3.5 Cleric archer/spear fighter/too many options to pick from...

[CountMRVHS]

I've got a bad case of indecision going, and have been poring over the books for the past few days. Appreciate any suggestions!

I'm making an Elf Cleric with the following stats rolled (including racial adjustment):

Str 14
Dex 11
Con 14
Int 16 (not optimal I know but I want the knowledge skills)
Wis 17
Cha 11

Elf Domain gets me Point Blank Shot for free; 1st lvl feat can be Precise Shot, and then pick up Zen Archery at lvl 3. (I think I could qualify for Contemplative 1 at lvl 11, at which point I'd take the Knowledge Domain and immediately drop it for Knowledge Devotion, which will help with damage.)

However, there don't seem to be a ton of other archery feats that are drawing my attention. Also, I'll probably end up in melee range anyway, so I figured picking up a spear or several would lend some versatility.

This brought me up to the questions of -

1. What spear or spears would it be good to use? If Shortspear, I was thinking of going the Agile Shield Fighter route (take 2 flaws to get Improved Shield Bash and Shield Specialization, the latter of which will be helpful anyway at early levels; then at lvl 6 be able to TWF with a shortspear and heavy shield at -2/-2 like a pro - plus the shortspear can be thrown, taking advantage of my archery related feats).

On the other hand, I could drop the shield (seems risky?) and use a regular spear. It can still be thrown, meaning PBS, Precise Shot, & Zen Archery still help me when that is relevant. Plus it can be used 2-handed, giving me a bit of a boost from Str (which can be buffed via spells). I could grab Power Attack and... Combat Brute? Requires Improved Sunder, but Momentum Swing might be decent...

Finally, could go Longspear instead. But no shield, no throwing... I'm not sure the reach is worth it. (Short Haft seems neat at first, but couldn't you just take a 5' step?)


2. Assuming I want to go one of the above routes, do I have enough room to not suck as a cleric? Another way of asking this is, Just how important is Divine Metamagic?


3. Other than Contemplative (for at least that first level), are there other prestige classes - or regular classes - that I ought to be looking at? I want a sort of "scholarly, aloof" feel for the character, but I feel like I'm expecting him to cover a lot: some ranged, some melee, and being decent at cleric stuff. Not sure if I'll be able to pull that off.

[Nifft]

If you want all the Knowledge skills, consider the Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) variant. You get (6+Int) skill points, some bonus spells, and a bonus Domain (and it's the Domain which grants you all Knowledge skills).

Some cheeseweasels claim that you can drop the free Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion and yet retain access to all Knowledge skills (even though the text says you get those skills from the Domain).

If you can bully or trick your DM, that gets you another free feat at level 1, and all it costs is a small dark spot on your soul. Hardly noticeable.


Paragnostic Apostle (C.Champ) is another useful class, which you can enter at level 4. You have to tithe gold, but you get more skill points than a base Cleric and a few skill-based casting tricks. It's probably NOT as good as Cloistered Cleric, though -- those 6+Int points are juicy.

[DarkSoul]

What books are allowed? Any special house rules? What type of elf are you?

[CountMRVHS]

I've looked hard at Cloistered Cleric, but I think I'd miss the armor & BAB. I know in the long run it is said to be the optimal choice, but I like the hybrid nature of the standard cleric.

Paragnostic Apostle does look interesting, though! I think a couple levels of that would work well.


As for books, let's see: PHB, PHB 2, Complete Arcane, Complete Warrior, Complete Scoundrel, Complete Adventurer, Heroes of Battle, Frostburn, Unearthed Arcana... I also have access to the softcover 3.0 books (Masters of the Wild, etc.).

Basically, I'm good with anything I can find online, with the possible exception of Tome of Battle.


I'm currently using the PHB Elf version (-2 Con, +2 Dex). I've looked at other variants from UA and Frostburn, but they don't work out much better than what I have above.

