Would you take this deal? (HD as currency)

[PhoenixPhyre]

Imagine you're a level 2 character (of whatever class). An imp approaches you and offers the following deal.

"I'll be your partner in exchange for a piece of your soul. Don't worry, it'll grow back when I move on and either of us can sever the link at any time."

Mechanically, that means that the imp becomes a pseudo-familiar to the character, but retains its free will and can't hide in an extra-dimensional pocket. However, the character immediately spends one hit die (representing the piece of the soul claimed by the imp) and that hit die does not get restored until the familiar link is broken (by choice of one of the parties or the "death" of the familiar).

Would you take the deal? Would it depend on the class? Build?

Note: if you don't want an imp, choose any other fey, fiend, or elemental, or celestial of approximately the same power. The question is more about how valuable a hit die is.

Motivation: I'm trying to decide how to handle a party who helps an imp break free of an unwanted (and flawed) contract. This was one option for a reward. The imp in question (due to setting details) would actually be loyal to the contract and not outright evil, although he's a bit amoral and prone to taking the easy way out of things.

The party consists of
* A diviner wizard (who does not have a familiar just as yet)
* A celestial warlock (who will go blade as he's a reaper-type servant of a death god, although not particularly evil)
* A fighter (undetermined subclass)
* A war cleric
* A paladin (undetermined subclass).

[Demonslayer666]

How are you representing the loss of 1 HD? Are you rolling it, taking away that many HP + con bonus? Or taking away what they rolled for level 2? Or are you just taking away 1 HD you can spend to heal?


If it's the first, I would gamble if I rolled really well. The second, probably not. The third, most certainly.

[Unoriginal]

Does it includes the hit points the PCs already gained, or is it just a "for Rest purposes, you have minus one die".

[PhoenixPhyre]

How are you representing the loss of 1 HD? Are you rolling it, taking away that many HP + con bonus? Or taking away what they rolled for level 2? Or are you just taking away 1 HD you can spend to heal?


If it's the first, I would gamble if I rolled really well. The second, probably not. The third, most certainly.

Basically, the HD would count as "expended" (and not restored) until the deal ended. So the 3rd case.

If I may, where would be the breakpoint? I don't want to actually decrease the HP of the characters, just remove possible healing resources. So would "when you gain levels you don't get the new HD to heal with (but get the HP as normal)" be a deal-breaker? So a level 6 character with this would have 1 daily HD for healing?

I'd guess this depends on how much you tend to take short rests and use HD for healing. In theory, HD-based healing should account for most of the durability of a character in a day. If you never take short rests, then they're meaningless.

[Unoriginal]

If it's just an healing ressource then it might be worth it.

I'd prefer having the imp as a traveling companion without that link, however.

[Trampaige]

Stripping all future HD for healing seems like it's way out or line. Imp familiar offer some useful stuff in the vein of magic resistance and telepathy, but they're fragile and can easily die.

Perhaps cap the healing from HD at half the die? Roll 5 on a d6 and it's capped at 3, on all hd used for short rest healing?

The character will use more HD to heal on short rests and subsequently have less available the next day, a sort of growing fatigue.

But if you have 5 min adventuring days, it won't matter. You should consider long rest variations if your game has that anyway, since you have a warlock and constantly battling double deadly encounters to challenge the party is asking for problems.

[JackPhoenix]

A single permanently expended HD for a 3rd-level not-subclass feature with no other penalties? Hell yeah I would take the deal. Short rest healing is useful, but cleric, paladin, celestial warlock and fighter already have features which help with self-healing, and wizard shouldn't be taking too much damage anyway.

[PhoenixPhyre]

If it's just an healing ressource then it might be worth it.

I'd prefer having the imp as a traveling companion without that link, however.

Due to setting mechanics, the imp can't stay around without a source of energy from a soul. He's getting that from his current master, so switching allegiances requires some source of energy.


Stripping all future HD for healing seems like it's way out or line. Imp familiar offer some useful stuff in the vein of magic resistance and telepathy, but they're fragile and can easily die.

Perhaps cap the healing from HD at half the die? Roll 5 on a d6 and it's capped at 3, on all hd used for short rest healing?

The character will use more HD to heal on short rests and subsequently have less available the next day, a sort of growing fatigue.

But if you have 5 min adventuring days, it won't matter. You should consider long rest variations if your game has that anyway, since you have a warlock and constantly battling double deadly encounters to challenge the party is asking for problems.

