The absurdity of demons

[Yahzi]

So a Succubus is a CR 7 encounter... that can, 30% of the time, summon a CR 9 Vrock for an hour. Which would then make it a CR 10 encounter.

We all know the CR system is inaccurate, but what was the value of making it downright random? If a low-level party wants to engage a Succubus they have a 30% chance of a TPK; on the other hand, any party that can handle a Vrock isn't going to waste time rolling dice against a lone Succubus.

I realize it's up to the DM but I hate that they literally require you to ignore the rules they wrote, unless you want to play the Random TPK Game.

/rant

[SLOTHRPG95]

I think there is a middle ground (in terms of power level) between trouncing a lone succubus and getting TPK'd by a Vrock. Furthermore, even if an average low-OP 7th-level party might lose in a fight against a Vrock if forced to fight it to the death in a featureless plane, that's not the situation at hand. In fact, even barring environmental factors, there's nothing saying a party can't make the tactically sound move and retreat if their confrontation with a Succubus they've been tracking suddenly turns into a fight with a Vrock. This is a level at which party Wizard can D-door out of line of sight. Bard/Sorcerer/Wizard can have brewed emergency potions of Invisibility for party members (or they could just buy them for 300 gp apiece). Haste allows anyone with 30 ft. base land speed to just straight-up outrun the thing. Heck, Magic Circle Against Evil (or Chaos) cast before the battle would be a sensible precaution before facing a Succubus (to block its Charm), and it backs up as a 50-50 chance (or so) of the Vrock not being able to strike with its natural weapons as your party flees.

tl; dr I'm not saying that the CR system is great. I just don't see this as a particularly egregious example.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Don't forget that summoning that Vrock is a 1-round action that can be interrupted. If the Succubus does not summon it prior to hostilities it has even lower than 30% chance of calling that Vrock to help.

[Mordaedil]

CR is at best a guideline and most of the time it is a really awful guideline.

I find it best to mostly ignore CR, much like I ignore WBL and other guidelines and just put things I find interesting or that I think would likely be where the players encounter them.

A problem I have with a lot of encounter tables is also that there's just way too few bandit encounters compared to what I imagine is most active in the world setting.

[Crake]

Don't forget that summoning that Vrock is a 1-round action that can be interrupted. If the Succubus does not summon it prior to hostilities it has even lower than 30% chance of calling that Vrock to help.

It's an SLA with no mention of an increased cast time, so it's actually a standard action.

That said, as a summon, it's uniquely vulnerable: It can be dispelled, it can be completely ignored with the application of a first level spell: protection from evil, and a third level spell: magic circle against evil will completely prevent it from approaching your party. It's no less "absurd" than coming up against an enemy druid who summons 1d4+1 dire crocodiles on your party.

It doesn't even have a listed caster level, so it's caster level is that of the succubus' HD: a measly 6. Such an easy dispel target, a level 5 inqusition domain cleric (just the kind of cleric who would be clearing out a succubus infestation) with arcane mastery could auto-dispel it.

[OgresAreCute]

Super swingy abilities like this are poor design, ain't no two ways about it. At least it wasn't the 3.0 succubus with a 10% chance of summoning a balor.

[Fizban]

I would virtually guarantee you those random summons are legacy mechanics from 2e or even 1e, long before CR was any sort of a thing. Leaving those mechanics in not so great, but . . . you can also just not use them. And/or award xp for anything summoned that way because you consider them extra challenges.

[Knaight]

It's swingy and obnoxious, but it's by no means a TPK - a CR 10 fight is a hard one for a level 7 party, but by no means impossible.

[Crake]

It's swingy and obnoxious, but it's by no means a TPK - a CR 10 fight is a hard one for a level 7 party, but by no means impossible.

Yes, but what about if you're using that succubus as a boss encounter for a level 4 party?

[Mordaedil]

Isn't that a bit like saying what if a tyrannosaurus rex shows up at the ball?