[Saintheart]

1. What spear or spears would it be good to use? If Shortspear, I was thinking of going the Agile Shield Fighter route (take 2 flaws to get Improved Shield Bash and Shield Specialization, the latter of which will be helpful anyway at early levels; then at lvl 6 be able to TWF with a shortspear and heavy shield at -2/-2 like a pro - plus the shortspear can be thrown, taking advantage of my archery related feats).

On the other hand, I could drop the shield (seems risky?) and use a regular spear. It can still be thrown, meaning PBS, Precise Shot, & Zen Archery still help me when that is relevant. Plus it can be used 2-handed, giving me a bit of a boost from Str (which can be buffed via spells). I could grab Power Attack and... Combat Brute? Requires Improved Sunder, but Momentum Swing might be decent...

Finally, could go Longspear instead. But no shield, no throwing... I'm not sure the reach is worth it. (Short Haft seems neat at first, but couldn't you just take a 5' step?)

Why not do the hard and soft taco option and get both? If you have the cash, there's the Changeling Spear out of the AEG which allows you switch from shortspear or long with a swift action.

Alternatively, I'm pretty sure there's a magic lance out there that can be wielded as a shortspear one-handed. I'll have a look around and come back when I find it. EDIT: Nah, it was the Thunderlance I was thinking of - lance that can be wielded on foot as a longspear with no penalty, my mistake.

More generally - it depends on what levels you're playing at, but if you're going the Power Attack route you're going to have to wait until you pick up Divine Power around level 7 or 8 before that option is really viable or competes with the party fighter. Power Attack keys off your BAB, which is nowhere near a fighter's until you pick up that spell. It is that spell's existence that makes Divine Metamagic so powerful, because it literally turns you into a fighter all day long if you go Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell).

[Andezzar]

Why not do the hard and soft taco option and get both? If you have the cash, there's the Changeling Spear out of the AEG which allows you switch from shortspear or long with a swift action.The changeling WSA is in the MIC as well, so you do not need 3.0 material.

Have you thought about the Stormlord? It's a straight upgrade from taking more cleric levels and fits the theme I think.

[CountMRVHS]

Right - should've mentioned, I'll be starting at lvl 1.

Changeling Spear looks very cool, though I'll still need to work out feats, whether or not I'll be using a shield, etc.

I think that's the biggest question right now: should I go the 2-handed spear route and gain damage while losing AC, or go shortspear and gain AC while losing out on damage?

*Eventually* (by lvl 3, when I get Zen Archery) I will also be able to be a decent archer, so I will be carrying around a longbow by then for sure.

If I go shortspear + shield, I can have a shield that adds +3 AC at lvl 1 (Shield Specialization), and be TWFing with spear and shield in melee by lvl 6 (Agile Shield Fighter) - without losing that shield AC. Unbuffed damage wouldn't be fantastic (1d6+2 shortspear, 1d4+1 shield), but by that point I'd have some spells to help.

Lvl 1: Point Blank Shot (Elf domain), Precise Shot (lvl 1 feat), Shield Specialization (flaw), Improved Shield Bash (flaw)
3: Zen Archery
6: Agile Shield Fighter

With this setup, I wouldn't be getting Divine Metamagic until lvl 12 at the earliest, 15 if I want Persistent Spell. (I have been toying with the idea of taking Quicken Spell - Divine Metamagic instead to lessen the feat burden.) So, I wonder if Divine Metamagic is truly worth it if I go this route? If I *don't* go DMM, I have been eyeing Shield Charge and possibly Shield Slam, which are relatively easy to qualify for...


On the other hand, if I use a 2-handed spear, overall damage will be better (1d8+3, crit x3), but AC is 3 points lower. AC at lvl 1 would be just 14 (scale mail), as opposed to 17 with the above setup. Early levels would seem rough if I go this route. But Combat Brute (esp. Advancing Blows and Momentum Swing) seem rather good. I could grab Imp. Bull Rush at lvl 1 for a bit of tactics, but maybe that's not such a great feat...

