Playing a Cleric as a Mage Knight

[Rowanomicon]

OK, in an upcoming campaign I want to use the Cleric class but have the flavour be that of a spell casting melee combatant.

I'm going to ask my Dm if I can trade Turn Undead for proficiency with all Martial Weapons. I know it's a bad trade for me, but I'm willing to make it.

Now I have some questions though:

What style of melee should I go with? I figure my option are basically sword and board or a two-handed weapon (I certainly don't have the feats available for two-handed fighting).

What feat(s) should I choose? I'll have way less feats than most fighter builds.

Should I dip into the Fighter class for a level or two for BAB, Feats, and HP? Those things are useful to melee, but by are they worth the sacrifice or one, or two, caster levels.

I know there's other Mage Knight type classes out there, but this works for me, and it's Core (all I have available to me right now is the online SRD and any other free online material).

I guess my other option for a Mage Knight would be a Battle Sorcerer (who would probably become an Eldritch Knight).

[Skjaldbakka]

Do you really need all melee weapons? If you can settle on just one, pick a deity with the WAR domain. You get free +1 to hit via Weapon Focus as well.

Also-
battle sorcerer rocks
why give up turning for profs if you are dipping fighter levels?

[Dr. Weasel]

Mimimise your equipment juggling (Sword/Shield/Components/Foci); take Eschew Materials and Two-Hand a Morningstar/Spear/Longsword (obtained through the War Domain if you really need it). Power Attack and Self Buffs will be your buddies.


I guess my other option for a Mage Knight would be a Battle Sorcerer (who would probably become an Eldritch Knight).
The second you prestige class from Battle Sorcerer you lose all of the benefits of the variant. The only two classes you might look at from a Battle Sorcerer-casting build are Abjurant Champion and Spellthief. I may even only be saying Spellthief because I'm rather fond of the class.

[Nerd-o-rama]

You'll want to keep turning for Divine Might and maybe Divine Shield/Armor.

Go with Two-handed weapons. Technically you need a hand free to cast spells with somatic components (unless you take the Somatic Weaponry feat), and it's pretty easy to justify having a hand free when you can just hold a two-handed weapon in your off hand when you're not attacking. Of course, plenty of DMs don't care about needing a hand free. Ask.

Don't dip Fighter unless you're really desperate for All Martial Weapons. Clerics are already better melee fighters than them, thanks to Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) and a zillion other self-buff spells. You want these ASAP and at the highest caster level possible.

[kpenguin]

So... you've never heard of CoDzilla? It's probably for the best.

[Fax Celestis]

Somatic Weaponry would be a good choice for a feat too.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Speaking of self-buffs, I cannot advocate taking Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), as it is for all intents and purposes gamebreaking. However, you should be aware of its existence.

[Skjaldbakka]

The second you prestige class from Battle Sorcerer you lose all of the benefits of the variant.

Really? Why? Do you suddenly lose the ability to cast in light armor, and lose the 3/4 BAB from your caster levels on a gish build?

[OneWinged4ngel]

Somatic Weaponry would be a good choice for a feat too.

Somatic Weaponry: Because we just realized Jozan wasn't a legal character.

Ugh. :smallannoyed:

[Chronos]

For sheer damage output, you can't beat a big ol' two-handed weapon. Especially not with Power Attack (see below). Your AC will be a little bit lower than if you had a shield, but this is counterbalanced by the fact that dead monsters tend to have a steep penalty to their attack rolls.

And for feats, you may not have many, but Power Attack is the only one that's really indispensable. Don't just hit them; hit them hard.

Also, you didn't ask about domains, but in addition to War, other good choices would be Destruction, Strength, or Earth. Destruction gives you a Smite attack once per day, for a ton of bonus damage (extra credit if you can get it multiplied, like from a Spirited Charge or a critical hit). Strength gives you a Feat of Strength, one round of a huge bonus to strength (long enough for a full attack). And Earth eventually gives you access to Stoneskin and Iron Body, both very powerful combat buffs.

