Does negative hit die cause ability score loss?

[sorcererlover]

So we have a 24hd creature of whatever. If it's reduced to 12hd because of energy drain or because it's a simulacrum, does it lose 3 ability score points somewhere? Because you gain 1 ability score for each 4 hit die or levels, but we're talking about a creature whose lowest hd is 24hd. An advanced creature or a creature with class levels is obvious but what about a creature whose lowest hd possible is 24?

[InvisibleBison]

Energy drain can only remove class levels, not racial hit dice.

[Crake]

Energy drain can only remove class levels, not racial hit dice.

Where'd you read this? Because the negative level entry says that you lose 1 level, not one class level. Racial HD directly translate into levels from what I recall.

You have to read it this way, because it uses the same language when it comes to when a creature dies from negative levels "A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain.". If racial HD are not levels, then any creature with racial HD but no class levels is instantly slain from just a single negative level.

[InvisibleBison]

Where'd you read this? Because the negative level entry says that you lose 1 level, not one class level. Racial HD directly translate into levels from what I recall.

You have to read it this way, because it uses the same language when it comes to when a creature dies from negative levels "A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain.". If racial HD are not levels, then any creature with racial HD but no class levels is instantly slain from just a single negative level.

A creature’s Hit Dice total is also treated as its level for determining how spells affect the creature, its rate of natural healing, and its maximum ranks in a skill. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels)

Outside of the three things mentioned in that quote (and ECL, which is a separate, self-defined thing), I don't think the rules support equating Hit Dice and levels. The fact that this makes even a single negative level deadly for creatures with no class levels is weird and probably dysfunctional, but that's not exactly an uncommon feature of RAW.

[Remuko]

A creature’s Hit Dice total is also treated as its level for determining how spells affect the creature, its rate of natural healing, and its maximum ranks in a skill. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels)

Outside of the three things mentioned in that quote (and ECL, which is a separate, self-defined thing), I don't think the rules support equating Hit Dice and levels. The fact that this makes even a single negative level deadly for creatures with no class levels is weird and probably dysfunctional, but that's not exactly an uncommon feature of RAW.

I dont think this agrees with what you are saying at all: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm

[Khedrac]

So, to go back to the original question:

So we have a 24hd creature of whatever. If it's reduced to 12hd because of energy drain or because it's a simulacrum, does it lose 3 ability score points somewhere? Because you gain 1 ability score for each 4 hit die or levels, but we're talking about a creature whose lowest hd is 24hd. An advanced creature or a creature with class levels is obvious but what about a creature whose lowest hd possible is 24?
Negative Levels have a specific effect:

Energy Drain And Negative Levels
Some horrible creatures, especially undead monsters, possess a fearsome supernatural ability to drain levels from those they strike in combat. The creature making an energy drain attack draws a portion of its victim’s life force from her. Most energy drain attacks require a successful melee attack roll—mere physical contact is not enough. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature’s description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the given amount. A creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) for each negative level it bestows (though not if the negative level is caused by a spell or similar effect). These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour.

A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained:


-1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
-1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
-5 hit points.
-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.


Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.

A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.
So, if the creature (simulacrum) is currently under the effect of negative levels then suffer the effects listed above (the bulleted list) and nothing else. (Note, a low constitution wizard could be killed by the hit point loss from negative levels before they die of the negative levels themselves.) It does not lose the characteristic points, feats or skills gained from leveling.

Once the negative levels become 'permanent', then the creature's abilities are re-calculated back to the lower level (hit dice) it now possesses - so it does lose characteristic points, skills, feats etc. because it's level/hit dice have been reset.

One Optimization technique is to take a creature with nice abilities and a low LA but lots of hit dice (that add very little) and use permanent level drain to remove all but one hit dice, then progress in the desired class.

[sorcererlover]

So, to go back to the original question:

Negative Levels have a specific effect:

So, if the creature (simulacrum) is currently under the effect of negative levels then suffer the effects listed above (the bulleted list) and nothing else. (Note, a low constitution wizard could be killed by the hit point loss from negative levels before they die of the negative levels themselves.) It does not lose the characteristic points, feats or skills gained from leveling.

Once the negative levels become 'permanent', then the creature's abilities are re-calculated back to the lower level (hit dice) it now possesses - so it does lose characteristic points, skills, feats etc. because it's level/hit dice have been reset.

One Optimization technique is to take a creature with nice abilities and a low LA but lots of hit dice (that add very little) and use permanent level drain to remove all but one hit dice, then progress in the desired class.

Ok so if you create a Simulacrum of a 24 hd creature, it will be a 12hd creature with 3 less ability points somewhere along with other stuff affected by hit die similarly reduced.

Ok.

[Crake]

Ok so if you create a Simulacrum of a 24 hd creature, it will be a 12hd creature with 3 less ability points somewhere along with other stuff affected by hit die similarly reduced.

Ok.

Well, simulacrums aren't downleveled by means of negative levels, so that's not really correct.

[sorcererlover]

Well, simulacrums aren't downleveled by means of negative levels, so that's not really correct.

Oh? But ability score, feats, and such are tied to their level right? So half level means half of those. It's in the spell description that it says it loses feats and skill ranks and such. Wouldn't the ultimate result be identical to a creature who lost half of their levels?

[Crake]

Oh? But ability score, feats, and such are tied to their level right? So half level means half of those. It's in the spell description that it says it loses feats and skill ranks and such. Wouldn't the ultimate result be identical to a creature who lost half of their levels?

It only mentions skills, feats, hit points and special abilities of creatures of that HD.

[RoboEmperor]

It only mentions skills, feats, hit points and special abilities of creatures of that HD.

Does this mean Simulacra have the BAB of the creature's full hd? Because BAB and saves and such haven't been mentioned in Simulacrum.

I think I'm gonna have to agree with sorcererlover here but I will say you probably shouldn't mess with their ability scores. A half hd creature even by the result of energy drain wouldn't lose ability scores so...

[Crake]

A half hd creature even by the result of energy drain wouldn't lose ability scores so...

Well, yes, they do. If you're level 8 and you lose a level due to energy drain, you lose the ability point you got at levle 8. It even goes as far to say that if you can't remember which ability score you put your point into, that you just remove 1 point from your highest ability score.

[RoboEmperor]

Well, yes, they do. If you're level 8 and you lose a level due to energy drain, you lose the ability point you got at levle 8. It even goes as far to say that if you can't remember which ability score you put your point into, that you just remove 1 point from your highest ability score.

Huh, you're right, it does say that. Wow the rules are organized in such a terrible fashion I didn't know Level Loss had a separate entry. I'm guessing sorcerer lover didn't know either and you just answered her question. Nice job!

[sorcererlover]

Well, yes, they do. If you're level 8 and you lose a level due to energy drain, you lose the ability point you got at levle 8. It even goes as far to say that if you can't remember which ability score you put your point into, that you just remove 1 point from your highest ability score.

This was the information I was looking for. Thanks.