High Magic Help

[Mr.Spastic]

I need some help guys.

The next campaign that I will be running is a crazy high magic setting. I was thinking of giving everybody the magic initiate feat at first level. I would also tweak it so if you have spellcasting from the class you picked you would get a spell slot instead of the 1st level spell once per day. Ranger counts as druid, Paladin counts as Cleric, Eldritch Knight & Arcane Trickster counts as wizard.

My question would is, are there any particularly insane combos I should look out for with this?

I am already aware of a few like Monk with shillelagh, Rogue with booming blade, and guidance and minor illusion everywhere, but are there any others? I'm not looking to nerf them, I just want to be ready.

[Unoriginal]

No insane combo, no, but expect the characters in general to be stronger than what you're used to. I mean so many characters who could take Sleep, for one example...


How are you handling the Warlock's spell slots with this houserule, though?


Also expect every damage dealer who doesn't have another magic benefit to have Eldritch Blast.

[Mr.Spastic]

How are you handling the Warlock's spell slots with this houserule, though?

I was planning to not have it apply to warlocks. I didn't specify as it was the only case.

[Unoriginal]

I was planning to not have it apply to warlocks. I didn't specify as it was the only case.

So... you're buffing everyone except the Warlocks?

[Mr.Spastic]

So... you're buffing everyone except the Warlocks?

Changed my mind. They get an extra spell slot too, it just stays at level one. Thanks for pointing that out.

[jiriku]

None of those combos is particularly strong. Magic initiate is a nice feat, but granting it for free isn't going to give anybody something that they couldn't have had on their own by 4th level anyway (or by 1st level playing variant human).

The most difficult thing I can imagine is that several players might take find familiar and you may have to deal with lots of familiars running all over the place. Familiars are versatile tools and if your players are clever they may be able to surprise you with a few tricks. But being surprised by the tricks your players pull is half the fun of being a DM, so that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

[JackPhoenix]

Changed my mind. They get an extra spell slot too, it just stays at level one. Thanks for pointing that out.

So it's now everyone except barbarians, monks, non-AT rogues and non-EK fighters. They still get free feat, but everyone else gets free feat AND extra benefit on top.

[lperkins2]

Just give everyone an extra level 1 spell slot which refreshes on a long rest. And let the MI spell be cast with spell slots, rather than a free once per day.

[Mr.Spastic]

So it's now everyone except barbarians, monks, non-AT rogues and non-EK fighters. They still get free feat, but everyone else gets free feat AND extra benefit on top.

I feel like your being antagonistic. I just made the feat blend with the regular spellcasting class. Their once a day spell becomes a spellslot and they learn the spell. If your a fighter(not EK) the once a day spell will be the only one you know anyways, same with barbarian, monk, and rogue(not Arcane Trickster). Did you think I said they get the once a day spell and a spellslot? Because, that's not what I said at all.

[Mr.Spastic]

Just give everyone an extra level 1 spell slot which refreshes on a long rest. And let the MI spell be cast with spell slots, rather than a free once per day.

That's what I said I did.

[Mr.Spastic]

None of those combos is particularly strong. Magic initiate is a nice feat, but granting it for free isn't going to give anybody something that they couldn't have had on their own by 4th level anyway (or by 1st level playing variant human).

The most difficult thing I can imagine is that several players might take find familiar and you may have to deal with lots of familiars running all over the place. Familiars are versatile tools and if your players are clever they may be able to surprise you with a few tricks. But being surprised by the tricks your players pull is half the fun of being a DM, so that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

Thanks for an actually helpful comment. I'll keep it under consideration.

[JackPhoenix]

I feel like your being antagonistic. I just made the feat blend with the regular spellcasting class. Their once a day spell becomes a spellslot and they learn the spell. If your a fighter(not EK) the once a day spell will be the only one you know anyways, same with barbarian, monk, and rogue(not Arcane Trickster). Did you think I said they get the once a day spell and a spellslot? Because, that's not what I said at all.

You did. "You would get a spell slot instead of the 1th level spell once a day".

