Treantmonk evaluates 7th level spells

[Treantmonk]

My new spell evaluation video is here (https://youtu.be/jpRKKvHvEDI).

I hope you enjoy it.

[Xihirli]

I guess knowledge just stopped being power.

[MaxWilson]

My new spell evaluation video is here (https://youtu.be/jpRKKvHvEDI).

I hope you enjoy it.

You're underrating Regenerate. It's niche, sure, but it still effectively turns you into a troll for an hour, with no concentration requirement--as long as you're not dead, you always pop back up to 1 HP at the beginning of your turn. It's equivalent to always rolling 20 on your death saves, with some out-of-combat healing on the side.

If you're fighting an Ancient Red Dragon and it breathes fire on the party for 90+ HP of damage and knocks the paladorc and the wizard both down to 0 HP, Regenerate may be the difference between winning that fight and losing. Both characters will lose concentration on any spells they're maintaining (in this sense, Death Ward is superior to Regenerate, though you can of course stack them), but if you've got Regenerate on one or both of them they will still get to act: smiting, blessing, Forcecage-ing, using up legendary resistances, controlling pre-cast illusions, commanding Tiny Servants, whatever. Sure, they're at 1 HP each, but a Paladorc with "only" one HP but still full spell slots is still pretty resilient: even if the dragon has a couple of hill giants and a handful of orcs fighting with him, it will be hard to put the Paladin down (Shield = AC 26, and you have to hit him enough to kill him or he'll just pop right back up again next round anyway), and the same thing goes for the wizard if he's bothered to invest in armor proficiency through some means. Regenerate helps you keep the situation under control--it's panic insurance for helping you win fights that you might otherwise lose.

Regenerate would be trash if it were a 1-minute (concentration) spell, but as a 1-hour spell (no concentration needed) it's definitely got its uses, especially for a Bard or Druid who doesn't have native access to Death Ward.

Like Death Ward, though, Regenerate shines brightest in campaigns which do feature fights you might lose. If the DM takes responsibility for not letting the players TPK, Regenerate is redundant.

[Zuras]

Project Image isn’t a powerful spell in combat, but it’s advantage is the 500 mile range. It and Regenerate are more handy out of combat.

The ability to project an image for a meeting or something can be very handy, but it’s more of a “plot” spell than a combat spell.

[MaxWilson]

Project Image isn’t a powerful spell in combat, but it’s advantage is the 500 mile range. It and Regenerate are more handy out of combat.

The ability to project an image for a meeting or something can be very handy, but it’s more of a “plot” spell than a combat spell.

Interesting side note: Portent works on anything you can see, so a patron diviner with Project Image would be able to help the party out significantly in tough battles, without any risk to himself or herself.

[Corran]

About regenerate, I was thinking something close to what Max says. Basically, that it has the potential to improve the party's overall action economy. It's very different to be able to take an action than to roll a death save, particularly at high levels when you can do powerful things with that action. And since this probably triggers when a fight is not going all that well (which is what makes that spell situational), all the more power to it (meaning to the effect of improving action economy, the spell is still situational). I mean, it's not a really great spell and I am not familiar with most other options it has to compete with, but when you expect a tough fight within the next 1 hour, I would say that it's not a de facto bad choice (or at least not that bad to make the top 3; unless all other 7th level spells are better? I need to look at them again). Thinking of this spell made me think what Treantmonk said on his previous video about contingency. Namely about combining contingency with a ring of spell storing and revivify (from an ally). This spell is not all that different. It's probably worse overall, simply because you have to use your 7th level spell slot for the day, as the contingency + revivify can be easily set up during a previous day. But on the other hand this is ongoing for an hour and better yet, you can choose a target different than yourself. Again, not that great, but I would think that there would be worse ways to spend your 7th level spell slots. For example, I would think that regenerate is more useful (even as a contingency that we are fortunate enough to almost never have to use) than a delayed blast fireball.

Have someone cast regenerate on you. Then approach an unarmed commoner, give them a heavy melee weapon, and dare them to try and kill you with it, as you sit on the ground doing nothing. I bet they will be exhausted before the hour passes.

[dejarnjc]

*SNIP*

HAH! Speaking of Regenerate silliness. Try combining the regenerate spell with the shapechange spell. Here's the scenario. Warning, it's kind of stupid.


