Spells for a bard who doesn't believe in magic

[DSCrankshaw]

So I'm making a character for a low magic game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?573033-The-Curse-of-the-Weeping-Witch-A-D-amp-D-5e-Adventure), where it's quite possible for people to think that magic is just superstitious nonsense. I was considering how I would build a first level bard who doesn't believe in magic. The key, I think, is to give him spells that don't necessarily seem magical--they're just a product of his forceful personality and the power of suggestion. So Vicious Mockery is just an insult that throws off an opponent, and Dissonant Whispers is throwing your voice and freaking out your enemy.

Any other suggestions for spells that could have a mundane explanation for working? I need cantrips and 1st-level spells.

Note, the in-world explanation is not that these spells are really non-magical, just that their effects are subtle enough that a stubborn dwarf can convince himself they're not. (Why yes, I'm making a mountain dwarf bard. Why do you ask?)

[Kane0]

Blade Ward: Its already an alternative to the Dodge action, it's like a defensive stance
Friends: A quick word and friendly smile, before the person realizes they've been duped
Mending: You're just a good handyman
Message: Like Rogue's Cant, but you're not a thief
True Strike: You take a moment to study your opponent, it's like the help action on yourself

Animal Friendship: Raw animal magnetism, but doesn't last forever
Bane: Cruel mistress luck shuns those around you
Charm Person: see Friends
Comprehend languages: You're a bit of a polyglot, or at least know enough to get by
Cure Wounds: "Ah, you'll be right. A stiff drink is all you need!"
Disguise Self: You're just that good with that disguise kit
Faerie Fire: Don't tell anyone, but it's just glitter
Healing Word: See Cure Wounds
Identify: You've heard about this somewhere, just take a moment to think back
Longstrider: Cardio pays off
Speak with Animals: It's just a matter of reading body language
Hideous Laughter: Some comedy transcends cultural/language barriers

[CantigThimble]

I don't mean to be rude, but is there any particular reason you're jumping through these hoops instead of just making a nonmagical character? (Mastermind rogues are good mundane supports)

[Trustypeaches]

Just because your character uses magic doesn’t mean they have to believe in it.

That actually sounds like a really funny character concept.

[DSCrankshaw]

I don't mean to be rude, but is there any particular reason you're jumping through these hoops instead of just making a nonmagical character? (Mastermind rogues are good mundane supports)


That actually sounds like a really funny character concept.

This. Also, PHB only, so no Mastermind rogues.

Mainly, I wanted to play a bard, and started thinking about how one would work in a low magic world, and it occurred to me that a lot of bard spells really center around being extra persuasive. And I rolled well enough to make a dwarf bard viable. So I thought a dwarf bard stubborn enough to not believe in magic might make a fun character.

[Knaight]

Just because your character uses magic doesn’t mean they have to believe in it.

That actually sounds like a really funny character concept.

I've had fun with it before - specifically a magical alchemist convinced they were just a chemist, doing what any chemist could do in a field full of hacks.

[CantigThimble]

Hm, well, just a word of warning: In my experience, gimmicky character concepts like this tend to be good for a few laughs but lacking in real longevity as characters once the joke gets old.

But if you're serious about this and you think you can make it work then feel free to ignore me.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Hm, well, just a word of warning: In my experience, gimmicky character concepts like this tend to be good for a few laughs but lacking in real longevity as characters once the joke gets old.

Counterpoint. (https://i.redd.it/ksg1p768kjt11.png)

[Toadkiller]

The nice thing is that if it gets old the character can gradually start changing their view. Or maybe there is a big watershed and they suddenly change their view or, or, or.

