readjust his spells according to whatever problem is at hand.
Of course, if a party has a single dedicated skill-guy (as most do) or even a single utility caster, the feat would be obscelete.

tsuyoshikentsu
2007-09-18, 11:14 PM
I played a Bard for a year and a half with this feat in conjunction with the Bardic Knack ability. It actually was a fairly massive advantage. Being able to have a chance of making every Knowledge check there is (actually I succeeded quite often with 24 intelligence at eigth level), to be able to attempt skills like Disable Device or Handle Animal is a hefty bonus over having to stop and let the Cleric rest to readjust his spells according to whatever problem is at hand.

Huh. I hadn't actually thought of using them BOTH before. Nice find.

Machete
2007-09-19, 12:07 AM
Great for high int characters who don't plan on investing a lot in more than a couple knowledge skills. Or high wis characters who want to be highly proficient in every profession ever.

Passenger: Are you really a master sailor who is going to navigate us out of this storm?
High Wis Char: I am today.
Passenger: I suppose you been doing this for a while.
High Wis Char: A couple hours anyways.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-19, 12:10 AM
Natural 20/1 are not auto-success/failures for Skills.

Human Paragon 3
2007-09-19, 12:21 AM
Where is Bardic Knack located? What does Able Learner do?

slexlollar89
2007-09-19, 12:32 AM
Bardic Knack is the Bardic Knowledge variant from Players II, nd Able Learner is a feat in Races of Destiny.

BK lets you add 1/2 your bard level to any skill you have ranks in (or something similar, don't have it open)
AL lets you use 1 point for all skills, even cross class skills.

slexlollar89
2007-09-19, 12:35 AM
I did the human skill dude once... he was a human ranger with a warforged companion.

AslanCross
2007-09-19, 12:37 AM
Able Learner basically makes all skills class skills for you.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-19, 12:40 AM
Bardic Knack lets you replace ranks in a skill with half of your Bard level so long as you're qualified to use the skill. Jack of All Trades allows you to use all skills. Together you get a sort of all-around pseudocompetence.

Renx
2007-09-19, 05:35 AM
I...over having to stop and let the Cleric rest to readjust his spells according to whatever problem is at hand...

Um... Clerics don't renew their spells "after 8 hours of rest", they get it by praying for (about) an hour at a time specified by the God you worship, eg around dawn, dusk, noon, midnight.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-19, 06:01 AM
Jack of All is a seemingly cool feat that gives you "ranks" in everything, allowing you to attempt decipher script, UMD, knowledge skills and all the rest without having to waste skill points (just a feat...).

Cool as it sounds to be good at a little bit of everything, the DCs for those trained only skills are high- so high that it makes me question how useful half a rank would be. Has anyone used this feat? How good or bad is it?

This feat is completely useless. Get Able Learner instead.

Seriously, spending a feat to be able to fail checks at "trained only" skills? Yeah, it's worthless.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-19, 06:06 AM
Whenever I make a character that has at least average skill points, I run into the question of whether I should put points in such skills as tumble, sleight of hand, disable device, and so forth, simply because some weird arbitrary rule prohibits me from trying anything related to those skills unless I have at least one rank in it. I hate having my character options limited away from things an ordinary human could do (and probably fail at, but at least try).

I usually end up not doing that for cross-class skills because it frankly isn't worth it, and any decent DM will let you attempt the task anyway. I consider the "trained only" rule to be poor, arbitrary and redundant.

(edit) Hm, I just realized that putting one skill point in a cross-class skill (netting you half a rank, for no bonus) means it qualifies as trained, and hence allows for rolls on that skill. Cheesy but true, and worth it if you have a decent ability bonus.

Saph
2007-09-19, 06:43 AM
It's quite nice for characters like Wizards with high Int scores, because it means you get to do Knowledge and Craft checks untrained.

There are loads and loads of Knowledge and Craft skills, all of which are basically trained only. If you want to be able to use them normally, you have to put 1 rank into every skill you plan to use, which gets old fast. This lets you use them all.

