Feats order for Vengeance Paladin

[Benny89]

So I will be playing Vuman Vengance Paladin.

Stats: STR 16, 8- DEX, WIS, INT, 15 CON, 16 CHA.

Fighting Style: Tunnel Fighter, Feat on 1st level: Polearm Master.

Now my goal is to make a balanced front liner who can deal with group of enemies (Tunnel Fighter + PAM + Relentless Avenger on 7 for unlimited OP attacks vs melee groups) to keep my party save on backline and when needed will do Vengeance Paladin job and burn his Smited into some strong baddy face.

As fast as I will get Find Steed I will switch to combat from back of mount when it's a good option (not inside dark narrow dungeon of course). Later with Greater Steed it will be Pegasus Rocket Missle.

There are however two things that I am not sure about:
1. I need that Resilent (CON) - not for that 16 CON really but for CONC bonus. I will constantly keep some effect on - Bless or Shield of Faith or Later Haste.
2. However at the same time I need to bump my Strength. But if I will be able to obtain Giant Strength magic item I will always regret not to put ASI in CHA instead.


I think Haste is the most important self-buff for this build and it's on level 9. So I was thinking about feat order:

1st- PAM, 4th- GWM, 8th- Resilent CON (just before level I get haste), 12th - +2 STR or CHA, 16- +2 STR or CHA.

However that put's my STR score really behind for a majority of levels. On the other hand I thought:

1st- PAM, 4th- GWM, 8th +2 STR or CHA, 12th- Resilent CON, 16th +2 STR or CHA.

I could also just dip 1 level of Fighter for that CON proficiency and I would only miss a Vengeance capstone which is not that super important.

What do you guys think?

[Amdy_vill]

sentinel is a great feat

[Benny89]

sentinel is a great feat

I agree but I have no place for it. With Tunnel Fighter + PAM and Relentless Avenger I don't want to stop enemies from moving, I want them to move to my reach, hit the with OAs, move back, they have to move in again, rise repeat. It's a control based on mobility and damage. Sentinel would not fit that much since it stops them from moving and the whole point of this build is to force them to move into reach again.

On any other class I would take sentinel for PAM+ Tunnel Fighter but with Relentless Avenger they would counter themselfs quite a lot.

[jiriku]

I'd agree with your first plan, getting Con proficiency first. Losing concentration on haste in the middle of a fight will hurt a lot. You can't protect your party for a whole round when that happens. You don't want that.

Strength is less important for you because you make so many attacks. You will almost always hit at least once per round, meaning you will be able to smite whenever you need to. And there are many ways to compensate for low Strength. An ally can give you advantage. A magic weapon can give you a bonus. A magic item can improve your Strength. But there are not many ways to improve concentration except for Resilience or a fighter level.

[Benny89]

I'd agree with your first plan, getting Con proficiency first. Losing concentration on haste in the middle of a fight will hurt a lot. You can't protect your party for a whole round when that happens. You don't want that.

Strength is less important for you because you make so many attacks. You will almost always hit at least once per round, meaning you will be able to smite whenever you need to. And there are many ways to compensate for low Strength. An ally can give you advantage. A magic weapon can give you a bonus. A magic item can improve your Strength. But there are not many ways to improve concentration except for Resilience or a fighter level.

Thanks. I wonder if 1 level of Fighter wouldn't be better. Because while I delay Paladin progression by one level, I don't lose any ASI, because last ASI is on level 19 of Paladin and I don't only get Prof to CON but also additional Fighting Style.

That would save me ASI but I would stick with 15 CON then. So if taking Fighter 1 level it would be better to start with 14 CON (it's +2 anyway) and put tha 2 points into WIS for +0.

I think this might be better option? 20 capstone is nice (1 hour AOE fear) but its' not THAT impressive on level 20 and I might not get there even :P

So then I would go

6 levels of Paladin to get extra attack, Aura, PAM + GWM and then 1 level fighter, and then level 8 ASI to CHA or STR and on level 9 I would have PAM, GWM, ASI +2, Prof in CON and Haste + Additional Fighting Style (Great Weapon Fighting for rerolling smites).

