Strongest Gated monster?

[RoboEmperor]

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[John05]

That depends so much on what your DM allows you to get away with. Written as raw, if the DM doesn't set restrictions on the spell (e.g. "You can only summon what you and the rest of the world knows exists." / "That paragon, saint, god-blooded Solar you're looking for doesn't exist / or he is too specific and counts as a unique being, and refuses to answer your call.")

If there's no limitations, then we could go ham and call an exemplar like Asmodeus or an advanced (36 HD), elite-array, heavily-templated Solar (or Demilich if we're evil).

If we're limited to base creatures, for combat, the Gibbering Orb is pretty cool. It has 24 ray attacks (One of them being a damned Disjunction) and 12 bite attacks it can make each turn. It breaks action economy wide open.

That being said, I and most people I know prefer PF's version of Gate. "In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level." And instead of limiting the multiple summon option to your caster level, it's twice.

3.5's version of gate, on the two opposite extremes you can as a 20th-wizard choose between summoning a 40 HD Solar or Demilich (giving it like caster level 40, a demigod that curbstomps most of the entries in the ELH)... or 20 level 1 goblins. Hmmm, 40 HD outsider or 20 goblins. Really?

At least the encounter level we can end up with in PF's version of Gate can have something more reasonable to choose between. A BBEG can choose between gating four Retrievers (for a EL 14 encounter) and 2 balors EL 22. That sounds bad, but 3.5's? Two Retrievers or a 40 HD Balor. EL 12 vs EL 40. I personally love this nerf, even though I still use 3.5. PF's Gate is still one of the strongest spells in the game even after this nerf, but at least it's not out-of-this-world like 3.5's.

And for PF's version of Gate, I actually start caring about finding efficient creatures with high CR, low HD, because it's not as bonkers/outrageous as 3.5's. In that case, I'd look at the Planetar. Very low HD, but it has 17th-level Cleric spells (level 9 divine magic) and has CR 16 for just a 14 HD creature. A 17th level wizard could fit a Planetar and 20 HD more of other creatures using the "nerf'd" version of Gate. (Ofc, PF nerfs the planetar too, making it caster level 16th for 17 HD, so if you completely use PF instead of just using that singular Gate nerf, that would be a problem).

[John05]

You cannot call advanced creatures with gate, nor Asmodeus because you can only call a particular kind of creature which will always be average so no advanced hd or templates so 40hd solars are out and you can't call named creatures so asmodeus is out

Is that your DM's rules? Because by RAW, I don't see that.


By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling.

You can name a particular being OR kind of being. It's also rather ambiguous how flexible "kind of being" is, even if we weren't being specific and asking for unique beings. Suppose I ask for "an unusually powerful or elder Balor". I'm not specifically asking for Severik, the right hand of Demogorgon. The Gate could find me some other advanced Balor in the multiverse.

"Particular" itself already allows some level of specificity.

Besides all this, you actually can in fact call named creatures,


Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord.

This, ofc, it up to the DM, which is what I said from the start. The spell heavily relies on DM affordance. He sets the parameters. He creates to world that determines how ridiculous Gate can be.

[John05]

edit:I'm not seeing an extraplanar tag on the Gibbering Orb.

Hmm, someone can correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I had a few assumptions about that. One that so long as the creature came from a different plane, it gains "extraplanar". It's a relatively flexible tag. E.g. any animal that gets celestial or fiendish templates added to them become extraplanar, because they *tend* to be from the outerplanes, not the Material Plane. Then you have the inverse where you have "native" subtype outsiders like Rakshasas. Not extraplanar, despite being outsiders. IME it's one of the more flexible subtypes for me.

It can also depend on the setting. Mind Flayers aren't extraplanar in the MM, but in Eberron, where they came from Xoriat, they're extraplanar on top of being aberrations. I've mostly played in Eberron settings, but Iirc some homebrews I've heard/read also bring especially powerful aberrations from the Far Realms, making them extraplanar as well. If they're only ever from the Prime Material plane in your DM's world, then I guess it wouldn't work for you.

