Question about four elements monk

[Dankus Memakus]

So I have never even looked at the four elements monk because I never really play monks. However, my friends and I have decided to do a themed campaign where everyone is a planetouched race. So we have a water genasi life cleric, earth genasi land druid, fire genasi storm barbarian, Aasimar divine sorc, and a tiefling death cleric. I am an air genasi and now I'm really looking at the 4 elements monk (although I'd only be a one element monk) because it fits my character concept. Is it really that terrible? We arent doing homebrew so the revised version is not an option for me. At first glance the 4 elements monk seems good enough to me. Can't cast too many spells but it is also a monk so it gets all the monk goodies. I just dont want to be generally way worse than my party. That would definitely bore me. So will someone please tell me of they are truly BAD. Suboptimal is fine just as long as it isn't terribly suboptimal.

Edit: I wrote bad because I'm tired

[Jerrykhor]

Most people woulds say that they blow through Ki points too fast, for little effect. But i think the main problem is that they don't even have proper features. 'You learn one additional elemental discipline at Levels 6,11 and 17'. They are treating a new 'spell' as your subclass features.

If you wonder what's wrong with that, just head over to Fighter and Rogue and check out Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster.

[stoutstien]

If you are allowed to use water whip as a bonus action( pre ettra) it has amazing burst/control ablitlies. Talk to dm about adding a 2nd pool of ki to fuel the spell effects or maybe talk about learning different spells. Lots of new flavor in xans

[ad_hoc]

I'm the sort of person who says that just about everything in the game is fine as far as power goes. Some things like beastmaster are fine people just don't like how they play.

4 Elements Monk though...is just bad. It's the only subclass I would recommend against using because it is terrible. It's just not fun. It's because it makes you less of a monk as it uses the same Ki pool.

Sun Soul is the 4E done right.

Storm Sorcerer is a thing so you could do that.

[Galithar]

I feel like you would be better off playing literally any other kind of Monk and just fluffing the abilities to be wind/air related.

A "Thunder" soul Monk with all radiant replaced with lightning or thunder damage sounds pretty cool to me. Wouldn't take any changes other then changing the damage type and fluffing the descriptions.

[Zalabim]

I think if the only disciplines you choose to learn are Gust, Fist of Unbroken Air, Flight, and Hold Person, then you would probably be disappointed by how infrequently you care to use them. There's a strong temptation to at least learn something like Fireball if you make it to level 11, for example. They really are all fine choices otherwise.

Gust - Use this to counter spells that are countered by strong wind, and pretty much nothing else.
Fist of Unbroken Air - If an enemy is flying, run under them and use this to knock them prone and deal extra falling damage, and for pretty much nothing else.
Hold Person - Use this if you know the enemy is a humanoid with a weaker Wisdom save, or you just can't reach them, or you have an opportunity to target multiple enemies with it. It's Hold Person. Whether you use it much is really campaign dependent.
Fly - Use this if you need to fly. Don't forget you can use simple ranged weapons too, but it'll be there if you need it.

[Sahe]

The problems with 4 Elements Monk are:
- your abilities are expensive in Ki so you're quickly out of Ki
- once you're out of Ki other than the Ribbon of Elemental Attunement, you don't have a Subclass at all anymore. Which will happen quick because problem 1
- your selection is quite limited
- (it's based on the 4 classical Greek Elements and not on the 5 Chinese Elements)

[sophontteks]

Storm Sorcerer is a thing so you could do that.
Speaking of bad. Thats one of the worst sorcerer subclasses. Storm sorcerers need to be frontliners for their abilities, but have very little to aid in their defense.

But, storm sorcerer/tempest cleric is a thing.:smallcool:

[Citan]

So I have never even looked at the four elements monk because I never really play monks. However, my friends and I have decided to do a themed campaign where everyone is a planetouched race. So we have a water genasi life cleric, earth genasi land druid, fire genasi storm barbarian, Aasimar divine sorc, and a tiefling death cleric. I am an air genasi and now I'm really looking at the 4 elements monk (although I'd only be a one element monk) because it fits my character concept. Is it really that terrible? We arent doing homebrew so the revised version is not an option for me. At first glance the 4 elements monk seems good enough to me. Can't cast too many spells but it is also a monk so it gets all the monk goodies. I just dont want to be generally way worse than my party. That would definitely bore me. So will someone please tell me of they are truly BAD. Suboptimal is fine just as long as it isn't terribly suboptimal.

Edit: I wrote bad because I'm tired
Hi!

Honestly the 4E Monk in general is a very good subclass, just misunderstood by many people.
It is certainly more ki-hungry than others, but it also brings unique strengths. Its only real flaw is the very little number of Discipline known (they made this to be in line with how many spells Shadow got probably, but considering their cost and use are very different I think it was an unnecessary restriction).

For your particular concept however, I'm not sure this is that much of a good fit tbh.
It depends on whether you'd pick only air-themed Disciplines (which is very restrictive) or if...
- You'd be fine also taking other disciplines.
- Or your DM would allow you to pick level-equivalent spells among other lists instead of given choice.

Because from RAW, the only Disciplines really fitting are Thunderwave (short-lived spell), Shatter (fine spell) and Unbroken AIr (great control but ki-hungry).

Thunderwave is decent at low levels, mainly for the added chance to break encirclement, but it's best used on casters than on a Monk: if you really want to deal damage, you have better options. If you really want to just break and run, using Dodge/Disengage as bonus action is less costly. So it's nice for fluff, may be helpful sometimes, but since a Monk at low levels usually avoid being swarmed in the first place, I wouldn't recommend upon it unless you tandem with people to buff your defense.

And as far as Shatter goes, it's a tier 2 spell (great when you get it, does not scale very well compared to enemies), so if your Sorcerer pal or Druid pal make the effort of preparing AOE spells, yours probably won't be needed. Or to say in different words, the "action economy cost / resource cost / expected benefit" ratio will be far lower for you than for them.
However, if none of them likes to take up the "mob cleaner" role, then you will be much appreciated... But you will need to get Fireball ASAP at 11th level.

There is also the problem of rests: Clerics need it only for Channel Divinity, Druid won't use Wild Shape in fight and has only one arcane recovery, others don't care. So I'd advise you check with your party that they are fine trying to take at least 2 short rests, or that your Sorcerer pal is ok picking the Catnap spell (perfect for your party since only you and Cleric have high chance of depleting short-rest based resources between fights).

So if you'd wanna stick single-class I see the following options.
1. You're fine using only Air-themed disciplines and using them sparingly at low levels -> You'll be very fine since you're still a Monk.
Your main (occasional) use will be Unbroken Air to push enemies inside Land Druid's difficult terrain spells or inside upcoming Sorcerer's AOE damage. Or using Shatter if nobody else uses AOE (not very probable to me but hey) or for some utility (door opening, distractions). Besides that, you'll be attacking, probably in tandem with Barbarian.

2. You're fine getting one signature Air-themed ability but otherwise varying your arsenal among all Disciplines as you level up.
-> Fangs of Fire Snake is the best for low level, pick and keep Unbroken Air, then otherwise try and swap whatever you like between Hold Person, Shatter, Thunderwave (swap at level 6 max I'd say), until you pick Fly and Fireball...

3. Your DM agrees to make a few houserules for you and then...
- Pick up "Sun Soul" and refluff with air-based spells (Burning Hands -> Thunderwave, "small Fireball" -> Shatter, radiant ranged attack -> force ranged attack -or magical bludgeon-).
- Have him agree that any use of your "spell-like" abilities can enable bonus action weapon attack (which is a great buff of power, but not unbalancing too much, and certainly not game-breaking).
- Have him agree that you get to learn 2 cantrips and 2 1st level spells among a thematically-fitting list, and/or can learn twice the number of Disciplines that RAW gives.

If none of those options above fits you, either 1) get a multiclass or 2) drop the Monk idea entirely and turn yourself to...
- Ranger: extremely solid class, better than Fighter in many ways, and plenty of fitting spells: Zephyr's Strike, Longstrider (carried by wind), Fog Cloud, Lightning Arrow (ok this one is a stretch) etc...
- Arcane Trickster Rogue: Cunning Action ("running like the wind"), Shield (refluffable as compressed air), Fog Cloud, Minor Illusion possibly, Shadow Blade (refluff as Kamaitachi)...

If a multiclass is fine with you, then Monk with a few dips in class providing the spells you want, or with a dip into class providing sustainable features like Manoeuvers or Cunning Action to reduce your ki use while keeping variety in your tactics, will make a very fine build.

[NaughtyTiger]

I did enjoy my water bender

mage initiate druid: shape water, cure wounds, thorn whip (reflavored as lesser water whip)
water whip (as bonus action)
hold person
control water.


at level 6, consider trading elemental attunement for a useful ability (3 abilities at level 6)

wisdom is more important that dex though. you get so few ki, you want to make sure that the effects stick.

[dejarnjc]

I highly recommend just making the case for the homebrew revised version. I've played both the revised and the official version and the revised version is just so much more fun without feeling overpowered at all.

If you're stuck going the official version then I'd just spam flames of the firesnake, fists of unbroken air (when pushing is useful), and waterwhip. Everything else is pretty bleh.

[ChildofLuthic]

I feel like you would be better off playing literally any other kind of Monk and just fluffing the abilities to be wind/air related.

