Initiated Maneuver Question - Zealot

[kalos72]

So I have a group of 2 aegis and a zealot in a collective.

If the Zealot initiates a maneuver for the collective, say Benediction of the Silver Crane: Upon a successful attack, initiator and all allies within 30ft are healed for 12d6 points of damage.

Does the Zealot have to be the one making the successful attack or because he initiated it for the collective, any member can and they all benefit?

I really want the Zealot to hang back and direct traffic but if he has to be the one making the attacks he cant really do that wihout losing most of why he is there in the first place.

[kalos72]

Am I missing the way maneuvers work here? I am really not sure...

[exelsisxax]

You seem to be misunderstanding some things. It is not possible to initiate a maneuver 'for' someone else. Using the maneuver is initiating it, and you can't make another character use a maneuver.

A zealot can target his collective with maneuvers using his collective. The zealot is still the initiator, and nothing at all is different for Benediction except that the 30' range is instead "30', or collective member"

You seem to be misunderstanding what zealots do as well. Hanging back is basically the worst tactic for a zealot. You should be getting in faces, tanking and protecting allies, and constantly giving your allies Zeal and handing out maneuvers with Echoes of Steel.

Have a guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505647-Unity-and-Determination-Castilonium%92s-guide-to-the-Path-of-War-Zealot).

[kalos72]

Thank you for the feedback, I am new to maneuvers. :(

Here is the scenario, we are working on a combat team of Aegiis, supported by Zealots, a Tactician leading them and possibly a Vitalist for additional healing. Or some combination thereof...

I wanted one of the collective to stay out of combat but still able to support the unit so they can use Ardent Legion power to summon the collective back out of danger OR summon in a new unit to the fight to replace/support the initial unit. This is the tricky part I think...

So one, the Zealot needs to do the fighting/attacking for the collective to gain any benefit, healing primarily.

Figuring out the whole collective thing is a PITA too...at least organizing it is.

[kalos72]

Anyone able to educate me here? I need some help apparently... :(

[exelsisxax]

You have not asked any more questions, so no, nobody can help you.

If you need help with something, explain the thing and what part you need help with.

[kalos72]

How does a Zealot hand out maneuvers? How does the collective effect this process?

What can a Zealot do in a collective with Aegiis that would help in the scenario provided? Are there better ways to leverage the Silver Crane?Radiant Dawn to heal the group of Aegiis?

I am guess the Vitalist might make a good "anchor" toon then? Can I use him to stay out of combat, heal the collective and then Ardent Legion as needed?

Is the idea of Aegis as troops, Zealots as sergeants, tactician as an officer with Vitalist as a medic make sense? Better options keeping the whole psionic theme?

Better? :)

[exelsisxax]

You need to read the guide I posted. Then you'll understand how the zealot works and what it does.

If you're high enough level to consider escaping a fight with argent legion, you're doing it wrong. It is for teleporting into a fight - that's what the hefty combat bonuses are there for. If you want out just use normal psychoportation.

[upho]

Thank you for the feedback, I am new to maneuvers. :(

Here is the scenario, we are working on a combat team of Aegiis, supported by Zealots, a Tactician leading them and possibly a Vitalist for additional healing. Or some combination thereof...

I wanted one of the collective to stay out of combat but still able to support the unit so they can use Ardent Legion power to summon the collective back out of danger OR summon in a new unit to the fight to replace/support the initial unit. This is the tricky part I think...

So one, the Zealot needs to do the fighting/attacking for the collective to gain any benefit, healing primarily.

Figuring out the whole collective thing is a PITA too...at least organizing it is.You could go with a ranged zealot, as they can be pretty close to what you seem to be looking for (see for example the archer sample build in Castilonium's guide exelsisxax linked to).

Or you could replace the zealot with a rajah, as they're very much a back-line heavily support focused initiator who actually focuses on initiating maneuvers "through" allies. They don't gain collective as a class feature though, but if that's important you can of course simply make a dip into zealot or another suitable psionic class.

