What would you do make multi-subclassing fair?

[The Jack]

Many have thought of it, something along the lines of "battlemaster is boring past x level, surely my wise character would get more out of some champion or eldritch knight investment" or something as such. Naturally, for classes like sorcerer, paladin or cleric, it makes little narrative sense to mix subclasses, but for those with more mercurial powers gained from training or intelect, it strikes me as almost a narrativr neccessity. A wizard who strives for a well rounded understanding of multiple schools, pilfering the best options, is a rational wizard.

Of course, subclasses arent balanced for this kind of behaviour, most are quite frontloaded. How would you balance subclasses for this?

[EggKookoo]

What if we stole a rule from 2e Dual Classing? If you multiclass into a subclass of your existing class, you can't make use of any of the original subclass features until you reach a level with new subclass equaling the level you were at when you subclassed.

So you're a Champion at 5th level. You decide to multi into EK. You lose access to any Champion-specific features until you've gained 5 levels of EK.

Too painful?

Note: I'm not advocating this in particular, just throwing it out to see if it has any legs.

[Dungeon-noob]

What if we stole a rule from 2e Dual Classing? If you multiclass into a subclass of your existing class, you can't make use of any of the original subclass features until you reach a level with new subclass equaling the level you were at when you subclassed.

So you're a Champion at 5th level. You decide to multi into EK. You lose access to any Champion-specific features until you've gained 5 levels of EK.

Too painful?

Note: I'm not advocating this in particular, just throwing it out to see if it has any legs.
That specific option is in fact not available, as you can't multiclass into subclasses. You can only take a different base class form your own, and take levels (and subclasses) in that. So EK/BM is RAW impossible, as far as i know.

[EggKookoo]

That specific option is in fact not available, as you can't multiclass into subclasses. You can only take a different base class form your own, and take levels (and subclasses) in that. So EK/BM is RAW impossible, as far as i know.

I was assuming we were homebrewing here.

[Lunali]

The simplest and least likely to cause problems way would be to simply allow multi-classing into the same class, treating them as completely different classes. The downside is very few class features are useful multiple times.

Other solutions would almost certainly have to be tailored to the class as different classes have different divisions of strength to the class and the subclasses.

[Sigreid]

We haven't got that high yet, but my group has agreed that it would be a fair use of an epic boon to buy a subclass feature, with the rule that you have to start at the bottom and work your way up.

[SociopathFriend]

Would it be so bad to simply stack?
For example, 3 levels of Fighter Battlemaster and 3 levels of Fighter Samurai is 6 total levels for Fighter features like Extra Attack but only the first 3 levels of features for each subclass.

[The Jack]

We are. Assumpion is, you take the subclass features when you get to the levels that offer you a subclas feature.

Say i was an abjurer but when i reached 10th level i wanted to take the first (2nd level) benefits from divination, and at 14th level i could take the third (10th level) abjurer perks, the second (6th level) perks from divination or say, the first ( 2nd level) perks of evocation, illusion, necromany or transmutation.

[TurboGhast]

We could also steal mechanics from 4e to implement this. Specifically, multi-subclassing would be accomplished by taking a feat that would give you some of the subclasses' abilities. This would change the problem to making the wide variety of feats required for this endeavor, and balancing them all against existing feats and ASIs.

[bid]

A wizard who strives for a well rounded understanding of multiple schools, pilfering the best options, is a rational wizard.
Pilfering the best is unfair.

Beside the brimstone smell of munchkinism which taints any general solution, some feature exchanges are fair or can be made fair enough by using up a feat.

Still, if the group of consenting adults feels that it will improve the fun, even an unfair trade is acceptable.

[Lunali]

Would it be so bad to simply stack?
For example, 3 levels of Fighter Battlemaster and 3 levels of Fighter Samurai is 6 total levels for Fighter features like Extra Attack but only the first 3 levels of features for each subclass.

The problem is that the third level features tend to be significantly stronger than the subsequent ones.

[SociopathFriend]

The problem is that the third level features tend to be significantly stronger than the subsequent ones.

Isn't that because the subsequent ones are typically about building onto that third level feature? Of course they're weaker- but that also means the feature won't be as useful compared to how good it would be if you didn't multi-subclass.

