Hmmm... Where's Miko?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Yeah, I know I'm sticking a HUGE piece of flame-bait out here, but it's legitimate question.

Miko's not in line, and according to Eugene, the Southerners are on the opposite side of the mountain than he and Roy.

Is she in a different part of the line? She should have to deal with some sort of in-processing, even if she is to be cast into the deepest pits.

Meh, probably next strip.

[Vargtass]

Out of the hundreds or thousand dead Southerners, not all are shown in today's panel. Does not mean Miko is there, or that she is not.

[ilikebasketball]

Disabled persons line, just out of view
(I mean, really, she should arrive in a wheelchair, right?)

(that's a JOKE, people, not a flame)

[Spiryt]

Also with Miko being kinda "serious" character, I guess she didn't fit into joke about red-tapeyed afterlife.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Few of the Paladins are visable so you can't expect them all to be in the shot.

[Querzis]

Maybe we wont be able to see her in such a big line but if you ever hear someone screaming about being the chosen one and wanting to speak with the 12 gods immediatly for further instructions about her destiny then shes probably around.

But more seriously shes in another line going to another plane so its not likely.

[Alfryd]

I have a nasty suspicion she may not be in the appropriate line at all. Oh well.
At least things'd be less awkward than if she had to queue up behind half the folks she'd semi-accidentally obliterated.

[Zerkai]

It would be funny a bit if Roy wanted to see the Sapphire Gaurd while he waiting to be revived, and ran into Miko.

[Spiryt]

Well, maybe she is now wondering on some empty, misty fields of despair.

"Oh, twelve Gods, I get it all wrong, so wrong"

That will be very mythological, tragic and stuff.

[theinsulabot]

Well, maybe she is now wondering on some empty, misty fields of despair.

"This is all roy and that halflings fault!"

That will be very mythological, tragic and stuff.


FTFY :smallamused:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Well, maybe she is now wondering on some empty, misty fields of despair.

"Oh, twleve Gods, I get it all wrong, so wrong"

That will be very mythological, tragic and stuff.

And it also depends on which of the Twelve Gods choose to speak to her.

SoD Spoilers:
Rat and Tiamat and someone else spoke to The Dark One when he ascended to godhood. Tiamat in D&D terms is Evil, and there is some debate on Rat. (Rat is Lawful Evil/Rat is Neutral)

Generic Spoiler/Speculation

If Rat were to appear to Miko, what will she do? He is one of the Twelve Gods! Will Rouge et Noir become her new look?

[chibibar]

nah. I'm going with the idea that Miko is probably demanding to talk with the management to get an appointment with the 12 gods to see about her getting back to finish her destiny or something.

[Edea]

I imagine her as being changed into an Inevitable, standing in the exact center of a giant clock gear on some plane of law, patiently waiting for orders.

In any case, Neko Miko is something I don't think we'll see.

[yoshi927]

TENS-OF-THOUSANDS of good characters. Maybe a couple dozen were depicted. We haven't seen them all.

[Spiryt]

Well, maybe she is now wondering on some empty, misty fields of despair.

"This is all roy and that halflings fault!"

That will be very mythological, tragic and stuff.FTFY :smallamused:

My mistake.

[Twilight Jack]

Miko's appearance will take place when Giant is ready to address the question of where she actually ended up. To show her in line for LG-dom in a throwaway panel would have been a waste of a perfectly good reveal.

[Porthos]

Miko is not in line because she is being personally delivered to her Final Destination by Soon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html).

And the heavy implication is that she is not going to The Big Mountain In The Sky. But that's a whole 'nother topic. :smallwink:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Miko is not in line because she is being personally delivered to her Final Destination by Soon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html).

And the heavy implication is that she is not going to The Big Mountain In The Sky. But that's a whole 'nother topic. :smallwink:

But why would she need a personal escort?

From the Highest Heaven, to the Lowest Pits of Hell, moving on seems pretty much automatic. And even Miko at her most psychotic can't overcome all the demons of the Pit, if that is indeed her destination.

Of all the people who died in that battle, ONLY Miko received a personal escort, and from an Epic Level NPC to boot.

Might signify something important. :smallwink:

[Dunamin]

She should have to deal with some sort of in-processing, even if she is to be cast into the deepest pits.
Now, first of all, I am not saying she is going to "the deepest pits", but if she were theoretically going to hell, she'd be in their corresponding processing demi-plane, not the Lawful Good one.

[....]

Good, now I know she won't be showing up to annoy Roy. She's not allowed to come to his area because she didn't worship a Northern god.

And I think it very likely she'll never show up again. She's dead, her role in the story of the Order of the Stick is over. Let her rest in peace (es).

[boomwolf]

thats the LG area, she was CG at death (i think?) so she gets a different afterlife.

[Spiryt]

thats the LG area, she was CG at death (i think?) so she gets a different afterlife.

CHAOTIC Miko? C'mon, she was acting in completely chaotic way, but she all time was doing it according to her own code.

Even in the end, when she gone completely nuts, she though that she was following "the will of the Gods".

We can discuss if she still was good after murder (don't think so) but she still has stick up her ass.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Good, now I know she won't be showing up to annoy Roy. She's not allowed to come to his area because she didn't worship a Northern god.

And I think it very likely she'll never show up again. She's dead, her role in the story of the Order of the Stick is over. Let her rest in peace (es).

Oops! You might have hit on something!
Miko was going to her destination. Miko needs to apologize, and all that. (see any 12-step program)

Instead of escorting her to the Southerners side of the mountain, maybe Soon Kim is escorting Miko to see the man she THOUGHT was an enemy, to show her that Roy was indeed an ally.

As much as YOU don't want her to come back, Rich himself said in No Cure for the Paladin Blues, Miko will be a part of the story until the end.

Soon Kim's second to last statement was: "Perhaps if you had more time... but then again, perhaps not. Redemption is a rare and special thing, after all. It is not for everyone."

Is Miko capable of change? I think she is, but your posts imply that you don't agree.

[Twilight Jack]

Since Soon and the paladin brigade were guiding her soul to its destination, I think she was still Lawful Good at her time of death. It isn't as if a bunch of ghostly paladins being forcibly pulled back to their celestial homes can exactly take a detour.

Lawful Good and Paladin are not equivalent values. Eugene Greenhilt is LG, but I hardly think he could ever have lived up to the standards of the Paladin Code. Miko couldn't remain true to her Paladin Code, but that doesn't necessarily qualify her for an alignment change. To the end, she remained dedicated to the principles of Good and Law, even if her narcissism and delusions skewed her ability to act upon them correctly. She still lived her life in accordance with the dictates of a higher authority and believed that others should do the same (a primary defining factor in Lawfulness). She still believed in altruism and making personal sacrifices to help others (a huge part of the definition of Good). Her failings were in matters of perspective, her egomania, and her inability to accept/understand the compromises and moral failings of others. Because she could not acknowledge even the slightest shades of gray, she mistakenly identified compromise and/or complexities of motivation as Evil.

Let us contrast Miko's nature with the principles of Chaos. Let's see: freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. The belief that authority and obligation should take a backseat to individual expression and personal liberty. At no point does this describe Miko even slightly. Admittedly, she is prone to recklessness, but that stems from her fanatical devotion, not any belief in individual autonomy as an ideal.

Evil? Hmmmm: debase or destroy innocent life, oppressing others, lack of compassion . . . okay, a case could be made here. What's important to remember, however, is that Miko would never have done any of these things knowingly. She had some serious failings to be sure, and her judgement was ridiculously clouded, but she had not reached a place where she would justify the knowing slaughter of an innocent. Now then, I know that many might make the argument that the use of Evil means to achieve (arguably) Good ends (see: Redcloak) is an indicator of Evil, but that doesn't describe Miko either. Her problem was the exact opposite: her utter inability to compromise for the sake of any "greater good," and her tendency to view such compromises as evidence of total corruption. Left unchecked, such a tendency might eventually have led her to an Evil outlook, if she began to see all things as corrupted and no one as innocent. At the time we last saw her, though, she hadn't gotten there by a long shot. She'd still have rushed into a burning hotel to rescue the lives of the innocent. She'd still have defended a wounded child to her last breath. She'd still have done everything in her power and understanding to defend everything she saw as Good. No compromise. No excuses. That's not Evil. It's Good, just a very frightening variety of it.

And for those who feel she had strayed into Neutrality on either of those axes, let me remind you that Neutrality implies either a lack of committment to either extreme or a positive committment towards a balance between the extremes. To quote:


People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

Not Miko.


Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others.

Also not Miko.

And a committment to balance? Forget it.

Face it folks, Miko was/is/has always been Lawful Good.

She just screwed up and lost perspective, causing her to commit a handful of Evil acts unwittingly, and thus bar her from Paladinhood. Her committment to Good and Law never wavered. Her utter myopia and egomania just ensured that she made a few really bad choices.

[David Argall]

Good, now I know she won't be showing up to annoy Roy. She's not allowed to come to his area because she didn't worship a Northern god.
This is entirely inadequate reasoning. The text does not restrict the area to worshipers of a Northern god. That is simply one of the uses of the area. It is also used by any of the inhabitants of the upper planes, and merely says that Northern god worshippers end up there. It does not say there is any restrictions keeping others out or even requiring they stay there. ["End up" here is not to be read as "final destination", but as in a common destination from which they might go in a number of directions. Note that most are assumed to leave this demiplane.]
So there are a variety of ways to get Miko onstage. I have suggested Roy visits the Southern area [to get away from dad for one thing] or that Miko is sent there as a form of holding cell. But it is no great problem if it is desired.