- Have Resilient (CON)... can also have Warcaster for guaranteed success.
- Cast Regenerate on Self.
- Cast Shapechange on Self (Hydra).
- Have allied party members deal between 25 and 35 dmg in a single turn once every 90 seconds or so. (A friendly DM would probably rule that you could allow your party members to auto-decapitate with saaaayy two slashes of a greatsword [12.5 dmg each attack making concentration saves a sure thing])
- Grow an extra head every 90 seconds or so whilst healing from Hydraness and Regenerate.
- After 45 minutes have 35ish heads.
- Drink potion of Storm Giant Strength for more silliness.
- Go attack big bad with 35 attacks on your first turn for 367.5 damage (183.75 if only half hit). 507.5 w/ storm giant strength (253.75 if only half hit)
- Cry when DM tells you the Big Bad is immune to non-magical attacks.

[LudicSavant]

Hooray! Videos! :smallbiggrin:

Goes to watch

Content summary for people's convenience:

Worst Spells
3) Prismatic Spray
2) Regenerate
1) Mordenkainen's Sword

Best Spells
3) Plane Shift
2) Forcecage
1) Simulacrum

Overrated Spells
3) Project Image
2) Finger of Death
1) Delayed Blast Fireball

Underrated Spells
3) Conjure Celestial
2) Etherealness
1) Divine Word


I agree with a lot of these.

On Worst: Prismatic Spray is a pale shadow of its past edition glory. Mordenkainen's Sword is a joke (insert "I'm just a very bad wizard" gif of Mordenkainen).

On Best: Plane Shift changes the entire way you can interact the setting. Forcecage just straight up wins against a huge number of things and is troublesome to deal with even for the things that have counters to it. Simulacrum is just insane.

On Overrated: Finger of Death's only real redeeming value is that the zombie is under your control permanently, so you can make a zombie army if you have more free time than you know what to do with. It's a downtime spell to kill peasants as an evil overlord. Bleh. Delayed Blast Fireball is basically just to make a finnicky trap card.

On Underrated: Etherealness is good, and Divine Word is great. I'm glad to see that you read the bottom part! It drives me crazy when people rate this spell without reading the bottom part. It's like some people think that whatever's written first or takes the longest to describe has to be the main use of the spell.


I don't really agree with Regenerate though. How else should I go about restoring all of my limbs? Is there a handier spell for that floating around? In addition to having that little situational function in my back pocket as a "I know all my spells for no opportunity cost" type (e.g. Cleric/Druid), it's got 4d8+615 hp regeneration over its duration, and can pick people up off the death gate in combat without using an in-combat action. And while you make a point about multiple attacks, high level characters can layer their death gates, and also it aids with action economy. It's certainly better than Prismatic Spray!

Also, your video says "4d8+30 healing" but I'm seeing 4d8+15 in my PHB. Did I miss something?

Another iffy one is Conjure Celestial, where you don't get to choose the celestial you get, so you can't choose to get a Couatl. :smallfrown:


I guess knowledge just stopped being power.

Yeah! You have to say that Knowledge is Power! :smalltongue:

Edit: Oh yeah, just to really drive the nails into the coffin more about just how bad a Wizard Mordenkainen is, check out "Crown of Stars," also a 7th level spell. It's like Mordenkainen's Sword, but with more damage and range, a ribbon effect, and lasts an hour without Concentration instead of a minute with Concentration.

[MaxWilson]

Have someone cast regenerate on you. Then approach an unarmed commoner, give them a heavy melee weapon, and dare them to try and kill you with it, as you sit on the ground doing nothing. I bet they will be exhausted before the hour passes.

I bet they will be traumatized and come away with psychological issues before the hour passes. :-)


HAH! Speaking of Regenerate silliness. Try combining the regenerate spell with the shapechange spell. Here's the scenario. Warning, it's kind of stupid.


- Have Resilient (CON)... can also have Warcaster for guaranteed success.
- Cast Regenerate on Self.
- Cast Shapechange on Self (Hydra).
- Have allied party members deal between 25 and 35 dmg in a single turn once every 90 seconds or so. (A friendly DM would probably rule that you could allow your party members to auto-decapitate with saaaayy two slashes of a greatsword [12.5 dmg each attack making concentration saves a sure thing])
- Grow an extra head every 90 seconds or so whilst healing from Hydraness and Regenerate.
- After 45 minutes have 35ish heads.
- Drink potion of Storm Giant Strength for more silliness.
- Go attack big bad with 35 attacks on your first turn for 367.5 damage (183.75 if only half hit). 507.5 w/ storm giant strength (253.75 if only half hit)
- Cry when DM tells you the Big Bad is immune to non-magical attacks.


Hooray, a new use for Healing Spirit! Combine Shapechange with Extended Healing Spirit IV or so to grow 40 additional heads in two minutes.

