Are the demigods stuffed?

[thereaper]

Given that The Dark One doesn't have enough worshippers to survive into the next world, would that also imply that the Demigods are in the same boat? By their very nature, they almost certainly have fewer worshippers than The Dark One.

[Whispri]

Maybe not, they may be short on worshippers in comparison to the Dark One, but they do have more believers, on account of being part of a pantheon. Whether or not that's enough is another matter, but the Dark One stands alone.

[Mad Humanist]

Thor seems to be referring to stores of fat more than anything else.

Still I wonder if it also depends on whether they harvest the souls or not. Maybe some Gods who want to destroy the world would specifically want to deprive the Dark One (and perhaps Hel) of their souls from this world.

[Anymage]

This is admittedly unsupported headcanon, highly specific versions of existing gods might merge into the larger, more general case during the downtime between worlds. The god of runecraft and other dwarven magic might merge with Odin once the concept of dwarves and their related concepts stops being a distinct thing.

The fact that the demigods we have seen haven't included any clear throwbacks means that any ones based on world specific ideas are indeed stuffed, and the fact that Thor explicitly mentioned gods not making it through the downtime means that getting stuffed has happened. And even in my headcanon version, having your memories and personality only exist in a small part of someone else's head isn't exactly a good outcome.

[factotum]

I'm pretty sure the Dark One's problem is that he hasn't had *time* to build up belief, not that he doesn't have enough worshippers. The demigods have presumably been around for a lot longer than he has, and are also sponsored by an existing pantheon, so they don't have to "go it alone" during the transition to the new world.

[Zholvar]

Given that Thor says Gods have faded away even with more worshippers than TDO, i would guess some of them are in trouble, others not. Mostly depending on "time" to be established as given in the "Nutrition" explaination. I would say that demigods that started before Stickworld should be better of than those who have ascended.

Furhter we don't know what (if any) benefits are there in being a (demi)god that belongs to a pantheon, for example Thor worshippers know of Odin, Loki and the others. Particulary interesting would be to get more info on the 12 Gods, which we only see as pantheistic worhsip so far, or have we seen a "rat only" worshipper?

Another question is if "endangered (demi)gods" know of that danger.

[D.One]

I believe maybe some demigods might die out with this world and some might survive, given that some of them (Dvalin being my first bet) might be from this world and thus might not have enough "god nourishment" to survive.

That said, I don't really believe it's a matter of being a full god or a demigod, because I see that as "god levels", and I see Thor's remark about surviving this world or not as "god's stock of godly food".

The demigods have fewer god levels, and that's why they are called "demigods". They are gods, just weaker in terms of power. DnD 3.0 Deities & Demigods had a systen of Divine Rank, that went from 0 to 20, and the ones with 1 to 5 ranks were called "demigods" because they were less powerful, but they were still gods, with clerics and granting spells and a divine domain and all that god stuff. It was just that their "god level" was low. That said, they might still have accumulated more "god food" or "god fat" to survive the transition beetween worlds.

[Synesthesy]

Being a demigod and being a newly ascended god are two different unrelated situations, for what we know.

[Mad Humanist]

Being a demigod and being a newly ascended god are two different unrelated situations, for what we know.


Yeah it's possible some of the demi-gods go right back to the beginning. So many details are elided over. The text is not a technical text. It's a story.

[Goblin_Priest]

From what I gather, all the ascended gods would wither away. The world is too young, still.

[Rrmcklin]

I've been assuming they wouldn't, but who knows. Of course, for the purposes of the story (and meta-wise, knowing this world won't be destroyed) it doesn't actually matter what would happen to them.


Being a demigod and being a newly ascended god are two different unrelated situations, for what we know.

Davlin is both a demigod and ascended mortal god. I would assume most if not all of the demi-gods were the same, because there has been absolutely no mention of them when discussing the Snarl. Or phrased another way all ascended gods might not be demi-gods, but all demi-gods are probably ascended mortals.


From what I gather, all the ascended gods would wither away. The world is too young, still.

You can't say that, either. All we know for sure is that the Dark One, specifically, probably won't make it. It tells us nothing about how the elven gods, or any others would do.

[D.One]

I've been assuming they wouldn't, but who knows. Of course, for the purposes of the story (and meta-wise, knowing this world won't be destroyed) it doesn't actually matter what happens to them.

Quite that.


You can't say that, either. All we know for sure is that the Dark One, specifically, probably won't make it. It tells us nothing about how the elven gods, or any others would do.