[Foxhound438]

Many have thought of it, something along the lines of "battlemaster is boring past x level, surely my wise character would get more out of some champion or eldritch knight investment" or something as such.

that's kind of the cost-benefit analysis you're supposed to be making? some subclasses give a HUUUUUUUUUUUGE power spike right away and then crumbs later (battlemaster giving most of the dice and the best maneuvers you'll ever have right away), while others give kind of even power bumps throughout the level spread (eldritch knight getting new spells that keep their spellcasting utility proportionally growing with their attacks), and others start off weak with a huge payoff at the very end (champion's fast healing). Splicing together the strong aspects of each would undoubtedly make a way overpowered character.

But, if what you mean is to break of from "fighter eldritch knight" after getting to say level 8 and taking some levels of "fighter battlemaster", that's could be fine... if not for the redundant core abilities; I don't see a world where you don't just get to fighter 5 in one subclass and then take 2 levels of every other fighter for seven uses of action surge and every fighting style, so you'd almost have to come up with a whole separate system to do it right. Rogue would also probably be really hard to do without ruling that sneak attack multiclasses stack like they do in pathfinder, or else you'll have someone take level 1 every time for more sneak attack dice. You can argue that that's a slippery slope fallacy, and it is, but I'm just pointing out that you'd have to account for these things.

[cyberfunkr]

Two thoughts on all of this:

One, you use the term "fair" but what you're really asking for is how to game the system. There are reasons to not allow gaining two sub-classes from the same class. So trying to create a way to allow you to pick the best from two sub-classes is kinda munchkinism.

That said, two, I don't think there is a way to make it "fair" as classes gain their archetypes at different levels. Most gain them at level 3, but some like the cleric get powers from level 1 (extra domain spells and features). So I take Cleric of Light, of War, and of Forge. Three levels of Cleric, which are all spell casters so I don't lose out on the number of spells I can cast per level (4 1st and 2 2nd), but with +6 other spell prepared at all times (on top of whatever number of spells a cleric can normally prepare) along with armor proficiencies, an extra attack, warding flare, and blessing of the forge giving +1 to our weapons.

Now take a second level in each of those to get 3 different Channel Divinity abilities. Go to 6th level in each and you have Soul of the Forge, Improved Warding Flare, and War God's Blessing. Now take one those sub-classes to eight (so 6-level + 6-level + 8-level) and you also get Divine Strike or Potent Spellcasting.

Now because you've taken 20 levels in Cleric you would still have Destroy Undead (CR 4), 3 Channel Divinities, and all the ASIs.

I don't see this as a "fair" thing

[Kane0]

If you hit a level you would gain a subclass feature you can choose the one you get from your subclass or one from another subclass as if you were half the level (in that class). For example if you pick a subclass at 3 and then at level 6 you want the level 3 feature of another subclass that's fine, but to get the level 10 subclass feature of another subclass you would need to wait until level 20.

[intregus]

Two thoughts on all of this:

One, you use the term "fair" but what you're really asking for is how to game the system. There are reasons to not allow gaining two sub-classes from the same class. So trying to create a way to allow you to pick the best from two sub-classes is kinda munchkinism.

That said, two, I don't think there is a way to make it "fair" as classes gain their archetypes at different levels. Most gain them at level 3, but some like the cleric get powers from level 1 (extra domain spells and features). So I take Cleric of Light, of War, and of Forge. Three levels of Cleric, which are all spell casters so I don't lose out on the number of spells I can cast per level (4 1st and 2 2nd), but with +6 other spell prepared at all times (on top of whatever number of spells a cleric can normally prepare) along with armor proficiencies, an extra attack, warding flare, and blessing of the forge giving +1 to our weapons.

Now take a second level in each of those to get 3 different Channel Divinity abilities. Go to 6th level in each and you have Soul of the Forge, Improved Warding Flare, and War God's Blessing. Now take one those sub-classes to eight (so 6-level + 6-level + 8-level) and you also get Divine Strike or Potent Spellcasting.

Now because you've taken 20 levels in Cleric you would still have Destroy Undead (CR 4), 3 Channel Divinities, and all the ASIs.

I don't see this as a "fair" thing

Just playing devils advocate but wouldn't you only know level 4 spells? At that high of a level I think you might be less powerful then just going cleric to 20.

[Arkhios]

I would say that we could take a look at the Martial Adept and Magic Initiate feats, and alter them a little to make able to be taken multiple times.

