An attempt at buffing Dual Wielding

[fifth_ring]

Apologies in advance, it's going to be a long one.

I'm pretty new to D&D, but I'm really enjoying the creative aspect. It's a blast to have a character concept pop into my head and then dive into the books and see how well I can bring that concept to fruition. Recently, as I've come to understand mechanics a bit better, I looked back at Two Weapon Fighting and found it... underwhelming. A little time on the internet showed me that most players seem to agree. For me, it's not just a problem of damage (I think a dedicated Great Weapon Fighter should be doing more damage) but one of flavor too. The only thing an extra weapon really adds is one extra swing if you take the bonus action. Well, I also enjoy mulling over and reworking game mechanics, so I thought I'd try my hand at reworking this one. At this point, I think that the main reason TWF falls behind is that the Dual Wielding feat doesn't add much, while the feats for other style provide significant additions. So I focused my attention there. Now that I have something worked up, I wanted some feedback from some more experienced players. So without further ado, here's my version of the Dual Wielder feat, submitted for peer review.

Dual Wielder

You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light.
You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
If you take the Attack action while wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand, you may take one of the following bonus actions:

Aggressive Parry: Adopt a defensive stance. You gain 1 AC until the start of your next turn. If you are the target of an attack that misses and the attacker is within your range, you may use your reaction to make one attack against your attacker with either hand.
Swift Strike: Make an attack with either hand. You may take an additional bonus action that does not involve making an attack, and is not granted by Dual Wielder.



If you have the Extra Attack feature, you may also take the following bonus action when the above conditions are met:

Whirlwind of Steel: Make one attack with each hand. Do not add ability modifiers to damage for these attacks. These attacks may have different targets or the same target.



The over-arching idea is that, whereas GWF provides more damage per swing and Sword-and-Board provides more AC, TWF provides more options, sitting between the two offensively and defensively, and allowing for more mobility or interesting maneuvers.

Math time (everybody's favorite): I calculated some average and max (because more numbers?) damage numbers for various styles assuming that each fighter had their respective fighting style. For GWF, I assumed a greatsword and added 1.5 avg damage per attack. Only the TWF has their feat taken into account. Damage is calculated with ability mods of +3, +4, and +5.




Damage Dice
Average
Max

Damage Dice
Average
Max


Whirlwind of Steel
Dual Longs/Rapiers



Dual Shorts/Scims




Single attack (uses normal bonus action)
2d8
9+2mod (15,17,19)
16+2mod (22,24,26)

2d6
7+2mod (13,15,17)
12+2mod (18,20,22)


Extra 1
4d8
18+2mod (24,26,28)
32+2mod (38,40,42)

4d6
14+2mod (20,22,24)
24+2mod (30,32,34)


Extra 2
5d8
22.5+3mod (31.5,34.5,37.5)
40+3mod (49,52,55)

5d6
17.5+3mod (26.5,29.5,32.5)
30+3mod (39,42,45)


Extra 3
6d8
27+4mod (39,43,47)
48+4mod (60,64,68)

6d6
21+4mod (33,37,41)
36+4mod (48,52,56)












Swift Strike (should match normal damage)
Dual Longs/Rapiers



Dual Shorts/Scims




Single Attack
2d8
9+2mod (15,17,19)
16+2mod (22,24,26)

2d6
7+2mod (13,15,17)
12+2mod (18,20,22)


Extra 1
3d8
13.5+3mod (22.5,25.5,28.5)
32+3mod (38,40,42)

3d6
10.5+3mod (19.5,22.5,25.5)
18+3mod (27,30,33)


Extra 2
4d8
18+4mod (30,34,38)
24+3mod (48,52,56)

4d6
14+4mod (26,30,34)
24+4mod (36,40,44)


Extra 3
5d8
22.5+5mod (37.5,42.5,47.5)
40+5mod (55,60,65)

5d6
17.5+5mod (32.5,37.5,42.5)
30+5mod (45,50,55)













Greatsword



Sword and Board (Long/Rapier)




Single Attack
2d6
7+1.5+mod (11.5,12.5,13.5)
12+mod (15,16,17)

1d8
4.5+2+mod (9.5,10.5,11.5)
8+2+mod (13,14,15)


Extra 1
4d6
14+3+2mod (23,25,27)
24+2mod (30,32,34)

2d8
9+4+2mod (19,21,23)
16+4+2mod (26,28,30)


Extra 2
6d6
21+4.5+3mod (34.5,37.5,40.5)
36+3mod (45,48,51)

3d8
13.5+6+3mod (28.5,31.5,34.5)
24+6+3mod (39,42,45)


Extra 3
8d6
28+6+4mod (46,50,54)
48+4mod (60,64,68)

4d8
18+8+4mod (38,42,46)
32+8+4mod (52,56,60)



Now I need advice. Is this severely broken? Is it still underwhelming? I only ran numbers for fighters, and I don't have data for polearms (don't really know them very well yet), so am I overlooking something major? What do I need to reword? Is my math off somewhere? Is this too complex? etc.