A "Thunder" soul Monk with all radiant replaced with lightning or thunder damage sounds pretty cool to me. Wouldn't take any changes other then changing the damage type and fluffing the descriptions.

I doubt your DM will have a problem with it either, since radiant is so often resisted.

[Trustypeaches]

Speaking of bad. Thats one of the worst sorcerer subclasses. Storm sorcerers need to be frontliners for their abilities, but have very little to aid in their defense.

But, storm sorcerer/tempest cleric is a thing.:smallcool:My favorite multiclass.

It works well if you go for either a 2 level dip in tempest cleric then pump Storm which gets you heavy armor, martial weapons, channel divinity to maximize thine lightning bolts, and other cleric goodies.

I however did the opposite and took a single level dip in Sorcerer on my cleric, which got me Tempestuous Magic for excellent mobility as a frontliner (and works with any spell, not just sorcerer spell slots like wild magic), Shield, Absorb Elements, and awesome cantrips like Booming Blade, Lightning Lure, and Shape Water to grant me tons more utility and flavor.

[Grod_The_Giant]

As an alternative, may I suggest a refluffed Drunken Master? Their features are all about movement and redirecting attacks, both of which are very air magic-y things. You can grab Magic Inititiate for a touch more magic, if you feel the need. (Gust, Thunderclap, and Thunderwave, say, would be very thematic)

[ATHATH]

As an alternative, may I suggest a refluffed Drunken Master? Their features are all about movement and redirecting attacks, both of which are very air magic-y things. You can grab Magic Inititiate for a touch more magic, if you feel the need. (Gust, Thunderclap, and Thunderwave, say, would be very thematic)
Mage Hand, Thaumaturgy, and Message are also good air-themed cantrips (some might benefit from some minor, non-mechanical refluffing in order to better fit the air theme, though).

[Desteplo]

Elemental monk isn’t bad. There’s an expectation early lvls but they’re burst and utility then. Once you hit lvl6 your ki is plenty enough.

You have a ranged option as well as Nova opportunity. Keep that in mind. Paladins can use their slots for smites. You can use your ki for fist of unbroken air etc. sometimes you won’t need a spell but sometimes you’ll need that extra 30ft

Magic initiate is a good way to blend yourself into more magic user type that most people don’t get with elemental attunement.

Ritual caster if you want to get Druidic about it.

Otherwise dex and wisdom evenly
If you magic initiate into Druid you can grab shileighligh and just pump up wisdom first thing. Nunchucks feel more air than a quarter staff though

Monk is a good base class. You shouldn’t ever feel like you are behind. You won’t screw anyone. The game is simply balanced.

From a scale 1-10 everything is 4-6 anything below or above is player preferences

A player took true strike and regretted it. Then later on there was a battle using siege weapons and it was mvp
-a puzzle was automatically solved by “gust of wind” spell. Blindsided me.
-you will find your niche with whatever disciplines you pick up.

[Skylivedk]

Elemental monk isn’t bad. There’s an expectation early lvls but they’re burst and utility then. Once you hit lvl6 your ki is plenty enough.

You have a ranged option as well as Nova opportunity. Keep that in mind. Paladins can use their slots for smites. You can use your ki for fist of unbroken air etc. sometimes you won’t need a spell but sometimes you’ll need that extra 30ft

[...]

Monk is a good base class. You shouldn’t ever feel like you are behind. You won’t screw anyone. The game is simply balanced.

From a scale 1-10 everything is 4-6 anything below or above is player preferences

A player took true strike and regretted it. Then later on there was a battle using siege weapons and it was mvp
-a puzzle was automatically solved by “gust of wind” spell. Blindsided me.
-you will find your niche with whatever disciplines you pick up.

From a mechanical point of view, this is simply not true. In a game with feats and multiclassing, 4e monk, frenzy barbarian and ranger are behind a (hex) sorcadin, the champion is worse than the battlemaster and you probably always prefer being a diviner to an enchanter.

I don't understand why people keep defending the design flaws of DnD. It has happened in all editions even in crazy cases (i.e. CoDzillas in 3e). The design team isn't perfect. If they were, a 10 ft. ladder wouldn't be cheaper than a 10 ft. pole and the designers wouldn't contradict themselves in tweets every six months.

[Citan]

From a mechanical point of view, this is simply not true. In a game with feats and multiclassing, 4e monk, frenzy barbarian and ranger are behind a (hex) sorcadin, the champion is worse than the battlemaster and you probably always prefer being a diviner to an enchanter.

I don't understand why people keep defending the design flaws of DnD. It has happened in all editions even in crazy cases (i.e. CoDzillas in 3e). The design team isn't perfect. If they were, a 10 ft. ladder wouldn't be cheaper than a 10 ft. pole and the designers wouldn't contradict themselves in tweets every six months.
So you arguing that people blind themselves by pushing completely arbitrary assertions?

That's an interesting way to build an argument. XD

Because one quick look at your sentence is enough to understand you base in on many untold (big) assumptions, like "only one or two big encounters a day".

For example, you say that Champion is worse than Battlemaster. That is 100% untrue as soon as one of the following assertions is true :
- Both get 15th level.
- Both fare a day with several encounters chained.
- Both live a day with big problems to take a short rest.
And it gets worse when you start getting into multiclassing actually, crit-fishing being a nice thing.

Which brings me to the second part: first, you compare a multiclass character to single-class characters, which is dumb. You are making up custom comparison rules to try and make your point, maybe because you actually know that single-class are very well balanced (also, in a game with multiclass and feats, why would not the other also pick multiclasses and feats?).
But lets go with it anyways.
At low level, compared to Sorcadin, Monk / Barbarian / Ranger will get extra attack earlier: so while the dual-class easily wins nova, the other win in sustained damage.
Note that this will hold true at all levels, especially the highest.
In the last quarter, Monks and Barbarians will completely own the Sorcadin in resilience and sustainable offense (while the Sorcadin will reach peaks in nova).

Of course, if you are used to campaigns with 5 mn long adventuring days, none of all this will matter: Sorcadin can just blow all resources then go to sleep. In any properly run campaign though, with days varying in difficulty/intensity/time pressure, those differences will make the difference.

Furthermore, there are several things that a Sorcadin just cant do as well or at all compared to others:
- Barbarian: being a meat sponge (whatever way to look at it, especially when enemies start multi-attacking with big bonus, halving damage is better than getting a +5 AC boost).
- Ranger: providing great healing (Healing Spirit) or great sneaking (Pass Without Traces) or great scouting/transport/carriers/helpers (Conjure Animals).
- Monk: providing reliable single-target control that benefits every melee (Stunning Strike), wooshing around battlefield to Help/Heal/Carry/Drag objects and creatures (Fly) or pulling one (or two) Fireballs without worrying about resources because a short-rest is coming soon after. And being overall the most resilient of all at late game.

If you build a Sorcadin, it's not because you want to make "the ultimate character". That simply doesn't exist. It's because you want to be extra good in some areas in which Sorcerers and/or Paladins were already good into, or to shore up weaknesses by combining very complementary classes.
Same could be told for Barbarian and Rogue, Monk and Druid, Ranger and Cleric, etc...

Also, pulling out the tweets is irrelevant: although I agree with you the contradicting versions is annoying, it's not the PHB so up to each DM to follow, plus they are answers to questions pertaining a huge work they did years ago, so obviously they cannot remember every detail of how they viewed things at the time.

[Eragon123]

I personally love this homebrew (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1pdYIcfHauwNDM2My1XeWFYSDA/view).

[Tanarii]

It's mostly fine.

The class is balanced as a 1/3 caster, assuming you spend 1/2 your Ki on your elemental abilities, and the other 1/2 on base Monk abilities.

I've had plenty of players play the sub-class. Most are happy, especially those who view it as flexibility, adding new ways to spend their Ki.

Some don't like it that much, mostly ones who feel that the ability to dump their Ki into it and effectively be a 2/3 caster for a short rest is somehow not enough.

Also as a general rule, I find that players who don't go into online discussions about how not powerful classes are happier with them, come to understand the strengths and weaknesses on their own better. Those that do tend to buy into whatever the Internet hive mind tells them about it, and can't get past that to understand where the strengths are.

4e monks add flexibility to Ki in terms of area damage, ranged damage, and ranged special effects. That's their strength.

If they have a weakness, it's that the subclass doesn't come with enough non-Ki special abilities. A common proposed 'fix' for that is allowing some number of EE or SCAG elemental-cantrips in place of or on top of Elemental Attunement.

The amount of Ki their abilities cost is balanced, as a 1/3 caster, and doesn't need to be adjusted.

[stoutstien]

You could easily refluff shadow monk to wind/air.

[ad_hoc]

It's mostly fine.

The class is balanced as a 1/3 caster, assuming you spend 1/2 your Ki on your elemental abilities, and the other 1/2 on base Monk abilities.

The amount of Ki their abilities cost is balanced, as a 1/3 caster, and doesn't need to be adjusted.

But those 1/3 caster classes get additional spell slots. The 4E Monk doesn't. They also get spells that don't just replace their attacks.

The 4E Monk changes their Ki into, effectively, spell slots. I see the design intent but the execution is wrong.

