Building a Gestalt Druid/Wizard in "3.P"

[ezekielraiden]

Well, I'm back for more gestalt shenanigans, the Int DruWizard again. This time, however, it's a blend of 3.5e and PF, leaning mostly toward PF ("where the two conflict, use PF") with some key exceptions here and there (like keeping 3.5e Polymorph). Game is meant for "playable" high-op, so going for great synergies and such is fine, but egregious abuse is frowned upon. For example, DMM Persist is explicitly approved, but Nightstick stacking is not. No Dragon magazine or 3rd party content, but all official Paizo and Wizards book content is available.

My overall build right now is:
Human (alternate racial traits: Focused Study, Heart of the Fields)
Side 1 -- Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 10/Druid 2
Side 2 -- Wizard [Exploiter] 5/Geomancer 10/Archmage 2
Flaws: Fussy, Love of Nature
Traits: Spark of Creation, Fate's Favored

I welcome any advice if people think a Druid archetype is worth taking. Most didn't seem all that great at first glance. My Exploiter exploits, for now, are Quick Study and Potent Magic. The former makes me almost a Sorcerer (and theoretically works on Druid spells, too!), while the latter can stack the CL boosters even higher (+2 from that, +1 from ioun stone, +1 magic tattoo, +1 Archmage, +4 bead of karma = +9 CL, for a total CL of 26 at level 17. An Extended, pool-buffed spell with hr/level duration now lasts 52 hours, and if I Sacred Geometry it I don't even spend a higher slot.) However, I could give up either or both of people think alternatives would be better.

I'm hoping to squeeze in some crafting cost reducers alongside generally sound choices. Usual 2 flaws, 2 traits (or 3 traits + a drawback), but flaws/drawbacks should be meaningful, not just free feats. Right now, the feats I'm considering are (asterisk is a prereq or build critical feat)...

1st: Academic Priest*
Flaw 1: Spell Focus (Conj)*
Flaw 2: Greensinger Initiate*
Human (Focused Study): Skill Focus (Spellcraft)*
3rd: Favored Prestige Class (Planar Shepherd)
5th: Natural Spell*
Wizard 5: Craft Wondrous Item*
7th: Sacred Geometry [Persist/Extend]
(Focused Study 8th): Skill Focus (K:Planes)
9th: Eldritch Heritage (Arcane, to get a valet familiar)
11th: Spell Focus (Trans)*
13th: Extraordinary Artisan
15th: Dragon Wild Shape (assuming I qualify)
(Focused Study 16th): Skill Focus (Craft TBD)
17th: ??? (accepting suggestions)

My first two High Arcana will be Reach and +1 CL.

Intended gear thus far:
prayer bead of karma, orange prism ioun stone, luckstone, blessed book, headband of intellect

I don't know any further specific items I should craft/buy. Probably an armillary amulet for the spellcraft boost. I'm also considering an Ioun Wyrd with the Valet archetype as a familiar, but will gladly take suggestions.

[Recherché]

Take a look at Menhir Savant (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo-druid-archetypes/menhir-savant/) for druid archetypes. It gives up pretty much nothing valuable for a nice caster level boost and free long distance transports. Ask your DM over whether it boosts caster level in general or just druid caster level and about how caster level boosts stack though.

[ezekielraiden]

Take a look at Menhir Savant (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo-druid-archetypes/menhir-savant/) for druid archetypes. It gives up pretty much nothing valuable for a nice caster level boost and free long distance transports. Ask your DM over whether it boosts caster level in general or just druid caster level and about how caster level boosts stack though.

Excellent find. I have followed your advice to get clarity on this. Since I have maxed Geomancer it seems like they should stack, but being forthright and asking is always good.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can't combine two prestige classes at any character level on a gestalt character, it's built into the base gestalt rules.

[lylsyly]

You can't combine two prestige classes at any character level on a gestalt character, it's built into the base gestalt rules.

Unless a course the DM approves of it. We play that way in my group all the time.

[ezekielraiden]

You can't combine two prestige classes at any character level on a gestalt character, it's built into the base gestalt rules.

That is correct, however...


Unless a course the DM approves of it. We play that way in my group all the time.