I've got a few tweaks and additions that I'm considering, two of which come at least partly from Methods and Madness (I'd post a link, but apparently I can't do that yet.)

Whirlwind of Steel - Allowing ability mods when using light weapons could incentivize their use, but could also make d8 weapons irrelevant. If it needs to be nerfed as a whole, could it perhaps leave the player open so the next attack on them has advantage?
Swift Strike - Should there be a spell restriction? If so, I think it would only apply to spells that make a spell attack roll.
Immediate Follow-up: Once per turn, if you miss with an attack, you may use your bonus action to make another attack against the same target with you other hand - Alternately, this could be restricted to a roll of x or lower (5? 10?)
Feint: You may use your bonus action to grant advantage to one melee weapon attack roll this turn.
You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand. - This could be added in or potentially replace the flat +1 AC bonus.


Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[Kane0]

I too have tackled this (here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?555697-Houserules-and-homebrew), between Lalliman and myself if you're interested).

So if I may:
- First bullet point provides you half the benefit of a shield, not so much giving TWF it's own thing to do as mimicking another combat style. I'd actually get rid of it in favor of the other things you have here
- Second bullet point provides an average +1 damage, the sort of bonus a fighting style provides rather than a feat. As such that's where i'd put this feature
- Third bullet point shores up a small but notable flaw in the TWF style, a good bullet point for a feat
- Aggressive parry hits on a similar niche that I considered for TWF: opportunity attacks. I do like this approach, as it's something useful that TWF can bring to the table and isn't just done better by other styles. I just give blanket 'both weapons on reaction attack' bullet point
- Swift Strike is a roundabout way of also doing what I considered: decoupling your off hand from your bonus action. 5e likes things to be streamlined, handing out extra actions is generally against 5e 'policy'. I just move the BA attack to the attack action with a 'once per turn' clause in case of action surge and the like.
- Whirlwind of steel: something that has always annoyed me about TWF is the stripping of Mod-to-damage. I've always seen this as clunky and unnecessary, especially when you look at the other style feats, PAM and GWF and other means of getting bonus action attacks like monks and rangers. If you make the feat free up the bonus action and make all TWF add stat to damage by default I believe that makes it worthwhile on its own, the reaction attack bullet point is what makes it feel unique without making it too powerful in terms of raw numbers.

Also as a side note, I generally see the versatile weapon + free hand as the 'lots of options' style

Hope this helps!

[Potato_Priest]

Good job on the wording of swift strike. My first thought when i read that was "heh heh, you could dual wield quarterstaffs with PAM" but you made sure that wasn't an option.

[fifth_ring]

Hey. Thanks for the feedback. I like the simplicity of your feat. One of my biggest fears with this is that I've added way too much and just kind of muddied the whole thing. That said, some of it doesn't quite fit with what I'm trying to do here.


- First bullet point provides you half the benefit of a shield,That's why I kind of like it. As someone with martial arts experience, I know that just by holding another piece of steel or even a stick, blocking is significantly easier. (Provided you have the coordination to actually make use of it.) A previous version removed this and had Aggressive Parry grant +2 AC, basically turning a sword into a shield for that time.


- Second bullet point provides an average +1 damage, the sort of bonus a fighting style provides rather than a feat. As such that's where i'd put this featureThat's not a bad idea. I guess it just comes down to whether I'm DMing (in which case I would change the style) or not (might be easier to convince a DM to change just a feat rather than a feat and a style.) For the previous point, I could potentially do that with the AC bonus as well.


- Third bullet point shores up a small but notable flaw in the TWF style, a good bullet point for a featI agree, I just wish it didn't need to be said. If you're fighting with two weapons and you can't draw them either simultaneously or one immediately after the other, you've got some big problems.


