Is Summoning that terrible?

[Master O'Laughs]

So in my CoS campaign, our moon druid was looking for suggestions for concentration spells to cast before going into animal form. He had missed the previous session and was joining half way through a long drawn out battle with about 60 blights. I suggested conjure animal could be useful to help with action economy and my DM started complaining about how he hates summons and it is so much work to keep track of (I am not doing him justice in my description only due to brevity and memory sake).

My question to DMs is this:

1) Is Conjure Animal that hard for a DM to keep track of?

2) If so, what are ways to work around or help simplify it for the DM?

also 3) What makes it so difficult?

I wonder if in his case, it is making sure to attack the creatures so they are not simply extra damage every turn. It does rub me raw a little bit since woodland beings is supposed to be the "ultra broken" spell. Part of why I suggested it for this encounter specifically was since the action economy was heavily against us. I can see if it became every battle all the time.

Any insight to see if this is a common DM opinion or not would be greatly appreciated.

[Haldir]

So in my CoS campaign, our moon druid was looking for suggestions for concentration spells to cast before going into animal form. He had missed the previous session and was joining half way through a long drawn out battle with about 60 blights. I suggested conjure animal could be useful to help with action economy and my DM started complaining about how he hates summons and it is so much work to keep track of (I am not doing him justice in my description only due to brevity and memory sake).

My question to DMs is this:

1) Is Conjure Animal that hard for a DM to keep track of?

2) If so, what are ways to work around or help simplify it for the DM?

also 3) What makes it so difficult?

I wonder if in his case, it is making sure to attack the creatures so they are not simply extra damage every turn. It does rub me raw a little bit since woodland beings is supposed to be the "ultra broken" spell. Part of why I suggested it for this encounter specifically was since the action economy was heavily against us. I can see if it became every battle all the time.

Any insight to see if this is a common DM opinion or not would be greatly appreciated.

Given that this guy is running an encounter with 60 (!) different actors, a few extra summons is a drop in the bucket in comparison.

No, I don't think most DM's have issues with summons adding to their workload. The only time it really becomes an issue is when the player expects them all to act individually doing many different things and it slows down the game. There are a ton of workable shortcuts that any DM worth is salt is going to use to solve these problems.

my general rule is that, unless there is something absolutely vital to the story, I do not roll for NPC's attacking/interacting with other NPC's. I make a short action statement about how the conflict/interaction is progressing that turn and move on.

The nice thing about 5e is that you have a lot of freedom of make these shortcuts. I absolutely hate long rounds where I have to use a lot of rules to adjudicate things. Pathfinder players ruined the roll-play of TTRPGS for me.

[JellyPooga]

A GM pitting 60 foes against the party has no justification for complaining about adding a dozen friendlies to the players' side...

[Darkstar952]

A GM pitting 60 foes against the party has no justification for complaining about adding a dozen friendlies to the players' side...

Pretty much this, my biggest hate for summons is the number of extra die rolls and corresponding extra time it adds to the encounter. A general rule of thumb at my table is the summons are OK but to try to keep the summons to 1 or 2 additional creatures.

Though this is a bit rich coming from a DM putting you up against 60 creatures, unless of course you have a few blasters and he expects most of the 60 to disappear in a fireball or two.

[Master O'Laughs]

This was an encounter in Curse of Strahd where the enemies come in waves. At one point there were about 30+ enemies on the board at once. The total encounter had about 60 dudes in total we fought.

As far as the summoning goes, in my head, you pick the CR and pick an animal from it and get the corresponding amount of animals. If they are supposed to have their own separate group initiative, I would think having them go on the Druid's turn would make sense for simplicity.

Let's change the scenario, if we were fighting 10 moderately strong enemies (group of 5 PCs) instead of 30 (for sake of comparability) weak ones, what is the big concern? For a level 3 slot we make the encounter easy due to action economy?

I have gotten the sense the DM does not like being surprised by things (like when I had my invisible imp go scout out a building for the first time, he basically gave me nothing and refused to read room descriptions; we have talked about it and going forward he will prepare for that situation) and he likes to make sure we are properly challenged (which in general I have no issue with, but if we figure out a cool trick or tactic to make an encounter easy, let us have it for that encounter).