[mostlyharmful]

War Domain of a god with a two handed sword solves all your problems and leaves you with the powerful turn undead for devine metamagic and skeleton exploding. Make sure to have your plate inscribed with your holy symbol so all you need to do is face the right way to count as having your devine focus for magic and turning.

[Kurald Galain]

I guess my other option for a Mage Knight would be a Battle Sorcerer (who would probably become an Eldritch Knight).
Battle Sorcerers are a pretty bad deal, because the number of spells they know is abysmal. A bard is probably a better option, and the duskblade (from PHB2) outcasts the battle sorc, and gets some nasty special abilities to boot.

[Zincorium]

Battle Sorcerers are a pretty bad deal, because the number of spells they know is abysmal. A bard is probably a better option, and the duskblade (from PHB2) outcasts the battle sorc, and gets some nasty special abilities to boot.

Duskblade is good, but not just for the spellcasting, it's got a lot of very useful abilities.

Battle sorceror gets a worse rap than it deserves. You lose one spell known of any spell level, with a minimum of one. That's still a hell of a lot better than bard, by the time you're casting 6th level spells off a much smaller list as a bard, the battle sorceror is cranking out the level 8's, and can cast more spells of each level below that as well.

The key advantage of battle sorceror as a gish is that it has higher BAB initially, meaning you can get into prestige classes with full BAB quicker and with fewer levels spent on non-spellcaster classes. A fighter 1/battle sorceror 4 can get into spellsword, it takes a sorceror 4/fighter 2 or sorceror 6/fighter 1 to do the same, and both lose caster levels or BAB compared to the battle sorceror, as well as a loss of prc levels.

[Kurald Galain]

Duskblade is good, but not just for the spellcasting, it's got a lot of very useful abilities.
Yes. By "nasty" I meant "nasty for your enemies" :smallsmile:


Battle sorceror gets a worse rap than it deserves.
Not counting cantrips, a battle sorcerer's amount of spells known does not catch up with a bard's or duskblade's until level 12. I don't know, I've always considered sorcerers horribly limited wrt spells known, and the batsorc is worse. The BS does get more spells per day, easily, but the duskblade has him beat. BS does get the higher level spells earlier, but lacks the DB's BAB, channeling and quicken abilities.

What's the casting progression on a spellsword? I see it asks +4 BAB and 2nd level spells, whereas eldritch knight asks no BAB but 3rd level spells.

[Zincorium]

Yes. By "nasty" I meant "nasty for your enemies" :smallsmile:

Not counting cantrips, a battle sorcerer's amount of spells known does not catch up with a bard's or duskblade's until level 12. I don't know, I've always considered sorcerers horribly limited wrt spells known, and the batsorc is worse. The BS does get more spells per day, easily, but the duskblade has him beat. BS does get the higher level spells earlier, but lacks the DB's BAB, channeling and quicken abilities.

What's the casting progression on a spellsword? I see it asks +4 BAB and 2nd level spells, whereas eldritch knight asks no BAB but 3rd level spells.

You can get scrolls, y'know. A battle sorceror can at least as good if not better use of those than a bard or duskblade for spells that you aren't going to use for your spells known slots.

If quantity is always better than quality, you're never going to want to play a battle sorceror. But I like the higher level spells, faster benefit.

Spellsword is generally a 1 level thing, then go into abjurant champion because you then qualify. Anything else is gonna lose either a caster level or point of BAB on the way, and you're scraping for both as it is.

After than, go for knight phantom if you can swing it, it's a lot better than eldritch knight. And since it's free on WotC's website, it's not as hard as a lot of others.

[Kurald Galain]

After than, go for knight phantom if you can swing it, it's a lot better than eldritch knight.

Oh, that is nice. Yoink! That's going into my gish build.

[Solo]

As clerics can be "devoted to a cause", pick a cause that somehow involves a philosophical devotion to War and get a Weapon Proficiency and Focus for whatever weapon you want.:smallsmile:

[Rowanomicon]

I guess I wont ask for a trade of turning for proficiency.
And I guess I wont dip into any levels of Fighter.