So they're a 1/3 caster if they lose 1/2 of their Monk resources. That sucks. Stunning Strike is really good.

And if they cast a spell they are spending Ki and giving up 3 attacks (4 with a Ki). So they could make 4 attacks and 2 Stunning Strikes OR cast Shatter, something the spellcasters in the party could do 3 levels ago.

It's not just the Ki, it's the tradeoff of attacks.

Compare vs Sun Soul.

4 attacks and 1 Stunning Strike OR Burning Hands

vs

2 Attacks and Burning Hands.

IMO Sun Soul is 4 Elements done right.

[NaughtyTiger]

And if they cast a spell they are spending Ki and giving up 3 attacks (4 with a Ki). So they could make 4 attacks and 2 Stunning Strikes OR cast Shatter, something the spellcasters in the party could do 3 levels ago.

It's not just the Ki, it's the tradeoff of attacks.
...

IMO Sun Soul is 4 Elements done right.

I totally agree about sun soul being the better 4 elements.

however, the attack tradeoff is true about EK and AT also.
AT gives up sneak attack to cast... something
EL gives up attacks to cast a cantrip, or gives up all attacks to cast a spell.
1/3 casters all feel underpowered (prolly becuase they are)

[Desteplo]

True but you also need to consider. It’s a variety. Sometimes stunning strike won’t be the best option. No matter how good it is.

Something with massive AC Or just a bunch of small minions. Now monk has an AOE that it normally wouldn’t have.

It’s the same argument for eldritch knights having evocation spells. They’re giving up all their attacks for the same shatter (but monk can upcast it much more effectively)

And they have 1/2 spell lvl progression. They get 5th lvl spell options something fighters don’t.

Monks are giving up stuff for a very different casting system. 1/2 spell lvl progression with possibilities of 1/3 - 2/3 lvl spell slots on a short rest resource

[Grod_The_Giant]

I totally agree about sun soul being the better 4 elements.

however, the attack tradeoff is true about EK and AT also.
AT gives up sneak attack to cast... something
EL gives up attacks to cast a cantrip, or gives up all attacks to cast a spell.
1/3 casters all feel underpowered (prolly becuase they are)
You're still trading off actions, but you're not trading off resources. EK/AT casting is an entirely separate resource pool from what the majority of their class runs on. 4E competes for the same pool of Ki points as the rest of the Monk's features, while every other Monk subclass also adds new at-will capabilities.

[Galithar]

After reviewing Elemental Monk I may change my stance. I just noticed that most of their 'spells' don't actually indicate they use an action, nor does the lead up section (that I noticed) say that they do.

So for example:

Shape the Flowing River: As an action, you can spend 1 ki point to choose an area of ice or water no larger than 30 feet on a side within 120 feet of you. You can change water to ice within the area and vice versa, and you can reshape ice in the area in any manner you choose. The extent of any such changes can't exceed half the area's largest dimension. You can't shape the ice to trap or injure a creature in the area.

Sounds like a wasted action in combat. (I realize that has lots of out of combat utility, but that's irrelevant to my point). But in the other hand

Sweeping Cinder Strike: You can spend 2 ki points to cast Burning Hands.

That simply says I spend points and it happens with no listed action cost. Now normally I would make the assumption that like an actual spell they cost an action, what's throwing me off is that some call out needing an action while others don't. Can someone please tell me what I'm missing? Because how I'm reading it now it seems like while the abilities aren't amazing if they ignore action economy (you know, in the way that's probably just me missing something obvious :P ) then this it actually a pretty decent subclass.


Edit: Removed quote of person I didn't actually respond to! Haha

[Citan]

It's mostly fine.

The class is balanced as a 1/3 caster, assuming you spend 1/2 your Ki on your elemental abilities, and the other 1/2 on base Monk abilities.

I've had plenty of players play the sub-class. Most are happy, especially those who view it as flexibility, adding new ways to spend their Ki.

Some don't like it that much, mostly ones who feel that the ability to dump their Ki into it and effectively be a 2/3 caster for a short rest is somehow not enough.

Also as a general rule, I find that players who don't go into online discussions about how not powerful classes are happier with them, come to understand the strengths and weaknesses on their own better. Those that do tend to buy into whatever the Internet hive mind tells them about it, and can't get past that to understand where the strengths are.

4e monks add flexibility to Ki in terms of area damage, ranged damage, and ranged special effects. That's their strength.

If they have a weakness, it's that the subclass doesn't come with enough non-Ki special abilities. A common proposed 'fix' for that is allowing some number of EE or SCAG elemental-cantrips in place of or on top of Elemental Attunement.

The amount of Ki their abilities cost is balanced, as a 1/3 caster, and doesn't need to be adjusted.
This is a nice summary. :)


But those 1/3 caster classes get additional spell slots. The 4E Monk doesn't. They also get spells that don't just replace their attacks.

The 4E Monk changes their Ki into, effectively, spell slots. I see the design intent but the execution is wrong.

So they're a 1/3 caster if they lose 1/2 of their Monk resources. That sucks. Stunning Strike is really good.

And if they cast a spell they are spending Ki and giving up 3 attacks (4 with a Ki). So they could make 4 attacks and 2 Stunning Strikes OR cast Shatter, something the spellcasters in the party could do 3 levels ago.

It's not just the Ki, it's the tradeoff of attacks.

Compare vs Sun Soul.

4 attacks and 1 Stunning Strike OR Burning Hands

vs

2 Attacks and Burning Hands.

IMO Sun Soul is 4 Elements done right.

1. First big mistake: your math is overall wrong because...
a) Game is balanced around the expectation of two short-rests. And usually it's easy enough to crank *at least* one in most days, except with intense time pressure or immediate life threat.
b) The relative opportunity cost of using a given spell diminishes as the ki pool widens.

Compare EK 3 and 4E 3, both having Burning Hands.
At level 3, EK has 2 slots. So he can cast it 2 times in a day. Monk would need to burn 2*2ki. Currently you use 2/3 of your resources per short rest. Hopefully this eases quickly.
At level 4 it's half. But EK gets 3rd slot. At level 5 its less than half.
At level 6 EK has just still 3 slots, Monk can equal him with only 1/3 of his resources provided short rests, or equal him by blowing everything.
And he gets Hold Person, which brings to my next point about Stunning Strike.
Before that though, just stress something: at level 12 a Warlock, which is a full-caster in the first place can shoot 3 5th level Fireball every short rest. A 4E Monk, which is a *martial*, can launch 3*3rd level Fireball at the same level -not saying it's a good idea, just giving a point of comparison for power balance-).
At level 15, Monk has potential nova power equal to Warlock, except he's much more sturdy (although let's be fair, Hexblade publication really rerolled the balance here).
And compared to other fullcasters, he logically gets somewhere between 2 and 3 times uses of the same great spells.


Stunning Strike, it's great, but not that much.
1) It targets CON which is the most usually resisted 2) It also needs to hit in the first place (so against high AC targets you'll spend several attempts just to land one) 3) it just stuns, while Hold Person paralyses (auto-crit in addition of advantage).

Which brings me to the last point.
In what situation, really, would you consider *both* "AOE spell" and "gang-ho on one enemy"?
It just does not compute.
When you are swarmed and need to make some cleaning, one AOE with guaranteed damage is the only right decision.
When your goal is to heavily damage or control one enemy, using as many attacks as possible or using an ability with a strong chance of debuff is the only right decision.
It's an OR/OR situation.

(Reminder on the ranged attacks by the way: any Monk can throw daggers/darts or use shortbow at low level, use speed to catch up to enemies at mid level, and only 4E -Fly- and Kensei -long bow- are any decent against flying enemies. Sun Soul can boost number of attacks at low level, which is great because low level Monks do not like hurt, but it's a benefit that loses steam at higher level even if still useful for being radiant damage).
And since it needs WIS in the first place (contrarily to EK), there is a strong incentive to use offensive abilities.
And since it doesn't really need defensive spells at high level (contrarily to EK), the relative cost of those spells diminishes greatly later.

That's the thing really irking me with people here. You are opposing abilities like they are competing with each other, but that's a big flawed illusion. 4E Monk just has ways to deal with situations in which others are usually bad.
And you don't really care that other people could cast those levels ago. The important thing is that *there is another guy who can, (at a comparatively reduced cost at high level too)*. And since that other guy has little options, it actually becomes something everyone else can rely on.
Because a Sorcerer, or a Wizard would probably want to keep 3rd level slots for Twin Haste, or Fear, or other non-scalable spells. For which he only gets 3 slots for *all* day.
Because a Warlock may want to keep his slot for a similar spell, or maybe a powerful smite nova (Blade), or upcast Shadow Blade (same)... And later he may dislike wasting a 5th level slot because he has no choice, while knowing a 3rd level would have been enough.
And although I focused on Fireball, the same is true for Burning Hands, Shatter and Hold Person (especially the latter because of the added concentration problem).

[Daghoulish]

- Snip-

That's because it says your casting a specific spell. As in, all of the rules for casting that spell now apply. You need to spend an action to cast it and have to obey Verbal and Somatic components, but not material components. I'll just link the important part from my PHB that talks about it.

"Casting Elemental Spells. Some elemental disciplines allow you to cast spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting. To cast one of these spells, you use its casting time and other rules. but you don't need to provide material components for it."

