Level 8 fire evoker build insights

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm building a pyromaniacal wizard and I have questions.

Human Focused specialist Energy affinity (fire) evoker 8

1:scribe scroll, bloodline of fire (+2CL firespells), calishate elementalist (fire)
3: pyro (song and silence)
5: searing spell
6: energy affinity


Pyro ( Song and Silence: A Guidebook to Bards and Rogues, p. 40) [General] You're good at lighting objects and opponents on fire.
Benefit If you set something or someone on fire by any means (alchemist's fire, for example), the flames do (an extra 1 point of damage per die, and the Reflex save DC to extinguish the flames increases by +5.

Normal Fire generally does 1d6 points of damage. A successful Refl ex save (DC 15) extinguishes it.

Does pyro add +1 damage per die from spells that cause burn?

Spells
1:burning hands, kelgores fire bolt
2: combust, firebird
3: fireball, lightning bolt, body blaze
4: wall of fire, ???

Level 4 spells seem to be a low in quality for the evoker. So this seems to be the level where you metamagic up lower level spells.

Am I missing some quality spells?

Burning hands is maxed at level 2 at 6d4, possibly +6 with pyro.

I am thinking of switching The Scribe scroll with the combat wizard feat of weapon finesse, and then using energy Affinity to change Scimitar of sand to be a fire spell. I already have get pretty close for combust or fire burst.

Anyway, it really seems like to maximize damage output from here, I can afford to lose a level or two of casting to gain access to bonus metamagic feats or an ability to further augment fire spells.

I do not want to touch snow casting or any of the cold spell optimization angles. It really seems like the only thing that fire does at spell levels higher than 3 is extend the damage cap on the spell. But we have an 11 D6 Fireball at level 7. If pyro works on spells that cause flammability, that damage goes up an average of 3 more D6.

The other question I have is fire stride exhalation paired with the body Blaze spell. Body Blaze leaves a wall of fire behind you as you move, and fire stride exhalation teleports your body through a fiery breath weapon. Do you leave that wall of fire from body Blaze behind you while you are moving as a fiery breath weapon?

Is force an energy descriptor? Can I energy affinity it into fire?

How do I optimize from levels 7-12.

[Khedrac]

I would say "no". There are spells that involve a save or be set of fire, and for these I would say that the +1 per die applies once they are burning, but spells such as burning hands and fireball do not set the targets on fire (yes, fireball can start fires, but that would be for burnable materials in the area of effect, it is not for creatures caught in it).

Edit: and for level 4 spells check out parboil from sandstorm, the fire damage isn't very high, but 2d4 int damage on a failed save can be awesome (say goodby to most of a wizard's high level spells).

Edit 2: scimitars are not subject to weapon finesse unless you are a dervish, so you are not using a feat for the rare times you have a round/level spell up, you are just wasting it.

[daremetoidareyo]

Good call on the scimitar, would weapon finesse( touch attack spells) work for scimitar of sand?

Good call on parboil as well.

[ericgrau]

Yeah I think pyro is going to be hard to pull off because not many good fire spells actually set creatures on fire. At low-mid level you can hand out flasks of oil to your party members as a sort of discount alchemist's fire. I'm not sure if that qualifies for the pyro feat but it's effective at low-mid level regardless against foes with DR and/or a high AC. And it helps your theme. Even if it does work with pyro feat allies will only use it early and part of the time, so it's still not a good idea to take the pyro feat this way. I think the pyro feat was meant for alchemist fire builds and so on.

Explosive cascade (SpC) is another good fire spell for level 4. Flaming sphere (temporarily) and scorching ray are nice too, though flaming sphere doesn't benefit much from CL boost.

I did well with an evoker who also picked up precise shot, empower spell and some necromancy spells. Fireball for area + empowered ray of enfeeblement for single target works well. Empower also combos well with damage of course and precise shot with ray damage. You also get [empowered] enervation later, and false life to not be too squishy. Later [empowered] false life, at least until you can get heart of earth (Complete Mage) and eventually Captain Planet (not a real name, just all 4 heart spells together). This way you have answers for both single target and mass. Sure there's single target damage and you should get it too, but ray of enfeeblement is way better even on a damage focused build. And you already have allies who are way better at general single target damage. Likewise magic missile is a nice backup for situations where you need reliability in your damage and it can be empowered.