How does prestige classing from a battle sorcerer lose me the befits of the variant?

Of course I've head of CoDzilla. I do not, however, have Complete Divine.
Is Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) and Somatic Weaponry from CoD?
If so I can't use them.

So Power Attack is feat I should take. If that's the only really necessary one I wont be a human, but if there's something else important I will be a human. I haven't decided on the race for this character yet.

War Domain seems to be a no-brainer. What should me other Domain be? Strength, Destruction, Earth?

Phantom Knight is a cool class, but I think I'll stick with the Cleric idea than going with Battle Sorcerer or Phantom Knight.

[Leon]

How does prestige classing from a battle sorcerer lose me the befits of the variant?

Of course I've head of CoDzilla. I do not, however, have Complete Divine.
Is Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) and Somatic Weaponry from CoD?
If so I can't use them.


a) it doesnt
b) Divine Meta Magic is from Complete Divine, Somatic Weapons is from Complete mage and i have no idea where persistant spell is from

[Kurald Galain]

How does prestige classing from a battle sorcerer lose me the befits of the variant?
Because the battle sorc has better hit dice than the eldritch knight.
Also, if you're going into a presclass that has prereqs not covered by the battle sorc, you will have to take a fighter/barb level and don't actually need the battle sorc's BAB or weapon prof.

You don't need somatic weaponry; releasing one hand from a twohanded weapon is a free action.

Aside from Power Attack, Cleave can be nice, as can Shock Trooper.

There are also martial cleric presclasses if you need them.

[Solo]

[QUOTE=Kurald Galain;3216718]Because the battle sorc has better hit dice than the eldritch knight.
/QUOTE]

Other way around, no?

[Zincorium]

[QUOTE=Kurald Galain;3216718]Because the battle sorc has better hit dice than the eldritch knight.
/QUOTE]

Other way around, no?

Battle sorceror = d8

Eldritch knight = d6

So, no, it was the right way around.

[Rowanomicon]

No, Battle Sorcerer (d8) does have a better than HD Eldritch Knight (d6).
I fail to see how that makes battle Sorcerer worse, but EK does need proficiency will all martial weapons. That will cost a Battle Sorcerer (or any other caster class) at least one level that they must dip into a martial class.
It's definitely less than optimized, good thing I decided to stick with Cleric than mess around with all that muck.

Cleave is handy, but how important?
Where is Shock Trooper from?

What PrCs should I be aware of, and where can I find them for free online?

[Toliudar]

No, Battle Sorcerer (d8) does have a better than HD Eldritch Knight (d6).
I fail to see how that makes battle Sorcerer worse, but EK does need proficiency will all martial weapons. That will cost a Battle Sorcerer (or any other caster class) at least one level that they must dip into a martial class.
It's definitely less than optimized, good thing I decided to stick with Cleric than mess around with all that muck.

Cleave is handy, but how important?
Where is Shock Trooper from?

What PrCs should I be aware of, and where can I find them for free online?

I think the battle sorcerer point is that it's already a gish build, nerfing spell selection to get a better hit die and BAB. Taking it to eldritch knight improves the BAB slightly (at the cost of a slightly poorer hit die), but you're still stuck with the smaller spell progression. Whereas a straight sorcerer into Eldritch knight ends up with more spells.

I would classify cleave as relatively unimportant for a gish build. Shock Trooper is from Complete Warrior. It requires improved bull rush, power attack, and a BAB of +6, so may be very feat-intensive for a cleric build.

BTW, for domains, I would suggest War for the martial weapon proficiency and focus, and Travel, for the spells that will get you in and out of the action smoothly. Also, spells like fly and teleport will make a cleric seem more mage-ish, period.

[Rowanomicon]

I don't have CoW, and I doubt my DM will.

I'll look into Domains with special attention given to Strength, Destruction, Earth, and Travel (a they were suggested).