If you have a sucubus as a boss for a level 4 part, she doesn't summon her ally. Or she does, you use a fixed summon and she flees. Or she summons the Vrock and rides it out of the fight. You don't need to run the abilities straight, you can use it as a way to heighten the stakes when it calls for it, otherwise you just fudge the dice.

[Boci]

Yes, but what about if you're using that succubus as a boss encounter for a level 4 party?

You've made a questionable choice for a boss?

Fiendish Codex 2 at least suggested replacing the summoning with 2 bonus feats (though they were the powerful feat set relating to one of the 9 archdevils). A similar approach could be made for demons.

[Oblivionsmurf]

A Klurichir (FF p 48, FC1 p 157) is even worse. A CR 17 encounter that has a 100% chance of summoning 2 Balors (CR 20). That changes the encounter from EL17 to EL22.

Of course, an alternative reading of it is that the random (or sometimes not so random) summoning chance is built into the CR of the demon.

[Crake]

You've made a questionable choice for a boss?

Fiendish Codex 2 at least suggested replacing the summoning with 2 bonus feats (though they were the powerful feat set relating to one of the 9 archdevils). A similar approach could be made for demons.

It doesn't have to be a succubus, but the summoning ability makes practically ANY demon a bad choice for a boss, simply because they can make the encounter go from "Tough but beatable" to "well, we're screwed" if you don't have the appropriate counters.

Unless you're saying that ANY demon is a questionable choice for a boss? In which case I'd have to disagree, demons are quite quintessential final bosses.

[Boci]

but the summoning ability makes practically ANY demon a bad choice for a boss


Unless you're saying that ANY demon is a questionable choice for a boss? In which case I'd have to disagree, demons are quite quintessential final bosses.

No you don't disagree with me, as the first quote shows. If you use a demon as a boss and don't do something about the summoning, then you have made a poor choice as a DM.

[Crake]

No you don't disagree with me, as the first quote shows. If you use a demon as a boss and don't do something about the summoning, then you have made a poor choice as a DM.

Well, in my opinion, it's not my place as the DM to do something about the summoing, it's the players' job. Charge in headstrong without figuring out what you're going up against, and you'll have to deal with the consequences.

I've already mentioned earlier why I believe the summoning ability isn't THAT out of order.

[gkathellar]

No you don't disagree with me, as the first quote shows. If you use a demon as a boss and don't do something about the summoning, then you have made a poor choice as a DM.

And that's pretty clearly a problem, since demons should be serviceable as BBEGs.

[Mordaedil]

Dealing with it is also pretty easy, even if you follow the rules; the demon used it before the encounter with them happen, and they serve as a separate encounter before the final one.

Splitting them up works well, just need a reason to do so. And for a demon, there's plenty.

[Boci]

I've already mentioned earlier why I believe the summoning ability isn't THAT out of order.


but the summoning ability makes practically ANY demon a bad choice for a boss

So which is it? Because it cannot be both.


And that's pretty clearly a problem, since demons should be serviceable as BBEGs.

With some pretty easy solutions.

1. The boss demon was called to the fight and therefor cannot summon

2. Replace the summon ability of the boss, with say 2 feats like FC recommends, or 3 since you don't have the powerful Favoured ones from that book

3. The Boss's summoning automatically succeeds, calculate that into the CR along with the party's ability to deal with summonings

[Knaight]

No you don't disagree with me, as the first quote shows. If you use a demon as a boss and don't do something about the summoning, then you have made a poor choice as a DM.

"Practically" is a pretty key word there, though in this case it's more an edge case of how the most powerful demons can't summon demons more powerful than them.

[Crake]

So which is it? Because it cannot be both.

I suppose I should have prefaced that post with "According to you". I was following your argument to it's conclusion. Your statement was that a succubus was a bad choice for a boss encounter because of it's summon. I followed that through to the fact that many other demons, who would be more suitable boss encounters (because I agree succubi are not good boss encounters, though not for this reason) would still be equally bad by your standards, because of their summon ability.

