Messy Cleric multiclass - am I dumb?

[Jarmen4u]

Hi Playground,

My mind goes all over the place when I'm looking at character ideas, and I often end up with 30-40 browser tabs referencing different spells, classes, feats, handbooks, etc. full of things I want to try out and put together.

I'll see if I can retrace my train of thought:

I want to plan out a Radiant Servant, for some persisted self-buff fun, but I don't know if I'll have access to Nightsticks (probably not). So, how to key TU attempts off Wis instead of Cha, I found a thread pointing to the feat "Serenity," which requires Divine Grace, a Paladin class feature. Said thread suggested 2-3 levels in the PrC paladin (which only loses 1 level of casting). This feat also keys Divine Grace (Cha to saves) to Wis as well. Then, while reading a thread about bonuses from Wis etc, I found a reference for Sacred Fist, and thought that seemed really interesting. Is there some way to combine these to have some sort of holy buffed-like-crazy unarmed combatant that reaches into high OP territory? In the game I attend, we frequently run into enemies that outclass us significantly, though the DM encourages us to have strong characters, it rarely seems like enough. Is this something I could do with these classes, or would I be best sticking to cleric/radiant servant and just buffing myself with spells and leave it at that?

[Khedrac]

Remember that you have to get DM approval for prestige paladin - going by RAW it cannot co-exist in a game with normal paladins so if there is a single player or NPC already a paladin it's not on the table.

[Kayblis]

Unarmed combat is very resource intensive, from feats to money to class levels. Having it as your main combat focus while also keeping full casting will be very hard, specially with Persistent shenanigans which also consume resources.

I'd suggest focusing on armed combat. Other than that, 2 feats and 2 levels of PrCs for Paladin(it requires Mounted Combat as a feat to enter) is not what I'd call "worth it". Wis to TU is good, but in the low end that's two Extra Turnings you're not getting(that, depending on your DM, might help you so much more if you can use Turn attempts from other pools to Persist stuff). The BAB requirement also places it right into good PrC levels, so you're losing something to pick those 2 levels of Paladin. The only thing that may be worth the trouble is Wis to saves, but as a Persist-focused Cleric your saves aren't a big problem for you.

Talk to your DM about how to interpret Divine MM. If you can use other pools, both of your domains should go to pool domains like Fire and Air. If not, get the Planning Domain and maybe the Extra Turning one(forgot the name).

[Jarmen4u]

Unarmed combat is very resource intensive, from feats to money to class levels. Having it as your main combat focus while also keeping full casting will be very hard, specially with Persistent shenanigans which also consume resources.

I'd suggest focusing on armed combat. Other than that, 2 feats and 2 levels of PrCs for Paladin(it requires Mounted Combat as a feat to enter) is not what I'd call "worth it". Wis to TU is good, but in the low end that's two Extra Turnings you're not getting(that, depending on your DM, might help you so much more if you can use Turn attempts from other pools to Persist stuff). The BAB requirement also places it right into good PrC levels, so you're losing something to pick those 2 levels of Paladin. The only thing that may be worth the trouble is Wis to saves, but as a Persist-focused Cleric your saves aren't a big problem for you.

Talk to your DM about how to interpret Divine MM. If you can use other pools, both of your domains should go to pool domains like Fire and Air. If not, get the Planning Domain and maybe the Extra Turning one(forgot the name).

I'll see about the pools of turning, but, neither the Air or Fire domains are available to worshipers of Pelor. What of his available domains are best to take for your suggestion?

[bean illus]

I don't know WHY it has to be elf, but ...

Human
Cleric2/monk2/Ordained Champion1/Xx

Nets 5 feats, but loses 3 caster levels.

[Falontani]

Cleric, prestige paladin, ordained champion, monk, argent fist, sacred fist.
Cleric gives you domains and spellcasting. Prestige pally only enough to enter argent fist. Monk you only need 1 level. Argent Fist is lovely, and allows you to wear armor, shield, and weapon while still doing the monk stuff. Ordained champion for all your melee needs, and sacred fist to round it out

[PrismCat21]

Remember that you have to get DM approval for prestige paladin - going by RAW it cannot co-exist in a game with normal paladins so if there is a single player or NPC already a paladin it's not on the table.