[NaughtyTiger]

You're still trading off actions, but you're not trading off resources. EK/AT casting is an entirely separate resource pool from what the majority of their class runs on. 4E competes for the same pool of Ki points as the rest of the Monk's features, while every other Monk subclass also adds new at-will capabilities.

Ha, I totally agree.
I was responding to the quote that said: "It's not just the Ki, it's the tradeoff of attacks."
Since that poster stated she (do flumphs have gender) wasn't concerned about the Ki cost, I didn't address it.

[Citan]

You're still trading off actions, but you're not trading off resources. EK/AT casting is an entirely separate resource pool from what the majority of their class runs on. 4E competes for the same pool of Ki points as the rest of the Monk's features, while every other Monk subclass also adds new at-will capabilities.
Wrong.
Open Hand's "at will" relies on Flurry of Blows -> costs Ki (same with Drunken Master). Lvl 6 is once per rest. Level 17 costs ki.
Shadow's "at will" relies on dim light, which will more often than not require Darkness at least if you want some control over where you want to go.
Long Death's "at will" is a true at-will, but exactly like 4e, blocks any offensive bonus action.
Kensei is the only one bringing real "at will" still allowing you to attack, but it takes bonus action instead.

[NaughtyTiger]

Wrong.
Open Hand's "at will" relies on Flurry of Blows -> costs Ki (same with Drunken Master). Lvl 6 is once per rest. Level 17 costs ki.
Shadow's "at will" relies on dim light, which will more often than not require Darkness at least if you want some control over where you want to go.
Long Death's "at will" is a true at-will, but exactly like 4e, blocks any offensive bonus action.
Kensei is the only one bringing real "at will" still allowing you to attack, but it takes bonus action instead.

Ease up on the strong retorts.
Grog did NOT say the level 3 features were free. He said the higher level stuff didn't use Ki as the resource. You even underlined that part of his quote.
Nothing that you listed contradicts that.

[Galithar]

That's because it says your casting a specific spell. As in, all of the rules for casting that spell now apply. You need to spend an action to cast it and have to obey Verbal and Somatic components, but not material components. I'll just link the important part from my PHB that talks about it.

"Casting Elemental Spells. Some elemental disciplines allow you to cast spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting. To cast one of these spells, you use its casting time and other rules. but you don't need to provide material components for it."

Thank you!! That's the line I missed!

So yeah I stick by 4 elements not being good, especially if you then limit yourself to one element.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wrong.
Open Hand's "at will" relies on Flurry of Blows -> costs Ki (same with Drunken Master). Lvl 6 is once per rest. Level 17 costs ki.
Shadow's "at will" relies on dim light, which will more often than not require Darkness at least if you want some control over where you want to go.
Long Death's "at will" is a true at-will, but exactly like 4e, blocks any offensive bonus action.
Kensei is the only one bringing real "at will" still allowing you to attack, but it takes bonus action instead.
Okay, fair-ish point on Open Hand; most of their features either augment an ki action you were already using (Open Hand Technique) or operate on their own schedule (Wholeness/Tranquility). So while yes, they do cost resources, none of them compete for your ki in the same way that 4E abilities do. They're all straight power boosts, rather than the 4E's power alternatives.

Poor point on Shadow; I don't know why you say that dim light is uncommon; in my experience, it's almost everywhere, certainly anywhere you'd be stealthing around. But again, it's not competing for your ki or your actions-- it's adding a new noncombat dimension.

[ad_hoc]

I totally agree about sun soul being the better 4 elements.

however, the attack tradeoff is true about EK and AT also.
AT gives up sneak attack to cast... something
EL gives up attacks to cast a cantrip, or gives up all attacks to cast a spell.
1/3 casters all feel underpowered (prolly becuase they are)

The difference here is that they can choose spells which aren't competing for their attacks.

Also, they get these spells in addition to their base class abilities, they don't need to be less of their class to cast.

Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster are definitely not underpowered.

Those subclasses also have better progression than the other subclasses for Fighter and Rogue. At level 7 an Eldritch Knight gains 2 level 2 spell slots and now they can Booming Blade as well as a regular attack. That is pretty strong.

[ad_hoc]

a) Game is balanced around the expectation of two short-rests. And usually it's easy enough to crank *at least* one in most days, except with intense time pressure or immediate life threat.

Level 4 Monk = 12 Ki

3 level 1 spells = 6 Ki

Level 4 Eldritch Knight = 3 level 1 spells

The math is exactly 1/2 Ki spent for the equivalent of a 1/3 caster at 4th level given 2 short rests/long rest.

Less at levels 5/6 but...

At level 7 it is now 2/3 Ki spent instead of 1/2 (14 Ki for 4/2 spell slots and 21 Ki total)

Now, if 4E got a special pool that they could cast out of that would be fine. But they don't.

[NaughtyTiger]

The difference here is that they can choose spells which aren't competing for their attacks.

Also, they get these spells in addition to their base class abilities, they don't need to be less of their class to cast.

Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster are definitely not underpowered.

Those subclasses also have better progression than the other subclasses for Fighter and Rogue. At level 7 an Eldritch Knight gains 2 level 2 spell slots and now they can Booming Blade as well as a regular attack. That is pretty strong.

I agree with most of that. Boomstick is the main reason that EK is now competitive. I haven't seen EK in T3 play, so I don't know how they do with the big dogs.

[ad_hoc]

I agree with most of that. Boomstick is the main reason that EK is now competitive. I haven't seen EK in T3 play, so I don't know how they do with the big dogs.

Yeah, as with all casters they get better as more spells are released.

An EK can have Absorb Elements, Shield, and one other like Silent Image or Find Familiar.

Admittedly the level 2 spell choices are limited at 7th (probably Darkness is best), but at 8 they can pick any Wizard one. Invisibility would be good there but there are others.

They can also pick a couple utility cantrips in addition to BB/GFB.

It's not quite right to directly compare subclasses of different classes, but when we're asking whether 4E is a 1/3 caster it stacks up very poorly here when considering what they are giving up for their spells.

[Skylivedk]

So you arguing that people blind themselves by pushing completely arbitrary assertions?

That's an interesting way to build an argument. XD

Because one quick look at your sentence is enough to understand you base in on many untold (big) assumptions, like "only one or two big encounters a day".

For example, you say that Champion is worse than Battlemaster. That is 100% untrue as soon as one of the following assertions is true :
- Both get 15th level.
- Both fare a day with several encounters chained.
- Both live a day with big problems to take a short rest.
And it gets worse when you start getting into multiclassing actually, crit-fishing being a nice thing.


I base that statement on Kryx' math. It's years old now. And yes, I've probably weighted 1-15 higher than 15-20. Some multiclasses benefit from the crit-fishing. Most people overrate the value of that critical. For the biggest crit fisher (young P), Hexblade is quite often more attractive.



Which brings me to the second part: first, you compare a multiclass character to single-class characters, which is dumb. You are making up custom comparison rules to try and make your point, maybe because you actually know that single-class are very well balanced (also, in a game with multiclass and feats, why would not the other also pick multiclasses and feats?).

No, it isn't dumb. It's me giving my point of analysis. Also single class characters aren't balanced. Moon druid eats fighters from level 1-4. Especially without feats. I've never played without multiclassing and without feats, hence I wouldn't be able to provide any experience to a whiteroom analysis.



But lets go with it anyways.
At low level, compared to Sorcadin, Monk / Barbarian / Ranger will get extra attack earlier: so while the dual-class easily wins nova, the other win in sustained damage.
Depends on your build. Maybe, yes. Some go Pala 5 first. If you go Sorc first, you have better dmg from riders until 5 and then regain parity at 6.



Note that this will hold true at all levels, especially the highest.
In the last quarter, Monks and Barbarians will completely own the Sorcadin in resilience and sustainable offense (while the Sorcadin will reach peaks in nova).

I don't get where you have the resilience from. Sorcadin's saves are superior, they (can) have shield, absorb elements, counterspell, dimension door, etc. Way more ways to deal with damage than a monk or a Barbarian.



Of course, if you are used to campaigns with 5 mn long adventuring days, none of all this will matter: Sorcadin can just blow all resources then go to sleep. In any properly run campaign though, with days varying in difficulty/intensity/time pressure, those differences will make the difference.

Definitely agree on monk gaining by short rests. Unfortunately most official campaigns (as in, all I tried: Storm King's Thunder, Tomb of Annihilation and Lost Mines) don't encourage long adventuring days. At our table, we turned all short rest classes into long rest classes for Storm King's (short rest ability x 3; encounter cap of short rest uses).



Furthermore, there are several things that a Sorcadin just cant do as well or at all compared to others:
- Barbarian: being a meat sponge (whatever way to look at it, especially when enemies start multi-attacking with big bonus, halving damage is better than getting a +5 AC boost).
- Ranger: providing great healing (Healing Spirit) or great sneaking (Pass Without Traces) or great scouting/transport/carriers/helpers (Conjure Animals).
- Monk: providing reliable single-target control that benefits every melee (Stunning Strike), wooshing around battlefield to Help/Heal/Carry/Drag objects and creatures (Fly) or pulling one (or two) Fireballs without worrying about resources because a short-rest is coming soon after. And being overall the most resilient of all at late game.