Lots of ways to go with a character concept.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Blade Ward: Its already an alternative to the Dodge action, it's like a defensive stance
Friends: A quick word and friendly smile, before the person realizes they've been duped
Mending: You're just a good handyman
Message: Like Rogue's Cant, but you're not a thief
True Strike: You take a moment to study your opponent, it's like the help action on yourself

Animal Friendship: Raw animal magnetism, but doesn't last forever
Bane: Cruel mistress luck shuns those around you
Charm Person: see Friends
Comprehend languages: You're a bit of a polyglot, or at least know enough to get by
Cure Wounds: "Ah, you'll be right. A stiff drink is all you need!"
Disguise Self: You're just that good with that disguise kit
Faerie Fire: Don't tell anyone, but it's just glitter
Healing Word: See Cure Wounds
Identify: You've heard about this somewhere, just take a moment to think back
Longstrider: Cardio pays off
Speak with Animals: It's just a matter of reading body language
Hideous Laughter: Some comedy transcends cultural/language barriers

Dissonant Wispers: You are very scary.
Visios Mukery:You really know how to hurt someone filling.

I don't use English most of the time and don't have time to correct myself.

[Crl1981]

Casters usually have a bunch of spell components - get creative. Reveal Invisibility - “By Moradin’s beard all will be revealed!!!” annnd chuck a handful of baby powder at that spot. Web - chuck a decanter of glue with a spider web in it that he prepared that morning. Fireball have him chuck a M80.

[JackPhoenix]

Counterpoint. (https://i.redd.it/ksg1p768kjt11.png)

What does it counter? The character, despite using the same visual, is clearly much more serious in the lower panels, supporting that the gimmick got boring after a while.

[DSCrankshaw]

I prefer to think of it as a hook, rather than a gimmick. It's unusual and interesting, and presents a number of roleplay opportunities. Depending on what happens in the campaign, it'll probably fail eventually. But in a play-by-post campaign, that can take months, even years. I once had a 4e bard who spent an entire campaign searching for the mythical ling, from which halflings were descended.

Even the dramatic end in that comic took until session 40, and doesn't tell us when that character gave up the gimmick, if he ever really did--the noble sacrifice may have been his way of saying he was tired of the character and wanted one without that gimmick.

[Keravath]

I think the interesting aspect to the character will be its development.

Although I think starting out with no real belief in magic can make sense. As the character progresses and the spells become more powerful (and the spells used by their opponents become more powerful) it will reach a point where it is impossible to deny the existence of magic. The question is does the player and the DM support such a progression or is it supposed to remain a low magic campaign/world.

Role playing the eye opening experience of learning to tap into their force of will to affect the world around them through the application of spells could be a lot of fun. Trying to pretend an ongoing disbelief in magic as the character levels up would probably just be frustrating.

This gets particularly noticeable with a variety of spells and cantrips that you may want to play with ...
- shatter
- blindness/deafness
- hypnotic pattern (area of effect mesmerize ... a bit harder to explain away ... though perhaps possible)
- fireball
- counterspell/dispel magic
- silent image
- minor illusion

- suggestion and phantasmal force ... since these are again "in the mind" you might be able to explain them away ... though having a creature react to an imaginary situation you create is a bit far fetched too.

Even with a careful choice of spells, the character will likely figure out that they are doing something more than just being convincing.

[AHF]

I'd add Feather Fall as another level one spell you could take and Prestidigitation as another cantrip (many of these abilities are similar to 'illusions' created on the stage of a play in real life; you are a masterful cook, you can clean clothes way faster than anyone else, etc.). For feather fall, just have an umbrella or cloak or something else handy that acts as a parachute.