Round 1: Fighter buddy inflicts 25ish HP of damage (GWM for ~22 + extra unarmed punches if necessary to push it to 25), kills a head. Another fighter or thief buddy does similar (can use readied actions if necessary to coordinate multiple PCs) to kill another head. Hydra heals ~10.5 HP from Healing Spirit IV, then at the end of its turn grows 4 new heads and regains 40 HP. Net change: +2 heads.

Round 2-20: +2 more heads each round.

[Treantmonk]

I don't really agree with Regenerate though. How else should I go about restoring all of my limbs?
This got mentioned on the video comments too. Is this happening to a lot of PC's? I generally don't see PC's losing limbs (unless they are cutting off their own eye and hand to try to attach a withered eye and hand that turn out to NOT be the eye and hand of Vecna. That's a bad day)


Also, your video says "4d8+30 healing" but I'm seeing 4d8+15 in my PHB. Did I miss something?
Nope, I rushed this video as I'm in Las Vegas on vacation this week and wanted a release, but I see I made a few dumb errors I didn't catch.


Another iffy one is Conjure Celestial, where you don't get to choose the celestial you get, so you can't choose to get a Couatl. :smallfrown:
There is only one CR4 Celestial. However, yes, as we talked about before, a smeghead DM can choose a lower CR creature instead. Those DM's should test their brakes before driving home.

[Treantmonk]

You're underrating Regenerate. It's niche, sure, but it still effectively turns you into a troll for an hour, with no concentration requirement--as long as you're not dead, you always pop back up to 1 HP at the beginning of your turn. .

Yes, thinking about it more, I probably did.

[Draken]

An unusual time when I would personally want to swap Regeneration and Delayed Blast Fireball's positions.

Delayed Blast Fireball, I should note, is literally just a fireball scaled up to level 7 at its most basic. So if it doesn't get its charging it is literally just ending your concentration on something possibly meaningful and eating a preparation slot. As a *minor* bonus to it compared to treantmonk's commentary for it, DBF cannot actually be used against you, because it explodes the moment you stop concentrating on it and you can stop concentrating on it the moment someone you don't like passes the save to pick it up.

And we can all agree that the concentration for bonus damage isn't worth it. So it is a fireball with downsides.

Regeneration has that whack-a-mole value (until something with multiattack decides it would rather bash you dead) and it does have that regrow lost limbs value, which I am sure would be great if only mutilation effects were included anywhere in 5th or 3rd edition rather than being a completely ad-hoc or homebrewed effect. So I dare say it was overrated by the developers themselves.

[LudicSavant]

This got mentioned on the video comments too. Is this happening to a lot of PC's? I generally don't see PC's losing limbs (unless they are cutting off their own eye and hand to try to attach a withered eye and hand that turn out to NOT be the eye and hand of Vecna. That's a bad day)

It happens sometimes. But I'll also say that it doesn't have to happen a lot for it to be valuable to have as a power.

I've said this before, but I think one of the more common causes of experienced players underrating spells is because they get into the mindset of being a Wizard or Sorcerer and evaluate Cleric/Druid spells based on rules of thumb that don't really apply in the Cleric/Druid context. For a Sorcerer or Wizard, you might not want to learn a spell that only removes just one permanent status effect. For a Cleric or Druid, you don't have to learn that spell, or even prepare it until someone already has that status effect... but you'll be glad that you had it when it does come up. The very existence of Regeneration means that you have the power to solve severed body parts, at essentially zero risk; you don't have to prepare it until someone already lost their eyes or something.

It's not even just the ability to use it on your fellow PCs, you have the narrative power to go into town and cure the cripples that other people cannot cure precisely because it's a high level spell effect.


Nope, I rushed this video as I'm in Las Vegas on vacation this week and wanted a release, but I see I made a few dumb errors I didn't catch. Ah, okay then. :smallsmile:

[MaxWilson]

An unusual time when I would personally want to swap Regeneration and Delayed Blast Fireball's positions.

Delayed Blast Fireball, I should note, is literally just a fireball scaled up to level 7 at its most basic. So if it doesn't get its charging it is literally just ending your concentration on something possibly meaningful and eating a preparation slot. As a *minor* bonus to it compared to treantmonk's commentary for it, DBF cannot actually be used against you, because it explodes the moment you stop concentrating on it and you can stop concentrating on it the moment someone you don't like passes the save to pick it up.

And we can all agree that the concentration for bonus damage isn't worth it. So it is a fireball with downsides.