What I'm looking for in a Domain is:
1) Anything that helps with melee
2) Anything that helps with the flavour of a Mage Knight

[Dr. Weasel]

It would be fairly simple to just go with Strength and Magic domains. The prior would give you a slight melee boost, the latter would give ability to use neat arcane items. Travel could replace Strength if you want it (It is a better domain in most respects).

What I meant by "Battle Sorcerers becoming obscelete through Prestige classing" is that in most cases a Gish prestige class will provide armor on its own. Spellsword, Knight Phantom and Bladesinger are the first to come to mind. Abjurant Champion- the standard Fighter/Wizard PrC- also provides defenses in its own way.

So what a Battle Sorcerer is really doing by taking a prestige class is hurting their spells known even further than a normal Sorcerer in order to gain up to 12 Hit Points (six caster levels will usually qualify you for a prestige class). This is an awful deal as spells are far more valuable than 2 HP/level. It can be useful if you're trying to race into a prestige class as quickly as possible or if you're okay with only having a couple spells available.

In Core (the case the OP mentioned), the only prestige class to support a Gish would be Eldrich Knight, which doesn't take Base Attack into account. It only depends on Spell level and weapon proficiencies. This means you'll have to Multiclass and lose the same number of caster levels whether you go normal Sorcerer or Battle Sorcerer. The Battle Sorcerer class alone outdoes Eldrich Knight, by having better hit dice and no lost caster progression.

[greenknight]

I suggest you start your character as a Human Cleric, and multiclass to Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon). You'll lose a caster level, but gain a feat, adaptive learning, a +2 boost to the ability score of your choice (Wisdom), more skill points per level and weapon proficiency with one martial weapon of your choice. And like Prestige classes, Paragon classes don't count for multiclass XP penalties.

For your Domains, I suggest Trickery and Travel. Trickery has one of the best spell lists in the game for a Cleric, and the class ability helps you surprise your foes. Travel is also good for a melee type since it helps you get into melee range.

[Rowanomicon]

For domains I'm liking Strength, Travel, and War. The Smite ability of Destruction is appealing, but...
Trickery is also appealing, but I'm not sure it fits the taste of this character. I think I want to go with a more straight forward combatant than a stealthy trickster. Plus the Granted Power sucks.

Racial Paragon would be good, but it requires me to be human and it cost me a caster level. Is it worth the caster level?
I'm still not sure of race, not sure I want to go human, but not sure what I will go with.

[Solo]

Racial Paragon would be good, but it requires me to be human and it cost me a caster level. Is it worth the caster level?
The first rule of playing a caster is "THOU SHALT NOT GIVE UP CASTER LEVELS!"

[Dr. Weasel]

If you're even considering Travel, take it. It's neat, it's good, it's fun.

Also, listen to Solo. Caster Levels are the best things in the game.

[Rowanomicon]

Yeah, it does seriously slow down my getting better combat buffs and such.
It doesn't surprise me that someone with a black mage avatar would advocate keeping spell levels at all costs. Heheh :P

Anyway, Adaptive learning isn't that good since he's already a caster and combatant, I don't need to spread myself too thin and have him be a skill monkey too.
The bonus feat is nice, and so is the ability boost, heck even the BAB is nice (but it doesn't matter after Divine Power is cast), but is it worth a caster level?

EDIT: OK, so I wont go with taking the Paragon class.
If I'm a Dwarf I'm proficient with a Dwarven Waraxe anyway so I don't need the War domain. Sure I don't have Weapon focus, but I can get that at 3rd level if I really want. I think I'll go with being a dwarf and have the Strength and Travel Domains. Good choice?

EDIT2: Hmm, but that's not two handed... Are there any non LA races out there that have wisdom bonuses?
Should I take the War domain? If so should it replace Strength or Travel (If Strength and Travel were the right choice to begin with)?
If no War domain how do I get my weapon proficiency and what weapon should I use?

[Dr. Weasel]

If I'm a Dwarf I'm proficient with a Dwarven Waraxe anyway so I don't need the War domain.
Actually it becomes a Martial Weapon, so you're not quite proficient.