The key point seems to be recently ascended or previously ascended. TDO seems to be young, even by this worlds standards, and has the disadvantage of not having the "shared belief" of a pantheon.


Davlin is both a demigod and ascended mortal god. I would assume most if not all of the demi-gods were the same, because there has been absolutely no mention of them when discussing the Snarl. Or phrased another way all ascended gods might not be demi-gods, but all demi-gods are probably ascended mortals.

We can't be sure of that. In fact, the status as demigods only says that they are not very powerful and/or influential among the gods.

[Rrmcklin]

Quite that.



The key point seems to be recently ascended or previously ascended. TDO seems to be young, even by this worlds standards, and has the disadvantage of not having the "shared belief" of a pantheon.



We can't be sure of that. In fact, the status as demigods only says that they are not very powerful and/or influential among the gods.

The key point seems to be having enough of a following that a good gets enough of the four things to last the "drought". Time is a factor in that, but what actually matters.

See the point above, if Thor has seen gods with more followers than the Dark One not make it, it seems very unlikely that someone like Davlin or any of the other demigods who by their very nature have very little following and power would be able to make it, even if they've been around longer.

[RelentlessImp]

It's somewhat explained but you gotta reach for it. Basically, being part of a Pantheon allows Belief and Worship to be shared, generally, among other members of that Pantheon, thus newly ascended Demigods could possibly survive on the dregs of a multi-million worshiper Pantheon that they receive as overflow. The Northern and Twelve Gods seem to be worshiped as a whole, as a multitheistic pantheon, while The Dark One is a pantheon of one, and thus can only survive on the Belief and Worship of the individuals who worship him. Any Demigods that are an accepted part of the Northern or Twelve Gods Pantheon are likely receiving a good amount of worship from those who don't directly worship them, but do worship the pantheon.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Given that The Dark One doesn't have enough worshippers to survive into the next world, would that also imply that the Demigods are in the same boat? By their very nature, they almost certainly have fewer worshippers than The Dark One.

Surtur and Thyrm I could see being demigods powerful enough to go to each new world. The rest no

[Windscion]

Um, if the demigods would not survive the transition, I would expect them to vote in a block to say 'do not destroy the world'.

[Rrmcklin]

Um, if the demigods would not survive the transition, I would expect them to vote in a block to say 'do not destroy the world'.

That assumes they know how the process works and/or only care about themselves.

[Snails]

Um, if the demigods would not survive the transition, I would expect them to vote in a block to say 'do not destroy the world'.

My Bardic Knowledge skill says The Giant cheated fair and square.

Because this logic requires a god to stand up in the moot and say "What a minute! Before we get on to that dramatic vote which will propel the protagonists forward, let me gab for 15 minutes of exposition about stuff you do not know, we never told you, and will confuse the Readers."

So, yes, your argument makes a great deal of sense in hindsight. But it would have Turned Up The Suck on the story in the moment where it mattered.

[RatElemental]

Thor seems to be referring to stores of fat more than anything else.

Still I wonder if it also depends on whether they harvest the souls or not. Maybe some Gods who want to destroy the world would specifically want to deprive the Dark One (and perhaps Hel) of their souls from this world.

The fact that they do 'harvest' the souls is the entire reason Heimdall voted the way he did (to protect them from annihilation) and the entire point of Hel's plan, the central conflict of this book, as well as an extra bit of stakes added on top of the whole world being destroyed thing.

I think it's safe to say that they do claim the souls.

[The Pilgrim]

Um, if the demigods would not survive the transition, I would expect them to vote in a block to say 'do not destroy the world'.

It depends on the Demigod.

My headcanon on the issue is that Belief is the basic thing that grants Gods survivality. Worship keeps them mentally stable, Dedication grants them Power, and Souls are needed to keep the Outer Planes going. But the key point is that everything on the Outer Planes is made on ideas, so the basic thing you need to keep existing is that people have ideas about you. Belief.

The Dark One gets a lot of Worship and Dedication, which makes him powerful. But is lacking in Belief, as he is barely known outside goblinoid societies. Therefore, his prospects for survivality are lower than Demigods from the Three Pantheons, who may have less Worship and Dedication than The Dark One, but have a lot more Belief as everybody knows them. As soon as the world is destroyed, the idea of The Dark One existing is not powerful enough to survive on it's own until a new world is built and populated and production of Belief is resumed.