I think DBF is trash in 5E, but playing Devil's Advocate for a moment:

This thing you highlight here is potentially useful. If I were a wizard in a Vancian/Mazirian-the-Magician-type campaign where you didn't get free spells on level-up and had to find them in ruins instead, and if Delayed Blast Fireball were the only 7th level spell I knew, I would use it for soft area-denial. Two examples:

(1) My fighter buddies are in combat with a horde of orcs. I chuck a DBFB on top of them, and then as soon as they bogey on out of there on their turns I detonate it right on top of all the orcs. Compared to a regular Fireball, I get approximately the same number of orc casualties but no friendly fire problem.

(2) We're in the Mines of Moria and orcs are charging from all sides at the rate of 90' per round. I drop a DBFB where it looks like all the orcs are about to converge, but haven't yet. Compared to regular Fireball (readied action), I get to keep my reaction for Shielding, and if no orcs happen to hit the convergence point this round I haven't wasted a spell slot (by strict PHB RAW you cannot maintain a readied spell more than one round, though as DM I have no problem with that). In fact the Fireball even gets slightly more powerful in that scenario. Also if the orcs are converging on a slightly different point than I expected, the party Thief can reposition the Fireball onto the biggest clump of orcs.

It's still a terrible spell though, not worthy of the DBFB legacy.

[Docis]

You're underrating Regenerate. It's niche, sure, but it still effectively turns you into a troll for an hour, with no concentration requirement--as long as you're not dead, you always pop back up to 1 HP at the beginning of your turn. It's equivalent to always rolling 20 on your death saves, with some out-of-combat healing on the side.

If you're fighting an Ancient Red Dragon and it breathes fire on the party for 90+ HP of damage and knocks the paladorc and the wizard both down to 0 HP, Regenerate may be the difference between winning that fight and losing. Both characters will lose concentration on any spells they're maintaining (in this sense, Death Ward is superior to Regenerate, though you can of course stack them), but if you've got Regenerate on one or both of them they will still get to act: smiting, blessing, Forcecage-ing, using up legendary resistances, controlling pre-cast illusions, commanding Tiny Servants, whatever. Sure, they're at 1 HP each, but a Paladorc with "only" one HP but still full spell slots is still pretty resilient: even if the dragon has a couple of hill giants and a handful of orcs fighting with him, it will be hard to put the Paladin down (Shield = AC 26, and you have to hit him enough to kill him or he'll just pop right back up again next round anyway), and the same thing goes for the wizard if he's bothered to invest in armor proficiency through some means. Regenerate helps you keep the situation under control--it's panic insurance for helping you win fights that you might otherwise lose.

Regenerate would be trash if it were a 1-minute (concentration) spell, but as a 1-hour spell (no concentration needed) it's definitely got its uses, especially for a Bard or Druid who doesn't have native access to Death Ward.

Like Death Ward, though, Regenerate shines brightest in campaigns which do feature fights you might lose. If the DM takes responsibility for not letting the players TPK, Regenerate is redundant.

The first time that I agreed 100% with you.

I'm the legend, LordDrako.

[Master O'Laughs]

I by no means have an opinion on whether or not delayed blast fireball is good or bad. I always thought it would be fun though to use it in a basically RP way where you subtly (sorcerer) cast it under a metal bucket in a room/castle full of corrupt nobles and take them all out as you get away.

This would also be on a neutral/evil side of PCs but the idea sounded fun.

[Draken]

I think DBF is trash in 5E, but playing Devil's Advocate for a moment:

This thing you highlight here is potentially useful. If I were a wizard in a Vancian/Mazirian-the-Magician-type campaign where you didn't get free spells on level-up and had to find them in ruins instead, and if Delayed Blast Fireball were the only 7th level spell I knew, I would use it for soft area-denial. Two examples:

(1) My fighter buddies are in combat with a horde of orcs. I chuck a DBFB on top of them, and then as soon as they bogey on out of there on their turns I detonate it right on top of all the orcs. Compared to a regular Fireball, I get approximately the same number of orc casualties but no friendly fire problem.

(2) We're in the Mines of Moria and orcs are charging from all sides at the rate of 90' per round. I drop a DBFB where it looks like all the orcs are about to converge, but haven't yet. Compared to regular Fireball (readied action), I get to keep my reaction for Shielding, and if no orcs happen to hit the convergence point this round I haven't wasted a spell slot (by strict PHB RAW you cannot maintain a readied spell more than one round, though as DM I have no problem with that). In fact the Fireball even gets slightly more powerful in that scenario. Also if the orcs are converging on a slightly different point than I expected, the party Thief can reposition the Fireball onto the biggest clump of orcs.

It's still a terrible spell though, not worthy of the DBFB legacy.

I am pointing that out as a bonus of the spell's functionality as well. Treantmonk mentioned in the video that an enemy can just pick the spell up and use it against you with a save, I was pointing out that is not true.