At low level flaming sphere also combos well with web. As you get to higher level fireball and other area fire spells combo well with black tentacles.

While it's hard to set creatures on fire with spells, it's easier to set objects on fire. You could shrink item on barrels of oil for example and chuck them. If read the wrong way this is going to create LOLd6 damage and DMGs flying at your forehead. I think you should talk to the DM and rule it some way. Perhaps as 1d6 per round in a large area for a long time. You can't be more on fire than on fire, and more fuel merely takes longer to burn. Or perhaps more dmg from being immersed in fire: at most 20d6, and probably way less. If I were the DM I'd say 2d6 per round no save and it lasts for several minutes. Plus the creature is still on fire after he leaves until he stops, drops and rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#alchemistsFire). See also the DMG section on smoke effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#smokeEffects) (near heat dangers). Then this would combo well with mass energy resistance on the party. Also tell the party to hold their breath ahead of time. Don't worry, you can do that for a crazy number of rounds in 3.5. Just make sure you have a way out of the room after combat.

[daremetoidareyo]

Thanks. So the consensus seems to be that pyro only increases the catch on fire DC by 5 of the spells.

Is that worth keeping?

[Khedrac]

Thanks. So the consensus seems to be that pyro only increases the catch on fire DC by 5 of the spells.

Is that worth keeping?

From what you posted, it does not even do that - it increases the put out DC by 5 - something completely different, sorry.
I do think this a weak feat, but it is a flavourful one if you can find a set of spells that do ignite their targets.

[Ramza00]

Not a comprehensive list but these are good fire spells if you can do an early entry mystic theurge (archivist / wizard) and either spell research fire versions of these spells or do energy substitution fire versions of these spells.

1st
Wall of Smoke (original version has the fire subtype)
Orb of Fire Lesser
Burnign Hands
Fire Bolt

2nd
Seeking Ray
Elemental Dart (this is a massive damage spell, easily best 2nd level damage spell at higher caster levels, especially with a rod of empower lesser)
Frost Breath (Save or lose if you have a metamagic rod of searing spell)

3rd
Fireball
Ice Burst (less range, more squares covered, 30ft radius burst is much bigger than 20ft radius burst)
Ice Lance (save or lose with some damage)
Thunderous Roar, Druid version of a mixture of Great Thunderclap and Fireball, less damage than fireball but save or knocked prone (one of the 3 effects of Great Thunderclap)
Great Thunderclap (reflaovr it as light / stun grenade)

4th
Blast of Flame (weaker Cone of Cold but 60ft radius cone is a huge area for a 4th level spell, much better than fire ball with how many squares covered)
Orb of Fire
Wall of Fire
Fire Stride Ehxalation
Channeled Pyroburst
Lightning Lance (high damage at higher caster levels such as 15 or 16)
Venom Bolt (low damage but you want it for its save vs paralyzed)

5th
Boreal Wind (Druids get it at level 4, such a high amount of damage over time, plus battlefield control, over a HUGE area.)
Firebrand
Earth Reaver (if you do mystic theurge Thunderous Roar is for the most part better)
Channeled Sound Blast
Firebrand (think of this as chain lightning but slightly different and a lower level.)
Fiery Tentacles
Ball Lightning
Great Fireburst

6th
Fire Seeds
Lingering Flames
Scalding Mud
Chain Lightning

Note there are far more spells that are one of the 5 elemental classes (which you will research or energy sub to fire) but this is a good starting point for some of the best blasting spells.

But notice many of these spells are crappy blasting spells but they have awesome other effects. For example Fiery Spell Frost Breath is a save or lose that affects multiple enemies and also does some damage. Throw on Bracer of Entangling Blast (2,000 GP, MIC) and you weaken the already weak damage but who cares, and in return the monster is also entangled for 1d3 rounds in addition to the daze effect of the spell. And Bracer of Entangling Blast works 3 times a day for those 2,000 gp just like a lesser metamagic rod of searing spell would be 3 times a day.

[Zaq]

To be honest, there's a reason that Pyro is a feat that doesn't get used much. It's a fun concept, but it doesn't have much mechanical return on investment.