[LudicSavant]

How I build always depends on the other people in the party, because synergy is where the real oomph comes from. That said, as a Paladin my priorities tend to be:

1) Get some form of decent bonus action and resourceless strength (like PAM, as you already have).
2) Max Charisma

The aura is essentially your best ability, and a +7 Constitution save is better than most casters get on its own. As is the fact that you're boosting the Constitution save of your other casters, not just your own. To put it into perspective, if taken at level 4, Resilient (Con) gives you +2 Constitution (or +3 if it boosted an odd Con, but NOT having an odd Con means you can boost other stats more), while +2 Cha gives +1 to all six saves to you and whoever's close to you, and boosts your saving throw DCs, your party face skills, and your number of prepared spells while you're at it. Not to mention that taking half damage or no damage on more saving throws will decrease the amount of Concentration checks you're failing, too. As will making saving throws against effects that cause you to stop Concentrating, such as stuff that makes you Incapacitated. Targeting Con isn't the only way to break a foe's Concentration, after all.

Unless you're playing in a game where you can never expect to get your hands on even 101-500gp Uncommon magic items like Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, even with high Charisma (which under the Xanathar's rules just LETS you get said magic items) boosting Strength seems optional. You know your own table better than we do, so it's hard to make that call for you.

[Benny89]

How I build always depends on the other people in the party, because synergy is where the real oomph comes from. That said, as a Paladin my priorities tend to be:

1) Get some form of decent bonus action and resourceless strength (like PAM, as you already have).
2) Max Charisma

The aura is essentially your best ability, and a +7 Constitution save is better than most casters get on its own. As is the fact that you're boosting the Constitution save of your other casters, not just your own. To put it into perspective, if taken at level 4, Resilient (Con) gives you +2 Constitution (or +3 if it boosted an odd Con, but NOT having an odd Con means you can boost other stats more), while +2 Cha gives +1 to all six saves to you and whoever's close to you, and boosts your saving throw DCs, your party face skills, and your number of prepared spells while you're at it. Not to mention that taking half damage or no damage on more saving throws will decrease the amount of Concentration checks you're failing, too. As will making saving throws against effects that cause you to stop Concentrating, such as stuff that makes you Incapacitated. Targeting Con isn't the only way to break a foe's Concentration, after all.

Unless you're playing in a game where you can never expect to get your hands on even 101-500gp Uncommon magic items like Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, even with high Charisma (which under the Xanathar's rules just LETS you get said magic items) boosting Strength seems optional. You know your own table better than we do, so it's hard to make that call for you.

But if you have proficiency on CON that adds your proficiency bonus to CON check when you do Concentration check, yes? So with Prof in CON + Aura (let's assume 20 CHA) that would be +2 + 4 (prof, 12th Level) + 5 (20 CHA) = + 11 to Concentration. That is pretty much guarantee success, unless you really throw bad. And it will rise by another +2 at higher levels.

Hence why I think that 1 levle dip in Fighter is worth that prof. What do you think?


As for Strength. The problem I see here is I don't know if I will get my hands on some STR boosting items and GWM -5 will hurt me longer (even though Bless will mostly help with that 1d4 bonus to hit). Hence why I was thinking about that.

But I also shift more towards increasing CHA over STR so I am just thinking laudly let's say :P

[Corran]

Hence why I think that 1 levle dip in Fighter is worth that prof. What do you think?

Keep in mind though that you are trading proficiency in wisdom saves. Most (if not all) the stuff that can frighten, paralyze, charm and incapacitate you target wisdom saves. Personally I wouldn't delay my paladin progression by 1 level just for a fighting style and to trade two important save proficiencies. It's your call of course, but be sure to weight carefully what you are giving up, because what you might think of as a shortcut is instead a trade (which IMO is not a beneficial one).