Then take, for example, Dvalin. While Dvalin belongs to the Northern Pantheon and gets more Worship and Dedication than Thrym or Surtur (on account of there being more dwarves than Fire or Ice Giants), he gets far less Belief because he is barely known outside dwarven lands. While Thrym and Surtur, as members of Thor's Rogues Gallery, are widely known everywhere, dwarven lands included, and have more presence in popular culture, even though as villains. Therefore, Thrym and Surtur have greater prospects of survivality than Dvalin, and probably have been around for several worlds, if not all, while Dvalin was ascended at the begining of this World and might not survive the transition to the next one. Likewise, the Elven Gods, even though being part of the Western Pantheon, do get way less Belief outside of Elven Lands than any "proper" deity or demigod from the Western Pantheon.

(But this is just my interpretation from Thor's description of the process)

[Zholvar]

That assumes they know how the process works and/or only care about themselves.

Yes, but given that Hel & Thyrm talk openly about the last World, and the future in the next, seems to indicate that at least some of them have knowledge/asume they make it. But yeah if you're shure you will make it, why not vote on destruction.

[Windscion]

That assumes they know how the process works and/or only care about themselves.
Knowing how the process works is iffy, but could easily be part of the orientation process for newly ascended mortals. We know, for example, that the "new" elven gods vote with the western gods, which presumably means as full members. So ascended mortal does not automatically mean demigod.
Care about themselves? Thrym and Surtur are unlikely to give a toss about anyone else. Also, Thrym could hardly stand as Hel's consort in the next world if he didn't expect to survive. (Yeah, Hel might be lying her spectral trailing hindparts off, so not exactly definitive.)
The rules of the moot are almost certainly very very old, at least in the basic outline. Use of demigods to break ties is part of those rules, even if it doesn't come up very often. This suggests to me a stable supply of demigods. (Also, except for Dvalin, they seemed tied to roles rather than being exalted mortals.)
My main point is, I expect the demigods are going to be okay whenever the world ends.

[KorvinStarmast]

Are the demigods stuffed?

The Snarl, a god eating abomination, sure hopes so. It will make them more tasty (https://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/paula-deen/southern-cornbread-stuffing-recipe-1913292).
(It's sorta near Thanksgiving, so stuff/stuffing triggers my salivation for that full meal on Turkey Day ... )

[Rrmcklin]

Knowing how the process works is iffy, but could easily be part of the orientation process for newly ascended mortals. We know, for example, that the "new" elven gods vote with the western gods, which presumably means as full members. So ascended mortal does not automatically mean demigod.
Care about themselves? Thrym and Surtur are unlikely to give a toss about anyone else. Also, Thrym could hardly stand as Hel's consort in the next world if he didn't expect to survive. (Yeah, Hel might be lying her spectral trailing hindparts off, so not exactly definitive.)
The rules of the moot are almost certainly very very old, at least in the basic outline. Use of demigods to break ties is part of those rules, even if it doesn't come up very often. This suggests to me a stable supply of demigods. (Also, except for Dvalin, they seemed tied to roles rather than being exalted mortals.)
My main point is, I expect the demigods are going to be okay whenever the world ends.

I never said ascended mortal automatically meant demigod. That's clearly not the case given the Dark One.

Davlin and the other demigods of the North vote with the Northern Pantheon, as a part of the Northern Pantheon, even if they're only the tie breaker. Them being demigods doesn't somehow mean they aren't a part of the Northern Pantheon, and it tells us nothing about the Elven Gods status (I imagine some are full gods, but others might not be so).

You also talk about the Godsmoot as if the rules are unchanging, even though we know that's untrue. Hel mentions keeping up with procedural changes, and Loki mentions regretting that "no-backsies" rule. Yes, a demigod tie breaker rule exists, but it's existence by no means implies that it was one of the original rules. It could have been, or it could have been demigods eventually appeared and that rule was created to factor them into the Godsmoot's procedures.

And my main point is that we can't actually be sure what would happen to them, but it also doesn't matter because this world isn't going to end.

[Windscion]

You also talk about the Godsmoot as if the rules are unchanging, even though we know that's untrue.... Yes, a demigod tie breaker rule exists, but it's existence by no means implies that it was one of the original rules. It could have been, or it could have been demigods eventually appeared and that rule was created to factor them into the Godsmoot's procedures.