For Example, Martial Adept gives you the same basic rules for Combat Superiority and Maneuvers as is also described for the Battle Master, with the exception that you get only two maneuvers and one superiority die which is a d6 rather than a d8. The feat does, however, stack with the Battle Master's feature in a way, by adding the two maneuvers from the feat, and one more use of Combat Superiority dice, while otherwise functioning normally.

Likewise, Magic Initiate gives you same basic rules for Spellcasting even if you're not a spellcaster by your actual class. And if you are, the cantrips and the spell you learn are added to whatever you had earlier (although they still use the ability as appropriate for the class you chose the cantrips and spell from; and if the class chosen for MI was different than your own, the spell is still only castable by the feat only)

IMHO, we could expand these to let one gain access to more options, gain more expendable uses and maybe even improve them somehow per occasion you chose the feat.

Examples (Wording needs fixing, obviously)

Martial Adept.

You could take it another time and gain two more maneuvers and one more use of the d6 die. Maybe even let the superiority die increase to d8 (but no further).

Magic Initiate.

You could take it another time and gain two more cantrips and one more 1st-level spell. And maybe (just maybe) allow the extra spell "slots" to be used interchangeably in a way. Let's say first time you picked Mage Armor and next time you picked Burning Hands. You might be able to cast either Burning Hands or Mage Armor more than once, by expending the other spell from another Magic Initiate. Just like with Martial Adept (and Battle Master) the superiority dice are kind of like their "spell slots".

Magic Initiate and Martial Arts already cover a huge ground in regards to classes you can emulate with them. Martial Adept is, of course, access to only one fighter sub-class, but Magic Initiate gives access to 6 different classes (bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, and wizard -- and, in a way, two sub-classes (Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight) as well.
I'd say it's possible to create new feats that are similar than other classes' sub-class features, in the same vein with Martial Adept, and I think I've seen someone having done this already.

[Lunali]

Just playing devils advocate but wouldn't you only know level 4 spells? At that high of a level I think you might be less powerful then just going cleric to 20.

The level of spells you know is a cleric class feature, if you treat all subclass levels as cumulative for the main class, you will have all the spells, though you would be short the higher level domain spells.

[Schopy]

Without looking up potential dependencies, but what if you would just separate base classes from their subclasses?

Someone could play a base ranger with the battlemaster subclass and so on. That would allow you to play fighter/battlemaster and then multiclass to anyclass/champion. I can't imagine what that kind of change would do to the overall balance, but it might be a fun experiment. 😁

[Sahe]

I think the most simple and maybe balanced solution is to allow a player to take a Subclass Features from another Subclass of their class instead of a Feat/ASI. They have to adhere to the normal Progression of the Class (so taking lower Level Features first) and have to have the minimum requirement level at which the feature is gained normally. It should also be limited to one additional Subclass.

For example:

A Champion Fighter uses their 4th Level ASI/Feat to take the Eldritch Knight Features gained at 3rd Level (Spellcasting and Bond Weapon or what's it called).

Might be OP? Yeah, but it's relatively simple and is probs not any stronger than some Feats that are available (GWM, PAM, Sentinel, Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert)

Either way, this might create some complications for certain classes, but also roleplaying opportunity. For some classes it may should be banned.

A Warlock making a deal with another patron might piss off their original Patron or Patrons might be unwilling to share power. Warlock however is a class where I would easily allow someone to completely switch their patron with a little bit of roleplaying, like "I feel kinda weird about my Great Old One Patron, please kind Devil can you help me out here" - "Of course child, please sign this 666 page contract in blood, thank you very much". On the other hand, a Warlock with pacts to two patrons might get conflicting instructions and demands from them which could certainly be interesting.

A Sorcerer can't really get another Bloodline...unless maybe they're a halfbreed or where a Sorcerer to begin with and then got into a magical accident? I dunno...this one feels the weirdest.

Depending on your World a Wizard might be looked down upon for "dabbling" so deep in other schools of magic instead of concentrating on their master thesis.

A Cleric might get into real trouble if following two Gods...especially if those two Gods don't align. As a GM depending on what a Cleric did here I would completely take away all their powers if they did this because they pissed off both gods (obviously depending on the Gods). Maybe the Cleric has to devote themselves to one of their Gods in the morning of each day and only have access to those specific powers. I think Cleric is another one where allowing to switch Subclass by devoting themselves to another God is a possibility.