According to what???
Unearthed Arcana suggests that the standard version of the class be unavailable. Not requires it.
If you use any alternate class features, variants, or racial substitution levels, you're no longer using the standard version of the class. So, "by RAW", even that suggestion no longer applies.

[Anthrowhale]

If you take the Pride domain (apparently allowed for Pelor per Dragon Magazine #323) it pairs well with Prestige Paladin + Serenity. Your odds of failing a save fall to 1 in 400. Divine Oracle 2 is also natural and complementary providing virtual immunity to reflex saves, even in armor.

For combat, remember that you can persist divine power so a full BAB class is not really needed. For double turning pools, consider taking the Destroy Undead or Rebuke Dragons ACF then later taking a level of Sacred Exorcist. Also remember that you can double persisted spells again through a rod of extend spell. For a wisdom-focused combatant take the Intuitive Attack feat and consider enhancing damage via a friendly wizard casting Greater Mighty Wallop.

[AnimeTheCat]

According to what???
Unearthed Arcana suggests that the standard version of the class be unavailable. Not requires it.
If you use any alternate class features, variants, or racial substitution levels, you're no longer using the standard version of the class. So, "by RAW", even that suggestion no longer applies.

Because you have to get DM approval to do anything in the game because of Rule 0, if nothing else? If the DM doesn't want it in the game or world, that's the DM's perogative.

When I DM, I require all of my players to give me their character sheets to approve, ammend, or ask questions about as necessary and, if they use something that isn't available to them (due to sources, or other game world reasons) I explain it to them and then help find an appropriate alternative.

EDIT: also, you're supposed to get DM approval for ANY prestige class. DMG pg 179 says:

Prestige classes are purely optional and always under the purview of the DM. We encourage you, as the DM, to tightly limit the prestige classes available in your campaign. The example prestige classes are certainly not all encompassing or definitive. They might not even be appropriate for your campaign. The best prestige classes for your campaign are the ones you tailor make yourself.
sooo.... there's a direct quote as to what says Prestige Paladin (a Prestige Class) must have DM approval.

[PrismCat21]

-snip-

Why don't you try again with the appropriate context. The context being the statement I was directly replying to.
They made a claim and tried to back it up with what they thought a source said. They likely remembered incorrectly.
Context matters. Use it. - Your post ignores the conditions used by both me and Khedrac. You lost.

[AnimeTheCat]

Why don't you try again with the appropriate context. The context being the statement I was directly replying to.
They made a claim and tried to back it up with what they thought a source said. They likely remembered incorrectly.
Context matters. Use it. - Your post ignores the conditions used by both me and Khedrac. You lost.

excuse me, but could you explain? As I see it the context is:

Khedrac: "You have to get DM approval for Prestige Paladin..."
PrismCat21: "According to What???"
Me: "DMG says you need DM approval for ANY prestige class, Prestige Paladin included."

Explain how i "lost" if you will?

OP: Do you want a high OP fister cleric or is it more that you just want a high OP cleric?

[Jarmen4u]

OP: Do you want a high OP fister cleric or is it more that you just want a high OP cleric?

Preferably the former, but if it's too much hassle without much benefit, the fister part can be dropped. I just like the concept :smallbiggrin:

[AnimeTheCat]

Preferably the former, but if it's too much hassle without much benefit, the fister part can be dropped. I just like the concept :smallbiggrin:

Well, getting decent damage out of unarmed combat isn't the most difficult because of the Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike. You can get wisdom to attack from Intuitive attack (BoED pg 44). I think that trying to stack wisdom to damage won't really net you too much. You'll probably need to get Power Attack in there somewhere, and Lion's Charge is going to need to get on your list somehow too so that you can full attack after a charge. Then Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Improved Bull Rush, etc will almost certainly be necessary. Even with keying Turn Undead off of Wisdom, you'll likely only be getting enough TU attempts per day to persist one buff. It may be better to just get DMM: Extend, as extended spell is only a +1 spell level adjustment and at higher levels only the spells that are rounds per level will really be a problem, but honestly with divinations you should be able to set the stage yourself and be ready with buffs already set.

the DMM: Persist plan usually works best with less other investment, like two handing, because to be effective you only need one feat - Power Attack.