Nope, I sure don't talk as if the rules are invariant. I talk as if the rules are of unknown age, but:

#1 Any given rule is likely, during a run of a million worlds, not to be super recent. I simply considered this obvious fact too obvious to belabour. But feel free to assume that all but a few rules are recent innovations while I explain why that's a really bad asssumption.
Let K be the number of worlds elapsed since a given rule was put in place. The range of possible values of K is 0 to at least 1 million. The expected value of K much more than one. In fact, it's much more than 1000. Close to a million, in fact, since rules were more likely to change early rather than later as they found what worked and what did not.

#2 Even if the demigods-as-tiebreakers rule is brand spanking new (K=0 from above), it still implies an expectation that demigods are available, which is more likely if, in fact, the demigods usually persist.
Since this statement carries a background of mathematical logic, I guess I have to belabour this point as well. Let N be the # of demigods.
If N=0, rule is useless. If N=1, rules turns the demigod into the designated tiebreaker, a symbolically prestigious position. Only if N>1 does the rule make sense. Therefore the assumption is that multple DGs are available, which argues toward the persistence of demidivinities through transitions.

And the demigods vs ascended mortals was brought up by others, so I took a shot at that.

PS: I should also note that the gods talking about stuff doesn't imply it is recent, since Thor remembers everyone who ever worshipped him. Gods have perfect memories, so Loki regretting "no backsies" doesn't mean this is only the 1st ... or 57346th ... time it has come up.

[Rrmcklin]

Nope, I sure don't talk as if the rules are invariant. I talk as if the rules are of unknown age, but:

#1 Any given rule is likely, during a run of a million worlds, not to be super recent. I simply considered this obvious fact too obvious to belabour. But feel free to assume that all but a few rules are recent innovations while I explain why that's a really bad asssumption.
Let K be the number of worlds elapsed since a given rule was put in place. The range of possible values of K is 0 to at least 1 million. The expected value of K much more than one. In fact, it's much more than 1000. Close to a million, in fact, since rules were more likely to change early rather than later as they found what worked and what did not.

#2 Even if the demigods-as-tiebreakers rule is brand spanking new (K=0 from above), it still implies an expectation that demigods are available, which is more likely if, in fact, the demigods usually persist.
Since this statement carries a background of mathematical logic, I guess I have to belabour this point as well. Let N be the # of demigods.
If N=0, rule is useless. If N=1, rules turns the demigod into the designated tiebreaker, a symbolically prestigious position. Only if N>1 does the rule make sense. Therefore the assumption is that multple DGs are available, which argues toward the persistence of demidivinities through transitions.

And the demigods vs ascended mortals was brought up by others, so I took a shot at that.

PS: I should also note that the gods talking about stuff doesn't imply it is recent, since Thor remembers everyone who ever worshipped him. Gods have perfect memories, so Loki regretting "no backsies" doesn't mean this is only the 1st ... or 57346th ... time it has come up.

The point isn't that the demigods rulings are "brand new" the point is your argument of "The Godsmoots rules are old, and they have rules for demigods, so the same demigods must have existed in the beginning" doesn't hold water. We know they can and have added rules so your can't reasonably argue for a point of age.

For that matter, they can have rules for demigods without it implying anything about the chances of demigods surviving. They can make rules for demigods because they consider it reasonably likely a given world will create some new demigods that they'll have to integrate into the system. It doesn't necessarily imply any given existing demigod has existed before, or will survive until the new world.

But, you seem intend on arguing against things I never said, and misinterpreting my points, so I think I'm done discussing this with you.

[Riftwolf]

Are the demigods stuffed?

The Snarl, a god eating abomination, sure hopes so. It will make them more tasty (https://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/paula-deen/southern-cornbread-stuffing-recipe-1913292).
(It's sorta near Thanksgiving, so stuff/stuffing triggers my salivation for that full meal on Turkey Day ... )

Thrym, Demigod of Frozen Turkeys in Snackworld, certainly had the threat of stuffing looming over him. His Stuffing was in fact part of the Doggy-Bagnarok, where Thrym was transformed into Surtr, Demigod of Cooked Turkeys. The transformation was difficult at first as none knew which God could stuff a frozen turkey, but it was much easier once they left it to Thor.

[D.One]

Thrym, Demigod of Frozen Turkeys in Snackworld, certainly had the threat of stuffing looming over him. His Stuffing was in fact part of the Doggy-Bagnarok, where Thrym was transformed into Surtr, Demigod of Cooked Turkeys. The transformation was difficult at first as none knew which God could stuff a frozen turkey, but it was much easier once they left it to Thor.