Similarly a Paladin would offer interesting Roleplaying Opportunities with possibly conflicting Oaths. If they break an Oath, they loose all associated powers until they have sought penance.

These are just some ideas. And remember that as a GM, you can generally allow something but disallow specifics if you deem them to powerful or gamebreaking.

[Zanthy1]

What I did for one of my players was allow for mutliclassing within the same class. However I modified it, because I did not allow general class features to stack (like extra attack or action surge). He went Samurai with Champion. So only the sub class specific features he got, in addition to hit points and increased prof bonus and all the norma stuff you get form leveling up. What this did is essentially delay the specific features of his first class, champion, in favor of starting the samurai tree. It turned out nicely because we don't have a lot optimizers, however going forward I would probably add something, maybe an extra ASI or something to make up for the lack of new abilities (cause, once again, only the sub class specific features were gained, the fighter level was treated at Champion Fighter 3 and Samurai Fighter 6, so only got up to the 6th level fighter abilities)

[Damon_Tor]

Naturally, for classes like sorcerer, paladin or cleric, it makes little narrative sense to mix subclasses

It makes the most sense for a Cleric, considering deities usually have more than one domain. A Cleric of Moradin could take both the War and Forge domains for example.

[Pex]

Two thoughts on all of this:

One, you use the term "fair" but what you're really asking for is how to game the system. There are reasons to not allow gaining two sub-classes from the same class. So trying to create a way to allow you to pick the best from two sub-classes is kinda munchkinism.

That said, two, I don't think there is a way to make it "fair" as classes gain their archetypes at different levels. Most gain them at level 3, but some like the cleric get powers from level 1 (extra domain spells and features). So I take Cleric of Light, of War, and of Forge. Three levels of Cleric, which are all spell casters so I don't lose out on the number of spells I can cast per level (4 1st and 2 2nd), but with +6 other spell prepared at all times (on top of whatever number of spells a cleric can normally prepare) along with armor proficiencies, an extra attack, warding flare, and blessing of the forge giving +1 to our weapons.

Now take a second level in each of those to get 3 different Channel Divinity abilities. Go to 6th level in each and you have Soul of the Forge, Improved Warding Flare, and War God's Blessing. Now take one those sub-classes to eight (so 6-level + 6-level + 8-level) and you also get Divine Strike or Potent Spellcasting.

Now because you've taken 20 levels in Cleric you would still have Destroy Undead (CR 4), 3 Channel Divinities, and all the ASIs.

I don't see this as a "fair" thing

Why assume malice when there is none? It's fine to say the idea won't work because of reasons, but why should that mean the OP is trying to "game" the system? Multiclassing archetypes has been thought of before even before 5E for within the respective game system. Maybe it will never work, but it's not as if everyone who thinks of it has read all opinions on it before they even thought of it. Many instances of many ideas are asked about that have been discussed before. Now it's this OP's turn to learn why multiclassing archetypes won't work, presuming it never will.

[The Jack]

I dunno dude.
If you could balance every subclass near perfectly within a class, to the point that someone with 1/1/1 is just as valuable as someone with 3 in one subclass, It'd be great.

From a narrative standpoint, it makes too much sense. Lets say I had a fighter who wanted complete self sufficiency in all scenarios, be he fighting gods and demons or naked and imprisoned; While i could give a battlemaster Magic initiate or ritual casting (or full caster levels) an EK mixed with BM would be a dude covering all bases, which would fit the charactrr

Alternatively, lets say we had someone going for the title of 'worlds greatest wizard'
Can you imagine his anguish when our abjurer discovers he can't do the same things as fools who've only just unlocked second level spells?

Or, as pointed out, can you imagine frustration from a cleric who can only take on one domain of her beloved multifaceted diety?

What about a rogue, who's criminal profession needs the diversification of skills to do the top jobs?

[Damon_Tor]

I could see this being applied on a case-by-case basis for certain classes where it makes sense mechanically and narratively. And yes, I'd tax a feat.

For example, for the cost of a feat I would allow a cleric to gain the first level benefits of a second domain provided that their diety has both domains, and with the understanding that they still just get their normal one or two uses of Channel Divinity.

[Pex]

I could see this being applied on a case-by-case basis for certain classes where it makes sense mechanically and narratively. And yes, I'd tax a feat.