And I think it very likely she'll never show up again. She's dead, her role in the story of the Order of the Stick is over. Let her rest in peace (es).
She was given a sendoff that should be final. Still, she is such a dominating character, one that added so much to the comic. It's a shame not to bring her back.

[Runolfr]

Soon implied that Miko would not be going to the Lawful Good afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html), so she is presumably in a Lawful Neutral queue somewhere..

[Twilight Jack]

She was given a sendoff that should be final. Still, she is such a dominating character, one that added so much to the comic. It's a shame not to bring her back.

I don't necessarily know that her sendoff was intended to be final or that it should be. That isn't necessarily to say that she's going to be raised, but I think an encounter with Roy in the afterlife is certainly in order. To see Miko gently placed upon the path to redemption, a little too late, was heartbreaking to be certain. To have her then use her afterlife to attempt to redeem herself is a sort of story that I don't think is told very often. At least, not in the circumstances where it isn't a ghost story.

[Elandegenerate]

Also with Miko being kinda "serious" character, I guess she didn't fit into joke about red-tapeyed afterlife.

actually....a que line like that + a murderous self rightious paladin= great hilarity.



anyways, im QUITE positive that she is in a different line, who all do we see there in that line, paladins (and a cleric). he is getting a reward for her actions but not as good as them, or something (not sure how you could send someone to heaven and it not be the best it could be, no discussion allowed <_<)

anwhoooo, yea, in a different line with all the peasants and stuff( no doupt she is ranting as we speak)

[Ampersand]

Of all the people who died in that battle, ONLY Miko received a personal escort, and from an Epic Level NPC to boot.

Might signify something important. :smallwink:

Celestial Functionary: "Okay, here's some armor and a sword. Just stand here and wait."

:miko: "Wait for what?"

CF: "Well, you see, Monkey lost a game of Four Square to Freya, and according to the terms of the drunken bet that was made we have to provide them with warriors so their guys can live it up in Valhalla for a while. You..." *checks clipboard* "...are slated to answer two million castings of Summon Planar Ally cast by clerics of the Northern gods. Should only take you a few thousand years, then we'll review your case and see if we can get you a nice flat somewhere on the lower slopes."

[EvilElitest]

Yeah, I know I'm sticking a HUGE piece of flame-bait out here, but it's legitimate question.

Miko's not in line, and according to Eugene, the Southerners are on the opposite side of the mountain than he and Roy.

Is she in a different part of the line? She should have to deal with some sort of in-processing, even if she is to be cast into the deepest pits.

Meh, probably next strip.

It was a pretty big line, and a lot of guys died in the exposion before she did. So she is most likely some where in the back
from,
EE

[A Rainy Knight]

Considering that tens of thousands of Southerners died in the battle, Miko is probably waiting back in line somewhere in the celestial DMV. :smalltongue:

[Lord]

[Spoiler]Wait a minute if maybe Miko will show up. right next to Roy too. Think about it Miko swore vengeance on Roy quite alot. In fact it might even count as a Blood oath of Vengeance. Which would be a tragic Irony in which even if she realized that she was wrong she had to kill the already dead Roy when he was resurrected in order to find peace. But since she is already dead and has very little hope of ressurection {cut in half} her decendents must kill Roy but since she doesn't have any she gets stuck in the waiting room and has to do something else eqaully hard. Or better yet Miko gets stuck in Limbo FOREVER. Yay.[Spoiler]

[The Extinguisher]

Considering she was one of the last to die as well.

Also. It's been two strips in the afterlife. Two. And we already get "where's this person" Gah!

[someonenonotyou]

hey wait didn't soon say, even now "we" are fading into the celestail realm
and windstriker is waiting for you and will visit you and i don't think windstriker is evil so she must be going to the celestail realm yeah happy ending yeah:miko: :smile:

[VanBuren]

Soon implied that Miko would not be going to the Lawful Good afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html), so she is presumably in a Lawful Neutral queue somewhere..

He implied that she would not be going where the rest of the Paladins were going, not that she would go to a non-LG afterlife. I can't really imagine Windstriker would be allowed on many other alignment planes to visit her.

[David Argall]

I don't necessarily know that her sendoff was intended to be final or that it should be. That isn't necessarily to say that she's going to be raised, but I think an encounter with Roy in the afterlife is certainly in order.

No, any encounter battles that sendoff. She gets an entire strip to die in and announces at the end she can "live with it". In a world of magic and soap opera, there is just no more absolute writing out of the scrip. Any return of any form is an offense against it.

[Fineous Orlon]

He implied that she would not be going where the rest of the Paladins were going, not that she would go to a non-LG afterlife. I can't really imagine Windstriker would be allowed on many other alignment planes to visit her.

That's one way to look at it, and I kind of agree. But, do the Paladins need/ have a special, restrictive place that it is hard for them [and their mounts] to leave on the LG plane in the afterlife? What I have trouble explaining is that I would think Windstriker could spend a lot of time with Miko if Miko was on a lawful good plane, not, 'he will visit you as much as he is able.'

I think 'he will visit you as much as he is able' is saying Miko will not be on the LG plane, and Windstriker will need special permission to visit her, wherever she goes.

[FujinAkari]

He implied that she would not be going where the rest of the Paladins were going, not that she would go to a non-LG afterlife. I can't really imagine Windstriker would be allowed on many other alignment planes to visit her.

He can't. Elan specifically notes this in his "Oh buddy Roy" song, people are not allowed to visit the "other alignment" heavens.

[David Argall]

While I agree with the general thrust of the argument, that the closer to paladin LG heaven we place Miko, the more all the evidence makes sense, we do have to keep in mind that Elan's testimony is by Elan.
Granted, he has been right at times, but...

[Rad]

That's one way to look at it, and I kind of agree. But, do the Paladins need/ have a special, restrictive place that it is hard for them [and their mounts] to leave on the LG plane in the afterlife? What I have trouble explaining is that I would think Windstriker could spend a lot of time with Miko if Miko was on a lawful good plane, not, 'he will visit you as much as he is able.'

I think 'he will visit you as much as he is able' is saying Miko will not be on the LG plane, and Windstriker will need special permission to visit her, wherever she goes.

Maybe Windstriker simply has a new duty with another paladin which does not leave much free time.

[pendell]

Celestial Functionary: "Okay, here's some armor and a sword. Just stand here and wait."

:miko: "Wait for what?"

CF: "Well, you see, Monkey lost a game of Four Square to Freya, and according to the terms of the drunken bet that was made we have to provide them with warriors so their guys can live it up in Valhalla for a while. You..." *checks clipboard* "...are slated to answer two million castings of Summon Planar Ally cast by clerics of the Northern gods. Should only take you a few thousand years, then we'll review your case and see if we can get you a nice flat somewhere on the lower slopes."

Ampersand just owned. That is hilarious.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[newcresty]

Celestial Functionary: "Okay, here's some armor and a sword. Just stand here and wait."

:miko: "Wait for what?"

CF: "Well, you see, Monkey lost a game of Four Square to Freya, and according to the terms of the drunken bet that was made we have to provide them with warriors so their guys can live it up in Valhalla for a while. You..." *checks clipboard* "...are slated to answer two million castings of Summon Planar Ally cast by clerics of the Northern gods. Should only take you a few thousand years, then we'll review your case and see if we can get you a nice flat somewhere on the lower slopes."

Then Durkon cast Summon Planar Ally to help them and... surprise.

[Wolfman42666]

Since Soon and the paladin brigade were guiding her soul to its destination, I think she was still Lawful Good at her time of death. It isn't as if a bunch of ghostly paladins being forcibly pulled back to their celestial homes can exactly take a detour.

She still lived her life in accordance with the dictates of a higher authority and believed that others should do the same (a primary defining factor in Lawfulness). She still believed in altruism and making personal sacrifices to help others (a huge part of the definition of Good). Her failings were in matters of perspective, her egomania, and her inability to accept/understand the compromises and moral failings of others. Because she could not acknowledge even the slightest shades of gray, she mistakenly identified compromise and/or complexities of motivation as Evil.

Let us contrast Miko's nature with the principles of Chaos. Let's see: freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. The belief that authority and obligation should take a backseat to individual expression and personal liberty. At no point does this describe Miko even slightly. Admittedly, she is prone to recklessness, but that stems from her fanatical devotion, not any belief in individual autonomy as an ideal.

Evil? Hmmmm: debase or destroy innocent life, oppressing others, lack of compassion . . . okay, a case could be made here. What's important to remember, however, is that Miko would never have done any of these things knowingly. She had some serious failings to be sure, and her judgement was ridiculously clouded, but she had not reached a place where she would justify the knowing slaughter of an innocent. Now then, I know that many might make the argument that the use of Evil means to achieve (arguably) Good ends (see: Redcloak) is an indicator of Evil, but that doesn't describe Miko either. Her problem was the exact opposite: her utter inability to compromise for the sake of any "greater good," and her tendency to view such compromises as evidence of total corruption. Left unchecked, such a tendency might eventually have led her to an Evil outlook, if she began to see all things as corrupted and no one as innocent. At the time we last saw her, though, she hadn't gotten there by a long shot. She'd still have rushed into a burning hotel to rescue the lives of the innocent. She'd still have defended a wounded child to her last breath. She'd still have done everything in her power and understanding to defend everything she saw as Good. No compromise. No excuses. That's not Evil. It's Good, just a very frightening variety of it.