...the DM has expressly approved taking two PrCs at the same level. I haven't asked if there are rules about dual-progression classes, since I'm not taking any (Geomancer *requires* two, but only advances one at a time.)

I do very much appreciate the effort to keep me honest though. I have made prerequisite mistakes and other errors before, so it's good to make sure I haven't run afoul of a rule I forgot or failed to apply correctly.

[Quertus]

You can't combine two prestige classes at any character level on a gestalt character, it's built into the base gestalt rules.


Unless a course the DM approves of it. We play that way in my group all the time.

You know, I was just thinking of writing a thread to ask if people actually played with that rule. Sounds like the answer is "sometimes".

[OgresAreCute]

You know, I was just thinking of writing a thread to ask if people actually played with that rule. Sounds like the answer is "sometimes".

"Ladies and gentlemen, it looks like our next combatant has arrived! Does the Vault Hunter have what it takes to survive the Appetite for Destruction round? I think we all know the answer: MAAAAAAAYBEEEE!"

[ezekielraiden]

"Ladies and gentlemen, it looks like our next combatant has arrived! Does the Vault Hunter have what it takes to survive the Appetite for Destruction round? I think we all know the answer: MAAAAAAAYBEEEE!"

Mister Torgue is always welcome commentary in my threads. +1 Torgue point, if you take them.

[Rebel7284]

First a disclaimer, I am not super familiar with Pathfinder.

Is Geomancer a big part of your build? With Academic Priest already making your SAD (except for save DCs, but many of druid's best spells are buffs and summons...) It seems a bit of a waste. Sure pounce/improved grab/fly speed in all forms is nice, but you are taking 10 levels in a prestige class for these abilities that can typically be obtained with just 1-2 spells (of which you have so many!) The opportunity cost is missing out on things like Incantatrix/Dweomerkeeper/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil/War Weaver/Spelldancer(you even have Perform as a class skill!)/etc or, if dual progression classes are allowed, something like Arcane Hierophant//Warshaper or Arcane Hierophant//Factotum.

What plane are you taking with Planar Shepherd?

In general, builds like this have tons of things they can do, but only so many actions to do it. One way to optimize that would be taking a class that gives you extra actions. Swiftblade and Factotum are both great for that. Aberration Wildshape can also give you extra actions and hence is a bit better than Dragon Wildshape.

Druid 5/Arcane Hierophant 1/Planar Shepherd 2/AH +1/PS +2/AH+1/PS +4
(Fighter Feat) Wizard 5/Swiftblade 9/Spelldancer or Archmage or Incantatrix 3

Even if Arcane Hierophant is not allowed, there is that feat chain in Pathfinder that recovers caster progression.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm hoping to squeeze in some crafting cost reducersYou take Bestow Curse as a spell known.

Seriously.

You're using Pathfinder, so take a look at the Intentionally Crafting Cursed Items (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/cursed-items/#Intentionally_Crafting_Cursed_Items) rules.
Intentionally crafting cursed items requires the same item creation feats and skill checks as does crafting a normal item of that type, but in addition to such requirements, intentionally cursed items require bestow curse or major curse as a spell prerequisites. Crafting cursed items is generally cheaper than creating fully functional items, depending on the type of curse involved, as detailed below. The table above indicates the price and spell prerequisites of some of the most common deliberately created cursed items.

Delusion: Cost is reduced by 90%.

Drawbacks and Requirements: Cost isn’t reduced for cosmetic drawbacks or requirements with no direct game effects. Cost may be reduced by 10% for minor drawbacks or requirements such as minimum skill ranks or worship of a specific deity; by 30% for harmful or costly drawbacks or requirements such as alignment change, ability damage, sacrificing wealth, or performing a quest to activate the item; or by 50% for severe drawbacks or requirements such as negative levels or sacrificing sentient creatures.

Intermittent Functioning: The cost of uncontrolled or unreliable items is reduced by 10%. The cost of dependent items, which function only in certain situations, is reduced by 30%.

Opposite Effect or Target: Cost is reduced by 50%.(Emphasis added)

Check out the underlined stuff. You're making your own personal equipment, so anything that's fine for you is fine.
"Character must have a minimum number of ranks in a particular skill." is on the "requirement" table, and is an example of a 10% discount.
"Intermittent functioning" is explicitly a 30% discount... and "Within 10 feet of an arcane spellcaster" will always be true for things you're wearing.
"Character must make a Will save each day or take 1 point of Charisma damage." is also 30%, and is annoying... but item save DC's are laughable, you've got a good Will save, and can easily prepare a few copies of Lesser Restoration.