[Master O'Laughs]

Pretty much this, my biggest hate for summons is the number of extra die rolls and corresponding extra time it adds to the encounter. A general rule of thumb at my table is the summons are OK but to try to keep the summons to 1 or 2 additional creatures.

Though this is a bit rich coming from a DM putting you up against 60 creatures, unless of course you have a few blasters and he expects most of the 60 to disappear in a fireball or two.

This encounter was in the module itself, and luckily we had a light cleric. I do not think the DM was "planning" for the fireballs to be cast, he simply dislikes summons.

[jiriku]

That's just your DM's pet peeve.

I encourage my players to summon if they want to. My only rule is that a summon cannot be cast unless the player already has the correct stat block available before initiative is rolled. I won't stop combat while a player spends 5-10 minutes doing math and building up a stat block. In the past, I have built custom summoner classes for my players and I often use summoners as foes. It's a classic fantasy staple and it deserves some representation at the table.

If your DM can't manage summoned monsters effectively, then manage them yourself, and be quick about your business. Have the stats available. Choose their action before your initiative count comes up. Use average damage for them, rather than rolling damage. In fact, if it's obvious what the summoned monsters will do, pre-roll their attacks or ability checks when the player who is right ahead of you in initiative is still taking a turn. If you have figured out the enemy's AC, you can start your turn by saying something like "my three black bears surround that guy and attack. I rolled six attacks and have two hits with one bite and one claw, for a total of twelve damage." Then you move the bears into position on the white board or game mat or whatever and take your own character's turn. The total time that the summons add to the round is maybe 15 seconds.

[Haldir]

I have gotten the sense the DM does not like being surprised by things (like when I had my invisible imp go scout out a building for the first time, he basically gave me nothing and refused to read room descriptions; we have talked about it and going forward he will prepare for that situation) and he likes to make sure we are properly challenged (which in general I have no issue with, but if we figure out a cool trick or tactic to make an encounter easy, let us have it for that encounter).


Bolded for emphasis. This is a huge problem. Being able to adapt to surprises is absolutely essential. "Planning ahead" is never ever ever ever ever EVER going to be enough. If the DM refuses to acknowledge your unexpected actions, you are playing a doomed game and you have my sincerest condolences.

Refusing to read room descriptions when you used basic scouting tactics would have been a deal breaker for me.:smalleek:

[Dark Schneider]

You could use the crowd rules on DMG.

[Master O'Laughs]

That's just your DM's pet peeve.

I encourage my players to summon if they want to. My only rule is that a summon cannot be cast unless the player already has the correct stat block available before initiative is rolled. I won't stop combat while a player spends 5-10 minutes doing math and building up a stat block. In the past, I have built custom summoner classes for my players and I often use summoners as foes. It's a classic fantasy staple and it deserves some representation at the table.

If your DM can't manage summoned monsters effectively, then manage them yourself, and be quick about your business. Have the stats available. Choose their action before your initiative count comes up. Use average damage for them, rather than rolling damage. In fact, if it's obvious what the summoned monsters will do, pre-roll their attacks or ability checks when the player who is right ahead of you in initiative is still taking a turn. If you have figured out the enemy's AC, you can start your turn by saying something like "my three black bears surround that guy and attack. I rolled six attacks and have two hits with one bite and one claw, for a total of twelve damage." Then you move the bears into position on the white board or game mat or whatever and take your own character's turn. The total time that the summons add to the round is maybe 15 seconds.

A couple things, I found a nice app that has animal stat blocks by CR amongst other things which is really convenient and our druid uses the app as well.

I also would never assume the DM should keep track of the animals and would be completely on the PC.

Using average damage actually seems like a great idea to limit some of the rolling.

[NaughtyTiger]

. The total time that the summons add to the round is maybe 15 seconds.
Most combats at the T2 level take 30 minutes. I don't believe 15 sec per PC/NPC is realistic

The problems with summoning in practice:

PC: i want 8 giant owl.... what are the stats?
DM: ug, can't you look them up?
PC: i don't have the book...
DM: ug, bob give him the book
PC: thanks, okay where do i find it?