Hmm, but that's not two handed... Are there any non LA races out there that have wisdom bonuses?
You can wield One-Handed (but not Light) weapons two-handed and gain all the proper bonuses. I think there's an Aasimar variant called the "Lesser Aasimar" in Eberron, but that's definitely not core. I think as a general rule, if a race gets a bonus to a mental stat it either becomes level-adjusted or DMs don't like using it (like the Grey Elf).


If no War domain how do I get my weapon proficiency and what weapon should I use?
The actual weapon you use doesn't actually impact combat too much. A morning star is probably your best bet, but you'll generally have four options:
1:Blow a feat on weapon proficiencies. This one hurts.
2:Blow a level to get weapon proficiencies. This one hurts even more unless you have a way to keep caster levels.
3:Take the War Domain. It's not a whole lot worse than Strength, but this really isn't too fun.
4:Just use a Spear/Heavy Mace/Morning Star. You don't get to be as flashy as describing yourself whipping a sword around, but it works.

Note that all are perfectly viable options and if your party isn't too overpowered, all of them will work perfectly well.

[Rowanomicon]

You bring up a good point. I don't actually gain proficiency with the axe, just treat it as a martial weapon.
So i still need some way to get a martial weapon proficiency.
I think a Greatsword might be a better weapon of choice anyway.
So... Domains?
What weapon and how do I get my proficiency?
What race? I guess it doesn't matter too much in terms of optimization, but I'm looking for suggestion on cool non LA races.

[Dr. Weasel]

If you need sword proficiencies and don't care too much about your race, go Elf with whatever domains you want. Use a longsword two-handed and go to town.

Wood Elf would make you more Strength-ly at the cost of Intelligence if you want that. Wild Elf shifts the Constitution penalty to Intelligence. Both get free sword and bow proficiencies.

[Rowanomicon]

OK, I'm thinking either Wood Elf or Earth Dwarf:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#earthDwarves

If I'm gonna use a one handed weapon in two hand a Dwarven Waraxe is better than a longsword, no?

If I go with Earth Dwarf the Earth Domain would be an obvious flavour mesh, but is it worth sacrificing Strength or Travel.
Still undecided about Domains.

EDIT: Oh, and I talked to my DM, I'm starting at level 3.
That means I have one more feat (my first being Power Attack), what should I go with?

EDIT2: Divine Might and other feats are available through Crystal Keep if they're the ones I should be looking at

[Tor the Fallen]

The first rule of playing a caster is "THOU SHALT NOT GIVE UP CASTER LEVELS!"

He's playing a Gish, though.

[Dr. Weasel]

He's playing a Gish, though.
The primary goal of all gishes is to avoid caster-level loss. Cleric does this on its own.


If I'm gonna use a one handed weapon in two hand a Dwarven Waraxe is better than a longsword, no?
Only if you don't have to blow a feat to use it. Dwarves only need Martial Weapon proficiencies to use Waraxes, but that's still a feat wasted. Elves get longswords for free without blowing a feat. If you just want to do damage and don't care what weapon you use, a morningstar isn't a whole lot less effective than a Dwarven Waraxe (you do one damage less per hit and less on a crit, but you can overcome two kinds of damage reduction) and you won't lose anything.

[Tor the Fallen]

The primary goal of all gishes is to avoid caster-level loss.

In which case, play a ****ing wizard.
Oh wait, not a gish.

[Dr. Weasel]

So you want him to go out of his way to nerf his character even when it fits his concept no better than going straight Cleric?

[Tor the Fallen]

So you want him to go out of his way to nerf his character even when it fits his concept no better than going straight Cleric?

I want him to play commoner 20. All us real gamers play that way, to minimize the roll playing and munchkins.

[Rowanomicon]

So Dwarven Waraxe requires being a dwarf and having the War domain where as longsword simply requires being an elf.