[MaxWilson]

I am pointing that out as a bonus of the spell's functionality as well. Treantmonk mentioned in the video that an enemy can just pick the spell up and use it against you with a save, I was pointing out that is not true.

I know. I agree with you.

[Draken]

I know. I agree with you.

My apologies then, the way it was worded gave an impression of "yes, but" rather than an addition.

[MaxWilson]

My apologies then, the way it was worded gave an impression of "yes, but" rather than an addition.

Sorry about that. Wasn't my intention.

[Treantmonk]

As a *minor* bonus to it compared to treantmonk's commentary for it, DBF cannot actually be used against you, because it explodes the moment you stop concentrating on it and you can stop concentrating on it the moment someone you don't like passes the save to pick it up.

You are misrepresenting my commentary. This is literally what I said in the video without edits,
"That fireball, if something grabs it, and makes a Dex save, it can throw it and move it, so all the tactical advantages are gone."

I never said it could be used against you, nor implied it. What I said, clearly, was that if a creature moves the effect, you lose the tactical advantage of placement of effect.

[Sudsboy]

I've enjoyed your videos very much. I'm sure you caught it already, but you do get another 7th level spell slot at 20th level.

[Treantmonk]

I've enjoyed your videos very much. I'm sure you caught it already, but you do get another 7th level spell slot at 20th level.
Yes, that was the first comment the vid had.

Thank you!

[Draken]

You are misrepresenting my commentary. This is literally what I said in the video without edits,

I never said it could be used against you, nor implied it. What I said, clearly, was that if a creature moves the effect, you lose the tactical advantage of placement of effect.

Right, that was my bad then. It does remain that at the very least, you can chose to detonate it before it is relocated to an inconvenient spot.

I still think it deserves to swap places with Regenerate in your list.

[MaxWilson]

You are misrepresenting my commentary. This is literally what I said in the video without edits,

I never said it could be used against you, nor implied it. What I said, clearly, was that if a creature moves the effect, you lose the tactical advantage of placement of effect.

*scratches head*

But if it's an allied creature moving your Fireball, you are gaining even MORE advantage from letting them move it. And if it's an enemy creature moving it, you can detonate it instead of letting them move it. So I think I don't understand what you are trying to say here about losing tactical advantages.

Would you mind explaining in different words? Clearly I am missing something.

[Kane0]

Heh, I'm imagining the party rogue getting all excited because he gets handed a fully charged DFB to toss like a grenade.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Well, I too think Regenerate is better then you make it out to be. It says: One party member who is down can still take actions and soak attacks. After combat heal him to full HP. Seems decent to me. Especially since there are so few decent non-concentration spells at higher levels.

A topic that might be worth a video:
Good spells that do not require concentration. They are few and far in between and I think you have a tendency to underrate them. D&D's standard balance revolves about several encounters per long rest, but oftentimes the story allows for a tough, prepared fight. Most of the spells just allow you to do mediocre damage once your concentration spell is up. There are some decent control spells to cast though.

Some DMs will also let smart opponents try to break your concentration. Shield and Mirror Image can only carry you so far. In those cases it could be preferable to cast Transmute Rock (to Mud) for divide and conquer and then use your concentration on defense (e.g. Resilient Sphere). Transmute Rock is no Wall of Force, it is way more circumstantial, but opponents without flight still take two rounds to cross it at 40 speed even if they make their save. Not bad either.

[jiriku]

An unusual time when I would personally want to swap Regeneration and Delayed Blast Fireball's positions.

I would concur. "Stand up from dying without spending any actions" is a useful effect that's hard to get from a low-level spell, and the more I try to think about use cases for DBF the more I think it's just trash.

TM, perhaps when you get back from Vegas and have a little free time, you might splice in a few edits to revise this video. The quality of the commentary is good overall with a few opportunities for improvement. With a little polish it could really shine.

[Treantmonk]

Would you mind explaining in different words? Clearly I am missing something.

No worries, instead of using different words, I will elaborate on the words I used.

So, let's say you cast fireball. As a caster, you can choose exactly where that spell detonates. This is a tactical advantage as you can set it in the place that hurts the most enemies without harming any allies.

Now, it's significantly harder to take advantage of a delayed blast fireball's positioning, but not necessarily impossible. The enemies could be in an enclosed position, or blocked from movement by another effect, or blocked from movement by the party (for a few examples). In theory, this should allow the DBF to stew into a more deadly effect before detonating it.