PC: my turn, how many hit points does this bad guy have?
DM: it's hurting.
PC: okay, i roll 1 attack, hits, 6 points of damage, and fly away. you can't attack it cuz flyby. Is it still up?
DM: yes...
PC: okay I attack again...
other PCs: i am going to the bathroom
...

PCs aren't prepared for the spell, DMs aren't prepared for the spell. Game play bogs down.

Updated rules say: PC chooses CR and DM chooses creature (so no pixies and giant owls)

Things that help:
Mob rules help (no rolling, just group for autohits)
Or attack in groups (2 groups of 4, all hit or all miss as a group)
Use average damage.

[Master O'Laughs]

Most combats at the T2 level take 30 minutes. I don't believe 15 sec per PC/NPC is realistic

The problems with summoning in practice:

PC: i want 8 giant owl.... what are the stats?
DM: ug, can't you look them up?
PC: i don't have the book...
DM: ug, bob give him the book
PC: thanks, okay where do i find it?

PC: my turn, how many hit points does this bad guy have?
DM: it's hurting.
PC: okay, i roll 1 attack, hits, 6 points of damage, and fly away. you can't attack it cuz flyby. Is it still up?
DM: yes...
PC: okay I attack again...
other PCs: i am going to the bathroom
...

PCs aren't prepared for the spell, DMs aren't prepared for the spell. Game play bogs down.

Updated rules say: PC chooses CR and DM chooses creature (so no pixies and giant owls)

Things that help:
Mob rules help (no rolling, just group for autohits)
Or attack in groups (2 groups of 4, all hit or all miss as a group)
Use average damage.

So if the PC is on top of the spell rules and his summons stats, time becomes less of an issue.

And the time issue can be made even less of an issue with the understanding you if you swarm a bad guy and he dies on the first hit, the rest are stuck there until the next turn.

I think I will try and have a nice fleshed out conversation about summons and if timing is a big deal, maybe we can work out ways to make it work. Even though he is filling in so our main DM can play for a chance, I game with him as well on Saturdays and he might be DMing again soon on that night and would like to help work with him on making summons a thing that is an option (I really want to play a shepard Druid).

[NaughtyTiger]

So if the PC is on top of the spell rules and his summons stats, time becomes less of an issue.

And the time issue can be made even less of an issue with the understanding you if you swarm a bad guy and he dies on the first hit, the rest are stuck there until the next turn.

I think I will try and have a nice fleshed out conversation about summons and if timing is a big deal, maybe we can work out ways to make it work. Even though he is filling in so our main DM can play for a chance, I game with him as well on Saturdays and he might be DMing again soon on that night and would like to help work with him on making summons a thing that is an option (I really want to play a shepard Druid).

Even if you are on top of it, it is still 9 attacks per round (druid + 8 wolves). Unless you use mob/group attacks

Pre-declaring attacks would help. We do that for PCs in my home games too.

Shepherd is slightly worse for the DM cuz normally 1/4cr can't survive 1 hit. so you don't need to track their HP. but shepard adds temp HP (and later healing).

[brainface]

That was the worst part of Curse of Strahd.

[Master O'Laughs]

That was the worst part of Curse of Strahd.

I have played in a game that pulled the Amber Temple for a dungeon. I am not looking forward going back there. I only got to see part of it but at least for me, if I touch a certain item and then fail a certain saving throw, I will no longer be a PC.

[stoutstien]

Summons are fine. It's an important part of some classes damage potintial. The only stipulations i have the summons have to make sense for the environment. So no gaint elk pain train in the depths of the underdark and so on. My players know if fighting intelligent enemies they will treat summoners as try to focus on them.
Oh yeah. no pixies.

[Damon_Tor]

Pretty much this, my biggest hate for summons is the number of extra die rolls and corresponding extra time it adds to the encounter. A general rule of thumb at my table is the summons are OK but to try to keep the summons to 1 or 2 additional creatures.

Though this is a bit rich coming from a DM putting you up against 60 creatures, unless of course you have a few blasters and he expects most of the 60 to disappear in a fireball or two.