If they take the MI for their class, they can already cast the spell from their normal slot + 1 day, but by your wording, you're giving them free spell slot usable with any spell they have. That's a free advantage 1/3rd of classes don't get.

Look at a common MI choice, Find Familiar. It's great spell to have, and you usually don't need to cast it more than once a day, or even every day. For a wizard, it basically mean means one extra Shield or whatever, because he can just get new familiar through ritual casting. It's not broken, but it *is* a buff martials don't have any equivalent of.

For non-casters, there's no change. Casters will get the full benefit of MI and can use the once/day spell as an extra spell slot. It's even better for warlocks: even if the slot doesn't scale, there are many useful level 1 spells that don't need scalling... Shield, again, for hexblades, or Hex are the most common uses.

My suggestion would be to give them free Magic Initiate as it is, and nothing more. Everyone will get the same benefit.

[Unoriginal]

My suggestion would be to give them free Magic Initiate as it is, and nothing more. Everyone will get the same benefit.

That actually solve pretty much all the potential issues.

[Pelle]

The next campaign that I will be running is a crazy high magic setting. I was thinking of giving everybody the magic initiate feat at first level.

There's really no need to change PC rules, practically all the classes are high magic already. Just throw alot of magic into the rest of the setting, and the PCs will fit right in as is anyways...

[Cybren]

That actually solve pretty much all the potential issues.
I don't really think there's problems.

The delta between "can't cast spells and don't know any cantrips" to "can cast a single spell and knows two cantrips" is WAY BIGGER than the delta between "can cast spells and knows some number of cantrips" to "can cast spells another time and knows two extra cantrips". Knowing the extra spell is useful, but it's only more useful in the times where you never cast your magic initiate spell.
On the other hand, I think giving warlocks another short rest slot might be too good. I would be inclined to just give them a 1/day spell slot. In fact, I've actually considered rewording MI to read like:
"Choose a class and spell/cantrips as normal. You learn that spell and may cast it using any spell slots you have"
You gain a 1st level spell slot. If you already have 1st level spell slots, you gain an additional one."

[Unoriginal]

Gaining an additional spell slot you can use for any spell is a huge boon without question. More importantly, it's a bigger boon than what is provided by Magic Initiate usually, and it favors those who already have spells. Which means that if you give MI for free to a Champion and a Bladesinger, the Bladesinger will benefit more from it.

If it's a problem for you is another debate, but personally I would avoid it

[Vogie]

My suggestion would be to give them free Magic Initiate as it is, and nothing more. Everyone will get the same benefit.

This is probably the best. I like the pairing, but I would actually say you can also pick Paladin & Ranger for Magic Initiate, with them getting cleric or druid cantrips (respectively) if those are chosen. That allows them to choose things like Hunter's Mark, Smites, Zephyr Strike, Heroism, and Compelled Duel that normally wouldn't be available to magic initiate.

However, I would keep Find Familiar out of it - Make that available only to those with the Ritual Casting Feat, and normal channels.

Having a murder of crows (or, if they're old-hat min-maxers, a Parliament of Owls) constantly following around the party will be INCREDIBLY aggravating.

EDIT: You could even further limit it by doing Magic initiate based on Spell schools. This would actually benefit the 1/3 casters more, as they're spell-school-type limited by RAW.

That also gives your players the ability to having meaningful choices - Shield or Mage Armor? Expeditious Retreat or Feather fall?

Find Familiar is the Eldritch Blast of 1st level spells.



I am already aware of a few like Monk with shillelagh, Rogue with booming blade, and guidance and minor illusion everywhere, but are there any others? I'm not looking to nerf them, I just want to be ready.

The abundance of cantrips will mean you'll have to make sure you stand firm on a "Cast Guidance First" stance, otherwise you'll get a litany of "Oh, Um, I add guidance to that...?" every time there's a throw.

I wouldn't worry about shillelagh Monks, as they're up there with Hexblade Paladins. It's not that powerful.

You'll also find that some things are going to be easily obliterated - easy access to Goodberry regardless of class, for example, would remove most survival elements that you might want to add to the game.