[LudicSavant]

But if you have proficiency on CON that adds your proficiency bonus to CON check when you do Concentration check, yes? So with Prof in CON + Aura (let's assume 20 CHA) that would be +2 + 4 (prof, 12th Level) + 5 (20 CHA) = + 11 to Concentration. That is pretty much guarantee success, unless you really throw bad. And it will rise by another +2 at higher levels.

Yes. And proficiency is +2 at level 4. It gets better at later levels. You asked about the order of taking things, to which my response is "for a Paladin, I take Resilient (Con) later."


Hence why I think that 1 levle dip in Fighter is worth that prof. What do you think?

Well, it'll depend on what you find more valuable. There are some notable opportunity costs here:

Pros:
- You get Str/Con save proficiency
- You get an extra Fighting Style, which will be Defense or Great Weapon Fighting (note: GWF is one of those things where Sage Advice has offered contradictory rulings, and one of those rulings is a lot weaker for paladins than RAW; ask your DM which rule is being used).

Cons:
- You lose Wis/Cha save proficiency. As bad as losing a Con save is, failing Wis and Cha saves tends to be pretty bad too. And while your Cha save is generally going to be high enough without proficiency, your Wisdom save could use the love (since you probably have low Wisdom).
- You lose a caster level, and delay access to Paladin features like your aura or improved divine smite. You also get your ASIs a level later.

[Benny89]

Keep in mind though that you are trading proficiency in wisdom saves. Most (if not all) the stuff that can frighten, paralyze, charm and incapacitate you target wisdom saves. Personally I wouldn't delay my paladin progression by 1 level just for a fighting style and to trade two important save proficiencies. It's your call of course, but be sure to weight carefully what you are giving up, because what you might think of as a shortcut is instead a trade (which IMO is not a beneficial one).

I may be missing something from rules then- why do I trade proficiency in Wisdom? Paladin has WIS and CHA prof and 1 level Fighter adds CON prof. Do I have to lose one prof to get another one? You can only have 2 profs in saving throws? Why do I lose my Paladin proficiencies? I am still Paladin main.

Just asking for explanation, seems I am missing something.

EDIT:

I found only this:

"Proficiency Bonus

Your proficiency bonus is always based on your total character level, as shown in the Character Advancement table in chapter 1, not your level in a particular class. For example, if you are a fighter 3/rogue 2, you have the proficiency bonus of a 5th-level character, which is +3. "

[Corran]

You only have the save proficiencies from your starting class. Multiclassing does not give you extra save proficiencies. AFB so I can't tell you in which page it says so unfortunately (I am assuming at the multiclassing section).

[Benny89]

You only have the save proficiencies from your starting class. Multiclassing does not give you extra save proficiencies. AFB so I can't tell you in which page it says so unfortunately (I am assuming at the multiclassing section).

I just read Multiclass section (163-165) in PHB and unless I am blind (I can be...) I don't see anything about save proficiencies at all. The only mention are level-based proficiences but nothing about save proficiencies (which stack when multi because it's about char level not class level) having some sort of rule when you multiclass.

EDIT: Maybe It's because In Multiclassing Proficiences table there are only some thing mentioned that you get and since there is no save prof there- that means you don't get them?

But that means you always just stay with your main class save profs.

I guess this is it?

[LudicSavant]

Saving Throws are just a proficiency like any other. Since they're not on the list of proficiencies you get when multiclassing, you don't get them.

[Benny89]

Saving Throws are just a proficiency like any other. Since they're not on the list of proficiencies you get when multiclassing, you don't get them.

OK, that's what I starting to think. Thanks for confirming.

Well, that solves problem- I need to pick Resilent (CON) :P. And I will use your advice above and grab later than earlier. Thanks!

[Benny89]

One more question though:

Do you think 16, 8, 15, 8, 8, 16 is better than 16, 10, 13, 8, 10, 16.

One give me later with Resilent CON = 16 CON and +3 save, but at the same time I suffer -1 to DEX and -1 to WIS (though here I have proficiency).

Second one give me less CON = 14 later and +2 but I have 0 DEX and +2 WIS (at start) which then my AURA will boost later.

Which do you think is more important/better?