Does your DM allow flaws to get more feats at the start of the game? Also, are you tied to the idea of being a Cleric, or would other classes be acceptable as long as they are fist-based gish types? Is the idea specifically to be a Radiant Servant PrC, or could you be a Radiant Servant is fluff text?

[Jarmen4u]

Well, getting decent damage out of unarmed combat isn't the most difficult because of the Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike. You can get wisdom to attack from Intuitive attack (BoED pg 44). I think that trying to stack wisdom to damage won't really net you too much. You'll probably need to get Power Attack in there somewhere, and Lion's Charge is going to need to get on your list somehow too so that you can full attack after a charge. Then Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Improved Bull Rush, etc will almost certainly be necessary. Even with keying Turn Undead off of Wisdom, you'll likely only be getting enough TU attempts per day to persist one buff. It may be better to just get DMM: Extend, as extended spell is only a +1 spell level adjustment and at higher levels only the spells that are rounds per level will really be a problem, but honestly with divinations you should be able to set the stage yourself and be ready with buffs already set.

the DMM: Persist plan usually works best with less other investment, like two handing, because to be effective you only need one feat - Power Attack.

Does your DM allow flaws to get more feats at the start of the game? Also, are you tied to the idea of being a Cleric, or would other classes be acceptable as long as they are fist-based gish types? Is the idea specifically to be a Radiant Servant PrC, or could you be a Radiant Servant is fluff text?

DM doesn't allow flaws, no. I wanted to be a Cleric/RSoP because I've played a DMM RS in the past and it was a lot of fun, and felt very powerful (we stopped around level 10). I think the main point of radiant servant for the DMM stuff is the extra TU attempts, so I think I'd only need to take a single level in it for that. I'm not terribly attached to the "fluff" of any of the classes, I was just going with what I know, which is, to a small extent, the insane power of a self-buffed Cleric.

This character will, ideally, make it to epic levels relatively quickly, and I want to be able to solo (relying on my party is not a great idea with my current group) a demon/deity if necessary (last big challenge we had was fighting Juiblex, which didn't go well, and my Incantatrix/IoTSV got her ass kicked).

[Jarmen4u]

Curious to hear more feedback based on my recent reply. Is there any other real reason to go further than 1 level into Radiant servant, since AFAIK the main draw is extra TU attempts? Is there a better non-Cleric way to have a self-reliant self-buffed persisted wrecking machine?

[OgresAreCute]

Curious to hear more feedback based on my recent reply. Is there any other real reason to go further than 1 level into Radiant servant, since AFAIK the main draw is extra TU attempts? Is there a better non-Cleric way to have a self-reliant self-buffed persisted wrecking machine?

For self-buffing, you could check out Incantatrix (which you already tried) or Spelldancer.

For TU, you can take dips in classes that give bonus domains like Contemplative or Sovereign Speaker and take domains that give separate turning pools, like the elemental domains or the ooze domain.

[Jarmen4u]

For self-buffing, you could check out Incantatrix (which you already tried) or Spelldancer.

For TU, you can take dips in classes that give bonus domains like Contemplative or Sovereign Speaker and take domains that give separate turning pools, like the elemental domains or the ooze domain.

Yeah I'm more interested in divine buffing for this character, which is why I'm leaning into cleric. And I feel like my DM is the type to enforce only selecting domains that belong to my deity, so that might not work out.

Though, my above questions still stand. *Is* there a reason to take more than one level in RSOP? Also still looking forward to hearing more feedback about the build.

[Quertus]

I want to be able to solo (relying on my party is not a great idea with my current group) a demon/deity if necessary (last big challenge we had was fighting Juiblex, which didn't go well, and my Incantatrix/IoTSV got her ass kicked).

So... What do you mean by saying that you can't rely on your party? Is your party lower-op than you? Are they teamwork-inept? Are they a bunch of PKing ****s? Understanding what you mean will help answer your questions.

If one of the former reasons, have you considered being a party-buffing Cleric instead of just a self-buffing Cleric?

[Jarmen4u]

So... What do you mean by saying that you can't rely on your party? Is your party lower-op than you? Are they teamwork-inept? Are they a bunch of PKing ****s? Understanding what you mean will help answer your questions.

If one of the former reasons, have you considered being a party-buffing Cleric instead of just a self-buffing Cleric?