And yes, I agree with exelsisxax, you really should read Castilonium's guide. The zealot can be a bit tricky to understand initially, has a lot of moving parts and allows for a wide variety of very different builds, but you'll find the answer to most - if not all - of your questions in the guide. And if you don't, simply post here again or in the guide discussion thread and I'm sure we'll be able to help you out.

[kalos72]

Sorry guys, I just dont know where to go here so my questions are all over the place.

Zealot are pure marital, would psionic attacks apply to any of the zealots features? Is the class is pure martial, being from Ptah of War, what makes it a psionic initiator?

I want to build a psionic focused combat team, Zealot were recommended to support a group of Aegis. Is there any psionic symmetry with a martial class?

[exelsisxax]

Sorry guys, I just dont know where to go here so my questions are all over the place.

Zealot are pure marital, would psionic attacks apply to any of the zealots features? Is the class is pure martial, being from Ptah of War, what makes it a psionic initiator?

I want to build a psionic focused combat team, Zealot were recommended to support a group of Aegis. Is there any psionic symmetry with a martial class?

None of these questions make any sense. Have you ever played either a psionic class or an initiator? Because it seems like you do not understand what either system does or how they work. It is also very clear that you did not read the guide that was provided.

[kalos72]

/sigh

I have, in Castiloniums Guide, she calls a zealot a psionic initiator.

I am looking for Psionic symmetry here between aegis and a martial class. Zealots were suggested but I dont see the path since Zealots appear to be pure physical attackers.

Could a psionic attack, assuming the player had psionics powers of course, affect a Maneuver?

Say a Psion/Zealot, hitting an enemy with a psionic blast, would it still affect a maneuver like Benediction of the Silver Crane****: Use when you make a successful attack and heal yourself and all allies in your Collective (or 30 feet) for 12d6 HP. Because of the multi-target healing, this has the potential to undo more damage to your party overall than some counters could prevent in a given round. The boost does not specify melee or ranged or anything.

If these maneuvers/stancesetc will not be affected by any sort of psionics, then this class might not fit my desire.

[exelsisxax]

Yes, hitting on an attack roll is a successful attack roll. This is not influenced in any way by anything being psionic or not or a maneuver or not.

[Red Fel]

Okay. Here's the first thing you have to understand.

The Zealot class combines the Path of War maneuvers system with elements of psionics. Thus, to get good use out of the class, you need to understand (1) maneuvers, and (2) psionics.

It's like trying to prepare a three-course meal. You'll need to know how to prepare a soup and/or salad, an entree, and a dessert. If you're unfamiliar with any one of those components, your final product will be off.

In other words, if Zealot is too complex for you, you might consider a less-hybrid class - either a straightforward and basic Path of War class, like the Warder or Stalker, or a more focused psionic class, like the Psion or Dread.

Moving on.


So I have a group of 2 aegis and a zealot in a collective.

. . .

Does the Zealot have to be the one making the successful attack or because he initiated it for the collective, any member can and they all benefit?

Exel handled this one, but yes. When you initiate a maneuver, you initiate that maneuver. The Collective class feature allows you to target a member of your collective with a maneuver. That's it; that's all it does. As Exel says, treat any range measurement as itself, plus collective members within 100 feet plus 10/level. For example, a 30-foot range becomes "30 feet, plus any collective members within 100 feet plus 10 feet per Zealot level."


Sorry guys, I just dont know where to go here so my questions are all over the place.

Zealot are pure marital, would psionic attacks apply to any of the zealots features? Is the class is pure martial, being from Ptah of War, what makes it a psionic initiator?

I want to build a psionic focused combat team, Zealot were recommended to support a group of Aegis. Is there any psionic symmetry with a martial class?

These aren't words with meaning. "Pure martial" isn't a term that has meaning. "Psionic symmetry" is not a term with meaning. "Psionic attacks" is not a term with meaning.