We (so far) have done well with having short rests and avoiding a 5 minute adventuring day. We average about 3-4 hards a day, but since my dice like my players....

Stripping the HD wouldn't be permanent, merely until the bond ends (so if it dies, they come back normally). But yeah, all of them is a bit harsh. I like your "can't regain more than half from any HD spent" option, but I'll have to think more about it.

[Unoriginal]

Due to setting mechanics, the imp can't stay around without a source of energy from a soul. He's getting that from his current master, so switching allegiances requires some source of energy.

Well that's different, then.

Does the imp get one additional HD out of the bargain?




"can't regain more than half from any HD spent" option

That's a way much bigger penalty than being unable to use one dice, though.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Well that's different, then.

Does the imp get one additional HD out of the bargain?


Haven't decided. I'm more imagining it like it's his food--every day he takes that one HD worth of soul energy to keep his material shell intact and function. Without it he gets banished back home.




That's a way much bigger penalty than being unable to use one dice, though.

Right. I'm trying to dial the tradeoff in to the point where it becomes something other than a no-brainer. I want a real choice, not a "I'd be stupid not to" choice. His other offer as a reward would be information (about the people behind his current master).

[Pex]

That it's an imp, automatic no for roleplaying reasons. It's a deal with the devil selling your soul, an Evil act I will not do I don't care how 5E treats alignment.

For the mechanical aspect, maybe. Say I was a Devotion Paladin of Torm and the HD cost to keep a Lantern Archon on the Prime Material and linked to me as a familiar with Torm's blessing. The cost is significant but not too expensive.

Just need to get around roleplaying reservations. :smallsmile:

[saucerhead]

Interesting idea. Would the character be invested in the imp's preservation and not send it on suicidal missions? I have seen familiars treated more as tools than pets, but if the imp has true independence, can he just say "I'm not doing that"? Or possibly he might need another Hit Dice down the road, for leveling up?

[follacchioso]

This kind of pacts were more common in earlier versions of D&D. However they were usually more hardcore. "give away a finger, and I'll teach you a very powerful spell". "renounce a bit of your sanity (wisdom), in exchange for more power (a meta magic feat)". I believe that's the way warlocks originated.

I think that the benefits given by the deal are not clearly stated. The imp will stay around for the pg, but under which conditions? Will he give more information or spells? What's the actual advantage for the player? As long as it is not clear, it may not be appealing for the player, and ended up being forgotten as just another thing floating around.

[Unoriginal]

This kind of pacts were more common in earlier versions of D&D. However they were usually more hardcore. "give away a finger, and I'll teach you a very powerful spell". "renounce a bit of your sanity (wisdom), in exchange for more power (a meta magic feat)". I believe that's the way warlocks originated.

Charms and Boons are a good way to do it, in 5e.

[Beastrolami]

My 2 cents:

Losing 1 permaned HD for an imp familiar is a good deal mechanically, but could lead to complications when roleplaying, especially without the extra-dimensional space. If the players are aware of this, especially with a paladin, cleric and celestial warlock in the party, and (i'm assuming) other allies that may be averse to a pet demon, it makes the deal a much harder choice.

I wouldn't go any lower than 1 HD drained per day, the only other mechanic I can think of adding would be if the imp dies, you can spend an HD to revive it (similar to casting find familiar again). I would even be ok with making it harder for the demon to maintain it's form each time it dies, so it would cost 1 permanent HD to revive, so that the party isn't able to, or has to be more careful with any abuse of the mechanics.

[lunaticfringe]

Nah I dislike minions/followers/pets/hirelings I can't shove into a pocket dimension and pop out when I feel like it. Just a personal preference, I don't think you're offering a bad dael.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That it's an imp, automatic no for roleplaying reasons. It's a deal with the devil selling your soul, an Evil act I will not do I don't care how 5E treats alignment.

For the mechanical aspect, maybe. Say I was a Devotion Paladin of Torm and the HD cost to keep a Lantern Archon on the Prime Material and linked to me as a familiar with Torm's blessing. The cost is significant but not too expensive.

Just need to get around roleplaying reservations. :smallsmile:

This particular setting removes alignment entirely, including for extraplanar beings. Heck, most of the "angels" that serve particular gods are actually fiends, working for their daily bread. Demons are something else entirely--any creature that lives by consuming entire souls and/or occupies space in the Abyss is a demon, whether mortal, astral, or elemental in origin.