Hmmm....
After reading the definitions, I feel a little lost.
I used to be good a few years back, I believed in helping others no matter what it cost me, because I knew being evil would cost me the one thing I couldn't afford to lose.

But my view of evil was inaccurate, or a least limited, vengeance was something I didn't understand and all superheroes (my view of a paradigm of good sought revenge at one point, whether they *regretted* it or not is another matter.

Since society's adjustment’s I feel I'm neutral by apathy, or lack of confidence to stand up for the little guy, or myself, confidence I think is only something you understand when you don't have it.

But, that's off topic. Miko's "departure" was unspecific, in my opinion, for the same reason the characters don't have concrete character sheet's, so as to not limit their choices. I.E. to keep us guessing.

Miko's response to Soon's statement :miko: "I get to be a paladin again?:smallsmile: :smallfrown: :smalleek:" leads me to think that paladin's get a different afterlife than Fallen Paladin's (that keep their alignment) But as Haley herself said killing an antagonist, is the best way to put them right back in the game.

Whatever becomes of Miko, If we never see her again her finally did her justice (her conversation with Soon) and did tug on my heartstrings (to the tune of sadness, and as someone who hated Miko so much I can't find the words (But something similar to how Charles Phipps feels when he sees Roy:smallwink: ) should mean something significant.)

But I will (probably because of her current absence)
Miss the fanatic Miko, and be sorry if at no point in the story she doesn't redeem herself (can you redeem yourself in the afterlife?:smallconfused:) as she did add to the story, she did deliver them to Shoji, and I think she will because (as Charles Phipps said) death usually causes characters to re-evaluate themselves.

PS: in case you were wondering, my speculation on my own alignment was provoked, if you like, because, despite the fact that I hated her, reading this thread with Soon's send off in mind I realise I do miss her (brain-acid stat)


Not that I think her absence will in any way diminish the story. :smallcontent

[Fineous Orlon]

Maybe Windstriker simply has a new duty with another paladin which does not leave much free time.

Windstriker the slut, pimped out by the LG powers-that-be until he is no longer an attractive mount...

... meh, maybe.

**************************

"Windstriker, I choose you!"

I love the poke-allusion.

Maybe he is a slave to whomever captures him in a poke-ball.

[Alfryd]

Since Soon and the paladin brigade were guiding her soul to its destination, I think she was still Lawful Good at her time of death. It isn't as if a bunch of ghostly paladins being forcibly pulled back to their celestial homes can exactly take a detour.
I suppose that's a reasonable point, but strictly the conditions of their oath merely specify that they can no longer influence happenings on the prime material plane. Presumably, beyond that, they're free to wander wherever their departed spirits could go after death, which, I suppose, includes short trips to neighbouring planes.


She still lived her life in accordance with the dictates of a higher authority and believed that others should do the same...
What higher authority- Shojo? Hinjo? The courts, or the laws of Azure City? Nope. She ostensibly believed in serving the Gods, but, since they weren't in the habit of giving her direct orders, that doesn't count for much. She even adandoned her notions of honourable combat when she struck an unarmed opponent (Hinjo) without warning.

Let us contrast Miko's nature with the principles of Chaos. Let's see: freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. The belief that authority and obligation should take a backseat to individual expression and personal liberty. At no point does this describe Miko even slightly. Admittedly, she is prone to recklessness, but that stems from her fanatical devotion, not any belief in individual autonomy as an ideal.
Actually, I think Miko always had several significant Chaotic qualities. She was always prone to acting on impulse and emotion (chaotic) and simply rationalising her decisions after the fact. She's always been inventive, adaptable and resourceful- the main chaotic virtues. It should also be said that while her commitment to Good was (at least initially) sincere, her commitment to Law was always closer to the letter than to the spirit. Her bluffing of the Ogres, her surprise round against the Order (twice,) her ruse when dealing with Sabine- these are all Lawful acts by the letter but Chaotic in spirit.
Lately, for reasons mentioned above, she's abandoned most of the qualities that made her distinctively Lawful.

The qualities that made Miko, on balance, Lawful, were her dedication to advance planning and preparation (wherever possible,) asceticism, reverence for tradition, and outspoken honesty.

...let me remind you that Neutrality implies either a lack of committment to either extreme or a positive committment towards a balance between the extremes.
I would remind you that a person can consider themselves to be 100% dedicated to what they define as a Good ideal, without this being the case. Lately, Miko has demonstrated a willingness to cut down multiple innocents in order to punish a single evildoer (notably Belkar,) mainly out of a desire for personal revenge, rationalising as neccesary within a pseudo-LG framework to get from point A to point B. But rationalisations are no excuse for a sentient being that's smart enough and informed enough to know better. The fact that she blinds herself to other interpretations willingly is what makes this morally wrong.

Desiring to cut down the entire Order simply because they sided with Belkar was evil. It doesn't matter how malevolent Bitterleaf may be, or how misguided the Order may be in defending him, you do not cut down multiple innocents to punish a single sinner, (not unless the balance of worlds is at stake. Otherwise, any way you cut or slice it, that's evil behaviour.) Defining the Order as 'guilty by association' is simply circular reasoning. There's no particular evidence that they ever colluded with Belkar in his misdeeds.
Executing Shojo out of a desire for personal satisfaction, however much she may wrangle with the facts to that end, is pretty evil.
Desiring to cut down Hinjo, for no other reason than that he was in her way, when a detour would have been both trivial and emminently logical, was highly evil.

Miko has done essentially nothing in the last 200 strips that would seriously qualify her for Good alignment, and Lawful is looking fairly tenuous. So, please, let's drop the pretense that we know she's anything of the sort.

[EvilJames]

Miko didn't kill shojo for personal satisfaction, she killed him because she thought he was working with the enemies of creation and therefor dangerous, unarmed or not. Her initial attack on hinjo was indeed a chaotic burst brought on by her confusion the attack continued because at that point she was defending herself (justifiably or not is irrelavant). Also unless I am misremembering things I can't recall her demonstrating any sort of willingness to cut down innocents to punish an evildoer. And incidently, you are aware that harboring criminals is a crime, right? The moment the Oots steps in to defend Belkar in that way they give up the innocent status, they don't become evil but they do become accessories to the crime.

We may not KNOW what her alignment was but I would hardly call her lawfullness tenous. Calling her evil is just silly. She was misguided and a little slow but she was at worst LN

[Alfryd]

Miko didn't kill shojo for personal satisfaction, she killed him because she thought he was working with the enemies of creation and therefor dangerous, unarmed or not.
You're confusing Miko's motive with her rationalisation. Miko thought X and Y and Z in this case because thinking X and Y and Z were neccesary for her justify her desire to kill the old man. Why, exactly, she wanted to kill Shojo in the first place is what worries me. To the best of our knowledge, she had mainly fondness for and admiration toward her liege lord.

And incidently, you are aware that harboring criminals is a crime, right? The moment the Oots steps in to defend Belkar in that way they give up the innocent status, they don't become evil but they do become accessories to the crime.
Then that is allowing Law to trump Good, to the point of Evil, as it so happens. It is, moreover, a vigilante-style interpretation of justice not suited to a high-ranking member a paladin organisation while in the heart of their own stronghold and home city.
Rich clarified on the forums that this was the point where Miko first actively desired to attack, and kill, Good and Neutral characters. Whether she would even be entitled to execute Belkar offhand under the circumstances is very iffy- he was disarmed and under custody- but she is certainly not entitled to indescriminately slaughter non-Evil characters simply for getting in her way. No LG enforcer of justuice can possibly pretend otherwise.

[EvilJames]

You're confusing Miko's motive with her rationalisation. Miko thought X and Y and Z in this case because thinking X and Y and Z were neccesary for her justify her desire to kill the old man. Why, exactly, she wanted to kill Shojo in the first place is what worries me. To the best of our knowledge, she had mainly fondness for and admiration toward her liege lord.

Which is why I think you might be confused on those points and not me. She did admire him. She had no desire to kill him at all until after she learned that he had lied to her for most of her life and her fractured mind put together a picture that made sense to her, considering her already erroneous assumptions, not before.


Then that is allowing Law to trump Good, to the point of Evil, as it so happens. It is, moreover, a vigilante-style interpretation of justice not suited to a high-ranking member a paladin organisation while in the heart of their own stronghold and home city.
Rich clarified on the forums that this was the point where Miko first actively desired to attack, and kill, Good and Neutral characters. Whether she would even be entitled to execute Belkar offhand under the circumstances is very iffy- he was disarmed and under custody- but she is certainly not entitled to indescriminately slaughter non-Evil characters simply for getting in her way. No LG enforcer of justuice can possibly pretend otherwise.

Well no not in a samurai style setting or in any D&D campaign really. As a high ranking officer of the law she has a great deal of authority over how law is enforced, so it's not very vigilante at all. You'll notice that she stopped immediately when Shojo (pretty much the only one superior to her in rank present) told her to stop she did so. He also did very little to admonish her, he said the halfling would be tried and had her calm down in her room. He even commended her for bringing the halfling as it was obviously a more difficult than had been anticpated.