What makes Zealots psionic, as you can see from the class description, is that they gain a pool of power points, and have a defined manifester level. They can also (with Burning Contemplation) take psionic feats, treating their Cha as Wis for the purpose of qualifying. Additionally, they may spend their power points to fuel class features, such as Conviction.


Could a psionic attack, assuming the player had psionics powers of course, affect a Maneuver?

Say a Psion/Zealot, hitting an enemy with a psionic blast, would it still affect a maneuver like Benediction of the Silver Crane****: Use when you make a successful attack and heal yourself and all allies in your Collective (or 30 feet) for 12d6 HP. Because of the multi-target healing, this has the potential to undo more damage to your party overall than some counters could prevent in a given round. The boost does not specify melee or ranged or anything.

If these maneuvers/stancesetc will not be affected by any sort of psionics, then this class might not fit my desire.

Maneuvers work as they are written. So let's break it down.

Benediction of the Silver Crane is a Boost, meaning that it's meant to be used in conjunction with another action. Upon a successful "attack," it heals allies.

As Exel has said, an attack is an attack. This is so whether it is magical, physical, or psionic. Unless a maneuver specifies the type of attack (e.g. "ranged attack" or "attack with a weapon"), it applies to any sort of attack. Assuming Psionic Blast is an attack (it's a stun in a cone), it could trigger the benefit of Benediction of the Silver Crane.

That said, a caveat: Zealots don't get powers. At least, not intrinsically. They get power points. Now, thanks to Burning Contemplation, you can take psionic feats - such as Expanded Knowledge - and thereby gain specific powers - such as Psionic Blast. But you don't natively gain powers as a Zealot.

Now, a lot of this stuff is stuff you would have learned, OP, just by reading the class. Not even the guide Exel linked, but the class itself. It's pretty specific as to what it can do. The only thing that was really a gray area was whether a power constituted an "attack," and even that is addressed in the written rules. Just saying, next time, be sure that you can say you've read thoroughly before you ask those kinds of questions.

[kalos72]

Again, thank you to all for your replies. I am not trying to be obtuse, but I am asking for feedback on the scenario I described and struggling with the symmetry/coordination details.

So if a Zealot shares the Benediction boost with an Aegis in his collective via Echoes of Steel. That Aegis then makes a successful attack and heals the entire collective correct?

Nowhere that I could find does any documentation I have read so far, detail that the benefits of the maneuver/stance/boost could be applied to psionic actions as well as the typically accepted physical ones of a martial class. So the benefit of a Zealot in a psionic army was unclear to me.

Hence the confusion on my end.

[exelsisxax]

Again, thank you to all for your replies. I am not trying to be obtuse, but I am asking for feedback on the scenario I described and struggling with the symmetry/coordination details.

So if a Zealot shares the Benediction boost with an Aegis in his collective via Echoes of Steel. That Aegis then makes a successful attack and heals the entire collective correct?

Nowhere that I could find does any documentation I have read so far, detail that the benefits of the maneuver/stance/boost could be applied to psionic actions as well as the typically accepted physical ones of a martial class. So the benefit of a Zealot in a psionic army was unclear to me.

Hence the confusion on my end.

An aegis can't interact with the collective, so no. A ZEALOT, who has his own collective and can use it to alter targets for some of his abilities, can. An aegis is just a member.

There is no such thing as a psionic action, so it is unsurprising that you didn't find any documentation on it. You're creating rules in your head that don't make sense to anyone because you don't know what the rules actually are.

Nobody understands why you keep talking about symmetry, because it's not a mechanical thing that exists in any way.

[Galacktic]

Read the class block, read the guide that was linked, and read the basics of how Path of War works.

[Necroticplague]

So if a Zealot shares the Benediction boost with an Aegis in his collective via Echoes of Steel. That Aegis then makes a successful attack and heals the entire collective correct? No.

First off: Echoes of steel doesn't share anything. It gives a collective member the ability to do something. They still have to initiate it on their own.

Second off: The Aegis doesn't have the collective's ability to use maneuvers through the collective, so no. It's possible to heal them if they're still close enough, but they lack the range-extending ability the Zealot does.