I didn't mean it maliciously, sorry. The OP level is all over the place, which is encouraged so it doesn't really matter. I considered doing party-buffing, but I like the spotlight. As far as they go though, sometimes they don't make the best decisions. And... the last 3 characters I've made have ended up being the leader of the group, despite trying to have different personalities, because nobody wanted to make any big decisions and anytime there was a major choice, it would devolve into 30-40 minutes of mumbling and back-and-forth with no outcome. I just realized this is starting to sound like the thesis for an essay so I'm going to stop myself before I get too deep into it, but I'll end by saying, I've personally reversed 2 TPKs, both caused by another party member doing something stupid; further, I've witnessed over 20 PCs die over the life of my last character, ALSO due to stupid choices

Breaking artifact rod over leg to kill enemy results in AOE bomb, I was right on the edge of the blast so I only had my back singed off. I used a cursed greater wish ring to revive party; PC throws magic-killing rock into ancient tower full of epic-level runes, DM starts to describe the radius of the explosion, I ask to make a reflex save to slap the rock out of his hand, pass by a mile; other PC tries to use unknown technomagical gun(?) to shoot hole in sturdy door at end of small hallway, gun malfunctions and detonates, killing that guy and the PC and PC #3's familiar behind him. Didn't have a chance to save those guys.

I suppose I wouldn't mind being a party buffer, so long as I can point them all in the right direction and just say "kill it." I've always wanted to try War Weaver as well, but I'm of the opinion that divine buffs are way stronger than arcane buffs, and I'm not 100% sure how to work those two together.

[Anthrowhale]

RSoP 2-10 are ok, but not particularly compelling. Divine Oracle 10 for example is much better.

The advantage of being a buffer cleric is that you can equilibriate the optimization level in your party. Buffer cleric is not incompatible with being in a primary actor role as long as you make buffing happen out of your primary turn via DMM[Persist] or DMM[Quicken]. If you are concerned about arcane access, then using the Spell domain is quite helpful via (Greater) Anyspell. However, to use DMM, spells must be divine implying a need for Alternate Source Spell (Dragon #325) or Southern Magician (Faerun, Shining South).

If I was trying to make a buffer cleric, I'd probably do something like:

Human Cloistered Cleric 3 [Planning, Spell, Knowledge, Rebuke Dragons ACF]/Church Inquisitor 2[Inquisition]/Divine Oracle 2[Oracle]/Sacred Exorcist 1 [Turn Undead]/Dweomer Keeper 2/Contemplative 1[Envy]/Dweomer Keeper 8/Hierophant 1
With feats:
Planning: Extend Spell
1. Persist spell
Human: DMM[Persist Spell]
3. Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell]
Frog God's Fane: Skill Focus[Knowledge[Religion]]
6. Alternate Source Spell
9,12,15,18: Extra Turning

This provides access to all cleric spells, many domain spells, all arcane spells L1-2 (Anyspell) and L3-5 (Greater Anyspell), all spells L5- and wizard spells L6- (Limited Wish + Supernatural Spell), and all spells L6- + wizard spells L8- (Wish + Supernatural Spell) while providing 2 turning pools and a reducing the cost of DMM[Persistent spell] by 2. Stocking up on rods of extend spell allows you to double the number of active spells and Hierophant provides Divine Reach which converts many spells to a fixed range of 30' making them eligible for persistent spell.

This may be to much for your campaign but hopefully this makes you aware of relevant options.

[Jarmen4u]

RSoP 2-10 are ok, but not particularly compelling. Divine Oracle 10 for example is much better.

The advantage of being a buffer cleric is that you can equilibriate the optimization level in your party. Buffer cleric is not incompatible with being in a primary actor role as long as you make buffing happen out of your primary turn via DMM[Persist] or DMM[Quicken]. If you are concerned about arcane access, then using the Spell domain is quite helpful via (Greater) Anyspell. However, to use DMM, spells must be divine implying a need for Alternate Source Spell (Dragon #325) or Southern Magician (Faerun, Shining South).