[Alex Warlorn]

Miko was not simple, she had things twisted backwards and sideways and refused to admit her own failings to the point where she betrayed what she was so intensely fighting for.
Hubris is not for paladins.

[silvadel]

I will say this -- I wouldnt like to be the Celestial Deva assigned to HER case...

[Renx]

He can't. Elan specifically notes this in his "Oh buddy Roy" song, people are not allowed to visit the "other alignment" heavens.

Windstriker isn't a person, nor is he bound by the laws binding afterlives. He's a Celestial Steed, ie a native denizen. While he wouldn't have much chance of getting to the Abyss, Concordant Opposition is fair play.

I stop to wonder now, if an evil minion dies, will there be a questioneer for him, too? "And on day #5600 you gave your minions a raise, what do you have to say for yourself?"

[Charles Phipps]

For me, I'd love to see a serious twist in this situation. Like Roy insists that THEY resurrect Miko because he doesn't want her consigned to Hell (he's that good of a guy).

Miko being terribly repentent yet still struggling with old habits.

It'd be a nice development for her.

BTW, I'm taking down my Roy sig soon since it's fairly clear he's coming back even to me now.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

For me, I'd love to see a serious twist in this situation. Like Roy insists that THEY resurrect Miko because he doesn't want her consigned to Hell (he's that good of a guy).

Miko being terribly repentent yet still struggling with old habits.

It'd be a nice development for her.

BTW, I'm taking down my Roy sig soon since it's fairly clear he's coming back even to me now.

Wait until Roy has his feet on the ground. Until that strip, your sig is correct.

[David Argall]

You're confusing Miko's motive with her rationalisation. Miko thought X and Y and Z in this case because thinking X and Y and Z were neccesary for her justify her desire to kill the old man. Why, exactly, she wanted to kill Shojo in the first place is what worries me. To the best of our knowledge, she had mainly fondness for and admiration toward her liege lord.
Well, that is possibly the reason. Shojo had suddenly proved himself entirely unworthy of her love and admiration, and must be punished, which in the Miko view is generally fatal.
However, this is speculation. We also have Miko's babbling about it all making sense for the first time in years. So maybe Miko has had this picture that a paladin must always be certain. Which means she suppresses her doubts. Then she starts noticing that Shojo is strangely sane for such a senile man.
While her long trips put her out of contact with most of the paladins, it quite easily could have put her into contact with a number of Shojo's less legal deals with other rulers. As merely the messenger, she would not really know anything, and it would be a grave violation of paladin ethics to look at the messages she carries, but she would see the people getting the message, and likely hear talk. So she gets more doubts, doubts she suppresses.

Now we have to remember her basic case hangs together. It hangs rather loosely in nearly midair, but it is only because of our outside view that we can say it is impossible. The party resisted proper arrest. They engaged in a fraudulent trial involving the most sacred secrets of the paladins. They came to the defense of an evil murderer. What can they be but some force for evil?
Now she discovers their story about destroying the lich is false. Could it be a mistake? How? Did they beat the lich? Again, how? She had beaten the party, and the lich had beaten her rather easily. Much easier to believe they had lied and were in league with it.
So now she discovers Shojo and the OOTS are in illegal league. Shojo-OOTS-lich. That must be the situation. But do the details work? Bah, she does not have time to figure out the details, and who can understand the crazy thought patterns of evil anyway? If they were sensible, they would not be evil.
She does not have to be very crazy at all to decide killing Shojo was the proper action.


Then that is allowing Law to trump Good,
Actually, it is allowing Good to trump Law.
Belkar is a career criminal, definitely guilty of murder, jail-break, resisting arrest, and is correctly assumed to be guilty of a long list of other charges. The law says he needs to be tried, and then executed. But really, why bother? The case is overwhelming and even his defenders acknowledge it. In fact they can add more to his list of crimes. From the point of view of Good, why waste time on a trial? Belkar deserves to be near the top of any shoot on sight list.


she is certainly not entitled to indescriminately slaughter non-Evil characters simply for getting in her way. No LG enforcer of justuice can possibly pretend otherwise.
But she is entitled to kill those who deliberately get in her way and insist on staying there. They are aiding evil, with eyes open, and must suffer the consequences. Properly, she should not try to kill them where it can be avoided, but they are the causes of their deaths.

[Yeril]

BTW, I'm taking down my Roy sig soon since it's fairly clear he's coming back even to me now.

Awwwh.. but your "Your Roy Is Dead Son." Always made me chuckle cause I never understood it :smallfrown: .

[Solo]

I do not understand why people keeep defending some of Miko's actions (ie, killing Shojo).

I mean, if the 12 Gods saw fit to peronally take away her paladin powers, you'd think that'd mean she did something wrong.

[Yeril]

I do not understand why people keeep defending some of Miko's actions (ie, killing Shojo).

Because everyone else says "Miko fell, shes gonner burn in hell, she got what she deserved" when we think its fairly obvoius she didnt.

98% of her actions can be very reasonably justified and the other 2% (Killing shojo) can be justified as somthing other than the "Muaha Im Miko! Im Craaaaazy die die die!" that alot of people seem to have pinned on her.

Thats why, atleast I, Defend her.

[Solo]

Because everyone else says "Miko fell, shes gonner burn in hell, she got what she deserved" when we think its fairly obvoius she didnt.



I haven't seen too many people say that.

[Buoyancy]

Well, that is possibly the reason. Shojo had suddenly proved himself entirely unworthy of her love and admiration, and must be punished, which in the Miko view is generally fatal.

If she was supposed to be Lawful Neutral, which, to be fair, is how many people play Paladins, then you'd be correct. I'm not sure how Shojo serving the greater good of the whole world makes him unworthy of respect to any good character.


But she is entitled to kill those who deliberately get in her way and insist on staying there. They are aiding evil, with eyes open, and must suffer the consequences. Properly, she should not try to kill them where it can be avoided, but they are the causes of their deaths.

She's only entitled to kill people if she's _correct_ in her assessment from the viewpoint of an outside observer. Her personal justifications don't really enter into the question at all, except to indicate that she's mentally unstable and therefore unreliable.

[Yeril]

I'm not sure how Shojo serving the greater good of the whole world makes him unworthy of respect to any good character.

.. Unless he was bringing in a army of hobgoblins so that he could get rid of the paladins and rule the city with a iron fist while aiding a epic level lich take over the world. :smalltongue:

Very Unlikley but possible, You could argue that "why did the 12 gods make her fall then?" but I could counter argue "the 12 gods could want to destroy and re-make the world (more ninjas) since they could be Lawful Evil Dietys..." which you could counter counter argue "But how can they have a order of Lawful good paladins who worship them." which I could counter counter counter argue that "they are lawful evil, deciet is the kinda thing they do." I mean look at pelor, he "seems" to be a good god but he is realy Neutral evil, why else was Jozan casting Symbol of pain opn page 291 of the players handbook. :smallbiggrin:

Ps. This isn't a accual point Im trying to make Im just joking around here so don't go "Omg trust a miko fan to come up with logic like that." :smallbiggrin: :smallannoyed:

[David Argall]

I'm not sure how Shojo serving the greater good of the whole world makes him unworthy of respect to any good character.
Well, to start with, his admitted tactics are sufficient crime to justify his immediate removal from office and jailing. We have had only 2 presidential impeachment trials in over 200 years, and both were long affairs where the president stayed in office. Imagine what it would take to have Congress to impeach and convict him in just one day, and have his own party leading the charge. That's a pretty big fall from grace right there.
And of course, as far as the paladins are concerned, his claim of serving the greater good is so much blather. It's just his claim, and based on ideas they reject. Add in the suspicions that the OOTS is in fact some disguised evil group and Shojo is not looking at all well.


She's only entitled to kill people if she's _correct_ in her assessment from the viewpoint of an outside observer.
She wants to kill Belkar. Given we start with the idea that it can be acceptable to kill people at all, Belkar simply has to be way up there on our list of acceptable people to kill. Suggest about any standard reason for killing people and he likely qualifies. We look at him as judge and say "Just killing you here and now would save a lot of time & trouble. About the only reason to bother with a trial is that we don't want the cops to get in the habit of shooting on sight." So by our good standard, it should be fine for her to execute him.

[NikkTheTrick]

She wants to kill Belkar. Given we start with the idea that it can be acceptable to kill people at all, Belkar simply has to be way up there on our list of acceptable people to kill. Suggest about any standard reason for killing people and he likely qualifies. We look at him as judge and say "Just killing you here and now would save a lot of time & trouble. About the only reason to bother with a trial is that we don't want the cops to get in the habit of shooting on sight." So by our good standard, it should be fine for her to execute him.
NO!

By our standards (I am assuming you are talking about USA), it is NEVER acceptable for law enforcement officers to execute without a trial. They can use lethal force, but only because it is a lot more effective for incapacitating criminals. And the only case where use of lethal force is justified is when otherwise the person is about to do something bad. If a person has committed even the most hideous crime imaginable right before officer's eyes, the officer does not have a right to kill him if he no longer poses threat (incapacitated through surrendering or being unconscious).

When Miko was in the thorne room after OOTS trial about to kill Belkar who could no longer move, the killing would be wrong. She had him incapacitated. He was there to face the trial and punishment. She had absolutely no justification for killing him. Because that would be execution (since there was no longer any necessity to incapacitate him) and executions can be done only when ordered through a trial.