Except with Delayed Blast Fireball, an enemy can simply pick up the effect and throw it out of that advantageous position (with a successful dex save). This means you either have to:
a) Detonate the fireball immediately, losing the damage advantage of having it build, or
b) lose the tactical advantage of having it placed where you would like it to be.

Now, the implication of the comment was that I was suggesting the DBF would be thrown back at the caster (who I guess is supposed to detonate it on themselves?). That of course would be absurd. In that case, the caster could simply retain concentration and throw it back again. This would turn into an unwinnable game of hot potato since the caster can detonate at any time they want.

Instead, an enemy would be more likely to simply throw the effect away. Maybe over a wall or into a well, or behind them, or just anywhere where it's not easily in reach and does not have a good position. Literally anywhere other than the place the effect was placed is likely tactically inferior for the caster (or they would have placed it there themselves).

As I said, this basically forces the caster to choose a or b above. Neither is good, and because of this, the spell becomes even harder to use effectively (and it was already plenty hard).

Is that more clear?

[MaxWilson]

Now, it's significantly harder to take advantage of a delayed blast fireball's positioning, but not necessarily impossible. The enemies could be in an enclosed position, or blocked from movement by another effect, or blocked from movement by the party (for a few examples). In theory, this should allow the DBF to stew into a more deadly effect before detonating it.

Except with Delayed Blast Fireball, an enemy can simply pick up the effect and throw it out of that advantageous position (with a successful dex save). This means you either have to:
a) Detonate the fireball immediately, losing the damage advantage of having it build, or
b) lose the tactical advantage of having it placed where you would like it to be.

...As I said, this basically forces the caster to choose a or b above. Neither is good, and because of this, the spell becomes even harder to use effectively (and it was already plenty hard).

Is that more clear?

Okay, that's pretty clear: you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you get more damage, or you detonate the spell in a tactically advantageous location at a tactically advantageous time. I consider the "more damage" case basically infeasible anyway, so it's not much of a loss. Anyway, it sounds like we all agree that you *can* position DBFB at least as well as a normal Fireball... and that isn't worth a 7th level slot and your concentration.

In fact I can only think of one case where DBFB would be more valuable than Wall of Fire VII, notwithstanding the slightly higher damage. That one case is anti-mage duty: toss a DBFB at the feet of a spell caster in order to detonate it as soon as he either casts a concentration spell or moves far enough to almost get out of the AoE. Instant DC 21ish Con save if he fails the Dex save. It's not a good spell even then, but that's the one case where it's better than Wall of Fire VII and Fireball VII both.

Incidentally this is also a rare case where War Wizard's Power Surge is actually meaningful: adding +8 damage or so makes it a DC 25 Con save.

[Zene]

Another great vid!

A note on Couatls: Besides all the great stuff you mentioned, they’re also immune to non-magical weapon damage. And can change shape into humanoids or beasts of cr4 or less.

Need to delay that army coming through the mountain pass? An invulnerable elephant that refuses to move will probably slow them down. Flying mount? Yep, it can morph into a quetzalcoatl and carry probably your whole party on its back.

If you don’t like its attacks, maybe have it change into an orc war chief. Still immune to non-magical weapons, still has its spellcasting. There’s probably some fun abilities it can cherry-pick off other humanoid forms, that I haven’t come across yet. Been meaning to do that research.

[Treantmonk]

but that's the one case where it's better than Wall of Fire VII and Fireball VII both.

Yikes. Generally blast spells should not be upcast, they lose potency quickly. Using a 7th level slot for either of these just makes me tear up.

[Draken]

All the more reason to move DBF into its rightful spot as just a bad spell!

[Deathtongue]

I know it's dodgy to rate spells just purely based on how one class uses it, but Whirlwind is absolutely devastating in the hands of an Evoker Wizard. It combines the best parts of Wall of Fire and Transmute Rock -- it's even worth readying an action just to move the Whirlwind out of the reach of the melee fighters when the victim's turn starts.

[dejarnjc]

I know it's dodgy to rate spells just purely based on how one class uses it, but Whirlwind is absolutely devastating in the hands of an Evoker Wizard. It combines the best parts of Wall of Fire and Transmute Rock -- it's even worth readying an action just to move the Whirlwind out of the reach of the melee fighters when the victim's turn starts.

Maybe it's just my game but I've found whirlwind to be decent but not particularly amazing as a druid. I feel like an upcast conjure animals would be better 90% of the time though. Right now I mostly use whirlwind against bosses with 22+ AC and ridiculous saves because half of 10d6 is better than nada.

[Tifeho]

Regeneration can turn a Divine Soul Sorcerer nearly unbeatiable for 1 hour.

[Deathtongue]

One thing I definitely do not like about Regenerate is how it all-but-encourages DMs to gank downed party members. I've already run into that problem with stuff like Mass Healing Word.

If I was going to use Regenerate, it'd be for something like a backline (because of the above caveat) Evoker Wizard using Overchannel. An Evoker with 14 CON and the tough feat would have 120 hp at level 15, which would let them (mostly) safely Overchannel 3 5th-level spells and 1 4th-level spell without worrying about dying from massive damage.

[Tifeho]

One thing I definitely do not like about Regenerate is how it all-but-encourages DMs to gank downed party members. I've already run into that problem with stuff like Mass Healing Word.

If I was going to use Regenerate, it'd be for something like a backline (because of the above caveat) Evoker Wizard using Overchannel. An Evoker with 14 CON and the tough feat would have 120 hp at level 15, which would let them (mostly) safely Overchannel 3 5th-level spells and 1 4th-level spell without worrying about dying from massive damage.

Wizard doesn't have Regenate Spell. I think.

[Deathtongue]

Wizard doesn't have Regenate Spell. I think.

Someone else will have to use it.

[Deathtongue]

I know it's technically a 6th-level spell, but you'll see why I waited until the 7th-level spell thread to bring this up:
Conjure Fey is one of those weird spells that is going to probably get worse as the game goes on due to that stupid Sage Advice ruling.

For example, right now, you can use an upcasted Conjure Fey for a Kerred or a Bheur Hag. Both of them are great additions. But the best thing about it is that unless the DM is specifically trying to screw you by assigning you, say, an elephant they don't have any choice but to give you one of those two.

[MaxWilson]

One thing I definitely do not like about Regenerate is how it all-but-encourages DMs to gank downed party members. I've already run into that problem with stuff like Mass Healing Word.

DMs who are tempted to do that out of dissatisfaction with the status quo should just rewrite the death save rules.

Death's Door (Negative HP rule variant): You make death saves each round you are at or below 0 HP, and you die at -100% of your max HP, and a failed death save costs you -20% of your max HP per failure but a single successful death save stabilizes you unless/until you take additional damage.

Voila! No more pop-up healing, and no more incentive for monsters and NPCs to learn to give things an extra whack "just in case." And no more weird discontinuity at 0 HP where damage suddenly ceases to matter. Damage is just damage, and the auto-crits against unconscious characters still give plenty of reason not to risk hitting 0 HP.

[Zuras]

Another great vid!

A note on Couatls: Besides all the great stuff you mentioned, they’re also immune to non-magical weapon damage. And can change shape into humanoids or beasts of cr4 or less.

Need to delay that army coming through the mountain pass? An invulnerable elephant that refuses to move will probably slow them down. Flying mount? Yep, it can morph into a quetzalcoatl and carry probably your whole party on its back.

If you don’t like its attacks, maybe have it change into an orc war chief. Still immune to non-magical weapons, still has its spellcasting. There’s probably some fun abilities it can cherry-pick off other humanoid forms, that I haven’t come across yet. Been meaning to do that research.

For best combat performance, Couatls change into Swashbucklers and add their Charisma to their AC.

Plus nobody looks at them funny, since they can look like the rest of the party.

[JellyPooga]

My issue with Plane Shift is that its sole use is to entirely change the dynamic of the game; opening up the vast multi-faceted aspects of the Planes...except it doesn't. When you cast this spell, it will either take you somewhere that the power of plot-device was probably going to take you anyway OR it's going to end the game session because the GM doesn't have any notes for whichever Plane took your fancy at the time of casting. It's not like Teleport, which can just shorten travel time (albeit with the option of changing the game, granted); Plane Shifts sole purpose is to completely and entirely change not only the location, but the core concept of the setting; from a grim-dark Prime to a light and airy Upper Plane, or from the relative stability of the Forgotten Realms to the ever-changing chaos of Limbo, among a myriad infinite of possibilities...that aren't going to happen because the GM needs prep for that kind of stuff and if he's prepped some plot to take you from one setting to another, then it's unlikely that he's not given you the capability of following said plot without using one specific spell that you might not decide to prepare. If no-one had even the capability of casting it, either the GM isn't going to prepare for the contingency of the party using it OR he's going to give you the capability to do so, by some means or another.

It's not a great spell; it's a plot device. It'd be like rating the current Plot-MacGuffin as one of the best items a party can have; it's not good because of what it can do, but because it's essential to the continuation of the game. Otherwise it's just a useless piece of pretty that appears to have greater value than it actually does.