Eh, what?
Your best example here is the Barbarian. Now, I mentioned Frenzy barbarian in particular. Ancestral Guardians, Bearbarians and Zealot are all a lot better.

If the sorcadin prefers to be a meat sponge -> Polymorph, Mirror Image, Absorb Elements, Shield even the horrible Stoneskin... In the beginning, Frenzy does it better, but not often and with worse AC.

Vs 4e Monk:
Quickened Hold Person/Monster/Other Disable that targets a better save than con? Yes, please. Also works before my own crit-smite-fishing attacks. Double yes. And I can GWM. Tasty.

Whooshing around the battlefield? You mean, like someone who has Fly? Haste? Find Steed? Expeditious retreat? Misty Step? And how are you carrying anything with the 10 STR score?

Diamond Soul is great. Agreed. I'd still take the Aura over it, due to having it earlier, also saving my party and giving me a higher bonus for most levels. Also, until level 14, Sorcadins are more resilient due to defensive buffs (Shield, Absorb Elements, Mirror Image, Blink,

I know it And remember, 4e monk only has 1 (until 6), 2 (until 11) and 4 (until 17) spells for most of the game. Once they cap out they have an almighty repertoire of 5 spells. He can't do a lot and he does it a high cost to his other functions (i.e. maintaining DPR). The Sorcadin still hits like a truck with no spells. The 4e monk has almost no spells to choose from, cast them at the expense of his other core class features, can rarely change his spells and knows very few at a given time. In return, many of his other features are not comparatively as much better than a Sorcadin's to make up for his vastly inferior spell-casting. He deals less damage, is less durable for a long time and provides less buffs to his allies.



If you build a Sorcadin, it's not because you want to make "the ultimate character". That simply doesn't exist. It's because you want to be extra good in some areas in which Sorcerers and/or Paladins were already good into, or to shore up weaknesses by combining very complementary classes.
Same could be told for Barbarian and Rogue, Monk and Druid, Ranger and Cleric, etc...

I wasn't talking about the ultimate character. I tried to give a clear-cut example of the game not being perfectly balanced. Sorcadins are in my opinion (and substantiated by the math, their versatility and their nova-ability) way beyond the 4-6 rating that was claimed to be the level of all classes. 4e Monk and Frenzy Barbarians are closer to a 3 and a 2 while a non-multi PHB ranger is hovering around the 3.5 mark, maybe dapping his friend the Storm Herald.. That doesn't mean you cannot play them and have fun. It doesn't mean that you cannot be useful and that you won't occasionally shine. It just means, you'll be less effective more of the time and you'll have fewer mechanically strong options.



Also, pulling out the tweets is irrelevant: although I agree with you the contradicting versions is annoying, it's not the PHB so up to each DM to follow, plus they are answers to questions pertaining a huge work they did years ago, so obviously they cannot remember every detail of how they viewed things at the time.
It is not irrelevant. It is a direct ethos attack (rhetorical term) undermining their credibility and status as final arbiters of balance. Even in PHB, they slipped up. I.e. the last bullet in the Crossbow Expert feat, one of the grappler feats (can't remember which one) and not printing a core race right across markets (just found out that my PHB had the terrible Dragon's Breath as long rest only. It's short rest. Still terrible). Beyond that; they let Savage Attacker have the same cost as Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master.

In other words, don't be afraid to change rules that you and your table find unreasonable. It's a game. Play around. Test new things. In this case, you can probably test either changing the ki-cost, adding some more spells or adding some ki without anything breaking apart ;)

[stoutstien]

A few years ago I made a air bender monk for a young player I had. I can't find anything on it atm but I think it was close to this

3rd lv - learn gust of cantrip. Wisdom is casting stat. Can replace any unarmed attack with gust.(all flavor but a well placed shove is nice.)
-You can cast Warding wind with a cost of 1 ki as an action
-your step to the wind action no longer cost ki.

Lv 6- your unarmed strikes now have a range of 10 feet using bursts of air. Can spend one ki to increase range to 30 per attack

Lv 11 -as an action you can spend 5 ki to cause a violent cyclone of air to form around you (Maelstrom without water center at self.) You can only move 5 feet per turn while you maintain concentration on it

Lv 17- never got that high but it had something to do with spawning air elements.

[Zalabim]

I base that statement on Kryx' math. It's years old now.
Well, you should stop. It was wrong then, and it's only more wrong if it hasn't been updated with options from Xanathar's.

Sorcadins are in my opinion (and substantiated by the math, their versatility and their nova-ability) way beyond the 4-6 rating that was claimed to be the level of all classes. 4e Monk and Frenzy Barbarians are closer to a 3 and a 2 while a non-multi PHB ranger is hovering around the 3.5 mark, maybe dapping his friend the Storm Herald.. That doesn't mean you cannot play them and have fun. It doesn't mean that you cannot be useful and that you won't occasionally shine. It just means, you'll be less effective more of the time and you'll have fewer mechanically strong options.
On a scale of 4-6, that means the 6 is 50% better than the 4. I don't think you can demonstrate anything even matching that degree of difference, and you certainly can't justify the kind of difference represented by 2 or 3 versus 7 or higher. It's just not there. As far as I can tell, you have only your opinion and unsubstantiated claims of power.

[Skylivedk]

Well, you should stop. It was wrong then, and it's only more wrong if it hasn't been updated with options from Xanathar's.

Wrong then, how? Most of it still holds. Especially for the examples used since they were all PHB



On a scale of 4-6, that means the 6 is 50% better than the 4. I don't think you can demonstrate anything even matching that degree of difference, and you certainly can't justify the kind of difference represented by 2 or 3 versus 7 or higher. It's just not there. As far as I can tell, you have only your opinion and unsubstantiated claims of power.
And I'd prefer to have a Sorcadin in my party (from a power point of view) at least three times as often as I'd like the Frenzy barbarian. It depends on what the 1 and 10 mean on your scale, how power is defined, etc. To me it's a mix between versatility, peak performance in and out of combat and outside combat utility.

If you believe the game is perfectly balanced. Great. There's no bad wrong fun. I probably would just steer clear of the 4e and frenzy barbarian at your table.

[Zalabim]

Wrong then, how? Most of it still holds. Especially for the examples used since they were all PHB
Wrong first in that Kryx is not an authority on the best practical way to play every class and subclass in the game and does not claim to be. Wrong also in that Kryx didn't include multiclassed builds and so can't be providing any direct data for your case. Wrong in that Kryx included resources and subclasses for some classes but not for others, and of those that did include use of resources, calculated their value in incongruous, inaccurate, or unlikely ways. Wrong in that Kryx's standard level-scaling opponent is a single amorphous blob of hp that is no bigger than Large with a CR that ranges from +5 to -5 compared to the party's level which is somehow battled sequentially for a total of 25-30 rounds per day, which I'm pretty sure describes no one's game anywhere. Wrong in that it's faster and more accurate to make a comparison from scratch for any purpose you'd care to use one for rather than unpack and adjust all the assumptions he made to something that makes sense for your table. Wrong in that Kryx a pig-headed auteur who cannot understand having his math corrected and gets upset and ignores people that question his assumptions.

And I'd prefer to have a Sorcadin in my party (from a power point of view) at least three times as often as I'd like the Frenzy barbarian. It depends on what the 1 and 10 mean on your scale, how power is defined, etc. To me it's a mix between versatility, peak performance in and out of combat and outside combat utility.

If you believe the game is perfectly balanced. Great. There's no bad wrong fun. I probably would just steer clear of the 4e and frenzy barbarian at your table.
I just said that 4-6 suggests the 6's are 50% better than the 4's. Perfectly balanced is a blatant strawman. Also, considering your idea of a sorcadin is just a paladin until the level where a party may have Greater Restoration available, I'd be fine with a Frenzy barbarian, and probably prefer a frenzy barbarian to a paladin that casts Blink mid-combat.

[Tanarii]

The difference here is that they can choose spells which aren't competing for their attacks.There aren't many offensive ones in the PHB.


Also, they get these spells in addition to their base class abilities, they don't need to be less of their class to cast.To some degree, that's a fair point. But the 1/3 caster comparison is just to show the relative spell power baseline available. Ki costs shouldn't be reduced, or they'll have the option to spam them to high by dumping them all into Elemental abilities.

The fraction of Ki a Monk subclass might use on their more flexible Ki options is an issue. It's a fair point they don't gain any significant at-will abilities. The question is does the expanded flexibility of Ki usage beyond what other Monks balance out their lack of at-will features?

For most people, the answer is pretty clearly No. Be that just a perception or not.

Personally I feel the power of the added flexibility in a single class game is dandy, but Elemental Attunement is incredibly Meh. Replacing it with a elemental non-damage cantrip, then selecting a new one each time you gain a Elemenetal Ki ability, gaining all four at level 17. Or just make it choose 2 at level 3 and gain one at 10, to match EKs and ATs. Possibly they could even be in addition to elemental Attunement.

The list I'm thinking of would be only the basic 4:
Control Flames
Gust
Mold Earth
Shape Water

3 of these four are S component only. Gust is VS. Don't know if that matters.