EDIT: Oh I found it:


Extraplanar Subtype

A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

Ok, that's where I remembered the subtype being so flexible. By the time you have Gate, your fights are often interplanar anyway, often not on your native plane.

Re-reading it, it has some interesting implications. So technically monsters who want to avoid being pulled by Gate could hide in transitive planes where they lose their "extraplanar" type, regardless of where they are called from.

[tyckspoon]

I thank you for your input, but I am looking for just base creatures, no shenanigans like a solar with 1000 templates stacked on top of it since LA does not affect hd so it's technically legal kind of shenanigans.

No unique beings because unless your DM is a complete nut there is no way Asmodeus would willingly walk through the gate to help you in your time of need out of the goodness of his heart and then go back.

So base creatures only who have the extraplanar tag in their stat block. That's what I'm looking for and even after perusing a lot of epic monsters all I got is the Solar.

There's the Primal elementals, which make passable beatsticks if you can get your caster level high enough to control them. Outside of that, Planar Dragons are a decent option, or if you can make a mild exception on 'must be base creature' the Epic dragons with a planar template (Celestial/Fiendish/Anarchic/Axiomatic or the elemental equivalents) are also good.

[Anthrowhale]

The Elder Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm) is pretty impressive if you can manage the caster level requirement.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't think any of these are as powerful as a solar, but some options to look at:

Prismatic golem
Greater shadesteel golem
Chronotryn - only 12th-level casting, but also dual actions and 3/day time stop.
Black ethergaunt
Great wyrm planar dragons - regrettably, no sorcerer casting. Great wyrm gloom dragons (Dragon #344) have blasphemy at CL 44, but 1/day.

[DarkSoul]

One of the later Wormfood articles in Dragon magazine was dedicated to unique beings the PCs could gate in. I'll have to dig out the article but I specifically remember a solar with class levels being one of the options. That's what I consider a unique being IMC; something advanced beyond the norm for its race or type but not necessarily something already printed.

I would say that, like many things at that level, the gate caster should sit down with the DM and see what each of them think is appropriate.

[CIDE]

Abominations cannot be gated because they have divine rank 0, and before I knew this rule they were my go-to gate outsider.

So... which extraplanar creature is the strongest Gated monsters? Solar? Even in Epic?

It may have just been a houserule that got stuck with me but I thought that Divine rank 0 and demigods didn't count as "deities" (which gate specifies)? The abomination type also isn't explicitly stated to be divine rank 0. It shares aspects of it but it also makes some changes.

[DarkSoul]

I would appreciate the article greatly. My DM does not allow dragon magazine but he does use it as a valid source of ruling-proof.Dragon #343, page 72. They give an example for each non-evil alignment, and those examples are:



Titan barbarian 6
28 HD advanced elder fire elemental
Mature adult celestial brass dragon
Solar ranger 5
16 HD advanced zelekhut fighter 10
Couatl monk 16




The abomination type also isn't explicitly stated to be divine rank 0.Yes it is. Epic Level Handbook page 157 sidebar, at the bottom of the page under "Abomination Traits".

[Anthrowhale]

Yeah the Elder Titan and the Primal Elementals were the only ones I could find but their hd is too high for pre-epic without doing some kind of circle magic shenanigan.

There are a few other options as well. A cleric could do it via Consumptive Field + Greater Consumptive Field. A Theurgic Specialist (Dragon #325, yes I know you can't use) can also hit a sufficient caster level.

An odds-and-ends setting-independent approach to caster level 45 was used in ExFighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?265730-The-ExFighter) (first spoiler).

[Feantar]

On the what is extraplanar argument (To the setting's Prime Material Plane), most things are. Unless a type of creature is somehow completely barred from traveling and procreating outside the Prime Material, then there are extraplanar instances of it.

Oh and if you want to make absolutely everything extraplanar, just cast gate inside your demiplane. Every creature is extraplanar in respects to it. If you wish to summon something or someone specifically from the prime, just cast gate in another plane in general. Extraplanar refers to the plane you're currently on, not the prime material specifically*.

