Help with an Orc axe thrower

[Scottie81]

So, I've been invited to a new campaign of 3.5 and I told the DM I typically prefer martial types. He told me "that's great" because the other four are a druid, cleric, sorcerer, and rogue. I'll be the defacto tank. That said, I've played a number of two-handed melee and sword-and-board characters before and I've really grown to appreciate the need for a ranged attack. With that in mind, I want to be a big, hulking axe thrower. Since I'm a big fan of orcs, I asked him if he's ok with any homebrew buffs to half-orc, otherwise, I'd probably just be human. He said I might just want to look into a full orc in that case. As the conversation continued, it became clear that he is of the mindset that casters have it so easy that he's fine with martial classes pulling from any splat book to gain an edge.

The plan is to do a few introductory missions before the DM runs a 6-10 module. After that, we'll see if we want to keep going. It's an Eberron campaign, but again , the gloves are off when it comes to martial classes. I'm looking for any tweaks I can use to optimize my character.

Here's what I'm thinking (28 point buy)

Barbarian 1 / Fighter 4 / Master Thrower 5

Str: 16(+4)= 20
Dex: 15 = 15
Con: 12 = 12
Int: 10(-2) = 8
Wis: 12(-2) = 10
Cha: 8(-2) = 6

Slight of Hand: 4 (pre-req)
Listen: 4
Spot: 9
Concentration: 8

Feats:
Level 1 Two Weapon Fighting
Level 2 (Fighter 1 Bonus Feat) Weapon Focus Hand Axe (pre-req)
Level 3 Point Blank Shot (pre-req)
Level 3 (Fighter 2 Bonus Feat) Brutal Throw
Level 5 (Fighter 4 Bonus Feat) Precise Shot (pre-req)
Level 6 Far Shot
Level 6 (Master Thrower 1) Quick Draw
Level 9 Weapon Specialization Hand Axe
Level 9 (Master Thrower 4) Snatch Arrows
Level 10 (Master Thrower 5) Improved Critical Hand Axe

Class Abilities:
Rage 1/day (Barbarian 1)
Fast Movement (Barbarian 1)
Evasion (Master Thrower 2)

Thrown Weapon Tricks:
Double Toss (Throw two weapons as a standard action)
Defensive Toss (Concentration check: Prevent AoO when throwing while threatened)
Deadeye Toss Hand Axe (Increases the crit multiplier from 3x to 4x)

If we keep going past level 10, I was thinking weaving in levels of Barbarian and Fighter and picking up either Power Attack and Power Throw or Improved Buckler Defense and Two Weapon Rend.

For equipment, I'm looking at the following:
Sundark Goggles (Races of the Dragon)
Gloves of Taarnahm the Vigilant (PGtF...providing the DM allows a Forgotten Realms item)
Mithral Breastplate (DMG)
Belt of Strength (DMG)
Hand Axe +1 with either Collision (MIC) or Exit Wound (CW)

Questions:

1) Can I use Hand Axes for Master Thrower? Master Thrower requires Weapon Focus with a thrown weapon so I was originally planning on going with Throwing Axes, but then the entry for Deadeye Toss makes a specific example of increasing a Hand Axe from 3x to 4x. Does a Hand Axe count as a thrown weapon just because I can throw it (albeit at -4 until I get the gloves)?
2) Does Two Weapon Rend work with Double Toss?
3) If so, would the strength-based damage of Two Weapon Rend be affected by my crit multiplier? I know bonus damage dice (like Flaming) aren't increased by crits, but it seems like static damage usually is multiplied.
4) Can Exit Wound be put on a thrown weapon? I'm not sure if a thrown weapon counts as a ranged weapon, but I love the idea of my axes ripping through enemies.
5) Does the +5 damage for Collision get multiplied by crits? Same reasoning as the strength-based damage of Two Weapon Rend. With a 19-20 4x crit, I think I should really be looking to maximize that damage.

And, most importantly:
6) Are there any changes to consider that might make him a bit more effective?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Zaq]

The 3.5 rules are sometimes a wee bit less than crystal clear when it comes to how thrown weapons are handled. In general, my instinct is that weapons that can be thrown in the absence of any special abilities can be treated as ranged weapons for the purposes of enhancements and so on, but simply having a feat or item or class feature that lets you throw a weapon that isn't normally throwable doesn't make it a thrown weapon before you actually throw it. (But then, if you actually are throwing a weapon by whatever means, feats and other game elements that trigger off of throwing weapons should apply. I hope the difference makes sense.) That said, the RAW is ambiguous, so the final ruling is pretty much up to the fellow behind the screen.

If you have access to Tome of Battle, Bloodstorm Blade is usually the gold standard when it comes to thrown weapon stuff, but admittedly, it makes thrown weapons even weirder than they already are and has a class feature whose primary purpose is to heavily blur the line between a melee attack and a thrown/ranged attack, so that might not be exactly what you want.

There's no reason that Two-Weapon Rend shouldn't work with Doubletoss. That should be fine.

I think you're generally right about static damage versus rolled damage on crits.