Now, if you can find a way to casually ignite folks as part of casting general-purpose fire spells (even those without an explicit "catch on fire" mechanic baked in) without spending too many actions on doing so, that could potentially be useful. Especially if you can find a way to make the fire do more than one die of damage. Or if you can otherwise juice it up to make it more obnoxious than just an average of 4.5 (1d6+1) resistable damage per round. I don't have such a technique at my fingertips, sadly.

You might make an argument that Pyro is useful if you're kiting someone and just using tactics to do (literally) slow-burn damage while staying hidden/running away/etc., but for one, that's not really better rewarded by setting someone on fire than just by doing normal snipery stuff, and for two, that's not exactly a party-friendly tactic. (It won't target partymembers, but it also likely won't involve them, so it's impractical at many tables.)

Somewhat amusingly, we do have that dreaded word any in Pyro's text, so traps set by someone with the feat will get the benefit as well. Might be useful for a Tucker's Kobolds kind of situation? Doesn't sound like that's what you're doing with this specific character, though.

Do you have (or can you get) a way of planting flammable material on an enemy's person without spending too many actions? If you can find a way to do that reliably, a regular ol' Fireball (or a similar spell with Fireball's "sets fire to combustibles" clause) can possibly cause enemies who wouldn't otherwise catch on fire to catch on fire. Can we maybe get a small army of Unseen Servants to run around tossing wreathes of dried and flammable leaves around the necks of your enemies, or is that just too silly?

Has anyone mentioned Incendiary Slime (CMag) yet?

Honestly, you're already a Wizard, and Pyro is flavorful enough that it's probably fine to leave it in the build if the rest of the party isn't going for broke optimizing. Just be aware that it's a flavor choice and not an optimal choice.

[daremetoidareyo]

Guys.

Guys!

I started a spreadsheet. I'll figure this out.

[Darrin]

Has anyone mentioned Incendiary Slime (CMag) yet?


This deserves a little more exploration. The +1 damage when you set "someone" on fire isn't worth the bother. That's a consequence of the designers writing the environmental rules from the standpoint of "what would be potentially lethal for a 1st-level commoner?" and not thinking particularly hard about how that would work with the rest of the game. But the Pyro text says "set something or someone on fire" (emphasis added). Based on my understanding of the text of the feat, I believe incendiary slime would do 4d6+4 damage, and that's a little more interesting. So I think we need to think about what sort of "something" can we set on fire.

The web spell is easy to set on fire, and would do 2d4+2 damage. I usually suggest Kaupaer's quickblast (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050112a) to light things on fire... I believe the free-action spells from 3.0 should be treated as immediate-action spells in 3.5.

Drifts of the Shalm (PHBII) can be ignited for 2d6+2 damage. Wall of thorns says you can ignite it with magical fire, but I don't think it actually mentions any damage. Sculpt Spell might be very good there. Hmm. Are there any other spells that create flammable materials that can be ignited?

Hmm. Spells that set things on fire... lava missile (Serpent Kingdoms) is auto-hit like magic missile, can hit multiple targets, and can set things on fire. Palin's Pyre (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) could be interesting... I keep thinking there may be some exploits hidden in that spell somewhere. I think you get more mileage out of this feat with lesser fireball (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20020227a).

[J-H]

Don't forget Fiery Burst to increase your caster level with fire spells by 1. I think there's another fire-boosting CL ability somewhere out there (maybe a race of fire)? You should be able to cast as a 10th or 11th level caster with fire spells by level 8 or 9. More damage, more spell pen!

Scorching Ray benefits from Precise Shot so that you can shoot into melee. 8d6 damage vs touch AC, no save, at level 6 or 7 is pretty good in a boss fight.

[daremetoidareyo]

Fiery burst is great at 9th, but spell slots should cover a few novas per day until then.

[ericgrau]

The web spell is easy to set on fire, and would do 2d4+2 damage. I usually suggest Kaupaer's quickblast (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050112a) to light things on fire... I believe the free-action spells from 3.0 should be treated as immediate-action spells in 3.5.
Swift action actually. Kaupaer's quickblast even says explicitly that it's like a quickened spell. Still nice though.

[daremetoidareyo]

Looking at energy substitution, what exactly is an energy descriptor? Obviously, fire,cold, acid, and electricity. Sonic? Force? Air, earth, fire, water?