*Which is why you can be banished back to the prime through the banishment spell.

[Doctor Awkward]

Yeah the Elder Titan and the Primal Elementals were the only ones I could find but their hd is too high for pre-epic without doing some kind of circle magic shenanigan.



Wizard 17
+1 Orange Ioun Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones)
+1 Create Magic Tattoo spell (Spell Compendium)
+1 Ring of Arcane Might (MIC)
+1 Robe of Arcane Might, Conjuration (MIC)
+1 from Death Knell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathKnell.htm)
+4 from a Karma bead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads) from the Strand of Prayer Beads
+10 from using Limited Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm) to emulate the Consumptive Field spell.

This will get you a total caster level to 36, which is more than enough to Gate in the Elder Titan.

[Oblivionsmurf]

What about the Klurichir, from Fiend Folio (page 48)? More of a lateral choice than a straight upgrade, but see below:


Melee wise, it will perform about the same (or slightly worse than the solar).

Doesn't have Wish, but does have 3/day Destruction, Enervation, Fire Storm, Implosion, and Slay Living

Can automatically summon 2 Balors per day

[DarkSoul]

NICE! I rather gate in these guys than solars because Gating in the Klurichir is effectively gating in two Balors as well! Three implosions at once anyone?Keep in mind that the Klurichir is mostly 3.0, and desperately needs some more updating. For something that gives balors nightmares (according to the description), it's got the same HD and 80(!) less hit points than a 3.5 Balor, but is supposedly 5 CR higher?

It probably needs another 10-15 HD at least, and maybe a few epic feats before it's really as terrifying as the author wanted it to be. I might even go with a full 20 more HD so only CL 20+ casters can hope to control one.

[DarkSoul]

Easier than completely rewriting it I suppose. Guess I'll have to do it myself.

[Telonius]

I would not allow a player to summon Asmodeus. You don't summon Asmodeus, he summons you (and makes you think you were the one making the call).

I'd probably allow Mephistopheles, as long as the player trying to pull it of mentions Goethe. :smallbiggrin:

[Efrate]

could you gate in an aspect of asmodaeus, or demogorgon? it's not technically the named creature.

[DarkSoul]

I just checked the magazine. It directly says there that these creatures are Unique beings so this doesn't prove anything. You can only call base creatures with Gate if you want 100% control.It proves that you can bring leveled or advanced monsters with Gate, and I said in my original post they were unique beings.

Take a look at the young adult Force dragon. If you can find one that's extraplanar, that's probably about the upper limit for non-epic casters.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Already found one. Pyroclastic Dragon. It's extraplanar by default and his breath weapon is a 42 DC Save-Or-Die that's not blocked by anything afaik. Death Ward and such won't protect you from it.
Undead creatures and constructs are immune to it, because it allows a Fortitude save and doesn't affect objects. Other than that, it's not a [death] effect, and although arguably inspired by disintegrate, it's not actually based on disintegrate, so proof against transmutation armour doesn't protect either.

[tyckspoon]

I know that. Against those I just call the Rust Dragon. I'm sure there's an anti-undead dragon somewhere too. 42DC is unbeatable! Wow!

Most undead can be brute-forced to death with an adequately beefy dragon without too much trouble. I did take a brief wander to see if there was a dragon whose breath counted as sunlight or had similar specific anti-undead properties (like Wall of Flame doing double damage against undead), but the best candidate I could find (the Radiant Dragon, which is the Seven Heavens' native planar dragon) just does raw Force damage. Which is, admittedly, a pretty good all-purpose breath weapon if you just need something beat up.

[Gusmo]

Out of curiosity, how do people handle it when someone gates in a dragon or solar? In the Monster Manual, no statted dragons are given, so if someone says "I gate in a great wyrm gold dragon," if you let it happen, there's no sample monster to give them, you need to make yourself a 41 HD creature for the occasion. At least you're given a sample solar, but is every solar that you'll ever call really going to have that exact same list of spells prepared, feat selection, etc?