Paladin 17/3 Warlock for GWM- worth it?

[Benny89]

Just to make grab Pact of Blade and have full bonus from charisma. And Vengeance paladin with curse for crit fishing.

Would you make Paladin for PAM or GWM only for 2h sword?

Now question- is it worth it and when to multi to warlock?

[JNAProductions]

Just a note-you still need a good Strength to wear Heavy Armor without penalty, or be a Dwarf.

[Corran]

It's hard to say, as it depends on a lot of things.
How important would the addition of a good ranged attack be?
Does your GM hand out magic items? If you get your hands on a str-boosting item you could then focus on bumping cha instead of str with your ASI's (after you grab the feats you want that is).
Multiclassing upsets the power curve, meaning that you wil be better at some levels than a singleclass paly, worse at others. While I could live without the capstone of a vengeance paly, the aura improvements at level 18 are a big loss (and a end build perspective aside, you delay other important things along the way). Does having a good ranged attack make up for it? Maybe. Maybe not as you are already very mobile with misty step, haste and a mount.

Basically, what you gain out of this dip is the spell shield (which is nice but loses some steam since you are not using a shield for max AC), a ranged attack (the need for one is slightly mitigated because vengeance palys can be mobile through some of their spells and features - though repelling blast can be quite good, but it competes with very good at-will damage so assuming you can reach an enemy in a given turn, there is very big opportunity cost when you are using a repelling EB instead of just attacking), and hex warrior which basically translates to one free ASI (assuming items that boost str are unavailable). Everything else the warlock levels give you, you can easily live without.

I would probably avoid grabbing 3 whole warlock levels (as vengeance paladins profit less than any other oath from charisma). Maybe only 2 (for repelling blast)? Still very unsure about it. If I were to grab any warlock levels at all though, I would definitely wait at least until level 9, so I can grab haste and the rest 3rd level paladin spells without delay.
ps: If it's not already in your plans, resilient con is a feat I would strongly recommend for a vengeance paladin.

[Pex]

Important question. Does your DM allow great weapon style to work on smite damage? It does not break the game if yes. Some DMs say yes. Others say no. If yes you do not need great weapon master for damage. You will do plenty. Even if no I'm hesitant to take great weapon master for a paladin. You damage a lot already with smites, and you need to hit to do it. The 10 damage is nice, but even with Vengeance paladin you may want to smite those who are not your challenged foe.

Pole Arm Master is a different story. The bonus attack is important for another chance to smite. You could smite three times for a supernova, but the important thing is the extra attack in a round for smiting to compensate for potential misses. It's not a bad idea.

Neither of those have anything to do with warlock. Multiclassing warlock is its own thing. Hexblade is fine to focus on CH. Agonizing Eldritch Blast is for a range attack which paladins lack. You can't smite at a range anyway, so when you need it you have something meaningful to contribute.

What it comes down to is your mood and taste. You are not screwed over using great weapon master or not, pole arm master or not, multiclassing warlock or not. You have to make your choices and not get worked up on the choices you didn't make. The bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

[Benny89]

What I am looking for is to optimize my melee strength as Vengeance Paladin. I don' want to multi too much as I want to roleplay mainly "paladin" but I am looking for something to maximize the melee side of my paladin (Attacks, Smites, Damage) vs utility side.

That is why I was thinking about 3 Warlock levels for: Maxing CHA for damage and rolls, ignoring strength. But that would require (to not miss strength that much) a lot time to wait and sufferin the meantime downside of having low STR. It also gives me: Shield, Eldricht Blast + some.

And it gives even better combo vs single target boss (the bread of butter of Vengeance Paladin):

Vow of Enmity + Hexblade Curse = Advantage for 10 rounds vs enemy (+ free extra attack on level 15 Pala), 19-20 Crit Chance, extra damage on attacks equal to proficiency bonus.

And I get superb CHA so Aura + hit + damage on attack rolls. I could wear Half Plate with 14 DEX for 17 AC (1 less that full Plate) and dump Strength.

At first I could use Rapier with Shield till I get Hexblade 3 to switch to Polearms for Greatsword.


However the problem is Hexblade gets Two-handed weapons on 3rd level. So I would probably need to get Pala to 6 (to get all important stuff like extra attack, more slots, Aura) and then go 3 levels Hexblade.

But then I would suffer in first 3 levels from low Attack and damage and only on level 9 I would be able to finally use my CHA fully.

So here is the thing: it seems good when you have all the levels, but is it worth getting there and how to get there rather smoothly.

On the other hand I was thinking about Pala 6/14 Sorc but then I think I would be better maybe as Devotion pala since I will miss important stuff from Veng but Devotion Sacred Sacred Weapon would do good. However again- before I really get the all important stuff (sorc points to use Quickened Spells enough, higher magic spells 3+ level to reall feel like I have something and higher slots for max smites) It will probably be quite late game and I wonder if I didn't have better time going just full paladin....

[Pex]

Play variant human to get the feat you want, great weapon master or pole arm master. Have a high strength. You can have 18 ST 16 CH at level 4. Go 6 levels in paladin. Think about how you felt playing the character for those 6 levels. Are you happy as is to continue on in paladin? Do you find you lack something that's hurting your play? Does multiclassing fix it?

It's fine to optimize your character but don't agonize over it. Don't sweat it trying to get that one or two more points of damage. Optimize for fun and effectiveness, not the highest numbers that could possibly exist.

[Corran]

If you want to maximize your dpr, singleclass paladin is the way to do it. Up until level 15 you get things that add to your dpr, at level 16 you get your last str-bump (or charisma bump if you have an item that boosts str) so that is hard to pass, at level 17 you get 5th level spell so that's hard to pass too, and at level 18 you get the aura improvements. And frankly, if you reached 15 levels with a singleclass paladin, then it is pretty much going up to level 18 for the aura improvements even if there was not anything else useful at levels 16 & 17 (which is not true anyway). I guess you could dip to levels into another class at that point (since you are only missing on one last feat and on the capstone), but that's a difficult choice as well. Multiclassing does not help a vengeance paladin's dpr IMO, the best it can hope to do is to possibly make the build a little more rounded (at the expense of dpr). If you want good dpr, singleclass vengeance all the way up to level 15 (16 if there are no available str-boosting items), and if you are all that way in, then it's a no-brainer to go at least up to level 18.

Gladius Legis' guide (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?474035-GUIDE-My-Word-Is-My-Sword-The-Paladin-Guide/page2) has a sample build (second page, under the builds and combos section, build IV) that pretty much sums up my thoughts on how to build a dpr focused vengeance paladin. Check it out. I would probably change the last feat from sentinel to either lucky or a charisma bump, because sentinel overlaps with soul of vengeance (but it boosts your dpr a little and it also might provide some little damage mitigation) so it's not a bad pick per say.