For example, for the cost of a feat I would allow a cleric to gain the first level benefits of a second domain provided that their diety has both domains, and with the understanding that they still just get their normal one or two uses of Channel Divinity.

Out of curiosity, would this include the gaining of martial weapon/heavy armor proficiency?

If yes the following is not applicable.

If not why not? If not what makes it different from choosing the martial weapon/heavy armor proficient domain first then using the feat for the other domain? Does it make a difference which higher level domain abilities is the main one?

[cyberfunkr]

Why assume malice when there is none? It's fine to say the idea won't work because of reasons, but why should that mean the OP is trying to "game" the system? Multiclassing archetypes has been thought of before even before 5E for within the respective game system. Maybe it will never work, but it's not as if everyone who thinks of it has read all opinions on it before they even thought of it. Many instances of many ideas are asked about that have been discussed before. Now it's this OP's turn to learn why multiclassing archetypes won't work, presuming it never will.

I only, as you say, "assume malice", because people GENERALLY use the word "fair" when they really don't like limitations being imposed. As quoted from the Labyrinth:



Sarah: "That's not fair!"
Jareth: "You say that so often, I wonder what your basis for comparison is?"


I'm not saying that it's a bad thing,but just call it what it is.

[Man_Over_Game]

I've been trying to hack out a way to improvise this over the last few years. I've narrowed it down to 2 different solutions:

1: A Feat

Prerequisite: Class level 8 or higher.
When you gain this feat, you specialize in the education of your class even further. You gain all of the benefits of a subclass with which you do not have levels in that has the same class as the prerequisite, up to level 4. You do not gain additional class specific benefits this way, only benefits explicitly listed as part of the subclass.

You can take this feat multiple times. For every time you take this feat for the same prerequisite class, the prerequisite class level is increased by 4. You also choose to improve a subclass further by multiple uses of this feat, which increases the level it improves by each time by 4 levels.

For example, a level 12 Battlemaster Fighter can gain this feat up to two times Fighter class, choosing to have each use towards a separate subclass (I.E. 4 in Champion, 4 in Arcane Archer), or they can use it for 8 levels into a single subclass.

-----------------

2: Level 20 Mythical option

When you hit level 20 in a class, you can choose to take mythic levels of the same class, investing in a new subclass. For every level spent this way, you advance 3 levels into the subclass benefits. However, you ignore all benefits provided by the class features this way.

For example, an level 20 Abjuration Wizard can hit level 21, and choose to spend that level gaining 3 levels into the School of Conjuration. They do not gain any more spell slots, as they ignore any non-subclass Wizard features gained this way.

[Deathtongue]

The easiest way to do it would be just to allow someone to select another subclass for their class and let them gain the features at half (or two-thirds) the rate they're gaining regular levels. So you're a level 14 Champion but have the specific subclass features of a level 7 Battlemaster or Samurai.

[StorytellerHero]

The solution that I came up with are feats that INCREMENTALLY grant the features of the archetype, so that by spending multiple feats, you can "effectively" multiclass in the same class, but not so fast that it becomes unbalanced.

I included these feats in the second section of my multiclass feats book on DMsGuild.

The rest of the feats are feats that combine different aspects and features of classes that one is already multi classed in, to produce new abilities, or alterations to existing abilities.

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/202906/Multiclass-Feats-5th-Edition

[Pex]

I only, as you say, "assume malice", because people GENERALLY use the word "fair" when they really don't like limitations being imposed. As quoted from the Labyrinth:



I'm not saying that it's a bad thing,but just call it what it is.

Not liking a limitation is not inherently a bad thing. It is important to know why it's there and understand the consequences of removing it, but considering is doesn't mean the person considering it has sinister intentions. He may eventually conclude the limitation is the right thing after all and keep it. He may decide he doesn't care about or even like the consequences of removing it for a more fun game. That's what the OP is doing. He's considering it and looking for ways it can be done. If ultimately it would make for a poor game and fixing it, so to speak, just makes things worse so be it. That wouldn't mean asking about it was incorrect thinking.

[greenstone]

...What about a rogue, who's criminal profession needs the diversification of skills to do the top jobs?

In all seriousness, I'd suggest a classless RPG system. GURPS, RuneQuest, FATE Core, Savage Worlds, etc

[Nifft]

If multi-subclassing were legal, then the first step towards making it fair would be to ban it.