So something like:

Lvl 1: Point Blank Shot (Elf domain), Precise Shot (lvl 1 feat), Power Attack (flaw), Improved Bull Rush
3: Zen Archery
6: Improved Sunder
9: Combat Brute


I dunno. I'm looking to balance A) the desire to contribute tactically in interesting ways in melee B) the desire to also be a decent cleric archer and C) the sense that Divine Metamagic is the be-all end-all of cleric-ing.


Stormlord does look cool, but those are some hefty feat requirements...

I gave Sacred Exorcist (Defenders of the Faith) a look last night and noticed that 1) it allows full cleric spell *and* turning progression, and 2) it grants Extra Turning every 3 levels. Easy to qualify for. If I do go Divine Metamagic, I'd probably want to pick at least 3 levels of this up, just for that Extra Turning.


Edit: note that I never play clerics, so I could be thinking about this all wrong. Maybe the cleric spells themselves are enough so that I won't need to spend so many feats just to get extra damage out of meleeing... is that the case?

[King of Nowhere]

Edit: note that I never play clerics, so I could be thinking about this all wrong. Maybe the cleric spells themselves are enough so that I won't need to spend so many feats just to get extra damage out of meleeing... is that the case?

From a power perspective, a cleric is better off casting spells than using weapons. A fighting cleric is still good, though. Beware that some DM may not allow some tricks, especially persisting stuff.

Personally i'd say if you want to fight in melee, drop the shield and go power attack. It's the only way to deal decent damage. I'd suggest a reach/trip build, but you lack the dexterity for combat reflexes.
Archery just doesn't deal enough damage to be worth it

[Beckett]

I've played a PF Cleric with a Longspear. Improved Init, Power Attack, and Combat Reflexes was great, getting to act quickly to position myself just out of reach, then cast a spell, and rely on AoOs as enemies moved in, or stayed back and didn't attack.

Party tactics are needed to make sure others didn't move in front of you and negate your position, and it didn't work as well against ranged attackers, but Enlarge Person helped a lot for extra Reach. Just make sure it doesnt drop your Dex to negate Combat Reflexes.

Best part, though it is a bit Feat intense, is you can do both, Archer and Reach. Longspear is a simple weapon, abd Reach can sometimes take advantage of some Archery Feats.

[CountMRVHS]

I am open to reallocating stats, and using other Elf variants as needed.

My unadjusted ability rolls were the following:

17
16
16
14
11
9

I've been looking at other Elf variants like crazy, but I don't think I can do much better than the standard Elf (+2 Dex, -2 Con), which can yield this:

14
11
14
16
17
11

Now, that array was made on the assumption that I'd 1) be a cleric archer who takes Zen Archery ASAP; 2) Get Knowledge Devotion early too (Church Inquisitor at lvl 4; swap Inquisition domain for Knowledge Devotion), so Int is important for those Knowledge checks; and 3) also be capable with a trick or 2 for melee, since the most reliable party members are playing a Ranger and a Druid. (Playing with my kids, full disclosure - so the power level is not going to be overly high :) )

I have looked at other variants wherein I end up with 18 Dex (in which case I'd forego Zen Archery) and 7 or 9 Cha, and okish other stats... but often I'm looking at a lower Str or Int or Con than I want.


Assuming I go with the above array, though, one idea that has crossed my mind is the tripping route. I'm not that familiar with how it works. I have considered getting Combat Expertise and Improved Trip at lvl 1, and then using a spear or longspear (can I trip with the longspear from 10' away?). Could pick up Power Attack later, when my BAB is worth dropping for extra damage.

I do like the +3 AC at lvl 1 from the Shield Specialization though...

[bean illus]

Do we assume you're building to 20?
How old are these kids?

This is clunky, and probably beyond hope, but it gets most of your wants by level 9.

I think you may want too much, but if power is not as important as diversity then you could lose a level or two of cleric. 1-3 levels of bonus martial feats would get it.

Defenders of the Faith is 3.0, but if you can use it then do so. Ask your dm which dmm feats are available first.