Level 2 -

Calm Emotions (talking them down)
Detect Thoughts (you can read people so well you can actually visualize what they are thinking)
Enhance Ability (your pep talks, etc. help people really focus themselves on a task)
Entrall (aren't all your performances mesmerizing?)
Knock (you sure can pick a lock)
Lessor Restoration (you've got a knack for improvising cures from your bag of herbs)
Locate Animals or Plants (study the terrain and the target and you can determine the likely direction)
Phantasmal Force (like with other charms or illusions you have always been able to convince people to believe what you tell them)
Pyrotechnics (bring along some suitable material and you can coax them into a show!)
See Invisibility (there is no such thing as invisibility and you know because you can usually work out where someone is hiding even when they use really good camouflage)
Suggestion (you can talk people into anything)
Warding Wind (you sure are lucky that storm blew through at just the right moment!)
Zone of Truth (when you apply some pressure, people have a really hard time lying to you)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Most Enchantment-y things should work out for you, as well as stuff that deals psychic damage, and the Bard's got plenty of that. Bonus points for taking Dispel Magic/Counterspell and making "magic's not real" as the verbal component.

[Boci]

What does it counter? The character, despite using the same visual, is clearly much more serious in the lower panels, supporting that the gimmick got boring after a while.

Despite the same visuals? The visuals are the gimmick, plus the backstory, which is presumably unchanged. Yeah they got more serious, which contrasts with the name and visuals staying the same. Also the "I know" is likely a Star Wars reference, so the character is likely still joking around right up to death.

Having a gimmick doesn't mean your character can never be taken serious. The bard who never believes in amgic can sacrifice their lives to save the party in session 40 whilst still continuing to not believe in their own magic and it will still be emotional for most people.

[Thrudd]

I'm pretty sure casting spells requires speaking or singing particular magical incantations and very often includes making precise physical gestures with your hands (you always need a hand free to cast a spell w/a somatic or material component). It doesn't matter if the effect is subtle enough to fool someone, the act of creating the effect clearly requires an activity that the character only knows because he's learned how to cast magic spells. Except in very specific cases, like vicious mockery, where it seems reasonable to think that the spells's verbal component is the actual mockery that affects the target, a spell's verbal part would be some sort of magic word in a special language the spell caster had to learn or receive as revelation/intuition. The indivudual doesnt get to invent what the spell's components are- these are spells with consistent and predictable effects that are known and taught by other people in the world. If you used different words from everyone else, the spell wouldnt work.

I don't think it's reasonable for any spellcasting character to disbelieve in magic or to be unaware that what they're doing is casting spells. Unless the DM makes this setting different, and this bard is the only bard in the world and nobody else uses the same spells as him, because all his magic sprang spontaneously and from him in a way totally unique to him.

[Vogie]

I don't think it's reasonable for any spellcasting character to disbelieve in magic or to be unaware that what they're doing is casting spells. Unless the DM makes this setting different, and this bard is the only bard in the world and nobody else uses the same spells as him, because all his magic sprang spontaneously and from him in a way totally unique to him.

It all depends on the roleplay. It's quite easy to play a Magic-less Wizard by just refluffing spells as sufficiently advanced technology, provided the player can roleplay it strongly.


Most Enchantment-y things should work out for you, as well as stuff that deals psychic damage, and the Bard's got plenty of that. Bonus points for taking Dispel Magic/Counterspell and making "magic's not real" as the verbal component.

Oooh, I love the "Power of Disbelief"

[DSCrankshaw]

I'm pretty sure casting spells requires speaking or singing particular magical incantations and very often includes making precise physical gestures with your hands (you always need a hand free to cast a spell w/a somatic or material component). It doesn't matter if the effect is subtle enough to fool someone, the act of creating the effect clearly requires an activity that the character only knows because he's learned how to cast magic spells. Except in very specific cases, like vicious mockery, where it seems reasonable to think that the spells's verbal component is the actual mockery that affects the target, a spell's verbal part would be some sort of magic word in a special language the spell caster had to learn or receive as revelation/intuition. The indivudual doesnt get to invent what the spell's components are- these are spells with consistent and predictable effects that are known and taught by other people in the world. If you used different words from everyone else, the spell wouldnt work.

I don't think it's reasonable for any spellcasting character to disbelieve in magic or to be unaware that what they're doing is casting spells. Unless the DM makes this setting different, and this bard is the only bard in the world and nobody else uses the same spells as him, because all his magic sprang spontaneously and from him in a way totally unique to him.