Nowhere that I could find does any documentation I have read so far, detail that the benefits of the maneuver/stance/boost could be applied to psionic actions as well as the typically accepted physical ones of a martial class. So the benefit of a Zealot in a psionic army was unclear to me.

The first third of this is a complete word salad, and the next third is nonsense, so the last third seems to naturally follow. There is no such thing as a 'psionic action', so the fact there's nothing about how maneuvers interact with them is unsurprising.

[kalos72]

So a Zealot adds a new Aegis to his Collective of 5 other Aegiis.

The Zealot shares the Benediction boost via Echoes of Steel SU, now that Aegis can use that boost no? "Is your Inquisitor friend sitting around doing nothing with her swift action because she’s already activated her Judgment earlier? Grant her a timely Fear the Reaper to put her intimidate bonus to good use preventing damage to the party!"

If the Aegis can use the boost, and is part of the collective, why wouldn't that boost effect all of them like it would if the Zealot used it?

And why do people keep on commenting about me not ready the guide or the class, I have. And I am coming here to talk about how a Zealot could benefit a group of Aegis in combat. Symmetry.

I dont want to sound ungrateful but why are people busting my ass here, I am asking sensible questions that arent documented.

[Galacktic]

So a Zealot adds a new Aegis to his Collective of 5 other Aegiis.
Symmetry.


Symmetry means things aesthetically match on both sides with a dividing line - a perfect circle is symmetrical. You're looking for synergy and most of your questions are phrased in such a way that we have no idea what the ever living hell you're saying most of the time.

[Necroticplague]

The Zealot shares the Benediction boost via Echoes of Steel SU, now that Aegis can use that boost no?Correct.


If the Aegis can use the boost, and is part of the collective, why wouldn't that boost effect all of them like it would if the Zealot used it?
Because the Zealot isn't using it. The Aegis (the one initiating the maneuver), lacks the ability that the Zealot has to have maneuvers they initiate target the whole collective. here, i'll quote the relevant text:

A zealot can initiate certain maneuvers through his collective. If a zealot maneuver specifies one or more willing targets (or is harmless) and has a range greater than personal, he can initiate this maneuver on a member of his collective regardless of the range of the actual maneuver. All other non-range restrictions still apply. A zealot can initiate maneuvers in this way through their own collective. Nobody else can initiate maneuvers in this way, and even zealots can't initiate in this way as members of somebody else's collective.


And why do people keep on commenting about me not ready the guide or the class, I have. And I am coming here to talk about how a Zealot could benefit a group of Aegis in combat. Because your level of understanding seems to indicate that you have almost no comprehension of what's written in the class description. Therefore, we're being charitable and assuming you haven't read them, or at least haven't read them thoroughly. The alternative would be very rude assumption to hold, and even more to state aloud.

[kalos72]

Wow, not being sure of how a martial classes abilities would filter over to a psionic themed group and asking the question makes me stupid. Gotcha...

There is no "Martial Classes for Dummies" or "Martial Classes and Psionics: A Beginners Guide." And nothing in Castoilonium's guide mentions psionic abilities or powers specifically.

But thanks for the help.

[jindra34]

Kalos part of your problem is assuming DISCRETE sub-systems have any interaction outside of keyword checks. And then not even understanding the terminology, so you can't even check keywords yourself. That is whats causing you to come of as stupid. And the proper place to fix that is to read up on the subsystems in the books they were introduced in.

[kalos72]

Sorry jindra, I dont even know what you are trying to say other than my autocorrecting synergy with symmetry...I get that.

But when I ask for input, go read the guide isn't helping. I asked if a Zealot would fit well in a psionic group and how, thats not in the guide.

There are three high level types of actions in my mind, physical as in a hit you with a sword or bow, magical as in spells and psionic I hit you with my mind. Are there RAW terms I should have been using when trying to ask if psionic attacks/powers, etc can affect a Zealots boosts?

I asked for creative input as well as basics system functionality...