If your character happens to be an elf and you're using Races of the Wild, though, there's a similar but slightly better feat called Elven Dilettante, which is definitely worth taking (as long as you don't mind the name).

It's especially cool with the Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) spell. Lets you make anything with a Craft check, in a matter of seconds. Want a customised object of any kind? Poof, there it is. Combs, hair clips, sealing plugs, toys, keys, glass sculptures, knives, empty books, brackets, doorstops, anything you can think of. Not only cool, but very useful if you've got a good imagination.

- Saph

KIDS
2007-09-19, 06:48 AM
I have gotten some good use out of it with Bard (who can very well use having 0.5 ranks in all perform skills for a lot of causes) and then merging it with Improvisation spell in Spell Compedium. Having a Disable Device of, say, +0 ranks +3 int +2 MW tool +6 insight can open a lot of traps all by itself. Also, suddenly making a Knowledge (Arithmethics) check or something can also be helpful - depends on your DM. Overall, it's a fun feat, but not terribly useful unless you have things to complement it.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-19, 07:00 AM
I have gotten some good use out of it with Bard (who can very well use having 0.5 ranks in all perform skills for a lot of causes) and then merging it with Improvisation spell in Spell Compedium.If that's your grand scheme, CAdv's Versatile Performer is what you want, not Jack of All Trades.

Telonius
2007-09-19, 07:17 AM
The feat isn't bad for a fighter. Any full casting class has better things to spend their feats on. Skillmonkey Rogues won't need it. Barbarians, Rangers, and Paladins could probably all find some more important feat. Monks... maybe. But you're already a monk, so you need to invest in as much combat stuff as you can to stay up. So probably not.

Fighters get pretty hosed on the skill points, and they have feats to throw around. A free half-rank in tumble lets them at least try to not get hit with an AoO when they close in. All of the other half-ranks let them move away from their "only ever potentially useful in combat situations" rut. At the minimum, he can try to aid the Rogue on some skill checks.

So, not really useful overall; but not completely sucky for fighters

AnnShadow
2007-09-19, 10:32 AM
Be a human, pick up Able Learner, and be a rogue. You've suddenly become a living skill god.

You MUST take it at level 1 and be a human.

Also, it does not make skills class skills. Just makes the cost 1 instead of 2. You are still restricted to half the ranks as a cross-class skill.

I usually take it as my first feat.

I think I will take Jack-of-all-trades, too. Many rolls are a 5 or 10 (knowledge skills come to mind).

Kurald Galain
2007-09-19, 10:39 AM
I think I will take Jack-of-all-trades, too. Many rolls are a 5 or 10 (knowledge skills come to mind).

However, that is called "common knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm)", and you're allowed to roll for that even if untrained.

Curmudgeon
2007-09-19, 03:16 PM
If you've got good stats but few skill points, Jack of All Trades can be useful. Or you can use a spell like Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) to get an immediate boost to your skill check, and be golden.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-19, 06:40 PM
Um... Clerics don't renew their spells "after 8 hours of rest", they get it by praying for (about) an hour at a time specified by the God you worship, eg around dawn, dusk, noon, midnight.
It's effectively the same thing. Either way you have to lose all momentum to let a spellcaster prepare.

kme
2007-09-19, 06:59 PM
If you have really good ability modifiers it could be useful.

slexlollar89
2007-09-19, 07:53 PM
I see the feat as more of a flavor deal, Like I made a (Homebrew) Yugoloth paldin, who was trying to free his god. He had this feat, and used almost every skill on the list. The ida was he was a self sufficiant loner type (obviously he was really NE). He was really fun to play, setting up traps and making alchemy bombs, not to mention craft (poison), with which he would coat his entire body, and armor. He also loved acid, and as a yugoloth was immune... good times with rarely used skills.

F.H. Zebedee
2007-09-19, 10:36 PM
Can you use Jack of All Trades with newer skills? (Autohypnosis, Iaijutsu (Sp?), etc.)

If so, it might at least lead to some interesting results.

And as said, it's efficient for the skill-point-meager to use it for their tumble. Even moreso with a good Dex.