[Skylivedk]

Wrong first in that Kryx is not an authority on the best practical way to play every class and subclass in the game and does not claim to be. Wrong also in that Kryx didn't include multiclassed builds and so can't be providing any direct data for your case. Wrong in that Kryx included resources and subclasses for some classes but not for others, and of those that did include use of resources, calculated their value in incongruous, inaccurate, or unlikely ways. Wrong in that Kryx's standard level-scaling opponent is a single amorphous blob of hp that is no bigger than Large with a CR that ranges from +5 to -5 compared to the party's level which is somehow battled sequentially for a total of 25-30 rounds per day, which I'm pretty sure describes no one's game anywhere. Wrong in that it's faster and more accurate to make a comparison from scratch for any purpose you'd care to use one for rather than unpack and adjust all the assumptions he made to something that makes sense for your table. Wrong in that Kryx a pig-headed auteur who cannot understand having his math corrected and gets upset and ignores people that question his assumptions.

I just said that 4-6 suggests the 6's are 50% better than the 4's. Perfectly balanced is a blatant strawman. Also, considering your idea of a sorcadin is just a paladin until the level where a party may have Greater Restoration available, I'd be fine with a Frenzy barbarian, and probably prefer a frenzy barbarian to a paladin that casts Blink mid-combat.

Thank you for your very valid points about his math. I'll take another look at how he has done and reassess my standpoints that have been supported by his work. I wouldn't call him pig-headed. In my interactions with him, he's always been polite and responsive plus his own 5.5e (or Kryx' Houserules) is a pretty impressive body of work. I'm not trying to strawman you; pardon it came out that way.

To me a power ranking of 4-6 is close enough. Based on my experience with 5e as a player and DM since release that is not the case. My faith in the design team seems to be much less than a lot of other people's. I don't understand how 4e monk can be seen as balanced. Especially not considering their narrow options for spell choices and how those choices compete with them doing what makes them as a class in other situations. I also don't see Frenzy barbarian who is accruing one of the worst conditions every time they use their main feature is balanced. Taxing party members for a greater restoration is not dealing with the issue IMO. Then you're 2 party members needed for keeping up a so-so ability.

[Desteplo]

What I’m saying is, there’s no full trap. There’s no “toughness” feat from 3.5 etc.

Games to simple for that.

And in a way doesn’t matter. There’s a division of two thoughts here.

Cold numbers which is great for optimization and designing. Where the idea is to win. Get the best of action economy, highest damage or specializations. Numbers are great, facts are great, opinions have already been argued to best results and that’s kind of what forums are for

Or

Just to play. Where nothing is going to be wrong. You have what you have and you’ll be able to do what you feel like you want to do. Want a monk with elemental magic? You get a unique cantrip and a warlock style spell progression. You have spells that supplement the kinds of things you couldn’t do otherwise. May not be optimal or the best, but you can do more with what you have. And importantly is still fun.

If you have doubts, ask DM to be able to switch if you truly aren’t having fun. But you will be a monk with magic! If you can’t have fun with that idea then not sure 4e monk is right for you.

[ImproperJustice]

I mean, there are a few fun things you can do as a 4e Monk.

IF your GM thinks the Water Whip errata is dumb, you can run up a wall next to a foe, water whip them up to you, punch them twice and watch them fall.

Bonus points if you do this while leaping over a pit or some hazard like a camp fire.


Drop from 3 stories into a group of bad guys super hero style and unleash an iron fist thunderwave.

Take flight and Hadouken some bad guys with a fireball.

Create a Wall of Stone and then run along it to punch someone?

Gust of Wind to blow some people around.


The class does have some terrible mechanical issues, but I think there is some coolness to be found in it.

[Man_Over_Game]

So, if 4E has a number of problems (either expensive Ki costs or bad action economy, or both), what's the fix?

Pick a single cantrip (from a list) and you can now cast it with Wisdom? Choose another cantrip at 5, 11 and 17?
When you hit an enemy, using your Action to attack, with an Unarmed Strike, you regain 1 ki point?
When you are at half health, the Ki point costs of your abilities are halved (minimum of 1)?
When there is a natural source of an element within 30 feet of you (a bonfire, a raging storm, a nearby river, a mountain slope), associated powers cost half as many Ki points?

[Garfunion]

So, if 4E has a number of problems (either expensive Ki costs or bad action economy, or both), what's the fix?

Pick a single cantrip (from a list) and you can now cast it with Wisdom?That could help. The current cantrip like ability the 4e monk gets, is a little lack luster.


When there is a natural source of an element within 30 feet of you (a bonfire, a raging storm, a nearby river, a mountain slope), associated powers cost half as many Ki points?That sound interesting as well. Benders need the element near by to use their powers.

[Man_Over_Game]

Hmm.. How about this: An extensive list of every "Four Elements" cantrip in the game. You get one at level 3, and you gain another cantrip ever 2 levels you gain into the Class afterwards, giving more incentive to invest into it. Maybe make some requirement that you cannot pick a cantrip that deals the same damage type as another cantrip you picked with this feature.

Things like Create Bonfire, Control Flames, Firebolt, and Produce Flame would be on the whole list, but because 3 out of 4 of these deal Fire damage, you can only pick one of those, but you could still grab Control Flames (since it doesn't deal Fire damage).

This would mean that you'd have a lot of options for RP effects, but without being too overwhelming in combat options.

[Scarytincan]

Could consider refluffing horizon walker ranger as a wind and air based ranger

[NaughtyTiger]

So, if 4E has a number of problems (either expensive Ki costs or bad action economy, or both), what's the fix?

Flames of fire snake base attack should be 0Ki, still weaker than radiant soul monk. (shorter range and commonly resisted, BUT can be pumped up)
Water whip/Fist of air should be bonus action OR replace 1 attack.

If it is a martial 1/3 caster, then it should get at-will abilities, similar to cantrips

[stoutstien]

Flames of fire snake base attack should be 0Ki, still weaker than radiant soul monk. (shorter range and commonly resisted, BUT can be pumped up)
Water whip/Fist of air should be bonus action OR replace 1 attack.

If it is a martial 1/3 caster, then it should get at-will abilities, similar to cantrips
Yea the real issue for 4-ele monks is not every single feature has a ki cost. Compared to every other monk who has at least one free feature.

[Garfunion]

Hmm.. How about this: An extensive list of every "Four Elements" cantrip in the game.

In addition to learning Elemental Disciplines you learn one cantrip chosen from the list below. The element that the cantrip is connected to, must be within 10ft of you to cast the cantrip. You do not need to provide the material component to cast the chosen cantrip. Use your Wisdom modifier + your proficiency bonus when making a spell attack, with the chosen cantrip. You learn an additional cantrips at 6th, 11th, and 16th levels.

Dancing Lights(fire)
Mage Hand(air)
Mending (earth)
Produce Flame(fire)
Ray of Frost(water)
Shocking Grasp(air)
Shillelagh(earth)
Spare the Dying(water)

[Grod_The_Giant]

So, if 4E has a number of problems (either expensive Ki costs or bad action economy, or both), what's the fix?
I'm not sure there's an easy one. Offhand, I'd say...hmm. I'd be tempted to say "make it a 1/3 caster, with an option to convert Ki to spell slots and vice versa" might be the best quick-and-elegant change you can make.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm not sure there's an easy one. Offhand, I'd say...hmm. I'd be tempted to say "make it a 1/3 caster, with an option to convert Ki to spell slots and vice versa" might be the best quick-and-elegant change you can make.

That's not a terrible idea, the problem would be coming up with the spell list involved. Do you use Druid, with the large number of unrelated animal/spiritual spells? Do you use strictly Evocation Wizard, with the unrelated acid/poison/force damage spells? Or do you just make up a list that's only usable for this class, different from how every other 1/3 caster is made for the game?

[ad_hoc]

I'm not sure there's an easy one. Offhand, I'd say...hmm. I'd be tempted to say "make it a 1/3 caster, with an option to convert Ki to spell slots and vice versa" might be the best quick-and-elegant change you can make.

I think the most elegant change would be to base other elements off of the Sun Soul.

Always on ability at level 3
Bonus Action spell attack costing Ki at level 6

and so on

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's not a terrible idea, the problem would be coming up with the spell list involved. Do you use Druid, with the large number of unrelated animal/spiritual spells? Do you use strictly Evocation Wizard, with the unrelated acid/poison/force damage spells? Or do you just make up a list that's only usable for this class, different from how every other 1/3 caster is made for the game?
Evocation and Abjuration off the Druid list?

[Man_Over_Game]

Evocation and Abjuration off the Druid list?

Did a quick check on that. It misses a few things, like Water Walk and Water Breathing, and it gets some unrelated things, like healing spells and Wrath of Nature, but it's really not bad. It does end up having a lot of overlap with the Ranger, though. Both melee 1/3 casters who are bonus action dependent and have good mobility and have similar AC.

But it's a good step in the right direction. I personally think a catered spell list would do just fine.

Here's an idea that works off of one of my prior suggestions:

When you roll initiative, the DM tells you what the most predominant element is of the area (Fire, Earth, Water, Air). When you use a spell with the identified key word, it costs half as many Ki points as listed. It rewards players for being diverse, while providing players a distinct understanding of what's available and what's not.