It's a stance I disagree with.

[Boci]

I suppose I should have prefaced that post with "According to you". I was following your argument to it's conclusion. Your statement was that a succubus was a bad choice for a boss encounter because of it's summon. I followed that through to the fact that many other demons, who would be more suitable boss encounters (because I agree succubi are not good boss encounters, though not for this reason) would still be equally bad by your standards, because of their summon ability.

It's a stance I disagree with.

You need to go a bit further back. I was quoting you, saying:


Yes, but what about if you're using that succubus as a boss encounter for a level 4 party?

Your question was assuming this would be a problematic boss, otherwise why ask "But what if?". So you had already established that the choice was a bad one, I got that context from you.

[Willie the Duck]

I realize it's up to the DM but I hate that they literally require you to ignore the rules they wrote, unless you want to play the Random TPK Game.

On a basic level, the game has always had a huge amount of variation baked into it. Character creation includes random rolls. Levelling up has random rolls (for hp). Treasure received uses a huge amount of rolls, creating a huge variance in how much benefit one gets out of a certain difficulty of encounter (and post gp=xp, you no longer stay at a lower level, and thus likely challenges faced, if the dice have stiffed you on treasure gained). Monsters you run into have often been measured in '30-300 orcs,' and then their hit dice are rolled for random hit points.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong, just that it is the initial state, and the movement towards controlled situations is the newer development.

[Nifft]

When I've run demons as boss encounters, they'd almost always have already used their summoning ability -- that's a prime strikeforce minion, if you get it to appear you take action using that resource, if it doesn't appear then you delay the operation.

It's only when you're ambushing a demon in her own home (in the Abyss) that you'd expect her to use that summoning power right in front of you.

[martixy]

A Klurichir (FF p 48, FC1 p 157) is even worse. A CR 17 encounter that has a 100% chance of summoning 2 Balors (CR 20). That changes the encounter from EL17 to EL22.

Of course, an alternative reading of it is that the random (or sometimes not so random) summoning chance is built into the CR of the demon.

That's because the table you are looking at in FC1 is wrong.

In FF they are listed as a CR 25 encounter, which, given the 2 balors and other abilities seems appropriate(maybe even a over-CRed, given the whole 'nother ballgame that is epic).

[OgresAreCute]

That's because the table you are looking at in FC1 is wrong.

In FF they are listed as a CR 25 encounter, which, given the 2 balors and other abilities seems appropriate(maybe even a over-CRed, given the whole 'nother ballgame that is epic).

I believe they get knocked down to CR 17 in the update booklet.

[Zaq]

I’ll be honest: I’ve never seen a demon (or devil) use or try to use its summoning ability, whether I’m playing or GMing. The failure rate is just too high to be worth a monster’s time when they generally exist on-screen for a single encounter that’s usually only a handful of rounds long. I generally gloss over it and basically forget that it’s there.

I suppose that if the monster in question gets a buff round or can prep a well-timed ambush, they may as well try it from an in-game perspective, but I find it so impractical out of game that I’ve never even seen it.

I will freely concede that my implicit solution (i.e., forget that the random chance of summoning exists) is not the only way to play, and the specific problem presented in the OP is, admittedly, potentially troubling. It’s not really a save-or-die, but it’s at least occupying an adjacent space in game design terms: chance of the user wasting a turn and chance of the user having an arguably outsized effect on the flow of the encounter. Only with more paperwork, because now we have another combatant to worry about. I hate SoD effects as well, so I’m all in favor of just removing the ability or of altering it to be something more reasonable.

[Crake]

I believe they get knocked down to CR 17 in the update booklet.

I was just checking the update booklet, thinking that might be the case. No mention of a CR change, just DR.


I’ll be honest: I’ve never seen a demon (or devil) use or try to use its summoning ability, whether I’m playing or GMing. The failure rate is just too high to be worth a monster’s time when they generally exist on-screen for a single encounter that’s usually only a handful of rounds long. I generally gloss over it and basically forget that it’s there.