- Aggressive parry hits on a similar niche that I considered for TWF: opportunity attacks. I do like this approach, as it's something useful that TWF can bring to the table and isn't just done better by other styles. I just give blanket 'both weapons on reaction attack' bullet pointI like that idea too. Even better, both of these provide different enough uses for that time that they both fit pretty well into my "options" idea. After I posted, I started thinking about adding a small amount movement before checking for "in range" which would allow for retaliation against nearby ranged attackers. Any thoughts on that?


- Swift Strike is a roundabout way of also doing what I considered: decoupling your off hand from your bonus action. 5e likes things to be streamlined, handing out extra actions is generally against 5e 'policy'. I just move the BA attack to the attack action with a 'once per turn' clause in case of action surge and the like.Yeah, this is actually the one I want to streamline the most. It feels clunky, but I wanted to avoid just adding another strike on top of extra attack, especially with the threat of someone Whirlwinding for 7 attacks without haste or action surge.


- Whirlwind of steel: something that has always annoyed me about TWF is the stripping of Mod-to-damage. I've always seen this as clunky and unnecessary, especially when you look at the other style feats, PAM and GWF and other means of getting bonus action attacks like monks and rangers. If you make the feat free up the bonus action and make all TWF add stat to damage by default I believe that makes it worthwhile on its own, the reaction attack bullet point is what makes it feel unique without making it too powerful in terms of raw numbers.I'm not a fan either, but adding the mods back in causes dual wielding to consistently out-DPR the greatsword, and the gap just widens when we start adding on-hits like hex and rage. At this point, I think it's a necessary evil if I intend to add another strike.


Also as a side note, I generally see the versatile weapon + free hand as the 'lots of options' styleMuch as I like using my free hand when fighting with a single weapon, (it can be veryeffective when you know what you're doing) my experience has shown me that if you know how, wielding two weapons is a very potent and versatile method of fighting. (Perhaps even more so than a free hand. After all, you can't block a sword with just your hand, but then you can't really grab with just a sword either so...)

[fifth_ring]

Thanks, Potato_Priest. I don't remember what ability caused me to shift that wording around, but in an earlier version, you would have been able to do that. And some other similar things.

[Kane0]

For your feat specifically, you're definitely packing it with too much. Two or three bullets is the standard, one of which being more ribbon than feature.

What I'd narrow it down to:
- Larger-than-light weapons OR draw/stow two weapons
- Bonus action +2 AC, attacks that miss you within your reach provoke opportunity attack (either hand). Maybe also write in some sort of tradeoff like halving your speed when you do this.
- When using Attack action you can make off hand attack as part of it instead of as a Bonus Action (once per turn)

Makes the feat a lot less busy.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm no expert on 5E, but what about:

"Whenever X makes an attack with their on hand they can make an attack with their off hand. Each offhand attack has to be against a different target."

So if you make four attacks base you could make eight if you were completely surrounded, but only five if you are near two opponents. It gives the two weapon fighting character a different approach, being at-will area of effect and having a high risk to reward ratio.

[Kane0]

Remember you can move between attacks, see Hunter Ranger Whirlwind discussions.

Edit: Also a lot of variance between classes to account for. A fighter could have up to 8 attacks not including Haste whereas Rogues are forever stuck at 1 attack. Then there are on-hit riders such as Divine Smite and Hunter's Mark.

[Man_Over_Game]

It's a nice idea, but isn't it a bit much for a single feat?

------------------------------------------------------------------

I've done my own fix, making it so that you get a bonus to your AC equal to half of your proficiency (rounded down, minimum 0) when using your Bonus Action for TWF, without requiring any feats or fighting styles. Dual Wielder provides a +1 passive AC, which stacks with my suggestion.

If we just up the damage and number of attacks, it won't be much different than using the GWM options. I've always considered it halfway between using a shield and going two handed weapons, with a balance of defense and attack. The bonus to AC will help a lot of Dex characters feel more comfortable in melee combat, and it doesn't step on the toes of shield users too much, since it requires a regular bonus action use to utilize.

Your changes are really cool, but I think that GWM is tough to compare to, as it's probably better than every other feat in the game. If you compare the original Dual Wielder feat Shield Master instead, there's much less of a power difference.

[Amnoriath]

This is a lot for one feat and is a lot to take in. In reality all you need is to add one ability so that it isn't a different way to get a +1. This over kill.

[Tvtyrant]

Remember you can move between attacks, see Hunter Ranger Whirlwind discussions.