In addition, you can detect anomalies related to these four elements, in a 1 mile radius, when you meditate to regain Ki. An anomaly may be things such as a large pocket of Air surrounded by Earth (indicating an underground cave), or some source of Fire surrounded by Water (indicative of a potentially magic fire item). This can also be used to detect spikes of elemental energy, such as magic being cast, or elemental creatures.

[NaughtyTiger]

and it gets some unrelated things, like healing spells and Wrath of Nature, but it's really not bad.

healing is relevant to Water benders healing ability... it is actually a decent fit. I like where this is going.

[Skylivedk]

Did a quick check on that. It misses a few things, like Water Walk and Water Breathing, and it gets some unrelated things, like healing spells and Wrath of Nature, but it's really not bad. It does end up having a lot of overlap with the Ranger, though. Both melee 1/3 casters who are bonus action dependent and have good mobility and have similar AC.

But it's a good step in the right direction. I personally think a catered spell list would do just fine.

Here's an idea that works off of one of my prior suggestions:

When you roll initiative, the DM tells you what the most predominant element is of the area (Fire, Earth, Water, Air). When you use a spell with the identified key word, it costs half as many Ki points as listed. It rewards players for being diverse, while providing players a distinct understanding of what's available and what's not.

In addition, you can detect anomalies related to these four elements, in a 1 mile radius, when you meditate to regain Ki. An anomaly may be things such as a large pocket of Air surrounded by Earth (indicating an underground cave), or some source of Fire surrounded by Water (indicative of a potentially magic fire item). This can also be used to detect spikes of elemental energy, such as magic being cast, or elemental creatures.

I like this direction.

I thought of a new cross class list for them and give them WIS modifier pr. long rest as extra ki. I don't see those two bumps bring them up to top tier anyway.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Okay, here's my thinking:


Way of the Four Elements, Revised

Spellcasting


Cantrips: You start with 2 cantrips from the druid spell list. At level 10 you gain a 3rd cantrip known.

Spell Slots: The Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.

Spells Known: You know three 1st level druid spells of your choice, two must come from the evocation and abjuration spell schools. The third spell can be from any druid school of magic.

The Spells Known column of the Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table shows when you learn more druid spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be an abjuration or evocation spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

The spells you learn at 8th, 14th, and 20th level can come from any school of magic.

Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the druid spells you know with another spell of your choice from the druid spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an abjuration or evocation spell, unless you're replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level.

Spellcasting Ability: Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your druid spells. You use your Wisdom whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability.

Spellcasting Focus: Your body counts as a spellcasting focus for your druid spells. You do not need to provide verbal components to your spells, but all your spells require a somatic component, even if they did not previously have one.


Elemental Attunement: Beginning at 3rd level, you can use a bonus action to cause one of the following effects of your choice:

Create a harmless, instantaneous sensory effect related to air, earth, fire, or water, such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, a spray of light mist, or a gentle rumbling of stone.
Instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.
Chill or warm up to 1 pound of nonliving material for up to 1 hour.
Cause earth, fire, water, or mist that can fit within a 1-foot cube to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute.


Ki Casting: Beginning at 6th level, you can transform ki points into one spell slot as a bonus action on your turn. The created spell slots vanish at the end of a short or long rest. The Creating Spell Slots table shows the cost of creating a spell slot of a given level. You can create spell slots no higher in level than 5th.

Slot Level - Cost
1st - 2
2nd - 3
3rd - 5
4th - 6

Martial Invocation: Beginning at 11th level, after casting one of your Four Elements spells, you may make an unarmed strike as a bonus action.

Stunning Spell: Beginning at 17th level, when you damage a creature with one of your Four Elements spells, you may use your Stunning Strike ability on them as though they'd been hit by a melee weapon attack. If your spell damages multiple creatures, you may attempt to stun any or all of them, spending 1 Ki point per target to be stunned.

[Tanarii]

That's ... a pretty huge boost. Most of a monks power is already in the base class, unlike a Fighter or Rogue, which get large amounts of their power from their subclass. Layering free 1/3 casting on top of that is amazing. And then a bunch of other free stuff at later levels? You're definitely crossing the line into broken OP.

I like the Evocation & Abjuration Druid thing tho.

[Vorpalchicken]

I am the first to admit that they are inefficient in a side by side comparison with other monks. But every time I've seen one in play, their player has gotten a lot of enjoyment out of their character. Thunderwave. Fly. Fireball. Fun.

Also, as an aside, an interesting choice for a simulacrum.

[NaughtyTiger]

Grod
the level 6 ability is too strong. (all spells back every short rest is wow)
the added flexibity for spells good.
cantrips good.
stunning spell good
bonus action attack is good (that might be okay for 6th level)

[Dark Schneider]

Power probably is fine, but looks like four elements monks are made to deplete quickly and then rest, as ki is restored with short rest.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's ... a pretty huge boost. Most of a monks power is already in the base class, unlike a Fighter or Rogue, which get large amounts of their power from their subclass. Layering free 1/3 casting on top of that is amazing. And then a bunch of other free stuff at later levels? You're definitely crossing the line into broken OP.

I like the Evocation & Abjuration Druid thing tho.
Really? I'd argue the exact opposite-- the Fighter and Rogue are probably the LEAST dependent on their subclasses. Something like a Champion Fighter or Inquisitive Rogue gets almost nothing in terms of combat boosts and still functions just fine.

The 4e casting version I posted doesn't get the awesome defensive power of an EK, doesn't get the SCAGtrips and familiar of an AT, and doesn't have any way to impose disadvantage on saves. They don't even get much blasting power, because the Druid list is pretty stingy on that front and most of what they do get isn't evocation. It's a list that's more fluffy than strong.

@NaughtyTiger: the slots vanish at the end of a short rest. You can burn all your Ki on casting spells, but then you're not using any monk stuff.

[Tanarii]

Really? I'd argue the exact opposite-- the Fighter and Rogue are probably the LEAST dependent on their subclasses. Something like a Champion Fighter or Inquisitive Rogue gets almost nothing in terms of combat boosts and still functions just fine.Inquisitive is utterly amazing.

Champion is a bit meh for Fighter Subclasses. But your monk rewrite would be like giving it a 17-20 crit range at level 1, x2 proficiency bonus to all physical checks at level 7 (stacking with skills), and two new fighting styles at level 10. You've doubled the power.

[djreynolds]

Okay, here's my thinking:


Way of the Four Elements, Revised

Spellcasting


Cantrips: You start with 2 cantrips from the druid spell list. At level 10 you gain a 3rd cantrip known.

Spell Slots: The Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.

Spells Known: You know three 1st level druid spells of your choice, two must come from the evocation and abjuration spell schools. The third spell can be from any druid school of magic.

The Spells Known column of the Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table shows when you learn more druid spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be an abjuration or evocation spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

The spells you learn at 8th, 14th, and 20th level can come from any school of magic.

Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the druid spells you know with another spell of your choice from the druid spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an abjuration or evocation spell, unless you're replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level.

Spellcasting Ability: Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your druid spells. You use your Wisdom whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability.

Spellcasting Focus: Your body counts as a spellcasting focus for your druid spells. You do not need to provide verbal components to your spells, but all your spells require a somatic component, even if they did not previously have one.


Elemental Attunement: Beginning at 3rd level, you can use a bonus action to cause one of the following effects of your choice:

Create a harmless, instantaneous sensory effect related to air, earth, fire, or water, such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, a spray of light mist, or a gentle rumbling of stone.
Instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.
Chill or warm up to 1 pound of nonliving material for up to 1 hour.
Cause earth, fire, water, or mist that can fit within a 1-foot cube to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute.


Ki Casting: Beginning at 6th level, you can transform ki points into one spell slot as a bonus action on your turn. The created spell slots vanish at the end of a short or long rest. The Creating Spell Slots table shows the cost of creating a spell slot of a given level. You can create spell slots no higher in level than 5th.


Martial Invocation: Beginning at 11th level, after casting one of your Four Elements spells, you may make an unarmed strike as a bonus action.

Stunning Spell: Beginning at 17th level, when you damage a creature with one of your Four Elements spells, you may use your Stunning Strike ability on them as though they'd been hit by a melee weapon attack. If your spell damages multiple creatures, you may attempt to stun any or all of them, spending 1 Ki point per target to be stunned.

Is this real??
Or you just making this up??

Its really good, I'd even take just the cantrip like lightning lure or thornwhip

[EdenIndustries]

Although your version there is interesting Grod, to me it lacks the most interesting thing about 4E Monk which is cheap upcasting of spells. While Hold Person normally costs 3 Ki, you can upcast it by one level per ki point. That's crazy! At level 6 (when you can learn the ability) you have 6 ki points so you can walk into a room and cast Hold Person on 4 people. Every short rest! That shouldn't be underestimated! Granted, just Humanoids, but even so. Any room you enter as a 4E Monk with Humanoids (especially with other martials in your party) just had the tides turned against them in a massive way.

Cheap upcasting of spells is I think the most underestimated feature of the 4E Monk and the feature which intrigues me most about playing one.

[Daghoulish]

Although your version there is interesting Grod, to me it lacks the most interesting thing about 4E Monk which is cheap upcasting of spells. While Hold Person normally costs 3 Ki, you can upcast it by one level per ki point. That's crazy! At level 6 (when you can learn the ability) you have 6 ki points so you can walk into a room and cast Hold Person on 4 people. Every short rest! That shouldn't be underestimated! Granted, just Humanoids, but even so. Any room you enter as a 4E Monk with Humanoids (especially with other martials in your party) just had the tides turned against them in a massive way.