Wood elf get +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int

-2 Int doesn't really matter. I'd rather have +2 Con than +2 Dex as I'll be using heavy armor anyway. Oh well, I can always put a high score in Con and low score in Dex, I guess.

Or I could use a morning star and be whatever race I want. Still not sure on that though.

And still not sure on feat or domain.

Perhaps improved initiative would be a good feat for this guy? Since the most valuable thing a gish has it time to act it might be good to get started as early as possible.
Luckily Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) takes up two feat slots or I'd be tempted to take it. I don't want to be game breaking though. I mean being powerful is nice, but game breaking makes things less fun.

Maybe I'll do War and Strength as Domains. If I end up deciding on taking the War domain I'll be an Earth Dwarf, if not I'll be a Wood Elf.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Remember, War Domain only gives you martial proficiency and weapon focus for the deity's favored weapon: you'd still need to worship a deity with the dwarven waraxe as a favored weapon to get proficiency in it. Unless you're worshipping the concept of "Dwarfness", which would logically have it as a favored weapon...

Or better yet, just worship a War deity with Greatsword or Greataxe as a favored weapon. There are plenty, and they're both better weapons if you're going two-handed anyway.

[Chronos]

In which case, play a ****ing wizard.
Oh wait, not a gish.The point is, an arcane caster has to make some sacrifices to be a decent warrior. A cleric doesn't have to. For starters, he already has heavy armor with no casting failure, and better HD and BAB than most arcane casters. Plus, he has great buff spells like Righteous Might and Divine Power, which make him even more powerful in melee without interfering with any of his magical abilities. So given that the cleric can go full caster, he probably should.

[Dr. Weasel]

I want him to play commoner 20. All us real gamers play that way, to minimize the roll playing and munchkins.
He's asking for optimization advice... there shouldn't be a problem with giving it to him.

Rowanomicon- the best applicable domain is Travel. Beyond that, prioritize as you like. Magic might fit in with your concept, but beside that the other Domains that are "Mage Knight"-y (I'm thinking Destruction, Strength and War just because they're so straight-forward) are pretty much the same. Of those I'd go for Strength, but that's just because I largely play at low levels and Enlarge Person is a nice spell to have. Of course, potions or wands (via the Magic Domain) will work just as well.

Power Attack is a great feat for any tank. It's almost mandatory. Improved Initiative would probably be a better first level feat, though since you don't have any base attack. Take Quicken spell if you're playing over 8th level. Beyond that, it's pretty flexable as none of the other Core feats are all that great for Clerics

[Rowanomicon]

I'm planing on going with straight Cleric, at least for now.

I'm starting at Level 3. I don't how long the campaign will last, but I want to focus on effectiveness for lower levels (perhaps as high as level 10) before I focus on an over all 20 level build.

That said I get 2 Feats; I think I'll go with Improved Initiative and Power Attack.

In terms of Domains I've basically narrowed it down to War, Strength, and Travel.

My DM is letting me not worship a deity so I can choose whatever Domains I want. I assume I'll also be able to choose any weapon I want if I go with the War Domain. If I do i think I'll go with a greatsword if only because a dwarf with an axe is o cliche. If I don't go with War as a Domain I think I'll use a spear.

In fact how does that sound? Travel and Strength as Domains and a Spear as my weapon.

I think that means I'm done. I just need to find out how he wants me generating stats and HP and I can build my character. Oh, and I need a name. I think I'l go with Rowor (what I named the last dwarf character I made who never go used).

[Leon]

Go Halberd, best of the Axe and Spear in one handy package

As for gods - Dol Arrah from Eberron has Good, Law, Sun & War as Domains and Halberd is her favoured weapon

[Toliudar]

Dwarves with spears are great - I can just picture him in a narrow passage, using the spear to block anyone from passing. Given the diminishing role that the actual damage dice of a weapon plays as you advance in levels, a spear, with that lovely "I hit you first"-ness of reach, is definitely a workable solution.

All the best to you and Rowor!

[Kurald Galain]

In terms of Domains I've basically narrowed it down to War, Strength, and Travel.