If I was trying to make a buffer cleric, I'd probably do something like:

Human Cloistered Cleric 3 [Planning, Spell, Knowledge, Rebuke Dragons ACF]/Church Inquisitor 2[Inquisition]/Divine Oracle 2[Oracle]/Sacred Exorcist 1 [Turn Undead]/Dweomer Keeper 2/Contemplative 1[Envy]/Dweomer Keeper 8/Hierophant 1
With feats:
Planning: Extend Spell
1. Persist spell
Human: DMM[Persist Spell]
3. Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell]
Frog God's Fane: Skill Focus[Knowledge[Religion]]
6. Alternate Source Spell
9,12,15,18: Extra Turning

This provides access to all cleric spells, many domain spells, all arcane spells L1-2 (Anyspell) and L3-5 (Greater Anyspell), all spells L5- and wizard spells L6- (Limited Wish + Supernatural Spell), and all spells L6- + wizard spells L8- (Wish + Supernatural Spell) while providing 2 turning pools and a reducing the cost of DMM[Persistent spell] by 2. Stocking up on rods of extend spell allows you to double the number of active spells and Hierophant provides Divine Reach which converts many spells to a fixed range of 30' making them eligible for persistent spell.

This may be to much for your campaign but hopefully this makes you aware of relevant options.

:smalleek: Whoa that's a lot of info. I'll start parsing it best I can, but if you don't mind humoring me, what are you trying to get out of those dips? I'm not familiar with most of those. For example, are you taking the levels of Inquisitor for the immunity to charms? Or the detect evil at will? Something else?

[ExLibrisMortis]

:smalleek: Whoa that's a lot of info. I'll start parsing it best I can, but if you don't mind humoring me, what are you trying to get out of those dips? I'm not familiar with most of those. For example, are you taking the levels of Inquisitor for the immunity to charms? Or the detect evil at will? Something else?
Inquisition domain, +4 on Dispel checks. It's easy to qualify, available early, and a straight upgrade from cleric 4-5.

Planning: Extend Spell.
Spell: anyspell and greater anyspell.
Knowledge: from Cloistered Cleric.
Oracle: +2 CL on divinations.
Envy: Wish and limited wish. Magic jar and simulacrum, too. Very, very powerful spells, all.

Sacred Exorcist: Provides the TU you traded away for Rebuke Dragons. Double turning pools!

[Jarmen4u]

Inquisition domain, +4 on Dispel checks. It's easy to qualify, available early, and a straight upgrade from cleric 4-5.

Planning: Extend Spell.
Spell: anyspell and greater anyspell.
Knowledge: from Cloistered Cleric.
Oracle: +2 CL on divinations.
Envy: Wish and limited wish. Magic jar and simulacrum, too. Very, very powerful spells, all.

Sacred Exorcist: Provides the TU you traded away for Rebuke Dragons. Double turning pools!

Ah, grabbing the extra domains, I see. Would a self-buffing cleric be making a lot of dispel checks? Or the +2 CL on divinations? I'm not too experienced with playing Clerics, so I want to make sure I'm doing everything I should be doing.

I don't remember if I mentioned it, but there is another cleric in the party currently who acts as a healer/support, so would I be able to trade that level in Hierophant for something else? I'm not sure how much I'd be using Divine Reach if I'm mostly focusing on myself. :thinking:

[ExLibrisMortis]

Ah, grabbing the extra domains, I see. Would a self-buffing cleric be making a lot of dispel checks? Or the +2 CL on divinations? I'm not too experienced with playing Clerics, so I want to make sure I'm doing everything I should be doing.

I don't remember if I mentioned it, but there is another cleric in the party currently who acts as a healer/support, so would I be able to trade that level in Hierophant for something else? I'm not sure how much I'd be using Divine Reach if I'm mostly focusing on myself. :thinking:
I'm just quoting the stuff I know off-hand; there will be useful spells on those domains, too. But divinations and dispels are core tools of any spellcaster, so those boosts are always good.

Divine Reach is exactly as useful for a self-buffer as for a party-buffer. You're not actually using the reach for the reach. Spells with a range of "touch" can't normally be Persisted, no matter what; with a range of 30', they become legal targets for Persist. Theoretically, it also allows you to cast, say, plane shift on targets 30' away, which can be helpful when evacuating, or literally sending someone to Hell from a window across the street.

[Anthrowhale]

...

Thanks, that's a good explanation. A couple more details:
1) Divine Oracle's Prescient Sense is a nice buff all by itself.
2) Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell makes buffs undispellable as well as enabling the use of Limited Wish/Wish by stripping XP costs.