I suppose that if the monster in question gets a buff round or can prep a well-timed ambush, they may as well try it from an in-game perspective, but I find it so impractical out of game that I’ve never even seen it.

I will freely concede that my implicit solution (i.e., forget that the random chance of summoning exists) is not the only way to play, and the specific problem presented in the OP is, admittedly, potentially troubling. It’s not really a save-or-die, but it’s at least occupying an adjacent space in game design terms: chance of the user wasting a turn and chance of the user having an arguably outsized effect on the flow of the encounter. Only with more paperwork, because now we have another combatant to worry about. I hate SoD effects as well, so I’m all in favor of just removing the ability or of altering it to be something more reasonable.

Most demons that have a summon ability also have a teleport ability. They can quite easily teleport a short distance away, attempt to summon a friend, and then ambush their foes, maybe even using the summoned creature as a distraction or a facade if it's the same creature type as themselves. Also, if the demon sets up an ambush, they could attempt to summon shortly before combat begins, rather than mid combat.

That said, the summoning ability in the back of the monster manual specifically says that many fiends are hesitant to use the ability because it leaves them beholden to the fiend they summon:


Most creatures with the ability to summon do not use it lightly, since it leaves them beholden to the summoned creature. In general, they use it only when necessary to save their own lives.

[ericgrau]

So a Succubus is a CR 7 encounter... that can, 30% of the time, summon a CR 9 Vrock for an hour. Which would then make it a CR 10 encounter.

We all know the CR system is inaccurate, but what was the value of making it downright random? If a low-level party wants to engage a Succubus they have a 30% chance of a TPK; on the other hand, any party that can handle a Vrock isn't going to waste time rolling dice against a lone Succubus.

I realize it's up to the DM but I hate that they literally require you to ignore the rules they wrote, unless you want to play the Random TPK Game.

/rant



Demons are often reluctant to use this power until in obvious peril or extreme circumstances.

And Crake explained why.

Succubus won't often use the power against a low level party until maybe the last round and it looks bad. And there's a 70% chance of wasting her precious turn and totally ruining her day. So even then it's risky. More likely she'd flee first, try to hide, then attempt to summon. Likewise the party might make a knowledge check and flee from the Vrock. In general Succubi don't even tend to fight directly and use trickery instead, so that makes this situation even more rare.

You're actually supposed to send a small number of nearly-impossible encounters at PCs so they run and don't fight everything. Along with some trivial ones in the mix of several encounters a session. Most DMs don't have time to do this, fights run long and so they just make 1 encounter that's kinda hard. Which is kinda silly how every foe is nicely matched to the party to insure success while best advancing their level for future fights. A lot of DMs don't like to kill PCs or rarely kill/capture parties. For example so PCs can have long involved stories. But 3.5 is not a good system for this. There's a reason why resurrection is so easy to get.

So (a) Your example are talking about is super rare and (b) PCs are supposed to die and/or run in 3.5, live with it.

[OgresAreCute]

More likely she'd Greater Teleport

Fixed that for you.

[ericgrau]

Fixed that for you.

That's a form of fleeing :P. But thanks lol.

More likely instead of summoning a Vrock, a succubus would greater teleport away, assume a disguise and try to trick the party.



Succubi are not warriors. They flee combat whenever they can. If forced to fight, they can attack with their claws, but they prefer to turn foes against one another.
And the above about demons in general hating to summon. And if a succubus got away then she isn't in desperate danger anymore, is she?

[Yahzi]

way too few bandit encounters
Hehe. I was actually writing up bandit and cult encounters when I made that complaint. I just listed in the encounter as the DM's choice; they can make it a CR 7 or a CR 9 depending on whether or not she summons it. You may be interested to know that I'll be putting up "Brigands of the Stinging Sea" on DriveThruRPG in a few days with 20 bandit gangs. (The succubus is in "Cults of the Stinging Sea," which is already up.)