Prhaps, one can argue that executing him due to threat that authority would not act right can be considered a chaotic good act, but, as it is very clearly illustrated, she is not chaotic good.

Her only motivations for the execution would be her delusions (sin of prie. She thought herself higher authority in AC than Saphire guard!) or her personal hatred (and hate is evil).

[Mugen Nightgale]

people, let her rust in peace.

[Ampersand]

NO!When Miko was in the thorne room after OOTS trial about to kill Belkar who could no longer move, the killing would be wrong.

I disagree. Belkar by that point had proven that the Azure City justice system was incapable of holding him and that he delighted in the murder and torture of both innocents and legally empowered representatives of said justice system. And that's not even getting into the corpse desecration. Having proven himself too dangerous to be allowed to live, an on the spot execution would have been completely justified...particularly in a world where post-mortum punishments and interrogations are possible. Belkar could easily have attended any subsequent trials as a ghost/spirit or, if the Azure City justice system is far more merciful than it has any right to be, after he was raised.

[Buoyancy]

.. Unless he was bringing in a army of hobgoblins so that he could get rid of the paladins and rule the city with a iron fist while aiding a epic level lich take over the world.

Except, of course, that we know that he wasn't doing so. Miko's justifications for Miko's own actions are quite irrelevant when we as the readers know what's actually going on.



Well, to start with, his admitted tactics are sufficient crime to justify his immediate removal from office and jailing. We have had only 2 presidential impeachment trials in over 200 years, and both were long affairs where the president stayed in office.

Why are you bringing up the U.S. government? How is it at all relevant?

[NikkTheTrick]

I disagree. Belkar by that point had proven that the Azure City justice system was incapable of holding him and that he delighted in the murder and torture of both innocents and legally empowered representatives of said justice system. And that's not even getting into the corpse desecration. Having proven himself too dangerous to be allowed to live, an on the spot execution would have been completely justified...particularly in a world where post-mortum punishments and interrogations are possible. Belkar could easily have attended any subsequent trials as a ghost/spirit or, if the Azure City justice system is far more merciful than it has any right to be, after he was raised.
Belkar managed to escape. While that does indicate that AC justice system had its flaws, acting despite what justice system says is a MURDER.

Taking justice in one's own hands for the exact purpose of preventing legal authorities from handling the matter is a chaotic act. If miko tried to kill Belkar because she thought that otherwise he'll escape again, she went against Saphire Guard's rules. "We have a rule of law in this city" Hiunjo will tell her later. If that would ever be considered Miko's good act, it is a chaotic good act. At best.

[David Argall]

NO!

By our standards (I am assuming you are talking about USA),
No, by the D&D Good standard, as opposed to Lawful, Chaotic, or Evil.


it is NEVER acceptable for law enforcement officers to execute without a trial.
When Miko was in the thorne room after OOTS trial about to kill Belkar who could no longer move, She had absolutely no justification for killing him. Because that would be execution (since there was no longer any necessity to incapacitate him) and executions can be done only when ordered through a trial.
Prhaps, one can argue that executing him due to threat that authority would not act right can be considered a chaotic good act,
Now the objections presented are Lawful in nature. Indeed, you accept killing Belkar may be a good act. Which means the party's objections are siding with evil, which is what Miko denounces them for.


Why are you bringing up the U.S. government? How is it at all relevant?

It is a measure of how serious Shojo's crimes were considered. In one respect at least, worse than any US president has ever done.

[NikkTheTrick]

Now the objections presented are Lawful in nature. Indeed, you accept killing Belkar may be a good act. Which means the party's objections are siding with evil, which is what Miko denounces them for.
1. Note the may part.
2. Siding with Belkar is not an evil act. It is a loyal act. Roy explains it pretty well.
Siding with Belkar is no more evil than abandoning Belkar to his fate - something that has been stated by deva herself in #488 as evil.
Also, Miko's mistrust for justive of the Saphire Guard... That is no good. She is a member. She should either accept their judgement or try to convince them that she is right. Bypassing the very organization she is protectiong and representing is no good...

[Alfryd]

Which is why I think you might be confused on those points and not me. She did admire him. She had no desire to kill him at all until...

Well, that is possibly the reason. Shojo had suddenly proved himself entirely unworthy of her love and admiration, and must be punished, which in the Miko view is generally fatal.
Miko is in the habit of jumping to a given conclusion and ignoring contrary data to support her existing emotional stance toward someone. She liked Shojo. Why didn't she simply ignore and deny what Roy and Belkar were saying in the first place and assume it was all some kind of elaborate hoax? (Which she later does.) Sure, what Shojo seemed to be doing was wrong, but that has to be weighed against her prior admiration/affection toward the old man. If Miko is inclined to rationalise what she wants to believe, then she would have denied Shojo was to blame in the first place, not decided on a swift execution.
If, on the other hand Miko was sufficiently prepared to weight the evidence that her feelings toward Shojo could be completely and utterly reversed, why does she so systematically ignore the evidence against her position directly afterward? It simply doesn't add up. Not unless she had some prior reason to really hate Shojo that had been suppressed (perhaps by his appearance of senility. I don't know.) That's the missing element here.

If Miko is prone to jumping to conclusions regardless of evidence, given that she likes Shojo and hates the Order, why jump to 'it's all Shojo's fault'? Instead of 'it's all Greenhilt + Belkar's fault'?!

So she gets more doubts, doubts she suppresses.
Conceivably, conceivably. This too, however, is speculation.

What can they be but some force for evil?
I've never denied that Miko has at least quasi-rational reasons for supposing the Order to have cooperated with Xykon, though her reasoning is never really adequately splet out by a long shot. Supposing their, or Shojo's involvement in an elaborate plot to destroy Azure City, however, is simply too tenuous an inference to maintain. Quite apart from anything else, she knows they're not Evil.

Actually, it is allowing Good to trump Law.
I was specifically referring to Miko's decision to kill the rest of the Order, if neccesary, in order to slay Belkar. That is allowing Law (and a peculiar version quite distinct from the laws of azure city,) to trump Good. Killing Belkar I have no problem with, on moral terms.

But she is entitled to kill those who deliberately get in her way and insist on staying there.
No she isn't. A Good character is never, ever, ever entitled to kill non-evil people merely because they get in her way. Even if they attack her during her attempt to reach Belkar, she is not entitled to kill them (because, in this case, the attack would not be unprovoked, so self-defence arguments are null and void.) She would be entitled to attack and subdue them nonlethally, but that's as far as it goes.

She's only entitled to kill people if she's _correct_ in her assessment from the viewpoint of an outside observer.
No, she isn't! Paladins do not kill non-evil characters save in cases of direct self-defence from an unprovoked assault ( and 'move aside or die' doesn't count as 'unprovoked'.) Period.


As a high ranking officer of the law she has a great deal of authority over how law is enforced...
The Law of Azure City she is supposed to enforce apparently includes provisions for due process, standards of evidence and trial by jury, all of which she flatly ignores.

You'll notice that she stopped immediately when Shojo (pretty much the only one superior to her in rank present) told her to stop she did so.
The issue of Shojo's rank is irrelevant to the question of fundamental justice, as, for that matter, is the question of Miko's- save that, as a high-ranking paladin, she is intended to set an example for her juniors and subordinates above and beyond normal virtue. She signally failed in that capacity.


For me, I'd love to see a serious twist in this situation. Like Roy insists that THEY resurrect Miko because he doesn't want her consigned to Hell (he's that good of a guy).
Miko being terribly repentent yet still struggling with old habits.
I am afraid that Paladin blues, and Rich's forum commentary, make it seem quite unlikely that Miko's attitude toward the Order will be at all softened in the forseeable future. She is detined to remain antagonist more or less indefinitely. Which probably means we will see the usual routine of breathtakingly unlikely circumstances conspiring with Miko's ever-widening spiral into madness to convince her of the Order's nefarious dealings, etc. etc. etc. Gods forbid we could have a half-plausible rationale for Lawful Good characters hell-bent on our heroes' destruction.

[Alfryd]

By our standards (I am assuming you are talking about USA), it is NEVER acceptable for law enforcement officers to execute without a trial.
Of course not. But this is a Lawful inhibition, not intrinsically a moral one. If an individual police officer had found abundant evidence of a suspect's guilt regarding crimes which intrinsically deserved death, and reviewd the evidence dispassionately, he would, in strict moral terms, be fully entitled to execute then and there.
As a general policy of legislation, of course, we apply stiff legal penalties to this kind of behaviour, as the number of cases where police officers make 'false positives' outweigh the 'false negatives' under due process, or at least that the social evils stemming from execution-minus-trial tend to outweigh those of due process.

Taking justice in one's own hands for the exact purpose of preventing legal authorities from handling the matter is a chaotic act.
Exactly. Quite possibly a gross violation of her code of conduct. But not Evil.

Which means the party's objections are siding with evil, which is what Miko denounces them for.
Roy's motive, at least, is more based on lawful inclinations than any real fondness for Belkar or enthusiasm for his cause.

Siding with Belkar is no more evil than abandoning Belkar to his fate - something that has been stated by deva herself in #488 as evil.
Abdandoning Belkar to an unknown fate would be evil because of what he's apt to do others, not what others are apt to do to him.