1. Cloistered Cleric: Precise Shot,
Power attack(flaw), Improved Sunder (flaw),
Point Blank Shot (domain), Weapon Focus (domain), Know Devo (domain)
2. Fighter1: Shield Specialization
3. Cleric2: Improved Shield Bash
4. Cleric3: zone of truth
5. Church Inquisitor1: +1 new domain (inquisition)
6. Ordained Champion1: Quicken/Persistent
*+1 new domain2, Agile Shield Fighter, Zen Archery
8. Church Inquisitor3:
9. Sacred Exorcist1: Divine Metamagic, 4th lvl spells/divine power
11. Sacred Exorcist3: Extra Turning
12. OPEN FEAT

[AnimeTheCat]

If those stats were rolled and you can't edit them beyond where they sit in the order, why not try (Racial Mods added in):

Str 14
Dex 18
Con 15
Int 11
Wis 16
Cha 9

It doesn't seem like you're too reliant on Turn Undead, so the -1 penalty from a low charisma isn't too terrible. This bumps your Dex modifier up a lot, and makes the switch to Cloistered Cleric a lot less threatening to you. Remeber that a Mithral Breastplate is considered Light Armor and has pretty fantastic stats (net +5 AB, +5 Max Dex). The skill points you would have gotten from being a regular cleric with 16 int puts you at 5 skill points per level, a Cloistered Cleric gets 6 base, so you're still getting more skill points than a normal cleric, even with the lower int.

As for Feats, since you have the Dex to support it, why not just pick up the actual two weapon fighting feats? At level 1 with 2 faults, you can get Improved Shield Bash, Two Weapon Fighting, and Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. With a chain shirt that's 20 AC and 2 attacks on a full at attack at level 1. Then at subsequent levels you can pick up the improved and greater two weapon fighting feats if you like.

[bean illus]

This is better. Still clunky but better.

Str 14
Dex 18
Con 15
Int 11
Wis 16
Cha 9

1. Cloistered Cleric: Precise Shot,
TWF (flaw), Oversized TWF (flaw),
Point Blank Shot (domain), Weapon Focus (domain), Know Devo (domain)
2. Fighter1: Improved Shield Bash
3. Cleric2: Shield Specialization
4. Cleric3: zone of truth
5. Church Inquisitor1: +1 new domain (inquisition)
6. Church Inquisitor2: Quicken/Persistent
8. Sacred Exorcist1: 4th lvl spells/divine power
9. Ordained Champion1: Divine Metamagic,
+1 new domain2, Power Attack, Improved Sunder
11. Sacred Exorcist3: Extra Turning
12. Improved TWF

Your still split tween Int focus, Dex focus, and Wis focus, but cleric fixes most of that.

And you get to be a elf cleric with a spear, shield, and bow, in full armor. Nice.

If you drop the precise shot and improved sunder you retain 2 open feats. If you went human you get another and +1 skills.

[Anthrowhale]

If you are worried about combat at level 1, Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) is quite effective and seems thematically appropriate. Something like:

Elf Cloistered Cleric 5/Paragnostic Apostle 5/Contemplative 10
Taking:
1. Extend Spell(Domain), PBS (Domain), Persistent Spell, DMM:Persistent Spell(Flaw), Wild Cohort[Riding Dog] (Flaw)
3. Zen Archery
6, 12, 15, 18. Extra Turning.
would be a solid basis to operate around.

The riding dog with a bit of barding is pretty effective at level 1 & 2 while you can use archery or spells in addition.
At level 3, persistent spell starts to kick in usefully while Zen Archery gives you a jump in accuracy.
At higher levels, archery might shift towards spells like Darkfire and Holy Star for which Zen Archery and PBS are both relevant. In addition, you can keep buffing your animal companion with spells to have a solid meatshield potentially augmented by various summons.

[Andezzar]

The riding dog with a bit of barding is pretty effective at level 1 & 2 while you can use archery or spells in addition.Just be aware that the elf cannot ride the dog, it is too small. The riding dog is a straight upgrade to the wolf in combat though.