I know it's from the old 2E days but still. Of course the succubus is already problematic; non-fighting encounters are almost entirely fudge factories in D&D.

How I dream of a game where all the moving parts are actually integrated. Yes, I know. That's not D&D. But by golly I will try! :smallbiggrin:

[Quertus]

As others have already covered, this is partially a holdover from the good old days, partially because by RAW the CR system expects you to be facing a likely "flee or TPK" scenario (CR 4+ over party level) every 20 fights or so, and partly because CaW says that "sporting challenge" isn't the only way to play the game.

It's fine to want a Demon as a boss encounter. It's fine to want to play CaS. I guess it's fine to want a Demon whose power level isn't chaotic. It's fine to want to write a module with the expectation success. It's fine to want to put that success in the players hands, not seemingly on one random roll. So, what can you do to put all these together?

Others have already suggested reasons why the Succubus might not use the summon in battle (can't, already used it, wouldn't be prudent, etc). In fact, it seems rather unlikely that they would use it in a fight, given that it is such a simultaneously risky and costly ability.

Alternately, you can telegraph the risk, and ensure that the PCs have the opportunity purchase gear that would help them overcome this encounter. If they get both bad luck and bad planning, then, yeah, they die. Them's the breaks.

[Jay R]

I would virtually guarantee you those random summons are legacy mechanics from 2e or even 1e, long before CR was any sort of a thing.

Actually, they come from before 1e. Demons were introduced in 1976 in Eldritch Wizardry, the third supplement of original D&D. A Succubus had a 25% chance of gating in a balrog. [Yes, that's what they called it, until the Tolkien estate noticed them.]

That's 34 years before CR was introduced in 3e in 2000.

[Nifft]

Actually, they come from before 1e. Demons were introduced in 1976 in Eldritch Wizardry, the thrid supplement of original D&D. A Succubus had a 25% chance of gating in a balrog. [Yes, that's what they called it, until the Tolkien estate noticed them.]

Can confirm, ye olde boxes had Hobbits & Balrogs.

Interesting tidbit: in 1e, "Balor" was one specific demon's name.


https://i.ibb.co/7pxR5kN/Screen-Shot-2018-11-24-at-6-41-02-PM.png (https://ibb.co/qgLWfJF)

[Pleh]

You can look at it the other way. Suppose a 10th level party were raiding a small den of Succubi because it was relatively low threat to them. Then, while a few of them ran interference, one of the hidden Succubi summons the Vrock to tip the scale.

[Lapak]

Actually, they come from before 1e. Demons were introduced in 1976 in Eldritch Wizardry, the third supplement of original D&D. A Succubus had a 25% chance of gating in a balrog. [Yes, that's what they called it, until the Tolkien estate noticed them.]

That's 34 years before CR was introduced in 3e in 2000.
Yep. And as others have said, it's a mechanic that's a carryover from when 'party encounters monsters and either negotiates or bribes them rather than fight' and 'party has a good chance of randomly encountering monsters WAY above their level and has to recognize when to run away' were both central game elements, complete with mechanics for fleeing and rules for things like "drop something valuable (or tasty, depending on the monster) and hope it stops to pick that up rather than continuing pursuit."

Demons in pre-3e were intended to be extremely variable encounters as a feature, not a bug. Converting that mechanic directly to 3e was a substantial mistake on the part of the designers, so yeah, they don't work well in the new environment. I'd generally recommend that feature get traded out for something else in most 3e fiends if you want them to play nice with CR.

[Crake]

Can confirm, ye olde boxes had Hobbits & Balrogs.

Interesting tidbit: in 1e, "Balor" was one specific demon's name.


https://i.ibb.co/7pxR5kN/Screen-Shot-2018-11-24-at-6-41-02-PM.png (https://ibb.co/qgLWfJF)


The same goes for all the type 1-6 demons. Marilith was the name of a specific type 5, Nalfeshnee was a type 4, glabrezu was a type 3, hezrou was a type 2 and vrock was a type 1.