I'd say it's a solid, but not staple, feat. It can do some good with certain builds (the Bardic Knack one was another solid suggestion. A bard with all good ability scores? Yes please! Those DCs are nothing when you've got a +10 (Or even +20 around max level, with items and ability scores boosting it.) to them.

dr.cello
2007-09-19, 10:45 PM
If I recall correctly, Bardic Knack requires you to have at least 1 rank in a trained-only skill, whereas Jack Of All Trades only treats you as having half a rank in it. In other words, they don't stack.

Indon
2007-09-19, 10:47 PM
If I recall correctly, Bardic Knack requires you to have at least 1 rank in a trained-only skill, whereas Jack Of All Trades only treats you as having half a rank in it. In other words, they don't stack.

If Jack of All Trades only gave you 1/2 a rank because it's a cross-class skill, Able Learner should fix that.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-19, 10:48 PM
There's nothing to stack...One lets you use skills, one gives a bonus on all skills that you can use (not ranks so cross-class doesn't matter).

dr.cello
2007-09-19, 10:51 PM
Jack of All Trades treats you as having half a rank in all skills specifically because it doesn't give you a bonus, but it now counts as trained.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-09-20, 12:49 AM
The real cheese isn't using it for the measely 1/2 rank, it's to gain access to all trained-only skills. Mixed with Able Learned, the rogue class (scout is also advised), and the highest intelligence modifier you can manage, you can turn this into one hell of a potent feat. Your combat capacity will take quite a hit without some clever min/maxing, but with skills like that, who needs combat?

If you attempt this build, try acquiring custom equippables that raise skills as well. Skill enhancing items are insanely cheap, especially for someone with a silver tongue and golden hands.

Kit Engel
2007-09-20, 12:56 AM
Jack of All Trades is nice, but you can get a slightly better (but a bit more focused) effect, if you're a Chameleon, and use the Floating Feat to get Open-Minded. Then change the floating feat with open-minded's focus to whatever skill you happen to need.

TheOOB
2007-09-20, 02:09 AM
The trouble with Jack of All trades is that most trained only skills you would want to use require a high skill mod to be useful. If you have enough Int to get use out of all those craft and knowledge skills and what not, you problem have enough spare skill points to sink one point into a skill to get it trained. One skill point isn't worth very much, one feat is.

If you must use a feat, Open Minded (XPH) grants 5 skill points, which can be used to train five skills and give them a small bonus too, the best part is when you finally have free points to devote to these skills, the feat doesn't become completely worthless.

Awetugiw
2007-09-20, 02:46 AM
I don't have the book with me right now, but does JoaT allow the use of otherwise forbidden skills? A Sorcerer with high cha and a circlet of persuasion might actually have some use of UMD that way.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-20, 05:05 AM
I don't have the book with me right now, but does JoaT allow the use of otherwise forbidden skills? A Sorcerer with high cha and a circlet of persuasion might actually have some use of UMD that way.

UMD isn't exclusive to Rogues and Bards anymore. It's just cross-class for everyone except them, Warlocks, and some others.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-09-20, 11:04 AM
Useless: You have every skill and will succeed at none of them. Remember that there is no auto-success on Nat 20's with skills.

Any class should have much more desirable feat choices.

Telonius
2007-09-20, 11:38 AM
Useless: You have every skill and will succeed at none of them. Remember that there is no auto-success on Nat 20's with skills.

Any class should have much more desirable feat choices.

You don't necessarily need to succeed on the check. All you need to roll is a 10, and your skillmonkey gets a +2 to his check.

Skills that could potentially benefit from this:

Craft
Decipher Script
Disable Device (except magic traps)
Handle Animal
Open Lock
Perform
Profession


Even if you have flat 10's on all of your stats, and don't invest any other skill points in the skills I listed, you still give a +2 bonus 50% of the time on 7 skills for the duration of your campaign. Disable Device and Open Lock stand out as two of the really useful ones. Craft could come in handy if you have an alchemist in the party. Not bad. Not uber-powerful, but not useless either.

EDIT: Fixed to reflect Trained Only