You may want to look into taking a deinonychus or fleshraker as your cohort.

[DarkSoul]

I had an idea for a Cloistered Cleric/Seeker of the Misty Isle that becomes a pretty mobile archer by around level 7, but add another 5-6 levels on that and it's likely going to overshadow the ranger at least, especially if you don't think they're going to be very optimized.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Just be aware that the elf cannot ride the dog, it is too small. The riding dog is a straight upgrade to the wolf in combat though.

You may want to look into taking a deinonychus or fleshraker as your cohort.

Generally speaking, yes the riding dog is better in combat since generally speaking most encounters at low level don't involve large amounts of movement over large distances. However, when tactical movement is important, the extra speed can matter a lot more than the +2 to AC and damage. With that said, yes. Get a dinosaur.

[CountMRVHS]

Interesting build proposals, thank you very much!

I've been looking at the cleric spells lately (PHB and Spell Compendium), to see what sorts of things spells provide that feats can't, and vice versa.

I *think*, based partly on that look, the feedback here, and more thought -- I think that I may be putting a bit too much emphasis on feats. That is, taking 3 feats to get Agile Shield Fighter (lvl 6 at the absolute earliest) nets me +1 AC and a single shield bash. By the time I can do that, I will be almost able to cast Divine Power, and I'll have lots of buffing options at my disposal.

Feats can be "always on", unlike spells (well, unless I go Persistent DMM... which I don't think I want to do, lest I start hogging the spotlight from the more dedicated warrior types). So lately I have been leaning toward more "generalized" feats that can allow some melee versatility.

Combat Expertise - Improved Trip seems very handy at low levels, but probably will lose its luster as we advance.

Power Attack seems a good bet. Not sure if Cleave is worth it.

Avoiding the shield bash route frees me up quite a bit, so a natural thought is to go for metamagic stuff... like Quicken + DMM, but even that might not be *that* useful ... seems like it'd help a bit with action economy, of course. I'd need some Extra Turning in there for sure.

[bean illus]

I wrote this before i read your new post. It goes along with the ongoing theme of trimming till it works
-------

Why are you an elf cleric, and what's your apparent attachment to the shield / spear combo that isn't really supported by the theme?
Don't get me wrong. I love the picture. But it immediately loses some synergy with the classic elf longbow / longsword.
And as has been said, clerics are really quite effective at a distance with spells, and if you close to less than 30 ft you will be more effective in melee.
-------

Do you have a deity picked? It would be nice to choose bow or spear for WF. I only found one for spear:
Angharradh CG, Spear, Spring/etc ForgotRealm

Long bow has 3:
Shevarash CN, Hatred of Drow, ForgotRealm
Solonar* CG,* wilderness,* FR / GH
Vandria Gilmadrith LN, war and justice, RoW
-------

... your Dex modifier up a lot, and makes the switch to Cloistered Cleric a lot less threatening to you. Remeber that a Mithral Breastplate is considered Light Armor ... a Cloistered Cleric gets 6 base ...

As for Feats, since you have the Dex ... why not just pick ... At level 1 with 2 faults, you can get Improved Shield Bash, Two Weapon Fighting, and Oversized Two Weapon Fighting.
Cloistered doesn't get Shield Proficiency.
------

I removed, Precise Shot and Imp Sunder, ... looks like i lost Zen Archery too.
You have 18 dex, so will be good at archery at early levels, and won't use it much later.