But again, I dont want to seem ungrateful because some people actually helped. But it's frustrating to not know something and get "go read the book" or "You aren't even using the right terminology." If I KNEW I wasn't using the correct terminology, I would change it. Right?

Sorry, wasn't trying to ask stupid questions just trying to get some smarter people with more experience playing the class to help.

[Red Fel]

But again, I dont want to seem ungrateful because some people actually helped. But it's frustrating to not know something and get "go read the book" or "You aren't even using the right terminology." If I KNEW I wasn't using the correct terminology, I would change it. Right?

Sorry, wasn't trying to ask stupid questions just trying to get some smarter people with more experience playing the class to help.

The reason it feels like so many people are saying "go read the book" - which, admittedly, we are - is that many of your questions are answered directly by the text. By way of example:


So if a Zealot shares the Benediction boost with an Aegis in his collective via Echoes of Steel. That Aegis then makes a successful attack and heals the entire collective correct?

That's not how that works. Let's go through it again.

First, Zealot adds Aegis to his collective. Fine so far.

Second, Zealot shares a maneuver with Aegis via Echoes of Steel. Okay, so how does Echoes work? Per the text, the Zealot expends the maneuver, and then a member of the collective may use that maneuver until one minute passes or the Zealot recovers it. Pretty great.

So, how does Benediction of the Silver Crane work? First, keep in mind that Echoes of Steel grants a maneuver up to one level below your highest; since Benediction is an 8th-level maneuver, you need access to 9th-level maneuvers to grant it via Echoes. That means that Zealot can't even use Benediction until level 15, and can't share it via Echoes until level 17. So keep that in mind.

Now, Benediction is a Boost which, when tacked onto another attack, heals all allies within 30 feet. When the Aegis uses the maneuver, he uses it as-written. The maneuver itself says nothing about the Collective. Accordingly, when the Aegis uses the maneuver, it functions exactly and only as it is written, and heals allies within 30 feet.

The reason people are expressing dismay is that this doesn't seem terribly complicated. It feels like you're trying to read the maneuvers or powers together with the Zealot's class features, instead of on their own, and in doing so are conflating various effects or producing your own misunderstandings. What you need to do is step back and just read each piece that you are using, on its own. Don't think of it as the Zealot using a maneuver, or the effect on the Collective. Just read the text, and understand that. Things should be much more clear to you if you do that.

[kalos72]

Thank you Red.

I was trying to figure out ways to coordinate 2-3 different classes into an effective combat unit. I asked for thoughts on that effectiveness several times and only got., read the guide. The guide doesnt talk about psionis at all really, outside of PP.

Regarding the collective, if I was more educated about Collectives, I might have said just have the Aegis take a dip into a Collective class and now, when the Zealot uses Echoes to allow the Aegis to use Benediction, it would affect the whole Collective and not just the 30ft range. OR its easier to just have the Zealot use the boost since he affects the entire collective AND doesnt need another ability to make the healing love happen.

But I didnt think about that, being new to the whole concept.

Infact, Expanded Path of Way says: The maneuver becomes a known and readied maneuver for that ally, using the zealot’s initiator level and initiation modifier." Its not really hard to imagine the boost acting the same for one as the other given it becomes a readied maneuver for the Aegis now.

Also, the Guide and Ptah of War boom differ in the Benediction description, one has Collective notated and other only range 30ft. So I was getting contradictory information back as well.

I was looking for thoughts and ideas on ways to develop the team, not ONLY what the guide says. But again, after a day of this I understand now and have read and re-read the pertinent docs a dozen times now.

[Castilonium]

Hi, I'm the author of the Zealot guide :smallsmile: Everyone else has given you great info already, so I'll try to help you with your party idea.


That said, a caveat: Zealots don't get powers. At least, not intrinsically. They get power points. Now, thanks to Burning Contemplation, you can take psionic feats - such as Expanded Knowledge - and thereby gain specific powers - such as Psionic Blast. But you don't natively gain powers as a Zealot.