If you don't want to choose, I think there's a feat that lets you pick a third domain.

[Rowanomicon]

I think I'll go with Strength and Travel, but I'll keep that Feat in mind (any idea where it's from?) as many Domains' Granted Powers themselves are better than a normal Feat, let alone the extra spells available.
The War Domain itself grants two Feats at it's Granted Power.

[Chronos]

When I suggested Strength or Destruction before, that was thinking strictly in terms of melee effectiveness. But Travel is a good domain all around, for any cleric. The granted power duplicates a 3rd-level spell, making you essentially immune to entanglement, paralysis, etc., and the spells include many useful things which otherwise wouldn't be available to clerics. So I'll add my voice to the chorus of approval for Travel.

[Rowanomicon]

Travel and Strength it is then.

There's just one other little thing.
This might be hard since I definitely don't want to give up caster levels if I have to, but...

Anybody know of anything out there (anything at all) that could add some pirate flavour to this PC?

It could even be tactics or spell choice. Perhaps Feats, Skills (Tumble, Balance etc), PrCs, Templates (hey, maybe...), anything...

[Hecore]

Well you could drop the Strength domain and go for the Water domain instead for some instant pirate flavor.

Something worth going for is Extended Divine Power. At 20th level it'd give you a bab of 20, +6 str, 20 temporary hp, and last for 40 rounds.

[Skjaldbakka]

Something worth going for is Extended Divine Power. At 20th level it'd give you a bab of 20, +6 str, 20 temporary hp, and last for 40 rounds.

4 minutes ain't a significant gain on 2 minutes. I really don't see why you would ever extend that spell. By the time you get it, it lasts a fight, maybe two if they are close together. Whether or not you extend it.

[Rowanomicon]

Yeah, I could grab the water domain.
I haven't talked to my DM about making it a piratesque campaign yet though.

[greenknight]

Just be aware that Clerics don't really gish all that well until around level 9 (that's when they can cast Divine Power and a quickened Divine Favor). If it's a low level game and you really want to gish, you might want to consider Druid instead, since they can gish from Level 5 (Wild Shape), and they really come into their own at level 6 with Natural Spell.

[Dr. Weasel]

Just be aware that Clerics don't really gish all that well until around level 9 (that's when they can cast Divine Power and a quickened Divine Favor). If it's a low level game and you really want to gish, you might want to consider Druid instead, since they can gish from Level 5 (Wild Shape), and they really come into their own at level 6 with Natural Spell.

...Have you looked at the Cleric Spell list? Particularly with his domains?

1:Enlarge Person, Protection from Evil, Shield of Faith (good at higher levels), Divine Favor (again, good at higher levels; not so much now)
2:Bull's Strength is the big one
3:Fly
4:Divine Power
5:Righteous Might (at this point you don't need nothin' else)

These are the best buffs available at each level (beside Haste). Outside of core, I know there are many more, I just don't have any of those books available now.

[Rowanomicon]

Yeah. I rock.

Seriously though, I've played clerics as gish before and it works fine form level 1. Maybe not as powerful as a Druid, but... nevermind, I don't need to start that discussion in this thread.

[greenknight]

...Have you looked at the Cleric Spell list? Particularly with his domains?

Sure I have, especially with Domains. I even created a Gish Cleric here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2826740&postcount=76) (although I should note, the point of that build was to show how unbalanced spellcasters are, it shouldn't be used for real games). However, even though there are some very nice spells on the list, the point I made is still correct - prior to level 9, Clerics don't really Gish well. With just a few exceptions (Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might), prior to level 9 the Cleric is usually better off using the spells you mentioned to buff someone else in the party. If you really want to gish at low to mid levels, Druids are the best choice.


These are the best buffs available at each level (beside Haste).

Since you mentioned Domains, let's not forget the Magic Domain, which allows you to use any Arcane Wand (or Staff) with a Wizard spell - so you do have Haste available. You can also use scrolls etc, but unless your effective caster level and intelligence score are high enough, there's a chance of mishap.