And now we have a glimpse of how this guys might have been seen in Movie-Snacks-World.

[Goblin_Priest]

You can't say that, either. All we know for sure is that the Dark One, specifically, probably won't make it. It tells us nothing about how the elven gods, or any others would do.

Well, it's a hypothesis. Might be wrong, but seems at least plausible to me.

After all, one of the main contributions of the lore about not being able to survive this world, other than "raise the stakes by eliminating the [next world] solution", is to address the question: "if mortals can ascend and many are known to have ascended in this world, why aren't the pantheons flooded with ascended gods from previous worlds?". "Because they couldn't gather enough reserves and they withered away before new followers could be made".

Since there's no reason to believe that they've made any more reserves in this world than any of the previous ascended gods did, then I'm inclined to opt for the "they aren't any different than the previous ascended gods, and thus they will probably wither away after this world is destroyed".

No, there's no proof that these gods are following the norm, but without proof of deviation from the norm, assuming the norm is pretty fair in my opinion.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Given that The Dark One doesn't have enough worshippers to survive into the next world, would that also imply that the Demigods are in the same boat? By their very nature, they almost certainly have fewer worshippers than The Dark One.

I assumed that part of the issue with TDO's survival chances was that he didn't have a pantheon. Perhaps having worshippers of your pantheon gives you a little bit of Belief and Worship by extension.

Also, aside from the goblins, most people don't even know TDO exists at all. The demigods and ascended elven gods are recognised, even if they don't get as much worship as the primary gods. So TDO is lacking in Belief as well.

Belief and Worship seem to be the strongest long-term sources of power for gods- Dedication goes away too quickly and you need a lot of Souls for Souls to do anything meaningful. So it makes sense that TDO would have trouble if the world was destroyed.

If that's true, the demigods and ascended gods don't have AS MUCH to worry about as TDO, although there's a good chance some still won't make it. I doubt any of the demigods would have voted to destroy the world if it meant they'd die, though.

[factotum]

Also, aside from the goblins, most people don't even know TDO exists at all. The demigods and ascended elven gods are recognised, even if they don't get as much worship as the primary gods. So TDO is lacking in Belief as well.


That's predicated on the assumption that there aren't many goblinoids compared to, say, humans or dwarves, but I don't think that's necessarily the case? If there are millions of goblinoids (which I think is so) then TDO has plenty of Belief. And that's not diluted by there being other gods, either--if you're a goblinoid you worship TDO, there really isn't any other choice.

[Potatopeelerkin]

That's predicated on the assumption that there aren't many goblinoids compared to, say, humans or dwarves, but I don't think that's necessarily the case? If there are millions of goblinoids (which I think is so) then TDO has plenty of Belief. And that's not diluted by there being other gods, either--if you're a goblinoid you worship TDO, there really isn't any other choice.

Does the power of your believers affect the power of Belief? It seems to with Worship, Dedication and Souls, so I don't imagine Belief being any different. And goblins don't often live long enough to become very powerful- any time they get reasonably high-level, they're picked off by adventurers or paladins. So if the power of your believers matters, an army of low-level goblins may not be much better than a handful of high-level adventurers.

We also have indication that not all goblinoids particularly care or even know about TDO. Oona talks about how bugbears aren't that dedicated to TDO, and I can imagine communities of hard-done-by norkers and nilbogs that doubt TDO's existence at all. Most of the goblins we've seen know and worship TDO, but most of the goblins we've seen also come into contact with TDO's high priest regularly, so they're not a good indicator of broader goblin beliefs.

The fact that notable goblin clerics die so often would make it hard to spread the religion, after all.

I wouldn't imagine Belief being diluted by other gods... even if you worship Loki and hate Thor, you still believe Thor exists, and that recognition should still give him power (to my understanding, that's what separates Belief from Worship). Dilution between pantheons, sure (as a worshipper of the Northern gods may not know all the Western ones) but you probably believe in all the gods of your own pantheon.

[factotum]

So if the power of your believers matters, an army of low-level goblins may not be much better than a handful of high-level adventurers.

We also have indication that not all goblinoids particularly care or even know about TDO.