Just to clear up something here. Zealots gain power points, but "this effective manifester level does not make a zealot eligible for feats and prestige classes requiring a manifester level." Expanded Knowledge has a prerequisite of Manifester level 3rd, do single-classed Zealots can't get it.

I'm sure you know this, Red Fel, but I wanted to mention it lest kalos72 get the wrong idea.


Here is the scenario, we are working on a combat team of Aegiis, supported by Zealots, a Tactician leading them and possibly a Vitalist for additional healing. Or some combination thereof...

I wanted one of the collective to stay out of combat but still able to support the unit so they can use Ardent Legion power to summon the collective back out of danger OR summon in a new unit to the fight to replace/support the initial unit. This is the tricky part I think...

So one, the Zealot needs to do the fighting/attacking for the collective to gain any benefit, healing primarily.

The summoning maneuver you're looking for is Reunion in Dreams. It will do exactly what you need. You simply need to have a collective member at whatever location you want to teleport your allies to or from. Your psicrystal is great for this.

Since you've been looking at the 8th level maneuver Benediction of the Silver Crane, I'm going to assume that your party is at least 15th level. That's good, because that means your collective has an unlimited range on the same plane. The Zealot can sit safely at home and help her collective no matter where they are. All you need to do is have a way to know what's going on around your collective members. Telepathy helps, and within 1 mile, your psicrystal can relay info to you. You could buy a Third Eye (Sense) (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/universal-items/#TOC-Third-Eyes) to get a visual on them. Use the Strike of Unity conviction to deliver attacks via your collective members. If you don't have Strike of Unity or don't want to spend the PP, you can still heal your collective members with healing strikes by attacking an empty square. If your GM demands you attack a creature, punch your psicrystal. It has 8 hardness, you won't hurt it.

If you're not level 15+, get some Network Node Earrings from Steelforge 1 and give the other one to someone else with a collective who will be alongside the Aegii. That'll extend your collective range and you can still sit safe at home. While you're looking into long range collective support, you might like to look at adding a Thoughtsinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-options/bard/thoughtsinger/) Bard, Cherished Highlord, or Cultivation Highlord into the mix.

[kalos72]

Thank you Castilonium! Great guide! :)

After working through the Collective, I think I am ok with the Zealot being in combat and leading a group of Aegis as a squad leader.

I am planning on something like 5 Aegis, being led by a Zealot. Zealot creating a collective of the 5 Aegis he leads and at least one other Zealot Squad Leader. This way he can Ardent Legion or Reunion in Dreams the other squad leader to him. Then that squad leader can Ardent Legion his entire squad to him.

For battlefield movement I can move entire squads anywhere I want in 2 actions.

So any thoughts on strategy for the Zealot in the squad leader role here? Or gear/magic items that would be appropriate for the role?

The next level is 2 squads being led by a Tactician I think. Tactician creating a Collective of multiple Squad Leading Zealots...and something else. Not sure what other class/role should support the Tactician. Again moving Squad leaders around vis Ardent or Reunion to move squads of troops anywhere I want.

[Elricaltovilla]

I thought you looked familiar. You posted on here a while back about building a high level military using psionics/PoW didn't you?

I think that might be where a lot of confusion is coming from, because you haven't really explained what your overall objective is in this thread. There are a lot of specific things you are trying to do that are atypical for a zealot in a more standard party.

I think it might be a good idea to start from the top and work your way down. Once you have the full org chart for your army you can look at how to build each role within that army.

[kalos72]

Other then the AC spamming STP/Psion /constructor groups, these Aegis Squads are the primary combat team I will be working with.

I THINK Zealot has a home as Squad Leaders but I am open to other options as support for the Aegis Squad. Again, any thoughts on strats/gear/feats. etc, are very welcome.

Also, is there a Tactician Guide out there thats complete?

I can't really figure out anything past the Tactician, who leads 10 Aegis and 2 Zealots. What other then more PP would help the Tactician in supporting the squads?

Here is the original thread - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?560855-Psionic-Army-Design