But yes, some particular characters may not like the idea of partnering with this particular devil, who's a bit amoral and blase about collateral damage. He doesn't mind working for his current master, just resents the whole coersion bit.


Interesting idea. Would the character be invested in the imp's preservation and not send it on suicidal missions? I have seen familiars treated more as tools than pets, but if the imp has true independence, can he just say "I'm not doing that"? Or possibly he might need another Hit Dice down the road, for leveling up?

The imp would be an NPC that's loyal to the party member he bonds to. The party member would get his telepathic bond as well as benefiting from the magic resistance, but the imp can (and will) say no to suicidal missions.


This kind of pacts were more common in earlier versions of D&D. However they were usually more hardcore. "give away a finger, and I'll teach you a very powerful spell". "renounce a bit of your sanity (wisdom), in exchange for more power (a meta magic feat)". I believe that's the way warlocks originated.

I think that the benefits given by the deal are not clearly stated. The imp will stay around for the pg, but under which conditions? Will he give more information or spells? What's the actual advantage for the player? As long as it is not clear, it may not be appealing for the player, and ended up being forgotten as just another thing floating around.

This particular imp would give a scout (which the party lacks) as well as a source of magic resistance (advantage on saves vs spells) for the bonded person. Other than that, depending on how they treat him he may give more. If they feed him energy (in ways I haven't quite figured out yet), they could evolve him like a pokemon. But that's really up to them. If they abuse him or try to get him to suicide, he'll bail. Other than that, he'll stay because it's much more interesting here (and potentially lucrative) than going back and working for the Families* back home.

* My setting's devils are organized like Mafia families. Each one has a "business" specialty that they tend to--some are in the wanton murder business, others are in different parts of the information business, etc. But the little guys like imps have to pay protection "money" (soul energy) to the bigger guys. Thus the big guys rarely take contracts on the mortal plane--they get a steady stream of energy from their subordinates.

[Unoriginal]

This deal makes me of an Hand of Fate encounter. It has a nice feel to it from a RP standpoint.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This deal makes me of an Hand of Fate encounter. It has a nice feel to it from a RP standpoint.

I'm not sure what Hand of Fate is, but thanks!

They've already captured the original contract that binds them, and they know that the devil isn't working voluntarily. I haven't figured out exactly what the loophole is, but I figure it gives them a chance to subvert an enemy and gain a benefit.

[Kane0]

Your prof bonus in hit dice (essentially 1/4 your level) seems fair. You're getting the benefits of a warlock boon or feat, it should be worth more than a single die of healing but not cripple you.

[Demonslayer666]

To me, 1 HD cost is a no brainer. 1/2 HD cost is still leaning towards yes. I rarely find myself out of HD, but that could just be our games. :smallsmile:

[PhoenixPhyre]

Your prof bonus in hit dice (essentially 1/4 your level) seems fair. You're getting the benefits of a warlock boon or feat, it should be worth more than a single die of healing but not cripple you.

It's not exactly the same as a Chain boon--you can't re-summon it. Nor can you send it away.

At level 2, your suggestion would leave them with 0 HD. That seems a bit harsh up front.

[jiriku]

An imp with free will and a piece of your soul is just a bad idea. There are too many ways that can go wrong. I'd hold out for a standard familiar contract.

For a bound imp, a cost of 1 HD of healing would be an easy yes. A reduction of 1 HD in my maximum hp would be a probable no unless I was playing a scout or spy or some other character who could really benefit from an invisible flying companion. Loss of more than 1 HD of healing would be a maybe, especially if my HD recovery was still based on my normal, unmodified maximum.

[Laserlight]

OP explicitly said that if you don't trust an imp, you can have a fey, elemental, celestial.

For 1HD of healing, my gnome wizard (who seldom gets attacked) would say definitely yes. My tempest cleric (melee oriented, and the only one who can Revivify) would reluctantly say no. Barbarian, definitely no.

Incidentally, if I multiclass with two different HD, does the familiar get the larger, smaller, or one of whatever you had when you made the choice?

[BobZan]

Definitely! All day, with any of my characters.