[Mr.Spastic]

Can I just point out that none of you are actually answering my question. Why are you arguing semantics and balance instead of addressing my concern.

[iTreeby]

Can I just point out that none of you are actually answering my question. Why are you arguing semantics and balance instead of addressing my concern.

You are asking about insane combos and they are trying to identify the high optimization strats, it's basically the same. I don't think anything too broken is going to happen specifically because of giving everyone magic initiate. I think it might be worthwhile to examine your reason for giving everyone magic initiate as opposed to any free feat.

If you are magic the world high magic, that can have more consequences lore wise and socially than mechanically. For example, high elves are less snooty because they are really not much better than anyone else because a third cantrip isn't as good as a first. Everyone having magic also means that people likely have customs regarding magic "no casting at the table". maybe some buildings have a magic room, similar to a privy. Definitely going to be a few "NO MAGIC" signs in the local library or possibly just "NO FIRE MAGIC" signs. If higher level magic is also common there are even more consequences "I heard the king was assassinated again last night, at this rate he's going to raise taxes to pay for his new clones". People would likely talk about exceptionally magical people like the party casters and probably have no reservations asking them for favors or trying to buy their magic or marry of their children ect. And sure, lots of that stuff should already exist in dnd but if you are making this kind of change to the game it can be worthwhile to revisit certain assumptions. Probably still don't use the "guards and wards" house more than once.

[Unoriginal]

Can I just point out that none of you are actually answering my question. Why are you arguing semantics and balance instead of addressing my concern.

I answered your question already (and so did others):



No insane combo, no, but expect the characters in general to be stronger than what you're used to.

Magic Initiate is actually well-balanced, and there is nothing about its by-the-book benefits that is "insane". So the only thing left to discuss is if the modifications you did might lead to unexpected outcomes.

[Mr.Spastic]

I already know the outcomes of my modifications. That's why I made them. The only question I wanted answers to was of there were any specific combinations that could come out of everybody having magic initiate that I should be ready for. So far only one or two dudes has answered that question. The rest of you have been arguing over houserule.

I'll rephrase it here in case you guys got confused some here.

If they have the spellcasting class of the magic initiate class they took(wizards need to take it for wizards, druids for druids, ect...) Then instead of casting the spell once per day, they permanently have the spell prepared and get an extra level 1 spell slot instead.

[Cybren]

Right but what does “insane combo” mean? Analyzing the result of the house rule at a systemic level should illuminate what it could do. Some people seem to think your house rule gives too much power to spellcasters, they’re essentially arguing that the insane combo is “being a wizard” etc. but in terms of “will this break things”? No. No more than giving every PC any other free feat of comparable power.

[Mr.Spastic]

I just want to know if there are any particular cantrips or level 1 spells, that when paired with certain classes, would make for a powerful combination that I should be ready for. The only real answer I got to this was the guy who said I should be aware that several people would probably grab find familiar. That is the type of response I am looking for. Pointing out things that could potentially cause for shenanigans. Being aware that several people would probably go for a familiar is quite helpful because it showed me that there could the party could probably do a lot of reconnaissance before going into any location. This is something that the citizens of my world would probably be aware of. So now I can account for the fact that people aren't as unassuming of random animals as I usually run them.

[iTreeby]

People will have more access to ranged attacks so using cover will be important. This will make mold earth a better pick than normal to provide cover. If your party coordinates cantrips, they may be able to fortify their camp sites more than normal. Shape water could add a mote to the fort.

[Mr.Spastic]

People will have more access to ranged attacks so using cover will be important. This will make mold earth a better pick than normal to provide cover. If your party coordinates cantrips, they may be able to fortify their camp sites more than normal. Shape water could add a mote to the fort.

Thanks for the heads up. By the way, all of your suggestions have been really helpful.

[iTreeby]

Hex is a very good first level spell it will make a significant increase in damaging attack, this will be especially good for any character who makes multiple attacks against one enemy. Fortunately a creature can only be affected by one hex at a time so this will be less powerful than a straight increase in every characters damage in boss fights. You may want to warn your players about stacking debuffs if you see many people picking warlock as their initiate class.