Str 14
Dex 18 (19)
Con 15
Int 11
Wis 16 (19)
Cha 9 (10) +4 eagles splendor =14

1. Cloistered Cleric: Combat Reflexes,
TWF (flaw), Oversized TWF (flaw),
Point Blank Shot (domain), Weapon Focus-LB (domain), Know Devo (domain)
2. Fighter1: Shield Proficiency, Improved Shield Bash
3. Cleric2: Shield Specialization

5. Church Inquisitor1: +1 domain (inquisition)
6. Church Inquisitor2: Quicken Spell
8. Sacred Exorcist1: Turn Undead2
4th lvl spells/divine power
9. Ordained Champion1: Divine Metamagic,
+1 domain2, Power Attack, Imp TWF

11. Contemplative1: Planning Domain (Extend)
12. Extra Turning
15. OPEN
18. OPEN

You get 14 TU a day unbuffed. I'm sure that can get that higher with full gear/buff.
So you can divine power all day, and extend a few others, or push the cha up and persist more.
*****

Let's try one with no archery focus ... if

1. Cloistered Cleric: TWF
Quicken Spell (flaw), DMM-Quicken (flaw),
Weapon Focus-L SWORD (domain), OPEN (domain),
Know Devo (domain)

2. Fighter1: Shield Proficiency, Oversized TWF
3. Cleric2: Combat Reflexes

5. Church Inquisitor1: +1 domain (inquisition)
6. Church Inquisitor2: Shield Specialization -BUCKLER +2
8. Sacred Exorcist1: Turn Undead2
4th lvl spells/divine power
9. Ordained Champion1: Extra Turning
+1 domain2, Power Attack, Imp TWF

Don't forget that extra turning adds 4 to each of your pools.
******

Let's try one with no shield + spear. TWF longsword and DMM quicken, asap.

1. Cloistered Cleric: TWF
Quicken Spell (flaw), DMM-Quicken (flaw),
Weapon Focus-L SWORD (domain), OPEN (domain),
Know Devo (domain)
3. Cleric3: Combat Reflexes

5. Church Inquisitor1: +1 domain (inquisition)
6. Church Inquisitor2: * Oversized TWF
8. Sacred Exorcist1: Turn Undead2
4th lvl spells/divine power
9. Ordained Champion1: Extra Turning
+1 domain2, Power Attack, Imp TWF

*At 1st level you can Quicken 1/day. You don't get another till 8th, but by 9th level you should find a way to get 4/day quicken.

Some more cheeselove. Let me suggest* an ending.

11. Contemplative1: Planning Domain (Extend)

12. Seeker of the misty isle 1-9: Travel Domain, OPEN feat
15. OPEN feat
18. SotMI7: Magic Domain, OPEN feat

This loses only 2 caster levels, but it's classic.

This last one is the best (of mine). It plays well and makes the most of the Ochamp level. It's much more trim, and waste fewer feats.
It never really becomes OP but will kill lotsa bad guys.

There are 3 xtra feats. Extra Turning x4 and a little creative buffing would let you Quicken as many as ...
3+5+16 =24 x2 =48 TU ...
=8+ quicken/day, and several Extends

[RNightstalker]

If you want to do any archer build, the Splitting weapon enchantment (CoR 42) is a must.

[CountMRVHS]

Why are you an elf cleric, and what's your apparent attachment to the shield / spear combo that isn't really supported by the theme?
Don't get me wrong. I love the picture. But it immediately loses some synergy with the classic elf longbow / longsword.
And as has been said, clerics are really quite effective at a distance with spells, and if you close to less than 30 ft you will be more effective in melee.

Yeah, Elf cleric isn't optimal, for sure. I wanted to go cleric, though, and try out the whole "cleric archer" thing I have heard about, and Elf seems to somewhat support that, with the racial weapon proficiency and RP-friendly access to the Elf domain.

Then, looking at archery feats, it seemed that there was some room left over. PBS and Precise Shot could be covered by lvl 1, and Zen Archery (if needed) by lvl 3. With a couple of flaws, it *looked* like I could potentially work in some melee ability.

But now, looking over the spell list, I'm not sure I'll need to try so hard with feats.

Anyway, you make a good point with longsword. Why not just wield a sword in melee, since I get the proficiency for free? 1d8, 19-20x2 and all.

Probably just obstinancy on my part. :P But I also thought that:

-with shortspear, I could use it with a shield *or* throw it as needed, keeping the utility of archer-related feats
-with a spear, I could wield it 2-handed or throw it
-longspear would get the 2-handed damage boost, plus reach

So there seemed to be a bit more versatility with spear weapons than with the longsword.