[Saintheart]

On a couple of the questions:


Questions:

1) Can I use Hand Axes for Master Thrower? Master Thrower requires Weapon Focus with a thrown weapon so I was originally planning on going with Throwing Axes, but then the entry for Deadeye Toss makes a specific example of increasing a Hand Axe from 3x to 4x. Does a Hand Axe count as a thrown weapon just because I can throw it (albeit at -4 until I get the gloves)?

Note that even if it does count as a thrown weapon, per the SRD:


It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.


So your x3 crit bonus for the hand axe is locked out, as is any improved critical threat range. I'd say Master Thrower isn't going to work like this because WF implies a ranged thrown weapon, i.e. something that's designed and balanced to be a thrown weapon. For example, the throwing axe.

I'd get around this by seeing if your DM would allow you to use the 3.0 feat Throw Anything as allowing you to qualify for Master Thrower. (Or go with Bloodstorm Blade's identical class feature.)


5) Does the +5 damage for Collision get multiplied by crits? Same reasoning as the strength-based damage of Two Weapon Rend. With a 19-20 4x crit, I think I should really be looking to maximize that damage.

Collision certainly does, that's why a lot of critfishers like it. Because it's a fixed value, unlike sneak attack, it gets multiplied on a critical hit.


And, most importantly:
6) Are there any changes to consider that might make him a bit more effective?

Really I'd strongly recommend to rework it with Bloodstorm Blade in mind. It gets around most of the RAW issues mentioned and adds lots of good toys, and it doesn't take levels and levels in a martial adept class to qualify: you can get away with a single level dip in Warblade, or blow 2 fighter feats on an Iron Heart strike and stance.

[tyckspoon]

On a couple of the questions:



Note that even if it does count as a thrown weapon, per the SRD:



So your x3 crit bonus for the hand axe is locked out, as is any improved critical threat range. I'd say Master Thrower isn't going to work like this because WF implies a ranged thrown weapon, i.e. something that's designed and balanced to be a thrown weapon. For example, the throwing axe.

I'd get around this by seeing if your DM would allow you to use the 3.0 feat Throw Anything as allowing you to qualify for Master Thrower. (Or go with Bloodstorm Blade's identical class feature.)


A lot of the Complete Warrior prestige classes are kind of sloppy; in this case, I'm pretty sure the example writer just straight forgot that a hand axe and a throwing axe aren't the same weapon. Without a listed Range increment the handaxe is not a throwing compatible weapon, and will need more feat/class feature/magic enhancement support to make it work as such.

[Scottie81]

Thanks for all the answers, guys! The Bloodstorm Blade certainly seems like an interesting option, but it kind of takes my character in a whole different direction. I've kind of outlined the broad strokes of my character to the DM and I don't want to completely re-write my character at this point.



So your x3 crit bonus for the hand axe is locked out, as is any improved critical threat range. I'd say Master Thrower isn't going to work like this because WF implies a ranged thrown weapon, i.e. something that's designed and balanced to be a thrown weapon. For example, the throwing axe.

I'd get around this by seeing if your DM would allow you to use the 3.0 feat Throw Anything as allowing you to qualify for Master Thrower. (Or go with Bloodstorm Blade's identical class feature.)


My DM ruled that, since any weapon can be thrown and one of entries in the Master Thrower specifically mentions use of a hand axe, I can fulfill the pre-req for Master Thrower by taking Weapon Focus Hand Axe without any special ability, weapon property or feat giving it a range increment.

As for getting around the crit bonus lockout you mentioned, the Gloves of Taarnhamn the Vigilant give any weapon I throw the Returning and Throwing property. The Throwing property gives the hand axe a range increment so it would not be subject to the lockout. The DM is on board with that. If, for some reason, I'm not wearing the gloves, I would take the normal -4 on any thrown attack rolls and my Improved Crit and Deadeye Toss would be locked out.

Also, I'm pretty sure Throw Anything is a 3.5 feat. It's from Complete Warrior originally.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I always liked the idea of an Orc throwing an Orc Double Axe, with it spinning through the air and both ends tearing through the enemy.

I did it early in 3E w/ Throwing and Returning enhancements on both ends (or the DM let me get away w/ Returning on just one end cause they're attached...I don't recall). Since then, Bloodstorm Blade came out and let you do it w/o any enhancements on the weapon. It also means not needing a feat for Brutal Throw.

Also, two cheap and useful items for any throwing build from MIC: Gauntlets of Extended Range and Goggles of Foe-finding.

Master Thrower is good too, but I think anyone going all 5 levels should be getting the trick to make touch attacks, it's just too good. Yeah, you don't get Str to damage, but sometimes that's worth it to hit touch AC, plus by RAW you can still apply Power Attack anyway (Power Throw feat or just being a Bloodstorm Blade).

[ShurikVch]

Since you're going all Str-based - how about to ditch the Master Thrower, and instead take the Hulking Hurler?
Ranged Power Attack, Meteor Strike (for double damage), or - if you got a Huge axe - Area Attack