[Ampersand]

Taking justice in one's own hands for the exact purpose of preventing legal authorities from handling the matter is a chaotic act.

Except that, at the time, Miko was a fully sanctioned legal and religious enforcer for Azure City and the Sapphire Guard, complete with powers of execution to use at her discretion.


2. Siding with Belkar is not an evil act. It is a loyal act. Roy explains it pretty well.

Belkar is evil. By protecting, aiding, and siding with him, you are saying by implication that you approve of his actions...after all, you're actively, willingly and with complete awareness of the consequences allowing him to continue to act as he has. Most legal systems consider aiding, abetting, giving sanctuary to or otherwise protecting a criminal to be a crime as well. Hell, Roy even purposefully attempts to manipulate the Azure City justice system so Belkar gets off without any punishment!

It's not as bad as what Belkar does himself, but helping him is still a capital-E Evil action. One that every member of the OotS is rife with taint from.

Edit: Not to mention that, by adventuring with him (thus allowing him to gain levels), they've all been willingly helping him become more powerful and thus perpetuate even more heinous deeds once he gets rid of the Mark of Justice.

[DeadmanXI]

Except that, at the time, Miko was a fully sanctioned legal and religious enforcer for Azure City and the Sapphire Guard, complete with powers of execution to use at her discretion.



Belkar is evil. By protecting, aiding, and siding with him, you are saying by implication that you approve of his actions...after all, you're actively, willingly and with complete awareness of the consequences allowing him to continue to act as he has. Most legal systems consider aiding, abetting, giving sanctuary to or otherwise protecting a criminal to be a crime as well. Hell, Roy even purposefully attempts to manipulate the Azure City justice system so Belkar gets off without any punishment!

It's not as bad as what Belkar does himself, but helping him is still a capital-E Evil action. One that every member of the OotS is rife with taint from.

Edit: Not to mention that, by adventuring with him (thus allowing him to gain levels), they've all been willingly helping him become more powerful and thus perpetuate even more heinous deeds once he gets rid of the Mark of Justice.

See today's strip for a number of Good aligned reasons for hanging out with Belkar. Although saving his life is still pretty clearly a loyalty thing. On the other hand, since when is loyalty evil?

[Alfryd]

Although saving his life is still pretty clearly a loyalty thing. On the other hand, since when is loyalty evil?
Loyalty is neither intrisically good nor evil. It is lawful. Loyalty to an evil person is, for most practical intents and purposes, an evil.

Miko was a fully sanctioned legal and religious enforcer for Azure City and the Sapphire Guard, complete with powers of execution to use at her discretion.
In fairness, I think that Miko was obliged, according to the rules of her order, to observe due process within the bounds of her home city ('legitimate authority') as evidenced by Shojo's pronouncement on the subject and Miko's own hesitance to strike.

[EvilJames]

No, she isn't! Paladins do not kill non-evil characters save in cases of direct self-defence from an unprovoked assault ( and 'move aside or die' doesn't count as 'unprovoked'.) Period.

True but at this point it wasn't "move aside or die" since they had already attacked her and had made it clear that they would continue to do so. Also she never said she was going to kill them, only that she was going to "put them down a third time," and she didn't kill them the last two times, why would she start now.

As for the killing shojo thing as you said yourself it doesn't make sense your way either as she had absolutely no reason to hate the old man. It simply makes more sense that it was a snap decision and a very irrational one at that. It was essentially a crime of passion (the feeling of betrayal was more than her fragile mind could take) her second attempt at rationalizing it away was her realizing what she had done. Hinjo was essentially a stronger person and could still think rationally.

[Kioran]

As for the killing shojo thing as you said yourself it doesn't make sense your way either as she had absolutely no reason to hate the old man. It simply makes more sense that it was a snap decision and a very irrational one at that. It was essentially a crime of passion (the feeling of betrayal was more than her fragile mind could take) her second attempt at rationalizing it away was her realizing what she had done. Hinjo was essentially a stronger person and could still think rationally.

No, Hinjo wasn´t that involved, since he didn´t risk his life to retrieve the OoTS, nor was he assaulted and insulted by them. Okay, maybe he would have stayed calm regardless, but he strikes me as rather muttonheaded and mushy, not supremely rational.

[David Argall]

Miko is in the habit of jumping to a given conclusion and ignoring contrary data to support her existing emotional stance toward someone. She liked Shojo. Why didn't she simply ignore and deny what Roy and Belkar were saying in the first place and assume it was all some kind of elaborate hoax?
There are limits to what one can ignore, and when one has worked hard to ignore stuff, the realization can make for dramatic changes in attitude. Here it is very hard to ignore that Shojo is talking about the conspiracy directly to Roy, and that Shojo is guilty of crimes that merit immediate romoval from office. So she must seriously adjust her attitude towards Shojo, and Miko does have this tendency to over-react. It's not that long a journey from angel to devil.


(Which she later does.)
She doesn't really. She was desperately trying to make sense of a world that no longer made sense. That Roy was somehow mixed up in the whole mess she was sure of, even if she was not sure how, so she makes any wild charge that might be the case.


If Miko is prone to jumping to conclusions regardless of evidence, given that she likes Shojo and hates the Order, why jump to 'it's all Shojo's fault'? Instead of 'it's all Greenhilt + Belkar's fault'?!
She jumps to "It's the fault of all three." She accuses Roy too before she kills Shojo. She is just unsure what the relationships were among them.


Quite apart from anything else, she knows they're not Evil.
What magic can reveal, magic can conceal. She knows they do not detect as evil, but also knows there are ways to beat the test. At some point, it is easier to believe the test is being dodged than that good people can be doing these "evil" things.


A Good character is never, ever, ever entitled to kill non-evil people merely because they get in her way. Even if they attack her during her attempt to reach Belkar, she is not entitled to kill them (because, in this case, the attack would not be unprovoked, so self-defence arguments are null and void.) She would be entitled to attack and subdue them nonlethally, but that's as far as it goes.
This is confusing the general for the absolute. Our good character has a desire not to hurt the other, good or not, but ultimately she must be willing to kill 1 to save 2, however we want to define 2.
Change the facts a little. Belkar has gotten bored and intends to rampage thru a bar, killing a score of people. Miko can stop that by killing Belkar, but the party tries to get in her way. The death of 6 to save 20 shows that Miko should not hesitate to do this.
Now she should look for alternatives. Just tying Belkar up may be good enough to save the 20 without killing the 6. Or it may be possible to close the bar and Belkar can't find anybody to hurt. But when push comes to shove, Miko should kill the 6 despite only one of them being evil.


The issue of Shojo's rank is irrelevant to the question of fundamental justice,
It is relevant as to who determines what fundamental justice is. The idea that the party members have that ability is clearly chaotic, not to mention acknowledged as grossly biased. As far as the party knows, it is Shojo's call here whether Miko is behaving properly or not.

EvilJames she had absolutely no reason to hate the old man. It simply makes more sense that it was a snap decision and a very irrational one at that. It was essentially a crime of passion (the feeling of betrayal was more than her fragile mind could take) her second attempt at rationalizing it away was her realizing what she had done. [/QUOTE]
If you have a reason to love someone, you have a reason to hate them. And she may have had a quite passionate, if purely mental, love for Shojo. However, Miko had a much great exposure to the "evil" of the party, and the greater need to do something about it.

[sammiel]

It's pretty clear that Miko was not evil. I didn't see this brought up in this thread, but did anyone notice that it wasn't until she killed Shojo that she lost her paladin powers? The book pretty clearly states that chaotic violations can cause a temporary loss of powers, but even the slightest evil violation results in an immediate loss of all paladin abilities. Which means that was the first evil act she had done. At that point, its up to interpretation as to whether or not the fact that she never repented before her death as to whether or not she shifted towards evil.

Although Lord Kim sort of implies her status is in question, I still think she was Lawful Good when she died. I personally would love to see her come back, villain or not, because she was a very compelling character. As long as she doesn't become a blackguard and then vader her way into heaven, I think she can make for some very good strips.

[FujinAkari]

The book pretty clearly states that chaotic violations can cause a temporary loss of powers, but even the slightest evil violation results in an immediate loss of all paladin abilities. Which means that was the first evil act she had done.

This is incorrect.


A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities

It doesn't say anything about the chaotic violation ("gross violation of the code of conduct") being a temporary loss. The penalty for evil actions and gross chaotic actions are identical. While it is easier to fall for evil, it isn't "more permanent."

[Deathwisher]

Originally Posted by David Argall
This is confusing the general for the absolute. Our good character has a desire not to hurt the other, good or not, but ultimately she must be
willing to kill 1 to save 2, however we want to define 2.
Change the facts a little. Belkar has gotten bored and intends to rampage thru a bar, killing a score of people. Miko can stop that by killing Belkar, but the party tries to get in her way. The death of 6 to save 20 shows that Miko should not hesitate to do this.
Now she should look for alternatives. Just tying Belkar up may be good enough to save the 20 without killing the 6. Or it may be possible to close the bar and Belkar can't find anybody to hurt. But when push comes to shove, Miko should kill the 6 despite only one of them being evil.


But that was not what happened. You are describing a hypothetical situation that did not occur and doesn't resemble he actual event at all.
Miko was not protecting anyone! Nor was the OOTS defending a murderer while he was commiting a crime. They were defending someone who was down on the ground and bleeding.
Note also that strictly speaking Belkars guilt for killing the guard had not been proven yet. While there is considerable evidence against him, no one witnessed the act and it is not like they dusted for finferprints. Hinjo pointed that out later.