I guess I was thinking I could carry a few shortspears around if I wanted to spear + board, and/or a regular spear for 2-handed fighting. I'm a bit less sure about committing to longspear, but can also see the advantages.

Regarding deities/domains, really *any* domains are on the table, provided there is at least some thematic connection I can make. So in other words, I'm not constrained by the deity/domain list.


Cloistered Cleric - if I go that route, probably Church Inquisitor would be less appealing, right? (I've been viewing Church Inquisitor as a way for a standard cleric to get Knowledge Devotion, by dropping the Inquisition domain. The CI class abilities don't seem that great, apart from the lvl 1 Detect Evil at will. Not sure that & the Inquisition domain are really worth the slight delay in BAB and other saves.)


Ordained Champion is interesting ... seems like the easiest way to get into it (at lvl 5) is to take the War domain (for Weapon Focus), and then, at OC1 pick another domain (e.g. Knowledge). I do like the OC's BAB and save advancement, but I'm not sure how to work the "Combat Feats" feature, wherein I have to drop 2 domain abilities (not War) to gain 1 fighter bonus feat. The lvl 2 smite ability wouldn't work very well if I'm dumping CHA. lvl 3's Channel Spell seems useful... but I'm not sure losing that level of spellcasting (and having to take the War domain) is worth it.

[DarkSoul]

Elvencraft longbow works just fine for the archer that occasionally finds themselves in melee. I guess I don't get the fascination with the spear when you've mentioned a couple times you wanted to try out a cleric archer.

Also the War domain is absolutely worth taking. Go look up the Holy Warrior feat in Complete Champion.

[Andezzar]

-with shortspear, I could use it with a shield *or* throw it as needed, keeping the utility of archer-related feats
-with a spear, I could wield it 2-handed or throw it
-longspear would get the 2-handed damage boost, plus reachGet a changeling spear as soon as you can afford it and you can have all your other enchantments on all three spear types. You may want to think of adding returning to it if you want to throw it.

For your ranged needs you may consider buying gloves of endless javelins.


Regarding deities/domains, really *any* domains are on the table, provided there is at least some thematic connection I can make. So in other words, I'm not constrained by the deity/domain list.While this is generally fine, it does not work with the Ordained Champion, he has to follow Hextor or Heironeous unless your DM houserules it.


Ordained Champion is interesting ... seems like the easiest way to get into it (at lvl 5) is to take the War domain (for Weapon Focus), and then, at OC1 pick another domain (e.g. Knowledge). I do like the OC's BAB and save advancement, but I'm not sure how to work the "Combat Feats" feature, wherein I have to drop 2 domain abilities (not War) to gain 1 fighter bonus feat. The lvl 2 smite ability wouldn't work very well if I'm dumping CHA. lvl 3's Channel Spell seems useful... but I'm not sure losing that level of spellcasting (and having to take the War domain) is worth it.You cannot pick the knowledge domain as an Ordained Champion. Neither Heironeous nor Hextor offer the knowledge domain.

[bean illus]

You can have pretty much all you want, but how FAST, and what will you need to trade?
It's nice that any domains are up.


lvl 1 Detect Evil at will. Not sure the Inquisition domain is worth the delay in BAB and saves.)


You're a cleric, you don't have a problem with saves. You're a buffing machine.
Your only weak save will be dex, and you have a +4+ dex.
- I address this more below.



Ordained Champion is interesting ...* not sure losing that level of spellcasting ... is worth it


Though the war domain has some good spells to spontaneous, the use of Och here is to accelerate your martial feat chain.

*How Och works ... (in this build):

- Start with 2 domains, (war -weapon focus) and (planning -extend), + (knowledge)
- Gain +1 (inquisition)
- Enter Och and gain +1 (any)
- Trade any 2 domain powers for fighter feats (Keep the spell list).