Ideally, just spells with V. Since there are only so many of those, just avoid M. You can sell it as you just being persuasive. If S is included, you’re simply adding a “please” with your hands together as if praying or an “or else” with a shaking of the fist.

Precisely. A lot of bard spells only have a verbal component. Vicious Mockery and Dissonant Whispers, specifically, which spell out the verbal component. Healing Word, too, which can be re-fluffed along the lines of "Most people aren't anywhere near as injured as they think they are. As long as you reassure them that they're all right, they'll be back into the fight in no time." That's basically how the Commander's Healing Word was treated in 4e.

One of the reasons I'm asking for help is to identify more spells like this, and suggestions on how to refluff other spells so I can get away with limited somatic and material components. I specifically rejected Tasha's Hideous Laughter because of its material component.

And the campaign is really low magic. There are no casters in the world who know spells beyond 2nd level. There have been five paladins in the history of the world, and they were all considered saints. A cleric who actually casts spells is considered a miracle worker and prophet. My bard went to a college for skalds, and he's never met a bard who can cast spells. I'm not sure what the DM is planning for when we reach 5th level, though it's quite possible that he's not planning for the campaign to last that long.

[Thrudd]

It all depends on the roleplay. It's quite easy to play a Magic-less Wizard by just refluffing spells as sufficiently advanced technology, provided the player can roleplay it strongly.


It actually isnt easy to do a magic-less wizard, unless you mean that spells and spell casting works exactly the same, but what people call magic isn't really "magic" because there's some fictional super science that explains it. This is pretty much the case no matter what, it's just a matter of semantics.

If you mean that you're going to change the wizard into someone that uses super-science gadgets intead of casting spells, that is a major change to the setting and has major implications for the rules that requires homebrew, not a thing you can do easily off the cuff.

The player's ability to role play is irrelevant to this- spells work a certain way no matter how a player acts.

[ChildofLuthic]

I don't think it's reasonable for any spellcasting character to disbelieve in magic or to be unaware that what they're doing is casting spells. Unless the DM makes this setting different, and this bard is the only bard in the world and nobody else uses the same spells as him,

I mean, it's a low-magic setting, so it's conceivable that he's never encountered magic before.

[Thrudd]

I mean, it's a low-magic setting, so it's conceivable that he's never encountered magic before.

But he definitely has, because he actually knows how to do magic. Someone or something taught him bardic magic. It's only conceivable for non-magic using characters. For him to not know what he's doing is magic, he must be delusional. Unless the DM is very loose with the idea of spell components (verbal, somatic, etc), or has it that this character is the only/first bard and is in the process of discovering/inventing bardic magic spontaneously.

[DSCrankshaw]

As I already said, my character has never met a bard who could do magic. Or anyone who can do magic. There's no one who could have taught him. That's the setting.

The DM has already approved the concept, so arguing I can't is missing the point. I chose this concept specifically for this setting, where most people have never met anyone who can do magic. Besides, you're reading a lot into the rules which aren't there. There's nothing in the rules that say bards can't be self-taught, any more than sorcerers, or for that matter, musicians can't be self-taught. And as the PHB doesn't say what the verbal and somatic components have to be, there's no rules that it has to be something that can't be stumbled into by accident. How would sorcerers figure it out, otherwise?

As for there being spells where that just isn't plausible, that's why I made this post! Help me choose spells where it's plausible.

I've got Vicious Mockery and Dissonant Whispers. Possibly Healing Word, but I think the DM isn't allowing healing magic. What else? PHB only.

[JackPhoenix]

Vicious Mockery, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Blindness/Deafness, Knock, Dimension Door, Geas, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Teleport, Glibness, Power Word: Stun and PW: Kill.

Complete list of PHB bard spells that are verbal only.