[David Argall]

But that was not what happened. You are describing a hypothetical situation that did not occur and doesn't resemble he actual event at all.
The hypothetical challenges the principle claimed, that a good character should never kill an non-evil one. If that principle is rejected in the hypothetical case, it becomes questionable in the Belkar case.


Miko was not protecting anyone!
You really want to say Belkar won't be killing any nice people in the future? Or that he won't be trying to? Based on past experience, the bodies will start piling up as soon as Belkar can get off by himself. We can't identify who Miko is protecting, but the number seems large.


Nor was the OOTS defending a murderer while he was commiting a crime. They were defending someone who was down on the ground and bleeding.
A largely trivial difference. The assumption is that Belkar will get up and start killing people.
Consider again the laws against assisting a criminal. They are not limited to the moment the crime is taking place. They cover past and future crimes.


Note also that strictly speaking Belkars guilt for killing the guard had not been proven yet. While there is considerable evidence against him, no one witnessed the act and it is not like they dusted for finferprints. Hinjo pointed that out later.
Not that I can find. Roy got the charge reduced on a legal technicality, but nobody shows the least doubt about his guilt.
And as has been noted, this is a Lawful objection, not a Good objection.

[Alfryd]

The hypothetical challenges the principle claimed, that a good character should never kill an non-evil one.
That's not what I wrote.

A Good character is never, ever, ever entitled to kill non-evil people merely because they get in her way.
Which was essentially the case here.
I will reply to the remainder of your points later.

[Deathwisher]

The hypothetical challenges the principle claimed, that a good character should never kill an non-evil one. If that principle is rejected in the hypothetical case, it becomes questionable in the Belkar case.


I don't adhere to that principal anyway. However, killing a non-evil person should only be done when necessary. In your example that necessity exists. In the actual situation it did not.



You really want to say Belkar won't be killing any nice people in the future? Or that he won't be trying to? Based on past experience, the bodies will start piling up as soon as Belkar can get off by himself. We can't identify who Miko is protecting, but the number seems large.


What is that supposed to mean? Are paladins supposed to go around killing people that may do something evil in the future? In the 'Big Stick' comic that was called 'pre-emptive lawful good' :smallbiggrin: , but I don't think it is a good idea and it is definitely not lawful. Use of deadly force is only considered acceptable during an arrest if the suspect is actually threatening someone.



A largely trivial difference. The assumption is that Belkar will get up and start killing people.
Consider again the laws against assisting a criminal. They are not limited to the moment the crime is taking place. They cover past and future crimes.


Trivial? :smalleek: It makes all the difference in the world: The difference between killing out of immediate necessity and killing because it happens to be convenient. Anyone in lawenforcement may have to do the first. Anyone doing the latter ends up facing murder charges. Incidentally, saving the life of someone, even a criminal, when he is about to be killed does not count as assisting a criminal. they were not helping Belkar to commit a crime, nor did they help him to escape. they merely prevented a murder from taking place.



Not that I can find. Roy got the charge reduced on a legal technicality, but nobody shows the least doubt about his guilt.
And as has been noted, this is a Lawful objection, not a Good objection.

Comic 409 Hinjo points out that Belkar has merely been accused. In any case, not executing people until they have been convicted is certainly lawful, but in itself I think it is also a morally good thing: it might keep you from making the kind of mistakes where you kill your liegelord, because you THINK he is conspiring with hobgoblins.

[Moechi_Vill]

Maybe we wont be able to see her in such a big line but if you ever hear someone screaming about being the chosen one and wanting to speak with the 12 gods immediatly for further instructions about her destiny then shes probably around.

But more seriously shes in another line going to another plane so its not likely.


I think she kinda got the message towards the end.

[sammiel]

This is incorrect.



It doesn't say anything about the chaotic violation ("gross violation of the code of conduct") being a temporary loss. The penalty for evil actions and gross chaotic actions are identical. While it is easier to fall for evil, it isn't "more permanent."

Sorry, I guess I was remembering every single paladin sourcebook ever printed except for the core rules.

[David Argall]

Quote:
The hypothetical challenges the principle claimed, that a good character should never kill an non-evil one.

That's not what I wrote.

Quote:
A Good character is never, ever, ever entitled to kill non-evil people merely because they get in her way.

Which was essentially the case here.

The distinctions between the two statements are unimportant in the cases under discussion. The differences in general are mostly just trivial, or suspect since they mean it is allright to kill non-evil people for other reasons. Now we can generalize "get in her way" to mean "for trivial reasons", but this acknowledges that they can be killed.


Are paladins supposed to go around killing people that may do something evil in the future?
In the case at hand, Belkar will do something evil in the future, and presumably in the near future.


Use of deadly force is only considered acceptable during an arrest if the suspect is actually threatening someone.
Not only. see...

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1997/oct975.htm

Deadly force may be constitutionally reasonable in defense of life or when necessary to arrest dangerous suspects.

http://law.jrank.org/pages/1453/Justification-Law-Enforcement-Use-deadly-force-in-connection-with-an-arrest.html
The U.S. Supreme Court stated the standard in 1985: "Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent an escape, and if, where feasible, some warning has been given" (Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1, 11–12 (1985)). Garner concerned the shooting of a suspect fleeing from a burglary who was not believed to pose any physical threat; in that case the Court held that the shooting was an unreasonable seizure of the person. The Garner standard is a substantial modification of the common law, which permitted an officer to shoot a fleeing suspect whom he had probable cause to believe had committed a felony, whether the felony was physically dangerous or not.


saving the life of someone, even a criminal, when he is about to be killed does not count as assisting a criminal.
This assumes the killing was improper. You do not have any right to stop a lawful execution for example. Nor would you have the right to prevent the proper use of deadly force in an arrest. So if we rule Miko had authority to make the execution, the party has no right to interfere.


Comic 409 Hinjo points out that Belkar has merely been accused.
Again, this is a rather trivial point from the given facts. We might note a different Hinjo remark from 409. "I'll stand between any two murderers I want." Technically that may not be a claim that Belkar is guilty, but Belkar, among others, treats it as such. Hinjo is simply taking a Lawful position that the legal technicalities need to be followed.


not executing people until they have been convicted is also a morally good thing: it might keep you from making the kind of mistakes where you kill your liegelord, because you THINK he is conspiring with hobgoblins.
Again, this is a pragmatic statement. It might keep you? Then it might not. [Indeed, it would seem on the given facts that letting Belkar get killed would have prevented Miko from being that obsessed, and thus not in a killing mood with Shojo.]

[Deathwisher]

In the case at hand, Belkar will do something evil in the future, and presumably in the near future.


Probably yes, but for the moment he is immobilized, can be restrained and put in jail. The argument that he escaped before is irrelevant. The fact that a prisoner has escaped from a jail is not an automatic death sentence. Also, he did not escape from the normal jail. He escaped from a cellar the Miko had arranged for him out of spite.



Not only. see...

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1997/oct975.htm

Deadly force may be constitutionally reasonable in defense of life or when necessary to arrest dangerous suspects.

http://law.jrank.org/pages/1453/Justification-Law-Enforcement-Use-deadly-force-in-connection-with-an-arrest.html
The U.S. Supreme Court stated the standard in 1985: "Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent an escape, and if, where feasible, some warning has been given" (Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1, 11–12 (1985)). Garner concerned the shooting of a suspect fleeing from a burglary who was not believed to pose any physical threat; in that case the Court held that the shooting was an unreasonable seizure of the person. The Garner standard is a substantial modification of the common law, which permitted an officer to shoot a fleeing suspect whom he had probable cause to believe had committed a felony, whether the felony was physically dangerous or not.


But at the moment Miko tries to kill him Belkar is no threat. He can be arrested an put in jail. Like I said before, he managed to escape only due to the fact that he had not been put in a normal cell. Something for which Miko was responsible


This assumes the killing was improper. You do not have any right to stop a lawful execution for example. Nor would you have the right to prevent the proper use of deadly force in an arrest. So if we rule Miko had authority to make the execution, the party has no right to interfere.


But since Belkar has not been tried and not convicted, there can be no such thing as a legal execution, unless we really want to assume that the AC Paladins have that authority. (Judge Dredd!) The fact that they hold trials at all seems to argue against it


Again, this is a rather trivial point from the given facts. We might note a different Hinjo remark from 409. "I'll stand between any two murderers I want." Technically that may not be a claim that Belkar is guilty, but Belkar, among others, treats it as such. Hinjo is simply taking a Lawful position that the legal technicalities need to be followed.


We know those facts. Mikos knowledge of what happened is much more limited. Insiting that people face trial before a sentence is pronounced is not just a matter of technicallities. It is the basis of the whole legal system.


Again, this is a pragmatic statement. It might keep you? Then it might not. [Indeed, it would seem on the given facts that letting Belkar get killed would have prevented Miko from being that obsessed, and thus not in a killing mood with Shojo.]

Once again, executing someone without a trial is an illegal act. Stopping an illegal act is not a crime, nor is it legal. Noone prevented the paladins from bringing Belkar to trial. They just stopped the murder.

[Ar-Sakal]

Yeah, I know I'm sticking a HUGE piece of flame-bait out here, but it's legitimate question.