Those are both also the case for other gods. High-level adventures seem to be pretty rare in the Stickverse, and not all of those particularly care about the Gods--look at Roy, who doesn't seem to have strong beliefs in any god (although he acknowledges they exist). Also, that whole thing about belief being more powerful for high-level characters is, as far as I can tell, something you made up--there's nothing I can think of in the strip that supports it.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Those are both also the case for other gods. High-level adventures seem to be pretty rare in the Stickverse, and not all of those particularly care about the Gods--look at Roy, who doesn't seem to have strong beliefs in any god (although he acknowledges they exist). Also, that whole thing about belief being more powerful for high-level characters is, as far as I can tell, something you made up--there's nothing I can think of in the strip that supports it.

There's nothing that indicates Belief is, but Hel has said that she's held back by her undead clerics dying before they ever reach any decent level, I think. Can someone better with the archives than me confirm?

Assuming I haven't just invented a page, that suggests that the power of Worship and Dedication is influenced by the strength of their clerics. So it seems likely that Belief is the same way.

Roy acknowledges the gods exist, that means he believes in them. You're thinking of Worship- since he doesn't pray to or supplicate to them he wouldn't provide them with Worship. The description given IN-COMIC for belief is "Belief is when mortals know we exist, in these specific identities" which does fit Roy's relationship with the Northern gods, and pretty closely matches what you said about Roy too!

[factotum]

There's nothing that indicates Belief is, but Hel has said that she's held back by her undead clerics dying before they ever reach any decent level, I think. Can someone better with the archives than me confirm?

If she said that (and I can't remember one way or the other) then I'd interpret that more as "no clerics" means "no-one to spread the word of Hel and get her worshippers"--which is why she canonically has *no* living worshippers.

[D.One]

If she said that (and I can't remember one way or the other) then I'd interpret that more as "no clerics" means "no-one to spread the word of Hel and get her worshippers"--which is why she canonically has *no* living worshippers.

"Now that I don't have clerics to spread my words, the mortals don't know enough to thank me." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html)

[JeenLeen]

Given that the demigods weren't all strongly opposed to destroying the world, I think they probably feel they will survive.

That's a bit tongue-in-check, but I mean it overall. I reckon some would be selfless enough to want to end the world, risking their own death, rather than risk the final destruction of mortal souls. But not all of them. And none of them seemed to use a selfish reason like that for voting No. (It wouldn't have been stated explicitly yet, since we didn't know enough plot, but it coulda been mentioned as foreshadowing.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Thrym, Demigod of Frozen Turkeys in Snackworld, certainly had the threat of stuffing looming over him. His Stuffing was in fact part of the Doggy-Bagnarok, where Thrym was transformed into Surtr, Demigod of Cooked Turkeys. The transformation was difficult at first as none knew which God could stuff a frozen turkey, but it was much easier once they left it to Thor. And there stood Thor, trying to tenderize the turkey with his hammer ... the forzen turkey cracked ... and created thereby the first ever nuggets of poultry. The Golden Arches were an attempt to mimic the rainbow bridge to Asgard ... :smallyuk:

[Emanick]

Given that the demigods weren't all strongly opposed to destroying the world, I think they probably feel they will survive.

That's a bit tongue-in-check, but I mean it overall. I reckon some would be selfless enough to want to end the world, risking their own death, rather than risk the final destruction of mortal souls. But not all of them. And none of them seemed to use a selfish reason like that for voting No. (It wouldn't have been stated explicitly yet, since we didn't know enough plot, but it coulda been mentioned as foreshadowing.)

My guess (which seems reasonable to me, but is still only a guess) is that Dvalin is the only Northern demigod to have ascended in this world. The others, then, don't have to worry about risking their skins when it comes to destroying the world, and Dvalin himself is so Lawful (and Good, probably) that it's hard for me to picture him putting his own sense of self-preservation over his fidelity to the wishes of the Council of Elders.

[Fyraltari]

My guess (which seems reasonable to me, but is still only a guess) is that Dvalin is the only Northern demigod to have ascended in this world. The others, then, don't have to worry about risking their skins when it comes to destroying the world, and Dvalin himself is so Lawful (and Good, probably) that it's hard for me to picture him putting his own sense of self-preservation over his fidelity to the wishes of the Council of Elders.

My money is on Dvalin being LN. I mean, come on.

[Riftwolf]

My money is on Dvalin being LN. I mean, come on.

I bet Lawful Lawful.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Is Extra Lawful Mega Stupid an option?