A while ago I posted a system to this forum whereby a group of identical creatures all making an attack would roll a single d20 attack roll, and the result would determine what percentage of them hit. It's worked really well so far for one of my players with a necromancer, so far we've all been quite happy with it.

For tracking the HP of all of them; by the time you have enough summons to be a problem, any damage they take will probably be enough to kill them outright, so just treat them as if they have 1 HP, make saves for half damage reduce damage to 0 instead, and move on with your life. If the player objects to the minionization of their summons, encourage them to select the summoning options that result in fewer, beefier summons.

[Ganymede]

As a DM, I always audibly and dramatically sigh every time someone casts a summon spell.

Once, someone asked for pixies and I was like, "You're getting blink dogs, you bastard."

[Master O'Laughs]

As a DM, I always audibly and dramatically sigh every time someone casts a summon spell.

Once, someone asked for pixies and I was like, "You're getting blink dogs, you bastard."

I can totally understand the pixies issue, what are your thought about the conjure animals spell which is restricted to beasts?

If you have issues with it, are they due to increased turn time/player indecision/lack of preparation?

[Ganymede]

I can totally understand the pixies issue, what are your thought about the conjure animals spell which is restricted to beasts?

If you have issues with it, are they due to increased turn time/player indecision/lack of preparation?

My biggest issue is most definitely the increased combat length.

[Dark Schneider]

Reading the spell, it says:

They have their own initiative, but as a group

So I think they all act as the same "entity", like a band of crows or bats. As mentioned, you can use the DMG crowd rules for high number of creatures, that determines number of creatures per hit, and then roll the damage.
You could also use a single large miniature (if using) like all the summoned band.

If enemies also are many, you could use the same crowd rules so their archers fire against your flying beasts, and depending on damage and HP of each beast, you lose that number.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I can totally understand the pixies issue, what are your thought about the conjure animals spell which is restricted to beasts?

If you have issues with it, are they due to increased turn time/player indecision/lack of preparation?

It sounds like your DM is letting you choose the beasts/fey you summon? Which he really doesn't have to, but it works in your favor if he does. So by all means, you should have those stat blocks ready to roll!

[Master O'Laughs]

It sounds like your DM is letting you choose the beasts/fey you summon? Which he really doesn't have to, but it works in your favor if he does. So by all means, you should have those stat blocks ready to roll!

DM hasn't let anyone summon anything. He just made bad jokes about if the druid did summon something and grumbled. He got his way and the druid didn't cast the spell. To be fair, the druid is a newer player and the increased responsibility of having minions to control probably is not the best idea.

A big reason for the thread is to understand the general consensus of other DMs on the topic and possibly pick the collective brain for ways to streamline summons.

[Zuras]

To amplify what others have said—

If the summoner is on top of their abilities, and isn’t taking long turns, summoning is fine. If they don’t have the stats for their summons, attempt to give them complex orders, or simply take too long rolling, then it is a problem.

As DM, I let players have one shot at running 8 CR 1/4, if they are fast, fine, if not they are encouraged to use the 2 @ CR 1 or 1 @ CR 2 options.

[Foxhound438]

it's not an uncommon opinion, as far as I've seen, but it can be made easy.

The way I do it is that the summons just go right after the summoner. No added initiatives. It's definitely made easier if you aren't asking for 4 or 8 extra things, but if a player really wanted 8 panthers or whatever I'd have them just move them as a group and roll all their attacks at once. That is a soft nerf, as if 2 hits could kill an enemy and they have to swing all at once, they might end up overkilling them and losing that damage. If they have an issue with that, I'd remind them that a couple of octopi are probably as good or better anyways and take way less time to do individually.

[StorytellerHero]

A table solution for summoning lots of monsters is to let each player (and perhaps even the DM) take control of X summoned monsters, simulating how each monster ultimately has a mind of its own, keeping the gameplay time from getting overrun by any one person who summons a ton of minions.

This can also serve as a change of pace to keep things spicy for the players.

In the end, it's all about keeping everyone at the table invested in the gameplay because it's a cooperative group activity.

[Asmotherion]

I believe Summon Monster I-IX from 3.5 was a more interesting methode of summoning, and can easily be translated to 5e (with upcasting) with minimal effort. Make it an RP spell were you have to know the true name of the monster you summon, and it becomes that much more interesting.