So with things you can mostly ignore by writing an extra spell or two into your buff list, you've got two 30% discounts and a 10% discount, pure Paizo RAW. Talk to your DM about whether it uses "number math" (30% discount + 30% discount + 10% discount = 0.7 * 0.7 * 0.9 = 0.441 = 44.1% of normal costs) or "pathfinder math" (30% discount + 30% discount + 10% discount = 70% discount). And... that's just one from each category. You're both a divine and an arcane spellcaster, and you're a humanoid. Can you take two or three instances of intermittent functioning? "Within ten feet of an arcane caster" and "within ten feet of a divine caster" will both always be true when you're holding them, for instance.

[ezekielraiden]

First a disclaimer, I am not super familiar with Pathfinder.

That's okay. I'm still re-learning things (e.g. Int is retroactive for skill points!)


Is Geomancer a big part of your build?

I'd really like to keep it unless something egregiously wrong with it comes up. It's something I've wanted to see in action for a long time, and (with Menhir Savant and Sacred Geometry) it sort of defines the fluff of the build: a true academic who sees the underlying connections in all things, natural and magical alike. I also have some custom drift ideas because my intent is to make the character slowly more dragon-like in appearance; I know that's not strictly powerful, but I'm

Since I'm taking Archmage and Exploiter (which doesn't give bonus slots), I'll actually end up with less spells than I might otherwise have--Druid will probably be picking up some slack at 5th and 7th level, where a lot of the best High Arcana picks (


What plane are you taking with Planar Shepherd?

Presuming it's allowed, Celestia. I don't like the BS time shenanigans of planes like Dal Quor, nor would I expect them to be allowed since the setting is in fact Golarion. (That's why I'm not sure Celestia will be allowed.)


In general, builds like this have tons of things they can do, but only so many actions to do it. One way to optimize that would be taking a class that gives you extra actions. Swiftblade and Factotum are both great for that. Aberration Wildshape can also give you extra actions and hence is a bit better than Dragon Wildshape.

Yeah, action economy is a concern. Metamagic rods of Quickening will help there, but it seems like a lot of effort (and lost caster levels) to squeeze in much else.


Druid 5/Arcane Hierophant 1/Planar Shepherd 2/AH +1/PS +2/AH+1/PS +4
(Fighter Feat) Wizard 5/Swiftblade 9/Spelldancer or Archmage or Incantatrix 3

Even if Arcane Hierophant is not allowed, there is that feat chain in Pathfinder that recovers caster progression.

I'm sure this would be stronger than what I've got, but...yeah I've wanted to have a Geomancer-using Gestalt build for a good 4-5 years now, so I'm not gonna be easily persuaded to part with it. I truly appreciate the advice, though. Knowing when I'm turning down power is just as important as knowing what power to seek.

[ezekielraiden]

Any equipment suggestions? That seems to be the area of least agreement between most of the advice sources I've found. That and the value of the Fly skill; some rate it garbage-tier, others max it!

[Recherché]

The Fly skill really depends on how much the GM enforces it. Some mostly ignore the skill and some call for it more often. That being said the more effects you're throwing around that create wind and bad weather, the higher you'll need the skill to keep flying through your own effects.

Items, hmmm, do you know about silken ceremonial armor (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/armor/silken-ceremonial-armor/)? It's a light non-metal armor with an spell failure chance of 0 and acp of 0, so it's perfect for wizards to use as a base for enchanting armor.

A Robe of runes (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/robe-of-runes/) works well for almost any spellcaster. Alternatively if you really want to boost Caster level sky high you could also grab this Robe (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/robes-of-xin-shalast/) instead. Oh and of course the Otherworldly Kimono (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/kimono-other/) is also great for caster level boosts

The mask of a thousand times (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/mask-of-a-thousand-tomes) is mostly useful if you can compensate for blindness but if you can it's fun. Similarly Cheating Gloves (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gloves-apprentice-s-cheating) aren't powerful but they are fun and cheap