It seems like fire does double duty if elemental descriptors aren't energy descriptors...

Thoughts?

[Ramza00]

Looking at energy substitution, what exactly is an energy descriptor? Obviously, fire,cold, acid, and electricity. Sonic? Force? Air, earth, fire, water?

It seems like fire does double duty if elemental descriptors aren't energy descriptors...

Thoughts?

So 3.5 and 3.0 did not always define its terms and thus it is the DM job to play it by ear from time to time. Energy Descriptor is never defined in the rules. This is the closest thing defined in the Rules Compendium. Let me quote verbatim from page 48.


Energy
Some effects use or create energy, dealing damage according to the type of energy used. Energy comes in five types: acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic. The types of energy help to determine whether certain creatures are more resistant or more vulnerable to the attack that uses the energy.

So it is obvious that acid, cold, electricity, fire and sonic should be allowed to be energy substituted for they have energy descriptors. But what are energy descriptors for we have other descriptors which are edge cases and can they be substituted or not? Is positive or negative energy like harm / cure light wounds? How about Force, air, earth subtype descriptors, and so on.

The rules are sometimes as clear as mud, but it is clear that frost breath should be able to be substituted into fire breath with energy substitution fire.

I am a big believer of the Pirates of the Caribbean idea of the code / rules.


Barbossa: First, your return to shore was not part of our negotiations nor our agreement so I must do nothing. And secondly, you must be a pirate for the pirate's code to apply and you're not. And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner .

[daremetoidareyo]

Here's the first three spell levels for Leveleight Fire Evoker

Key:
Red = No good
Blue = metamagicked lower level spell

Level 1



spell
caster level
range
damage
min
max
mean
other


kelgores fire bolt
4
medium
1d6, max5d6
4
24
14
Ref half


burning hands
5
15 cone
1d4, max 6d4
5
20
12.5
ref half, flammables ignite


orb of fire
3
ranged touch
1d8 per two CL, max 5d8
2
16
9
none




Level 3



spell
caster level
range
damage
min
max
average
other


scorch
6
30 line
1d8 per 2, max 5d8
3
24
13.5
ref half


fireburst
6
10 radius burst
1d8, max 5d8
5
40
22.5
ref half, flammables ignite


fiery burning hands
7
15 cone
1d4, max 6d4
12
30
21
ref half, flammables ignite


fiery kelgores
6
medium

10
35
22.5
ref half


combust
6
touch
1d8, max 10d8
6
48
27
flammables ignite


Saltray
4
ranged touch
1d6 per 2, max 5d6
3
18
10.5
slashing damage, fort save stunned


Lesser fireball
6
5 radius burst
1d4, max 10d4
6
24
15
ref half


molten strike
6
5 radius burst
2d6
2
12
7
flammables ignite




Level 5



Level
spell
caster level
range
damage
min
max
average
other


5
scorch
8
30 line
1d8 per 2, max 5d8
4
32
18
ref half



combust
8
touch
1d8, max 10d8
8
64
36
flammables ignite



fireball
9
20 radius spread
1d6, max 11d6
9
54
31.5
ref half, flammables ignite



Bodyblaze
8
wall
2d6+CL, max 20
10
20
15
wall



fire affinity lightning bolt
8
120 line
1d6, max 10d6
8
48
28
ref half, flammables ignite



empowered burning hands
9
15 cone
1.5 x 6d4
9
36
22.5
see above



empowered kelgores
8


7.5
45
26.25
see above



fiery scorch
8
30 line

8
36
22
see above



fiery combust
8
touch

16
72
44
see above

[ShurikVch]

Which sources are allowed?

And which schools were banned for the Focused Specialist?

[daremetoidareyo]

Which sources are allowed?

And which schools were banned for the Focused Specialist?

Any official first party source,

And I'm looking at banning illusion, necro and enchantment. But necro has some sweet [cold] spells with rider effects that can be energy substituted. In which case, we'll be killing, don't kill me for this, conjuration.

[Khedrac]

Here's the first three spell levels for Leveleight Fire Evoker
You colour lesser orb of fire as red = bad? So the damage isn't that great, but it's an SR=No spell which makes it really really useful
against golems and the like.