[Amano666]

If I were the imp proposing this deal I would do it as 1 HD or 20% of your total HD which ever is greater. So at level 10 it would be 2 HD, lvl 15 = 3HD, and finally at level 20 = 4HD. However, if the party was interested I might allow them to split the HD cost and share the benefit of the familiar.

[Sigreid]

Defined as a piece of my soul, no. Same mechanic defined as "I'll siphon a small bit of your daily life energy to sustain this form", maybe. Never let a devil touch your soul.

Edit you can even have a roleplay ribbon with the legendary 3rd nipple used by the imp to drink a small amount of the character's blood every day.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Defined as a piece of my soul, no. Same mechanic defined as "I'll siphon a small bit of your daily life energy to sustain this form", maybe. Never let a devil touch your soul.

Edit you can even have a roleplay ribbon with the legendary 3rd nipple used by the imp to drink a small amount of the character's blood every day.

For my setting, "daily life energy" === soul. There's really no afterlife (other than a limited-time shadow existence), and "souls" are made of 3 parts:

1. Body. The physical stuff, made of compressed "soul energy" that has been attuned to various influences.
2. Nimbus/Aura. The uncompressed soul energy that acts as an interface, both with magic and with the body.
3. Spark. The "immortal"(?) part, the part that makes you you. This part can generate and manipulate soul energy.

Astral creatures (like devils and celestials), as well as incorporeal creatures generally, are auras and sparks without a fixed body. To exist in this mortal world they have to form (or their summoner has to form) a body for them, otherwise the nimbus dissipates as the spark can't hold on to it very well.

Hit points represent quickly-available reserves of energy that can be mobilized by a spark to heal damage. Hit dice are deeper reserves, less quickly replaceable. So when a devil takes a tithe of your soul, he's creating a shunt that limits your deep reserves. He's borrowing your spare gas tank and siphoning gas off your tank when you go to fill up. Commoners don't have much to give, so they can't maintain anything big. Adventurers or other beefy (higher-powered) souls have enough that they can give some up and still function.

[Syzygy027]

I like the idea of this deal, and I would probably accept it as a character as I usually play neutral characters, but any good character would be wary of it.

Additionally it opens the door to powering up the contracted creature.
I suggest using more HD to power up the creature, or use HD to give it xp, and have it eventually transform.
You could even have it be evil and turn against the party if you want. I may use this in my games honestly.

[MagneticKitty]

Maybe the deal willingly charms the person so they reguard the imp as a close friend and take more weight to what he says. They also dont willingly sacrifice him. Gives them +2 stat (any but con, not over max) but takes -2 con. I think that'd be an interesting bargain. Maybe +2 in two stats to be more enticing.

Basically he's like a cursed item. Just don't lay out the full bargain. Be like:

I'll bless you with my magic. Make you stronger or smarter or more charming. You name it! in exchange for a little of your life force and your promise to treat me as a friend.

And it counts as a contract with a fiend so it's binding.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I like the idea of this deal, and I would probably accept it as a character as I usually play neutral characters, but any good character would be wary of it.

Additionally it opens the door to powering up the contracted creature.
I suggest using more HD to power up the creature, or use HD to give it xp, and have it eventually transform.
You could even have it be evil and turn against the party if you want. I may use this in my games honestly.

That's a possibility (powering up the creature). Would depend on the group.

A different group I'm DM'ing for has a pet Giant Lizard that they befriended. He's since gained a virtual Barbarian level (basically +HP and a watered-down rage-like ability). In that time, the party's gained 3 or so levels. Private Eye Guana (teenagers :smallbiggrin:) is their party mascot and actually pretty effective. They give him general commands and do the rolling, while I direct the details since he's still really a wild animal.

Another group had a pet floating crystal eyeball-robot named Crit Bot since it's only real feature was that it crit on a 19 or 20 with it's 1d4 force beam attack. That one later evolved into a full-scale NPC when they got her a (warforged-esque) body as an adventure reward.

[NaughtyTiger]

I checked with my table. Everyone of them said yes. the martials offerred additional dice.

Cheaper than the homunculus spell.

[Joe the Rat]

Your prof bonus in hit dice (essentially 1/4 your level) seems fair. You're getting the benefits of a warlock boon or feat, it should be worth more than a single die of healing but not cripple you.


If I were the imp proposing this deal I would do it as 1 HD or 20% of your total HD which ever is greater. So at level 10 it would be 2 HD, lvl 15 = 3HD, and finally at level 20 = 4HD. However, if the party was interested I might allow them to split the HD cost and share the benefit of the familiar.