[mjasghar]

With reference to goblinoid numbers
Part of the design of goblinoids in Oots world is a very very high fertility rate to allow them to be XP fodder
When a bunch of hobgobs effectively had peace with their local humanoids the result was a population that rocketed into unbelievable numbers
In a world with peace with the Dark One the goblinoids could end up outbreeding every other race to the level of causing environmental apocalypse or forcing them to go to war anyway

[Potatopeelerkin]

"Now that I don't have clerics to spread my words, the mortals don't know enough to thank me." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1082.html)

Hmm, that wasn't the page I was looking for... It was more along the lines of how every wight or similar undead with a high enough level got killed as the last boss of a dungeon. But perhaps I'm confusing myself and thinking Hel said that when it was really someone else, or making it up entirely.

[Jasdoif]

Hmm, that wasn't the page I was looking for... It was more along the lines of how every wight or similar undead with a high enough level got killed as the last boss of a dungeon. But perhaps I'm confusing myself and thinking Hel said that when it was really someone else, or making it up entirely.HPoH said it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html).

[Potatopeelerkin]

HPoH said it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html).

Thank you! Unfortunately I guess that doesn't really back up my point at all. Ah well, it's still a possible explanation.

I don't think it's likely that the ascended gods will all die. The Western pantheon (of which the ascended elven gods are members of) voted Yes- seeing as the Western gods sponsored them in the first place, would they really be willing to let them die? It seems more likely to me that either low-level hobgoblin worship and belief isn't worth that much, TDO isn't recognised enough by goblins to overcome the rest of the world's lack of knowledge about his existence, or a pantheon sponsorship gives them a large advantage.

[Riftwolf]

I don't think it's likely that the ascended gods will all die. The Western pantheon (of which the ascended elven gods are members of) voted Yes- seeing as the Western gods sponsored them in the first place, would they really be willing to let them die?

The majority voted yes. We don't even know if the Elven Gods voted at all. And seeing as the comic has had a literal Word of God saying 'The demigods might not make it and others have died before', I'm not sure what you're basing your 'probably okay' verdict on. Do you think the Western Pantheon are any more compassionate and altruistic than the reasons for voting yes we've seen from the Northern Pantheon?

Thinking about it, the Messenger Demigods reticence to vote yes makes a lot more sense when you consider that his vote turned from a protest vote to one that could kill him.

[martianmister]

Ascended Gods =/= Demi-Gods.

[factotum]

The majority voted yes. We don't even know if the Elven Gods voted at all.

It's not solid evidence, but I'm inclined to think that the decision of the Western Pantheon being delivered by an Elf suggests that their gods were involved somewhere along the line.

[Potatopeelerkin]

The majority voted yes. We don't even know if the Elven Gods voted at all. And seeing as the comic has had a literal Word of God saying 'The demigods might not make it and others have died before', I'm not sure what you're basing your 'probably okay' verdict on. Do you think the Western Pantheon are any more compassionate and altruistic than the reasons for voting yes we've seen from the Northern Pantheon?

Thinking about it, the Messenger Demigods reticence to vote yes makes a lot more sense when you consider that his vote turned from a protest vote to one that could kill him.

The Messenger God never cited "It could kill me" as a reason, and I imagine it would be a pretty major one. Rather, it was "I can't be the one to deliver this news-" it sounds like their concern was for their followers, not themselves. Which, granted, doesn't prove anything, but I don't think it's very good evidence in defence of your point.

Loki's defence of the world also never mentions that they'd be killing gods. I realise that he's a goofy trickster god, but you'd imagine that'd be a pretty good point in his favour. Could win him a couple of extra votes. And not a single "No" voter mentioned that as a reason either, and I would have thought that'd matter to at least one.

The ONLY thing we have to base the idea they'd all die off of is that one line by Thor (which didn't even mention anyone from this world besides TDO), and I feel like if it was going to kill off a whole bunch of gods that would have been mentioned by someone else. Otherwise we have to come up with an excuse for why basically every compassionate god forgot they'd be killing off family.

I think the Western gods might have a bit more concern because they'd be killing some of their own. Imagine, you spend all this time sponsoring new gods, welcome them into your family, and then announce you'd rather kill them than buy them a little extra time to prepare.

[Fyraltari]

It's not solid evidence, but I'm inclined to think that the decision of the Western Pantheon being delivered by an Elf suggests that their gods were involved somewhere along the line.

Wrecan thinks otherwise (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html).

Of course it is possible the Elven Gods have something similar to the Northern demigods going on, where they serve as a tiebraker. For what its worth Veldrina's goddess is "very minor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html)".