[DSCrankshaw]

Vicious Mockery, Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Blindness/Deafness, Knock, Dimension Door, Geas, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Teleport, Glibness, Power Word: Stun and PW: Kill.

Complete list of PHB bard spells that are verbal only.
Thanks, that's helpful. Not all of them will be useful while he's still in his disbelieving phase (I do intend for him to realize "Magic is real!" at some point). While these may be verbal only, a lot are not at all subtle.

I'm going to have to mix in some with somatic components, I suppose. I'll have to think about what kind of gestures can be explained away. I was thinking Blade Ward could work if I treat it as a Dwarven good luck sign or religious symbol--something like crossing yourself.

[AHF]

As I already said, my character has never met a bard who could do magic. Or anyone who can do magic. There's no one who could have taught him. That's the setting.

The DM has already approved the concept, so arguing I can't is missing the point. I chose this concept specifically for this setting, where most people have never met anyone who can do magic. Besides, you're reading a lot into the rules which aren't there. There's nothing in the rules that say bards can't be self-taught, any more than sorcerers, or for that matter, musicians can't be self-taught. And as the PHB doesn't say what the verbal and somatic components have to be, there's no rules that it has to be something that can't be stumbled into by accident. How would sorcerers figure it out, otherwise?

As for there being spells where that just isn't plausible, that's why I made this post! Help me choose spells where it's plausible.

I've got Vicious Mockery and Dissonant Whispers. Possibly Healing Word, but I think the DM isn't allowing healing magic. What else? PHB only.

I think these give you a pretty list of cantrips, first and second level spells that work to varying degrees (many quite easily and a few being a bigger reach) with a DM approving a refluffing of the spells to fit your concept:


Blade Ward: Its already an alternative to the Dodge action, it's like a defensive stance
Friends: A quick word and friendly smile, before the person realizes they've been duped
Mending: You're just a good handyman
Message: Like Rogue's Cant, but you're not a thief
True Strike: You take a moment to study your opponent, it's like the help action on yourself

Animal Friendship: Raw animal magnetism, but doesn't last forever
Bane: Cruel mistress luck shuns those around you
Charm Person: see Friends
Comprehend languages: You're a bit of a polyglot, or at least know enough to get by
Cure Wounds: "Ah, you'll be right. A stiff drink is all you need!"
Disguise Self: You're just that good with that disguise kit
Faerie Fire: Don't tell anyone, but it's just glitter
Healing Word: See Cure Wounds
Identify: You've heard about this somewhere, just take a moment to think back
Longstrider: Cardio pays off
Speak with Animals: It's just a matter of reading body language
Hideous Laughter: Some comedy transcends cultural/language barriers



I'd add Feather Fall as another level one spell you could take and Prestidigitation as another cantrip (many of these abilities are similar to 'illusions' created on the stage of a play in real life; you are a masterful cook, you can clean clothes way faster than anyone else, etc.). For feather fall, just have an umbrella or cloak or something else handy that acts as a parachute.

Level 2 -

Calm Emotions (talking them down)
Detect Thoughts (you can read people so well you can actually visualize what they are thinking)
Enhance Ability (your pep talks, etc. help people really focus themselves on a task)
Entrall (aren't all your performances mesmerizing?)
Knock (you sure can pick a lock)
Lessor Restoration (you've got a knack for improvising cures from your bag of herbs)
Locate Animals or Plants (study the terrain and the target and you can determine the likely direction)
Phantasmal Force (like with other charms or illusions you have always been able to convince people to believe what you tell them)
Pyrotechnics (bring along some suitable material and you can coax them into a show!)
See Invisibility (there is no such thing as invisibility and you know because you can usually work out where someone is hiding even when they use really good camouflage)
Suggestion (you can talk people into anything)
Warding Wind (you sure are lucky that storm blew through at just the right moment!)
Zone of Truth (when you apply some pressure, people have a really hard time lying to you)