I'm with the progressive cost idea - a single HD forever is too small a fee (but now gives me ideas for binder/summoner homebrew mechanics). Having the higher cost translate into benefits for the bound buddy might not be bad - extra hit die, proficiency bonus to AC, something like that.

Moving the base cost up might be needed - I can't picture 1HD (which is recovered when the contract breaks) ever not being a good deal to keep a little f(r)iend around.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I checked with my table. Everyone of them said yes. the martials offerred additional dice.

Cheaper than the homunculus spell.

Sounds like it's too cheap then.


I'm with the progressive cost idea - a single HD forever is too small a fee (but now gives me ideas for binder/summoner homebrew mechanics). Having the higher cost translate into benefits for the bound buddy might not be bad - extra hit die, proficiency bonus to AC, something like that.

Moving the base cost up might be needed - I can't picture 1HD (which is recovered when the contract breaks) ever not being a good deal to keep a little f(r)iend around.

So what do you prefer?

a) 1/3 of HD, round up (so 1-7, increasing at 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19)
b) HD = proficiency bonus? (so 2-6, increasing at 4, 9, 13, and 17)

As a note, this particular campaign will likely not get beyond level 6 or so (since it's limited to 1 hr/week during the school year). But if you were to generalize to a more long-lasting campaign or as a new mechanism...

[NaughtyTiger]

Sounds like it's too cheap then.So what do you prefer?

a) 1/3 of HD, round up (so 1-7, increasing at 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19)
b) HD = proficiency bonus? (so 2-6, increasing at 4, 9, 13, and 17)

As a note, this particular campaign will likely not get beyond level 6 or so (since it's limited to 1 hr/week during the school year). But if you were to generalize to a more long-lasting campaign or as a new mechanism...

1/3 to 1/2. magical healing is cheap...

1 hr/week!? it takes me an hour just to find my dice...

[Joe the Rat]

So what do you prefer?

a) 1/3 of HD, round up (so 1-7, increasing at 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19)
b) HD = proficiency bonus? (so 2-6, increasing at 4, 9, 13, and 17)

As a note, this particular campaign will likely not get beyond level 6 or so (since it's limited to 1 hr/week during the school year). But if you were to generalize to a more long-lasting campaign or as a new mechanism...

I'm inclined towards proficiency, though that means the price is prohibitive for 1st-2nd level.

[ATHATH]

"give away a finger, and I'll teach you a very powerful spell"
Is this a Planescape: Torment reference?

I'd take this deal in a heartbeat. Who needs Hit Dice when you have healing spells (that was a rhetorical question; don't answer that)?

[PhoenixPhyre]

1/3 to 1/2. magical healing is cheap...

1 hr/week!? it takes me an hour just to find my dice...

It's an after-school high-school club I run (I'm a teacher). I've gotten pretty good at it (been doing it for 4 years no), but it certainly imposes constraints on design.

One year I did it at lunch, so more like 25-30 minutes max. And that was 4e...:smalleek:

[ThePolarBear]

I skimmed over and did not see it... atre you following the variant familiar "rules" for effects too? Such as Magic Resistance, telepathy...?
If so, mechanically "YES!!!!!" all the way.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I skimmed over and did not see it... atre you following the variant familiar "rules" for effects too? Such as Magic Resistance, telepathy...?
If so, mechanically "YES!!!!!" all the way.

The idea was to do so. But yeah, that's pretty strong. But you don't get to actually control the familiar, and it will refuse any suicidal request.

[ThePolarBear]

The idea was to do so. But yeah, that's pretty strong. But you don't get to actually control the familiar, and it will refuse any suicidal request.

It's an HD for Advantage on every saving throw against anything magical. Even if the Imp were to stay tucked in an inn all day, it would still be a YES!!!!!

[PhoenixPhyre]

It's an HD for Advantage on every saving throw against anything magical. Even if the Imp were to stay tucked in an inn all day, it would still be a YES!!!!!

FYI, the magic resistance thing only works within 10 feet of the imp. So the imp has to be there.

[ThePolarBear]

FYI, the magic resistance thing only works within 10 feet of the imp. So the imp has to be there.

True, forgot about that.

[PhoenixPhyre]

True, forgot about that.

I had to look it up myself :smallsmile: