Short rest resources and encounter powers

[clash]

What if instead of having the short rest and short rest dependent classes you went back to 1/encounter powers (5 minute short rest) and just gave half as many resources. For example, a warlock would get 1 spell slot/encounter instead of 2/short rest. He would have less nova power but at the gain of no longer needing short rests if the rest of the party doesnt use them. It still wouldn't balance the 5MWD but it would keep the feel of the warlock more than making them long rest dependent. What do people think?

[JakOfAllTirades]

The Warlock works alright for me as is; my group takes short rests whenever someone in the party needs one.

They're considerate that way.

[Misterwhisper]

The Warlock works alright for me as is; my group takes short rests whenever someone in the party needs one.

They're considerate that way.

I would call that a very considerate dm.

[PhoenixPhyre]

What if instead of having the short rest and short rest dependent classes you went back to 1/encounter powers and just gave half as many resources. For example, a warlock would get 1 spell slot/encounter instead of 2/short rest. He would have less nova power but at the gain of no longer needing short rests if the rest of the party doesnt use them. It still wouldn't balance the 5MWD but it would keep the feel of the warlock more than making them long rest dependent. What do people think?

You'd then have the problem that 4e ran into--burn your encounter power first, then do at-wills. It turns out to be so predictable that it lacks the tactical elements that lots of people enjoy.

With the present system, sometimes you can get away with burning both slots up front. Other times you can't.

This goes double for things that are already 1x/SR (like Second Wind). Warlocks aren't the only class with SR resources. Most have them, in fact, not even counting spending HD for healing.

And you run into the problem of defining an encounter in a way that makes any kind of fictional sense.

Take the following case: three groups of monsters, one after another.

At one end, we have the "obviously 1 encounter" case: all three groups attack before any one group is finished off.

At the other end we have the "obviously multiple encounters": there is a span of hours between groups.

But what about in the middle? What if there's only a round (6 seconds) of no enemies on the field? Is that too short? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? where's the obvious line at which you can say "ok, you get your stuff back."

[Unoriginal]

What if instead of having the short rest and short rest dependent classes you went back to 1/encounter powers and just gave half as many resources. For example, a warlock would get 1 spell slot/encounter instead of 2/short rest. He would have less nova power but at the gain of no longer needing short rests if the rest of the party doesnt use them. It still wouldn't balance the 5MWD but it would keep the feel of the warlock more than making them long rest dependent. What do people think?

I think that this is 5e, not 4e.

Powers don't just regenerate because the encounter ended. You have to make a conscious choice to stop and rest, because an encounter is just part of the day (which continues during and after the encounter), it's not a separate narrative space.

That is a big thematic shift between the two editions, and I for one much prefer the 5e way.

[Eragon123]

I think a bit more elegant middle ground is to shorten the duration of short rests. Or maybe some scaling length. So the first short rest is a scant 5 minutes but the next is 10 followed by 20. Or whatever scaling works for you.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think a bit more elegant middle ground is to shorten the duration of short rests. Or maybe some scaling length. So the first short rest is a scant 5 minutes but the next is 10 followed by 20. Or whatever scaling works for you.

Shorter short rests (depending on the circumstances) work. As does the following:

1. Making it clear that the world does not stop when you rest.
2. Providing clear times when short rests make sense in your narrative/dungeon flow. Even in a military campaign there are breaks--the unofficial slogan of the army is "hurry up and wait" for a reason.
3. Spreading damage around. Instead of trying to murder one player character (as efficient and "optimized" as that is), hit a bunch of them and make them use resources. This will reduce the "I'm fine" issue with taking short rests.
4. If necessary, enforce a (perfectly reasonable) house rule that you can't benefit from more than one long rest in any 20-ish hour period. There's slop there to account for a late/early start, but you can't just turn around and go back to bed after fighting for 5 minutes after a successful long rest. Yes, you could sit around for another 16-ish hours, but see #1. Most groups are loath to burn an entire day like that if they know that things change around them.
5. Consistently do 1-3. If you merely say it, they'll see through it soon enough. Consistently give them changing environments where there are breaks in the action. Consistently put them in positions to spend SR resources (including HD), knowing they'll get them back.

[Baptor]

I highly recommend reading the Angry GM's article: Hitting the Rest Button.

It really helped me to understand the rest mechanic in more depth and how to make adjustments to it.

[clash]

I highly recommend reading the Angry GM's article: Hitting the Rest Button.

It really helped me to understand the rest mechanic in more depth and how to make adjustments to it.

I actually have read it, and while I think he provides great insight and is good at getting down to the nitty gritty, I disagree with most of his conclusions on how to run things.

Bottom line is even as a dm I hate player class mechanics that are so entirely dependent on all the other players and the dm buying into your class. Classes that are short rest dependent always seem to have that problem.

As to the 5 minute short rest, sure I love that idea. Lets edit the thread with that. So what do people think of changing a short rest to 5 minutes and halving the amount of resources you get during one so you can effectively have those resources back every combat?

[Crgaston]

I actually have read it, and while I think he provides great insight and is good at getting down to the nitty gritty, I disagree with most of his conclusions on how to run things.

Bottom line is even as a dm I hate player class mechanics that are so entirely dependent on all the other players and the dm buying into your class. Classes that are short rest dependent always seem to have that problem.

As to the 5 minute short rest, sure I love that idea. Lets edit the thread with that. So what do people think of changing a short rest to 5 minutes and halving the amount of resources you get during one so you can effectively have those resources back every combat?

As a Warlock and Fighter fan, I don't like the idea of halving. What's half an action surge?

Also, having only one spell slot sounds terrible. I want to be able to use Synaptic Static or Thunder Step while I'm Invisible or concentrating on a summons or Hex even. It would further increase the divide between Warlocks and other casters, especially in a 1 encounter day.

[Garfunion]

Bottom line is even as a dm I hate player class mechanics that are so entirely dependent on all the other players and the dm buying into your class. Classes that are short rest dependent always seem to have that problem.
I agree with this. While it was fine in 4e, I feel that it is an annoying mechanic in 5e.

An idea that I’ve thought about is to put the “encounter” abilities on a daily charge resources. During a standard adventuring day, the player character has a chance to use an encounter ability three times throughout the day. I would give the encounter ability 2 daily charges, following it up with a minute of rest per use.

For example;
The fighter’s Action Surge can be used twice per day. However after using an action surge, you can’t do so again until after a minute has passed (most battles do not go past a minute).

As for the warlock, it would have to be redesign.

[MilkmanDanimal]

Bottom line is even as a dm I hate player class mechanics that are so entirely dependent on all the other players and the dm buying into your class. Classes that are short rest dependent always seem to have that problem.

So many classes are functionally short rest dependent in all sorts of ways that I've never found it an issue. Bards after level 5 get Inspiration dice back on a short rest. Clerics get Channel Divinity, Druids get Wild Shape, Fighters have Action Surge, Monks get Ki, Warlocks get spells, Wizards can do Arcane Recovery. While some classes (Monks and Warlocks in particular) get more out of short rests than most, taking a short rest is fundamental to all sorts of the abilities of various classes.

[Damon_Tor]

I think that this is 5e, not 4e.

Powers don't just regenerate because the encounter ended. You have to make a conscious choice to stop and rest, because an encounter is just part of the day (which continues during and after the encounter), it's not a separate narrative space.

That is a big thematic shift between the two editions, and I for one much prefer the 5e way.

Point of fact, encounter powers required a short rest, which was 5 minutes in 4th edition.

I don't disagree with your overall premise, mind.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I would call that a very considerate dm.

That would be separate issue. I've seen a number of threads on this board regarding conflict between short-rest players (warlocks in particular) and their majority long-rest parties who simply refused to let them take a short rest even when it was safe, and they had the time. They just didn't feel like doing it. I've never understood this way of thinking; they're deliberately hobbling one member of their group for no reason. "Okay, we take a short rest" takes a few seconds of table time, maybe a minute of bookkeeping. Done.

If the DM rules that a short rest would be risky, alright then, the group has a decision to make. Maybe they shouldn't do it.

[Citan]

Hi!

Honestly, I wouldn't change anything myself, but the people I play with are usually considerate enough (I'll daresay "simply smart enough") to make do with everyone's needs and adapt.

This allows 100% short-rest classes like Monk or Warlock to still be playable in gritty adventures, while also still having great moments of glory in non-combat situations where short rests are easy to get (read: overall peaceful environment and no definite time pressure, like just arriving in a new city and grabbing info or trying to build influence).

If you really want to avoid the discrepancy, from every similar thread I read so far, the easiest way, with the least pitfall, is rather to convert every short-rest resource in a long one, by multiplying it by 2 at least, 3 if you really wanna stick to the guidelines.

It will dramatically increase the nova potency of Monks and Warlocks from level 1 to 20, so they will become extremely powerful for 5-mn day adventures, but on the other hand, they lose the potential to use insane "amount of power" over a day whenever circumstances would allow to take 3, 4, or 5 short rests in a single day. Apart from 4E and Shadow, Monks had little Ki-reliant utility in the first place, but Warlock's spell are another matter entirely (Comprehend Languages, Suggestion, Mass Suggestion, Dream, etc).

[BobZan]

I use the 2 sr a day + 1 lr every 24h. Short Rests take 5 min, Long Rests 8h. All party has to benefit from a short rest at the same time, so they have to get the best of it as a party.

If they want to rest after first party, it's ok. I give them this resource and decision making. After 2nd rest, they can't benefit from a short rest before they take a long rest.

[Theodoxus]

I use the 2 sr a day + 1 lr every 24h. Short Rests take 5 min, Long Rests 8h. All party has to benefit from a short rest at the same time, so they have to get the best of it as a party.

If they want to rest after first party, it's ok. I give them this resource and decision making. After 2nd rest, they can't benefit from a short rest before they take a long rest.

I do this as well. (though SR are 10 minutes).

The other thing I did was convert a number of SR recharges to Recharge when you roll initiative. I added feats that allow for other SR recharge to recharge when initiative is rolled.

And I allow Hit Dice to be used to recharge resources - each class gets a single class specific item for free (Paladin LoH (points restored equal HD amount rolled); Bard gets a Bardic Inspiration Die; etc. Then added a feat that lets them spend more HD on a "breather", and a feat tax to let them spend a HD to recharge a LR resource.