[ad_hoc]

https://www.phdgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/DD-Monster-Cards-0-5.png

[Keravath]

Summons are fine. It's an important part of some classes damage potintial. The only stipulations i have the summons have to make sense for the environment. So no gaint elk pain train in the depths of the underdark and so on. My players know if fighting intelligent enemies they will treat summoners as try to focus on them.
Oh yeah. no pixies.

Depending on the summon spell you don't actually get beasts you get fey spirits in the shape of beasts so at least for those spells, where they are cast shouldn't make any difference since you aren't actually trying to summon real animals.

"CONJURE ANIMALS

You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts and appear in unoccupied spaces that you can see within range. Choose one of the following options for what appears:
• One beast of challenge rating 2 or lower
• Two beasts of challenge rating l or lower
• Four beasts of challenge rating 1/2 or lower
• Eight beasts of challenge rating 1/4 or lower
Each beast is also considered fey, and it disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends."

Since a giant elk is CR2 ... I don't really see why you can't summon one wherever you like since it is a fey spirit emulating the beast. (though since it is your game it is up to you but trying to justify beast choice based on what beasts might live there really doesn't make any sense when they are fey spirits and not actually beasts).

Pixies on the other hand :) ... the cascading spell effects are just a bit OP in many cases :) ... unless the bad guy just fireballs them all in one go before they get a turn.


To the OP ... a couple of extra summons are usually ok but the most powerful summons is typically a pack of 8 wolves ... although individually weaker (only 11hp) .. they have pack tactics to get advantage on all their attacks, and if they hit, the target has a DC 11 strength save to avoid being knocked prone which gives all the party members advantage on melee attacks from 5'.

On the other hand, summoning some bears and turning into a bear to lead a bear pack ... or dire wolves and lead a dire wolf pack can look pretty cool and be very effective also without bogging down the dice rolling as much.

[stoutstien]

Depending on the summon spell you don't actually get beasts you get fey spirits in the shape of beasts so at least for those spells, where they are cast shouldn't make any difference since you aren't actually trying to summon real animals.

"CONJURE ANIMALS

You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts and appear in unoccupied spaces that you can see within range. Choose one of the following options for what appears:
• One beast of challenge rating 2 or lower
• Two beasts of challenge rating l or lower
• Four beasts of challenge rating 1/2 or lower
• Eight beasts of challenge rating 1/4 or lower
Each beast is also considered fey, and it disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends."

Since a giant elk is CR2 ... I don't really see why you can't summon one wherever you like since it is a fey spirit emulating the beast. (though since it is your game it is up to you but trying to justify beast choice based on what beasts might live there really doesn't make any sense when they are fey spirits and not actually beasts).

Pixies on the other hand :) ... the cascading spell effects are just a bit OP in many cases :) ... unless the bad guy just fireballs them all in one go before they get a turn.

My thought process was the fey are being summoned from the feywild that is overlapping the matial plan. So underdark is now fey/underdark. The spirits tend to take shape of creatures that are known to them. I do this mostly for flavor/ immersion and to have players summon more than the same 2 creatures over and over.

[Tanarii]

I've never found the Conjure Animals spell to be problematic. But I have a high tolerance for large groups of monsters/NPCs to control. The Conjure Animals spell has the caster give verbal commands, which you can technically only do you your turn. And it doesn't specify the player gets to directly control the summoned creature's actions, unlike Animate Dead. So I just have them give a short command on their turn (no more than 6 seconds long), then have the animals execute on their next initiative/turn.

IMO it's fine to give control directly to the player as long as they're reasonable about it being the execution of a short verbal command. I know in AL players just assumed they had direct control and would have their summons do all sorts of complicated things. But IMX most players are far slower about running turns than I am, and so far I haven't had any players get twisted about my ruling the spell this way.

Another limiting factor can be the animals disappear if the caster fails concentration. Knowledgable enemies focus fire obvious casters of dangerous spells already for exactly that reason. And knocking out a Conjure Animals spell before the animals can act is huge. Not always feasible, nor do all enemies think that way, but it definitely can come into play.