Poking at Houserules, need second opinions

[PhantasyPen]

So one of the few things I really liked about 5e was the rules they had for prepared casters: you can spontaneously cast any spells you have prepared, up to your spells per day of that level. So I've been thinking about importing these rules to 3.5 as one of my standard official houserules. Unfortunately, I'm fully aware that this houserule would be extremely painful to actual spontaneous casters, so I'm not sure how I can compensate them if I tried to implement this change. I thought of maybe doubling their spell slots but that could very quickly and easily get out of hand...

[heavyfuel]

My opinion is "don't". It completely ruins the flavor of prepared casting.

Wizards need to make rituals and leave such rituals 99% finished before speaking the last words or making the last gestures. If you didn't prepare the ritual for 3 Fireballs, but only 2, you don't get to cast a 3rd Fireball before you get a chance to re-do the rituals.

Divine Casters prayed/meditated for their spells. You didn't ask for the same spell twice? Tough luck, try again next morning/evening when your god/cause/nature is willing to give you spells again.

[Thunder999]

Prepared casters are already the strongest things in the game by quite a bit, you really don't want to make them better, besides part of the fun of playing one is figuring out what spells you'll need (and of course adding in fun tricks like spontaneous divination and alacritous cogitation to have a few surprises up your sleeve).

Doubling spell slots would simultaneously cause balance problems and not actually bring them up to par. They'd still never have the versatility, the ability to use any spell they need with no more than a day's notice, less if they're smart enough to have an open slot ready, but it would destroy the notion of conserving spell slots.

[Zaq]

For what it’s worth, this is basically how the Spirit Shaman already works. Might use them as a baseline.

[daremetoidareyo]

My opinion is "don't". It completely ruins the flavor of prepared casting.

Wizards need to make rituals and leave such rituals 99% finished before speaking the last words or making the last gestures. If you didn't prepare the ritual for 3 Fireballs, but only 2, you don't get to cast a 3rd Fireball before you get a chance to re-do the rituals.

Divine Casters prayed/meditated for their spells. You didn't ask for the same spell twice? Tough luck, try again next morning/evening when your god/cause/nature is willing to give you spells again.

I mean, if you worship a lawful God, fine. But some of us worship the primordial soup of Chaos, which seems to prize adaptability to tough situations.

OP
Get rid of the metamagic wait time for spontaneous casters and throw some bonus metamagic Feats on the sorcerer. Done.

[PhantasyPen]

Doubling spell slots would simultaneously cause balance problems and not actually bring them up to par. They'd still never have the versatility, the ability to use any spell they need with no more than a day's notice, less if they're smart enough to have an open slot ready, but it would destroy the notion of conserving spell slots.

I'm aware doubling their slots wouldn't work, hence why I came to the forums to see what suggestions I could find.


I mean, if you worship a lawful God, fine. But some of us worship the primordial soup of Chaos, which seems to prize adaptability to tough situations.

OP
Get rid of the metamagic wait time for spontaneous casters and throw some bonus metamagic Feats on the sorcerer. Done.

I mean, that feels like a good first step, but is it really enough? I don't know, I might be overthinking this.

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm aware doubling their slots wouldn't work, hence why I came to the forums to see what suggestions I could find.



I mean, that feels like a good first step, but is it really enough? I don't know, I might be overthinking this.

The thing about your plan is that it weakens the Divide between spontaneous unprepared casters. You can go whole hog and just merge the classes together or make them more similar.

You are switching around things at some of the most versatile player classes, and the worst case scenario is that you Nerf sorcerers and favored Souls and possibly bards. I don't believe that the difference is all that big, so a few feats and the removal of metamagic hurdles should equilibrate them in a way that increases fun at the table. You will have fewer arbitrary rules of limitations soaking up player brain-RAM and yay bonus feats!

[Troacctid]

Swap the spell progressions. Spontaneous casters get spells at the fastest rate (2nd level spells at level 3, 3rd level spells at level 5, etc), prepared casters use the slower rate (2nd level spells at level 4, 3rd level spells at level 6, etc).

[PhantasyPen]

Swap the spell progressions. Spontaneous casters get spells at the fastest rate (2nd level spells at level 3, 3rd level spells at level 5, etc), prepared casters use the slower rate (2nd level spells at level 4, 3rd level spells at level 6, etc).

... I like it! I'll take a look at this more later, but I do like this suggestion.

[OgresAreCute]

Give bonus feats to sorcerer. Make spontaneous casters progress casting like a full caster (new spell levels at odd levels). I buffed the chassis of a few spontaneous guys so they have 3/4 BAB and stuff like that (less time spent learning to cast means more time spent learning to aim). A pretty good idea I had (if I may say so myself) was giving all Sorcerers a domain (ala domain wizard) which gives them bonus spells known but no bonus slots. Neatly takes them from 36 spells known to 45 and makes it easier for them to be thematic. For the fixed list chumps I thought about giving them spontaneous access to all Sor/Wiz spells from their specialty school, so all Necromancy spells for Dread Necro, all Evocation spells for Warmage, all Enchantment spells for Beguiler (illusion is a little too strong). Now, that particular change might be over the top but it's just an idea I had when brainstorming houserules for base classes.