Miko's not in line, and according to Eugene, the Southerners are on the opposite side of the mountain than he and Roy.

Is she in a different part of the line? She should have to deal with some sort of in-processing, even if she is to be cast into the deepest pits.

Meh, probably next strip.

I hope she is dead and done for. Personally, I never want to see her again.

[dakiwiboid]

I hope she is dead and done for. Personally, I never want to see her again.

I would settle for "safely stashed in Rich's mind and forgotten by this forum until she's needed for plot purposes".

[Ar-Sakal]

I would settle for "safely stashed in Rich's mind and forgotten by this forum until she's needed for plot purposes".

Are you kidding? Her fans won't let her rest. That is why we bashers have to keep stating our hatred for her...

[Deathwisher]

I hope she is dead and done for. Personally, I never want to see her again.

Come on, then I'd have nobody left to bash! :smallfrown:

[Alex Warlorn]

Except, of course, that we know that he wasn't doing so. Miko's justifications for Miko's own actions are quite irrelevant when we as the readers know what's actually going on.



No. That is not the point at all.

There IS another possibly: killing Shojo was simply the straw that broke the camel's back, and the 12 gods had been giving Miko a lot of slack previous because they knew they needed every high level good character they could get their hands on least Xykon unlease the Snarl on a lease. But killing ANOTHER person out to do the same thing, I think was the last straw.

[Deathwisher]

No. That is not the point at all.

There IS another possibly: killing Shojo was simply the straw that broke the camel's back, and the 12 gods had been giving Miko a lot of slack previous because they knew they needed every high level good character they could get their hands on least Xykon unlease the Snarl on a lease. But killing ANOTHER person out to do the same thing, I think was the last straw.

I thought that alignment was pretty much an absolute thing, not linked to the judgement of a god. If Mikos actions had been truly evil previously she should have fallen anyway, regardless of the gods'wishes. Of course it is a bit awkward if a god with a lawful good alignement makes a compromise. Would that change the alignment of the god or would 'lawful good' be redefined to fit the gods judgement?

[David Argall]

The fact that a prisoner has escaped from a jail is not an automatic death sentence.
Killing a guard on the way out makes it a lot more like one. Resisting arrest in a lethal manner adds to the ticket.


Also, he did not escape from the normal jail. He escaped from a cellar the Miko had arranged for him out of spite.
Trivial. And justifiable on grounds of greater ability to prevent escape, even if that is merely an excuse.


But at the moment Miko tries to kill him Belkar is no threat. He can be arrested an put in jail. Like I said before, he managed to escape only due to the fact that he had not been put in a normal cell. Something for which Miko was responsible.
As noted before, the cell arrangement is both a trivial item, and could easily make escape harder. For one thing, the more the party is split up, the harder for them to arrange an escape.


Insiting that people face trial before a sentence is pronounced is not just a matter of technicallities. It is the basis of the whole legal system.
It may be either, depending on the case. And the closer the decision of the court is to automatic, the more it is a technicality.



I would settle for "safely stashed in Rich's mind and forgotten by this forum until she's needed for plot purposes".

That could easily mean in the next strip or two. A meeting in the Heavens is quite tempting plot-wise. Indeed, unless she has been entirely written out of the future strips, the near future is quite possibly the best time to bring her back.



There IS another possibly: killing Shojo was simply the straw that broke the camel's back, and the 12 gods had been giving Miko a lot of slack previous because they knew they needed every high level good character they could get their hands on least Xykon unlease the Snarl on a lease. But killing ANOTHER person out to do the same thing, I think was the last straw.
The theory is flawed on several grounds. The basic is that Any evil act causes Any paladin, from the least to the most, to fall. We don't need this nonsense about the last straw. She killed an innocent man, she falls, period.
More technical, Shojo was no longer able to do much. He was on his way to spend the rest of his life in jail. For this sort of goal, Miko was much the more useful tool, which they proceeded to break.
And on the strip level, it is questionable that the gods even know about the lich yet. Also they are under unstated limits on how they can act on earth, which means they may be pretty much helpless to make any such plan.

[Deathwisher]

Killing a guard on the way out makes it a lot more like one. Resisting arrest in a lethal manner adds to the ticket.


Yes, and I don't think anyone would have objected if an archer had brought Belkar down while he was running (Shot while trying to escape). The problem is that he was already down. Killing the guard may warrant a death sentence, but that is for a court to decide and as I pointed out earlier that may be considered manslaughter rather than murder due to the questionable nature of the arrest. Manslaughter apperently doesn't carry the death penalty under Azur City laws.



Trivial. And justifiable on grounds of greater ability to prevent escape, even if that is merely an excuse.

As noted before, the cell arrangement is both a trivial item, and could easily make escape harder. For one thing, the more the party is split up, the harder for them to arrange an escape.


Sorry, I was being unclear. I brought this up as counter argument to earlier remarks that Miko had no choice but to kill Belkar, since the jail could not contain him. My point is that he was never in the normal jail, so there is no proof that he would be able to walk out of it. Despite Roys remarks, there has been no evidence of Belkar as a master jailbreaker. In OOTPC he took advantage of an explosion that destroyed the jail and in Azur City he took advantage of Mikos mistake and the fact that the guards failed to do a proper search.

[Wiseman]

and what about make an spin-of in this forum whit the story of miko (like the alternatives adventures of the paladin of neverwinter), of course if lord rich, master of the TOotS univer, aprove this idea

[cavalier973]

Celestial Functionary: "Okay, here's some armor and a sword. Just stand here and wait."

:miko: "Wait for what?"

CF: "Well, you see, Monkey lost a game of Four Square to Freya, and according to the terms of the drunken bet that was made we have to provide them with warriors so their guys can live it up in Valhalla for a while. You..." *checks clipboard* "...are slated to answer two million castings of Summon Planar Ally cast by clerics of the Northern gods. Should only take you a few thousand years, then we'll review your case and see if we can get you a nice flat somewhere on the lower slopes."

So THAT'S how it works....I was always a bit curious

[the_tick_rules]

her trial would be so much more fun than roy's.

[Fineous Orlon]

The theory is flawed on several grounds. The basic is that Any evil act causes Any paladin, from the least to the most, to fall. We don't need this nonsense about the last straw. She killed an innocent man, she falls, period.

Yep.

But what if killing Shojo was neutral or lawful neutral?
The last straw argument holds more then. The Giant himself has stated that Miko has no problem with Law, it's the good that is hard for her.

In a symmetrical way, we have just seen that Roy has little problem with Good, it's the law that is tough for him.

But Roy was not a paladin.

It is not Lawful Good to murder/ execute your liege when you could instead take him into custody, and there are witnesses to his perfidy. Hinjo would be a good witness, related to Shojo, yet testifying to the damning statements Shojo made.

What if her intent in this moment of stress was essentially Lawful Neutral?

She was empowered to act as Judge, Jury, and Executioner, it's just that in this instance, it was not good to do so, although, it may have been conceivably her right to do so.

If she were confirmed LN by her action [executing Shojo] she would also fall.

Rich has said that Lawful neutrals do not always follow the laws in every land they visit, but they are no less lawful if they remain faithful to their duties.

Miko certainly felt adrift, yet tried to remain faithful to her duties. LN...


More technical, Shojo was no longer able to do much. He was on his way to spend the rest of his life in jail. For this sort of goal, Miko was much the more useful tool, which they proceeded to break.

I think they did not break her. She had forfeited the right to be a paladin, regardless of what falling might do to her.


And on the strip level, it is questionable that the gods even know about the lich yet. Also they are under unstated limits on how they can act on earth, which means they may be pretty much helpless to make any such plan.

I am not sure where you are going with this, but they do have limits on the direct actions they can take without... major or unintended consequences.

[Deathwisher]

Yep.

But what if killing Shojo was neutral or lawful neutral?
The last straw argument holds more then. The Giant himself has stated that Miko has no problem with Law, it's the good that is hard for her.

In a symmetrical way, we have just seen that Roy has little problem with Good, it's the law that is tough for him.

But Roy was not a paladin.

It is not Lawful Good to murder/ execute your liege when you could instead take him into custody, and there are witnesses to his perfidy. Hinjo would be a good witness, related to Shojo, yet testifying to the damning statements Shojo made.

What if her intent in this moment of stress was essentially Lawful Neutral?

She was empowered to act as Judge, Jury, and Executioner, it's just that in this instance, it was not good to do so, although, it may have been conceivably her right to do so.

If she were confirmed LN by her action [executing Shojo] she would also fall.

Rich has said that Lawful neutrals do not always follow the laws in every land they visit, but they are no less lawful if they remain faithful to their duties.

Miko certainly felt adrift, yet tried to remain faithful to her duties. LN...


But why is it lawful? By normal law? As you say, a trial would have worked just fine. That would have been the legal way. By the code of the Sapphyre guard? I think that code would have required that she at least tries to detect evil before she kills. Also, she herself states that alignment no longer matters and that everyone is a traitor. This really becomes a matter of her peronal opinions, not any code. I can see why you'd call it neutral rather than evil (I don't agree but that is MY personal opinion) But in that case it looks more like true neutral to me. Lawful Neutral would have been at least some sort of 'by the book' action, like convening a court of paladins to do the judging. Starchamber justice perhaps, but at least the formalities should be observed.



I