Cheap upcasting of spells is I think the most underestimated feature of the 4E Monk and the feature which intrigues me most about playing one.

Sorry to say you can't do that. 4E has a hard cap on how much you can upcast things based on your level. Here's the passage about it.

The maximum number of ki poinls you can spend to cast a spell in this Way (including its base ki point cost and any additional ki points you spend increase its level) is determined by your monk level, as shown in the Spells and Ki Points table
SPELLS AND KI POINTS
WAY OF THE FOUR ELEMENTS
Monk Level - Maximum Ki Points for a Spell
5th-8th 3
9th-12th 4
13th-16th 5
17th-20th 6

[EdenIndustries]

Sorry to say you can't do that. 4E has a hard cap on how much you can upcast things based on your level. Here's the passage about it.

The maximum number of ki poinls you can spend to cast a spell in this Way (including its base ki point cost and any additional ki points you spend increase its level) is determined by your monk level, as shown in the Spells and Ki Points table
SPELLS AND KI POINTS
WAY OF THE FOUR ELEMENTS
Monk Level - Maximum Ki Points for a Spell
5-8th 3
9-12th 4
13-16th 5
17-20th 6

Darn, quite right. Well it still does allow cheap upcasting, but you're right that it's not quite as exciting as I made it out to be!

[R.Shackleford]

Okay, here's my thinking:


Way of the Four Elements, Revised

Spellcasting


Cantrips: You start with 2 cantrips from the druid spell list. At level 10 you gain a 3rd cantrip known.

Spell Slots: The Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.

Spells Known: You know three 1st level druid spells of your choice, two must come from the evocation and abjuration spell schools. The third spell can be from any druid school of magic.

The Spells Known column of the Eldritch Knight Spellcasting table shows when you learn more druid spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be an abjuration or evocation spell of your choice, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

The spells you learn at 8th, 14th, and 20th level can come from any school of magic.

Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the druid spells you know with another spell of your choice from the druid spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an abjuration or evocation spell, unless you're replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level.

Spellcasting Ability: Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your druid spells. You use your Wisdom whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability.

Spellcasting Focus: Your body counts as a spellcasting focus for your druid spells. You do not need to provide verbal components to your spells, but all your spells require a somatic component, even if they did not previously have one.


Elemental Attunement: Beginning at 3rd level, you can use a bonus action to cause one of the following effects of your choice:

Create a harmless, instantaneous sensory effect related to air, earth, fire, or water, such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, a spray of light mist, or a gentle rumbling of stone.
Instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.
Chill or warm up to 1 pound of nonliving material for up to 1 hour.
Cause earth, fire, water, or mist that can fit within a 1-foot cube to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute.


Ki Casting: Beginning at 6th level, you can transform ki points into one spell slot as a bonus action on your turn. The created spell slots vanish at the end of a short or long rest. The Creating Spell Slots table shows the cost of creating a spell slot of a given level. You can create spell slots no higher in level than 5th.


Martial Invocation: Beginning at 11th level, after casting one of your Four Elements spells, you may make an unarmed strike as a bonus action.

Stunning Spell: Beginning at 17th level, when you damage a creature with one of your Four Elements spells, you may use your Stunning Strike ability on them as though they'd been hit by a melee weapon attack. If your spell damages multiple creatures, you may attempt to stun any or all of them, spending 1 Ki point per target to be stunned.

I don't think this is bad...Really strong, but not bad... But it lacks all the fluff of the 4E Monk that I love.

I think I would go the other way with the sub-class and get rid of all the instances of casting stock spells and go with more things like Fangs of the Fire Snake, Fist of Unbroken Air and Water Whip (which needs a better name lol). So that the 4E monk feels distinct. I would center the features around Step of the Wind, Flurry of Blows, and Patient Defense.

[NaughtyTiger]

Inquisitive is utterly amazing.

Champion is a bit meh for Fighter Subclasses. But your monk rewrite would be like giving it a 17-20 crit range at level 1, x2 proficiency bonus to all physical checks at level 7 (stacking with skills), and two new fighting styles at level 10. You've doubled the power.

And 4E is really meh for Monk Subclass
Grog doubled the power of a fairly weak archetype.
It is too strong (ki + spell slots!!), but far more inline with the typical 1/3 caster.
Level 6 needs to be downgraded to a ribbon, and slots replaced with Ki (different than my earlier citique

You normally aren't prone to hyperbole, so you must really believe this is seriously OP, but I don't see it.

[Tanarii]

A
It is too strong (ki + spell slots!!), but far more inline with the typical 1/3 caster.the other 1/3 casters dont have the monk class as the base chassis.


You normally aren't prone to hyperbole, so you must really believe this is seriously OP, but I don't see it.
You take that back, I'm totally prone to hyperbole! 😂

But in this case, its a drastic increase in power, and quite clearly OP. I dont see any hyperbole in that statement at all.

[Zalabim]

At least with the EK it's pretty clear that the spell slots come at the cost of superiority dice altogether. Plus, both Fighter and Rogue have pretty strong uses for actions so that the spells they do learn mostly expand their options rather than increase their power. Certainly the four elements monk is not particularly strong. There's room for it to be improved without breaking anything. But it's not so bad that it can't be used effectively as it is.

[Dark Schneider]

You forget the monk also gets multiple attacks, improves movement, and many other advantages that a caster, fighter or rogue will not have. You can use 1 ki point for free movement as bonus action (no oportunity attacks), and much more (like proficiency in ALL saving throws, and getting ALL languages).

The addition of casting ability using ki points is balanced to me, and nothing underpowered, as ki is restored with a short rest, while spell slots require a long rest.

[Tanarii]

At least with the EK it's pretty clear that the spell slots come at the cost of superiority dice altogether.
Rogue subclasses aren't really so clear of course.

But yeah, PHB Monk subclasses were designed so they get added flexibly use of their Ki at level 3. Not a bunch of new abilities. XtGE broke that paradigm, but only in a minor way, adding some relatively small bonuses. Not by adding 1/3 casting slots .. and then turning it up to 11 later on.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You forget the monk also gets multiple attacks, improves movement, and many other advantages that a caster, fighter or rogue will not have. You can use 1 ki point for free movement as bonus action (no oportunity attacks), and much more (like proficiency in ALL saving throws, and getting ALL languages).
But... the Rogue and Fighter get stuff like that too? The Fighter gets more extra attacks than anyone, extra ACTIONS, self healing, and save boosts; the Rogue gets even better skirmishing abilities than the Monk (what with Cunning Action being free), one of the most reliable damage streams in the game, and better skills than anything.

I don't think the 4e-monk-as-a-caster is as broken as all that, but I'm also not wildly attached. It was more an experiment in using existing mechanics to improve the subclass, as opposed to the total rewrite it could really use.

[ad_hoc]

Yeah, for as bad as the 4E Monk is, you can't just give them 1/3 spellcasting.

The Sun Soul Monk is the perfect implementation of an elemental Monk.

Just make different ones of those for different elements.

Of course, no one wants to do that for their homebrew because they just want to create overpowered monstrosities instead.

[Misterwhisper]

Wrong.
Open Hand's "at will" relies on Flurry of Blows -> costs Ki (same with Drunken Master). Lvl 6 is once per rest. Level 17 costs ki.
Shadow's "at will" relies on dim light, which will more often than not require Darkness at least if you want some control over where you want to go.
Long Death's "at will" is a true at-will, but exactly like 4e, blocks any offensive bonus action.
Kensei is the only one bringing real "at will" still allowing you to attack, but it takes bonus action instead.

Your own example right there is why 4e is horrible.

1. Open hand gets a free very nice bonus when they use flurry of blows, which is going to be used most of the time anyway. The same goes for drunken master, new bonus on an ability you already use regularly.

4e has to spend the same amount or even more of their resource to do something that is for the most part would not even get used if it was free.

2. Shadow has its own huge flaws, and while similar to 4e, they they have one resource pool, get no enhancement to the amount of that pool, but now have many new abilities that require you to use that resource, which you can not do in the same round as your normal options.

3. They are balanced to be 1/3 casters, but still have the same number of resources to dip into as their normal abilities.

The whole subclass could be fixed with one of 2 simple changes.

1. give them a separate ki pool that can o oh be used on 4e abilities. Either wis bonus per short rest, or class level per long rest.

2. Just make it a normal 1/3 casting class like arcane trickster or eldritch knight.

[NaughtyTiger]

fighter: asi/feat at 6 and 10, extra attack at 5 and 11 and 17, massive armor/weapon
rogue: save for 0 damage or flat half damage - 1/round, additional damage dice... lots of additional damage dice, double proficiency, see invisble, guaranteed success, ...


Yeah, for as bad as the 4E Monk is, you can't just give them 1/3 spellcasting.
why not?

fighter: asi/feat at 6 and 10, extra attack at 5 and 11 and 17, massive armor/weapon
rogue: save for 0 damage or flat half damage - 1/round, additional damage dice... lots of additional damage dice, double proficiency, see invisble, guaranteed success, ...