[Pleh]

I'll add that one of my favorite 5e changes was that sorcerers get more metamagic.

It plays into that idea that it's easier to spontaneously Modify your spells on the fly.

Prepared casters don't have to preplan their slots per se, but spontaneous casters have an easier time squeezing a little more oomph out of their spells.

[ericgrau]

I think this is the main legit reason why spontaneous casters are behind 1 caster level. In high op pre-planning it's not great, but without much planning it makes the spontaneous caster much more versatile than the prepared one. Since he can mix and match his spells per day however he likes among his spells known. And much moreso with metamagic. And unlike the prepared caster all his spells known are actually prepared, so he has a similar number of ready options. Again crazy obsessive pre-planning might muck it up in theory, but it takes some dedication and eats up real life time.

Only way I see to do this house rule would be to make the spontaneous caster more like the prepared, and then why even have two different classes? I wouldn't do this houserule, just let it be.


Swap the spell progressions. Spontaneous casters get spells at the fastest rate (2nd level spells at level 3, 3rd level spells at level 5, etc), prepared casters use the slower rate (2nd level spells at level 4, 3rd level spells at level 6, etc).
This is fine for the well-prepared player, but the casual player won't gain much advantage compared to playing a spontaneous caster and he'll just be a caster level behind. And the well-prepared caster might do insane things to the campaign regardless. Maybe if you gave even more to the prepared caster in exchange for being behind, and also with the mutual understanding that no one will pre-plan with 15 divinations. Tack on ritual casting perhaps.

[Troacctid]

I'll add that one of my favorite 5e changes was that sorcerers get more metamagic.

It plays into that idea that it's easier to spontaneously Modify your spells on the fly.

Prepared casters don't have to preplan their slots per se, but spontaneous casters have an easier time squeezing a little more oomph out of their spells.
True. Maybe spontaneous casters get a 1-point discount on all metamagic.

[Nifft]

1/ Some spells are part of a spell-cluster; learning one means learning all of them. This includes the traditional "reversed" spells :
- Hold Person / Remove Paralysis;
- Bless / Bane;
- Cause Fear / Remove Fear;
- Silence / Sound Burst;
- Make Whole / Shatter;
- etc.

Spontaneous casters have access to all spells in a cluster; prepared casters prepare each individual spell separately. This is a bigger deal if you re-combine some spells that 3.5e split:
- Emotion (Crushing Despair / Good Hope / Rage / Fear);
- Symbol;
- etc.

You could also combine some new over-specialized spells to make them more palatable for spontaneous casters:
- Daylight / Light of Venya / Rainbow Blast;
- Darkbolt / Deeper Darkness / Pall of Twilight;
- etc.


2/ Give each spontaneous caster a theme, and give them a list of bonus spells which have significant overlap but which guarantee their competence within the theme. These thematic spells would be in addition to the few spells they learn normally. Spontaneous casters would have a larger list of currently available spells than any prepared caster, but without the means to tactically change their few chosen spells day-to-day. This preserves the current balance of more tactical options vs. fewer strategic options.

[OgresAreCute]

2/ Give each spontaneous caster a theme, and give them a list of bonus spells which have significant overlap but which guarantee their competence within the theme. These thematic spells would be in addition to the few spells they learn normally. Spontaneous casters would have a larger list of currently available spells than any prepared caster, but without the means to tactically change their few chosen spells day-to-day. This preserves the current balance of more tactical options vs. fewer strategic options.

You can use wizard domains for this. Could use divine domains too, I suppose.

[Aetis]

So one of the few things I really liked about 5e was the rules they had for prepared casters: you can spontaneously cast any spells you have prepared, up to your spells per day of that level. So I've been thinking about importing these rules to 3.5 as one of my standard official houserules. Unfortunately, I'm fully aware that this houserule would be extremely painful to actual spontaneous casters, so I'm not sure how I can compensate them if I tried to implement this change. I thought of maybe doubling their spell slots but that could very quickly and easily get out of hand...

You can go playtest it and see if it's okay.

It might not be as game changing as you think. Or it might trash your game, in which case, good thing you playtested it first. :smallcool:

[Nifft]

You can use wizard domains for this. Could use divine domains too, I suppose.

Those might be a decent start, but I'm picturing significantly more than just one extra spell per level, especially at the lower levels.

[OgresAreCute]

Those might be a decent start, but I'm picturing significantly more than just one extra spell per level, especially at the lower levels.

...two wizard domains? :smallamused:

[Nifft]

...two wizard domains? :smallamused:

That'd be two themes, which is strongly contra-indicated by having a single theme. :smallcool:

[OgresAreCute]

That'd be two themes, which is strongly contra-indicated by having a single theme. :smallcool:

Two of the same wizard dom- oh wait.

[Goaty14]

...two wizard domains? :smallamused:

Rhymes with Ronjuration and Ransmutation, too!