[Kish]

Wrecan thinks otherwise (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html).
He said that they vote as part of the Western Pantheon. You just linked it.

[Fyraltari]

He said that they vote as part of the Western Pantheon. You just linked it.

It doesn't say they always vote or that they have voted in this particular case. Hermod votes as part of the Northern Pantheon... once in a blue moon.

[Potatopeelerkin]

It doesn't say they always vote or that they have voted in this particular case. Hermod votes as part of the Northern Pantheon... once in a blue moon.

That's seems like a bit of a stretch to me. The obvious interpretation is usually the correct one, unless there's any evidence against it.

[Fyraltari]

That's seems like a bit of a stretch to me. The obvious interpretation is usually the correct one, unless there's any evidence against it.

Roy and Wrecan were discussing why the Elven Gods didn't get a vote for themselves as a fourth pantheon. The answer being because they vote as part of the Western Pantheon. Wether they have full voting rights or not was not relevant to that.

It's possible every Elven god is a demigod, it's possible none of them are, it's possible only some of them are. It's possible they all have full voting rights, it's possible none of them have it's possible only some of them have. We don't know the inner workings of the Western Pantheon's system, it may be more streamlined than the Northern or more byzantine.

[Kish]

There is no reason to take "the elven gods vote with the Western Pantheon" as indicating anything other than "the elven gods vote with the Western Pantheon." Nothing about demigods, nothing about them not voting this time, nothing except nothing.

[Fyraltari]

There is no reason to take "the elven gods vote with the Western Pantheon" as indicating anything other than "the elven gods vote with the Western Pantheon." Nothing about demigods, nothing about them not voting this time, nothing except nothing.
This cuts both ways.
There is no reason to take it as proof of the Elven Gods having voted in this particular case either.
Especially not when we know that some of the Northern Gods only get to vote when there's a tie.

[factotum]

I'm with Kish here. The sequence of statements in the linked strips is most easily interpreted as "The elven gods got to vote on this issue with the Western Pantheon", otherwise there would have been no point in bringing them up in the first place--or Wrecan could have said "But they don't usually get to vote".

[Riftwolf]

I'm with Kish here. The sequence of statements in the linked strips is most easily interpreted as "The elven gods got to vote on this issue with the Western Pantheon", otherwise there would have been no point in bringing them up in the first place--or Wrecan could have said "But they don't usually get to vote".

One reason to bring it up is to explain there's other Ascendants, but they're usually hosted by an existing Pantheon because of quiddities. If their voting with West Pantheon wasn't mentioned, there'd be forum threads asking why TDO was special when other Gods had been mentioned.
That said, I agree its possible the Elven Pantheon has an equal vote in Godsmoots. We don't know enough about the Workings of the West to make more than educated guesses though.

[Potatopeelerkin]

One reason to bring it up is to explain there's other Ascendants, but they're usually hosted by an existing Pantheon because of quiddities. If their voting with West Pantheon wasn't mentioned, there'd be forum threads asking why TDO was special when other Gods had been mentioned.
That said, I agree its possible the Elven Pantheon has an equal vote in Godsmoots. We don't know enough about the Workings of the West to make more than educated guesses though.

That's the narrative explanation, but I think factotum meant why Wrecan would bring it up. He's not aware he's explaining things to a horde of webcomic readers.

If Rich wanted to he could just word-of-god it on the forums, or leave it for us to work out. It's not like that hasn't happened before. Where they vote isn't important enough to have to be mentioned in-comic, especially if it'd just cause more confusion.

[hroþila]

The number of elvish high priests in the Western Godsmoot might suggest the ascended elven gods got to take part in the main vote, not in any subsequent tiebreaker. However, this is not proof, as the elves also worship the rest of the Western pantheon and thus any or all of them could theoretically be priests of non-elven deities. Personally I find that unlikely, though.

[Fyraltari]

That's the narrative explanation, but I think factotum meant why Wrecan would bring it up. He's not aware he's explaining things to a horde of webcomic readers.
Wrecan did not bring it up, Roy did, wondering why the Elven god did n't get a say in this. The answer was "because they count as part of the Western Pantheon".

If Rich wanted to he could just word-of-god it on the forums, or leave it for us to work out. It's not like that hasn't happened before. Where they vote isn't important enough to have to be mentioned in-comic, especially if it'd just cause more confusion.

Yes, this is just minutia.