You now have 5 domain list. You must keep war, and want know devo, so trade inquisition and any, and keep the domain powers of your choice (know devo, extend).

Without this, something gets trimmed, or delayed for 3-6 levels.
--------

* You'll eventually have to decide a path;

- Drop martial focus push entirely.
- Drop archer.
- Drop shield and spear
- Drop DMM
- Drop PA+Com Ref
- Get most of it, but very late.

I propose; Keep DMM, where the 'game breaking' power is at high levels.
- Build to some simple classic synergy.

* I LOVE the picture of an elf cleric in mithral with TWF with PA. But the first goal might be dmm and +Xturning, asap. By the time you hit 9th level feats, +1 to AC won't look like a feat choice.

- You have the option of 2 longswords (weapon focus) and a +2 buckler, no shield bash. But it needs shield proficiency, and that cost either know devo or 1 CL?
- Or +3 shield, with bash (bludgeon!). But WF only on one hand, and it delays longer, and lose the CL/KD.

- I can't see the build without PA and combat reflexes. I don't want to take either too late.

****
Look at the build i proposed. I've trimmed it further. Then ask what you would rather lose, or add, and where.

1. Cloistered Cleric: TWF
Quicken Spell (flaw), DMM-Quicken (flaw),
Weapon Focus- L SWORD (domain), Extend (domain),
Know Devo (domain)
3. Cleric3: Combat Reflexes

- Full CL, good AC, WF-LS, KnDevo, an extra attack, with a scroll of eagles splendor you* quicken 1/day. At 3rd you get 4 AoO.
- Melee +3.5, Ranged +4.5.

This part looks like lots of fun so far.
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4. Church Inquisitor1: +1 domain (inquisition)
6. Seeker of the Misty Isle1: * Oversized TWF, Travel domain
7. 4th lvl spells/divine power
8. Sacred Exorcist1: Turn Undead2
9. Ordained Champion1: Extra Turning
+1 domain2, Power Attack, Imp TWF

- Ch Inq is not crucial. But at will detect evil, immune to charms, and auto will save/ illusion* are all great abilities. You can take 0-3 levels, as you like. Here I've moved to SotMI asap. Travel domain is greatly sought.
- Sacred Ex adds a turn pool and divine power at the same time. You can quicken DP 2x/day+. I would take only 1 level.

- Here you need to decide if you will continue a martial focus. Though CL is supreme, adding PA, ITWF, and ANY domain power or is pretty good to this build. And it frees the rest of the feats for high MM fun.

* At level 9 your first xtra turning. If you can (easy) get Cha 16 .. 3+3+4=10 ×2 =20 TU. That's 4/day. Action economy baby.

* Think of this elven 'prince' glowing with Divine Power, and wielding twin longswords (oversized) slashing PA + KD + AoO + quicken spell.
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11. Contemplative1: OPEN domain (any)
12. SotMI3: OPEN feat
15. OPEN feat
16. SotMI7: Magic Domain
18. OPEN feat

* Contemplative is unneeded.

- Magic domain is 1 of the best, and not the easiest to get.
- Best is 3 OPEN feats. 4 Xturning and some Cha focus nets you 50 TU. Quicken every combat round.
- Lose 'only' 2 CL.

Is this under/overpowered @ your game? Is there something you feel you're missing out on?

* it's true the dm would have to ok Ordained Champion, as well as CI, SE, SotMI, or Contemplative.

[CountMRVHS]

Thank you! A ton here to absorb; I'll need to look at it over the next day or so to really give it the time it deserves.

The power level isn't going to be very high, I think - I'll definitely be the most consciously optimized character, since it's a family game and I'm the only one who spends much time thinking about this stuff. We'll be taking turns DMing, though, and given our inexperience it's possible that we might occasionally face things that are unexpectedly/unintentionally difficult.

My goal is not to rule the table; to a large extent, the kind of tinkering that's going on in this thread *is* the game for me :) That said, I'm not that worried about being "too" OP, since I can have the self-restraint to hold back and let the other players be awesome.