Similarly you colour fireburst as neutral - a spell that is a 10' burst centred on you - so you want it when you are surrounded (when it probably won't do enough damage to save you) - but it is dangerous to cast when near your allies. It has situational uses, but generaly it's a terrible spell.

Etc. I would probably disagree with a lot of these rankings.

[PunBlake]

For later in the game, maybe consider getting into Silver Pyromancer (Eb: 5N); it unfortunately requires worshiping the Silver Flame and a LG alignment. However, casting for [Fire] spells is set to your character level as a base, and Persistent Fire (Su) interacts well with Pyro. The best way to get in is using Sacred Exorcist to gain Turn Undead.

[daremetoidareyo]

You colour lesser orb of fire as red = bad? So the damage isn't that great, but it's an SR=No spell which makes it really really useful
against golems and the like.

Similarly you colour fireburst as neutral - a spell that is a 10' burst centred on you - so you want it when you are surrounded (when it probably won't do enough damage to save you) - but it is dangerous to cast when near your allies. It has situational uses, but generaly it's a terrible spell.

Etc. I would probably disagree with a lot of these rankings.

They ain't ranked, except red blows.

Uncolored = worth consideration from a raw damage POV

Blue= metamagicked lower level spells

With the high CL this guy is slinging, SR won't be the biggest deal.

[ericgrau]

You colour lesser orb of fire as red = bad? So the damage isn't that great, but it's an SR=No spell which makes it really really useful against golems and the like.

Similarly you colour fireburst as neutral - a spell that is a 10' burst centred on you - so you want it when you are surrounded (when it probably won't do enough damage to save you) - but it is dangerous to cast when near your allies. It has situational uses, but generaly it's a terrible spell.

Lowest CR core golem has 79 HP. So not that useful... it blows chunks. There are other constructs, sure, but it's hard to find much of anything low level with SR. Including low level constructs.

For fireburst it's easy enough to move 15' away from allies and still hit 1 or more foes. Easier than larger AoEs which are also possible... but it also has a smaller AoE and it requires you to move right next to dangerous enemies. So I'm not sure if it's that great either. If you have a good con, good defensive buffs like false life, and can get 2-3 foes in the area it might be ok.

Hmmm... why is empowered burning hands ranked above fireball? Sure it's 22.5 dmg instead of 21 dmg and is ahead there for the briefest instant, but the area and range is no good... Ok I see what you mean. Wth is up with those rankings?

[daremetoidareyo]

Lowest CR core golem has 79 HP. So not that useful... it blows chunks. There are other constructs, sure, but it's hard to find much of anything low level with SR. Including low level constructs.

For fireburst it's easy enough to move 15' away from allies and still hit 1 or more foes. Easier than larger AoEs which are also possible... but it also has a smaller AoE and it requires you to move right next to dangerous enemies. So I'm not sure if it's that great either. If you have a good con, good defensive buffs like false life, and can get 2-3 foes in the area it might be ok.

Hmmm... why is empowered burning hands ranked above fireball? Sure it's 22.5 dmg instead of 21 dmg and is ahead there for the briefest instant, but the area and range is no good... Ok I see what you mean. Wth is up with those rankings?

They ain't ranked

[ericgrau]

They ain't ranked

I misread your other post sorry. Mine strikethroughed.

[ShurikVch]

Some more feats:
Elemental Spellcasting [Fire] (Planar Handbook): +1 CL with [Fire] spells
Mastery of Ice and Fire (Player's Guide to Eberron): You can spontaneously apply the effect of the Enlarge Spell metamagic feat to any spell you cast that has the cold descriptor or the fire descriptor.

If Dragon magazine is OK, there are couple of feats:
Elemental Focus (#319): +1 to save DC vs. your spells of chosen element
Radiant Spell (#314): [metamagic] adds Will-save-or-be-blinded to [fire] spells

[Zaq]

Just found the spelltouched feat Controlled Immolation, which makes you personally not take any damage from catching on fire. The feat also says that when you’re on fire, people hitting you take fire damage. That could arguably be boosted by Pyro. Hard to get it above one die, but still, it seems like an interesting hook to build around, don’t you think? Your gear is explicitly not protected, but you should probably have fireproofed your spellbook anyway.