Edit: Also a lot of variance between classes to account for. A fighter could have up to 8 attacks not including Haste whereas Rogues are forever stuck at 1 attack. Then there are on-hit riders such as Divine Smite and Hunter's Mark.

Make it "When you make an attack with your main hand you may immediately make an attack against an adjacent target with your off hand."

GWM also favors Fighters, feats don't have to be equal between classes. If Rogue's need a boost you could have the additional attack also deal SA when appropriate.

[fifth_ring]

I really appreciate all of the feedback. I'm working on cleaning up the feat a bit right now, but also life. Hopefully I'll get back to you all soon with a new and improved version.

[sandmote]

I have a slight issue with the duel welding feat being the problem. Great Weapon Master grants a lot more raw damage than most of the feats for specific weapon types, while dual wielder fits much closer to the rest of them (although several of the feats I'm looking at for this are AU only).

I'd rather grant +1 AC for wielding a weapon in the off hand (that stacks with the feat) and a bit more flexibility for attacking with a second light weapon, probably as an extra attack with the off hand weapon, instead of as a bonus action. Without feats it's half the bonus of the shield, and it's still about half the effect when comparing Duel Wielder with Shield Master. And this way the extra attack doesn't interfere with your action economy.

I think that does more to bring duel wielding in line with sword and board and a two handed weapon.
_____________________________
Trying to respond to the proposed feat (and be more on topic than simply discussing the same subject), I notice that Swift Strike and part of Aggressive Parry are very close to what I want to add to default duel wielding. @fifth_ring you mentioned not wanting to have to convince the DM to change both, so "the attack from duel wielding only uses your bonus action if you ready it," might be a simpler option than changing the feat.

Otherwise, yeah, five (technically six) bullets is bit much for a single feat.

Edit: typos fixed/ and made a bit clearer.

[fifth_ring]

Took me way longer to get back to this than I'd have liked. Hopefully someone will drop back in and take a look.

Here's V2:


You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light.
If you take the Attack action while wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand, you may take one of the following bonus actions:

Aggressive Parry: Adopt a defensive stance. You gain 2 AC until the start of your next turn. If you are the target of an attack that misses and the attacker is within your range, you may use your reaction to make one attack against your attacker with either hand.
Immediate Follow-up: Once per turn, if you miss with an attack, you may attempt another attack with advantage on the same target with your other hand.
Whirlwind of Steel: Make one attack with each hand. These attacks may have different targets or the same target. You receive a penalty to your AC of 2 until the start of your next turn



Still a lot of bullets, but I'm hoping the idea of narrowing it down to 1) Dual wield what you want and 2) take a cooler bonus action makes it at least feel less busy.

Alternate version that I just thought up:


When two-weapon fighting, you may make your offhand attack as part of your Attack action rather than as a bonus action.
If you take the Attack action while wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand, you may take one of the following bonus actions:

Aggressive Parry: Adopt a defensive stance. You gain 2 AC until the start of your next turn. If you are the target of an attack that misses and the attacker is within your range, you may use your reaction to make one attack against your attacker with either hand.
Immediate Follow-up: Once per turn, if you miss with an attack, you may attempt another attack with advantage on the same target with your other hand.
Whirlwind of Steel: Make one attack with each hand. These attacks may have different targets or the same target. You receive a penalty to your AC of 2 until the start of your next turn



No more dual wielding longswords, but the extra action economy may be more worthwhile.

sandmote, I'm not sure what you mean by "the attack from duel wielding only uses your bonus action if you ready it." You mean readying a bonus action as a reaction?

[sandmote]

Immediate Follow-up: Once per turn, if you miss with an attack, you may attempt another attack with advantage on the same target with your other hand. Rest of the list looks okay, but I'm concluding you haven't played a rogue?


sandmote, I'm not sure what you mean by "the attack from duel wielding only uses your bonus action if you ready it." You mean readying a bonus action as a reaction?
I don't entirely recall, but I think I wanted to allow using your offhand to attack as a reaction at any time before the start of your next turn. But instead of having to ready as an action, you could attack and ready (a weaker attack) as a bonus action.

Kane0's idea is probably cleaner abut applying an increase in flexibility when it isn't your turn:


- Aggressive parry hits on a similar niche that I considered for TWF: opportunity attacks. I do like this approach, as it's something useful that TWF can bring to the table and isn't just done better by other styles. I just give blanket 'both weapons on reaction attack' bullet point