[Pex]

Divine Word is good because it banishes more than one creature if they fail their saving throw? So can Banishment. Sorcerers can twin it as a 4th level spell. Increase the spell slot for additional targets. A 7th level Banishment can banish 4 creatures. Divine Word can banish more, but that's not a strike against Banishment. It is a lower level spell so naturally it shouldn't be as good as a 7th level spell. However, a check in Banishment's favor is that it's not limited to specific creature types. It can target any creature type for temporary go bye-bye. Sometimes that's all you need such as you need to get past a guardian you don't want to fight and you don't care it comes back because you're not there anymore.

If Divine Word is underrated then Banishment is not overrated.

[Kane0]

Its also bonus action and no concentration.

[Draken]

Its also bonus action and no concentration.

And can target everything within 30 feet. That's possibly a lot of things.

[Specter]

Am I the only one who sees a HUGE potential in a Sorcerer with SUBTLE Spell picking up Delayed Blast Fireball?

[Draken]

Am I the only one who sees a HUGE potential in a Sorcerer with SUBTLE Spell picking up Delayed Blast Fireball?

Probably? Casting without components won't hide the glowing bead of volatile uh... burning bat poop? you throw out.

[Pex]

Its also bonus action and no concentration.

It's a 7th level spell. Of course it's more powerful than a 4th level spell, despite Mordekainen's Sword. I'm not saying nor needing Banishment to be better or even the same as Divine Word, but for the same reasoning Divine Word was praised Banishment was condemned and that's not right. Banishment is not overrated, and that's not saying Banishment is the best spell ever all other 4th level spells can have a lemon. It's just not overrated.

[AttilatheYeon]

No worries, instead of using different words, I will elaborate on the words I used.

So, let's say you cast fireball. As a caster, you can choose exactly where that spell detonates. This is a tactical advantage as you can set it in the place that hurts the most enemies without harming any allies.

Now, it's significantly harder to take advantage of a delayed blast fireball's positioning, but not necessarily impossible. The enemies could be in an enclosed position, or blocked from movement by another effect, or blocked from movement by the party (for a few examples). In theory, this should allow the DBF to stew into a more deadly effect before detonating it.

Except with Delayed Blast Fireball, an enemy can simply pick up the effect and throw it out of that advantageous position (with a successful dex save). This means you either have to:
a) Detonate the fireball immediately, losing the damage advantage of having it build, or
b) lose the tactical advantage of having it placed where you would like it to be.

Now, the implication of the comment was that I was suggesting the DBF would be thrown back at the caster (who I guess is supposed to detonate it on themselves?). That of course would be absurd. In that case, the caster could simply retain concentration and throw it back again. This would turn into an unwinnable game of hot potato since the caster can detonate at any time they want.

Instead, an enemy would be more likely to simply throw the effect away. Maybe over a wall or into a well, or behind them, or just anywhere where it's not easily in reach and does not have a good position. Literally anywhere other than the place the effect was placed is likely tactically inferior for the caster (or they would have placed it there themselves).

As I said, this basically forces the caster to choose a or b above. Neither is good, and because of this, the spell becomes even harder to use effectively (and it was already plenty hard).

Is that more clear?

After DBF is thrown at a target, the spell ends and detonates. So no hot potato for the caster.

[gloryblaze]

If we want to get really nitty-gritty, a thrown DBF only detonates upon striking either a creature or a solid object. So a DBF could be picked up and thrown multiple times, so long as each time it is thrown it comes to rest in a liquid, gas, or plasma.

[Asmotherion]

Let's comment on those:

Worst Spells
3) Prismatic Spray: Aweful spell. Leave it for thematic builds like Chaos Sorcerers... Even them shoul not feel under preasure to take it, because it's that aweful.

2) Regenerate: Now, I disagree with this one, especially for the part were it can regenerate a missing body part. No other non resurection spell can do that, so it's a great solution to a problem that can realistically occure. Not a great in combat spell, but precious out of combat in my experiance (saves you killing your ally to resurect them for the same effect, as well as the expensive components, and a lot of moral grey area).

1) Mordenkainen's Sword: Spiritual Weapon is a 2nd level spell. If you really wanted that, and arcane powers, you should be playing a Divine Soul, instead of sacrifising a 7th level spell slot for a lesser version of Spiritual Weapon.

Best Spells
3) Plane Shift: What I love the most about this is it's also an RP enabling spell; As soon as you get it, you can also start looking for keys for other planes, and it becomes kind of a seccondary mission for you.
2) Forcecage: Ends encounters. That said, I'm more of a Wall of Stone guy myself.
1) Simulacrum: Do we have to explain why this is probably the best spell in the game? Double your spells as long as you can afford it.


Overrated Spells
3) Project Image: No comments here. I have no experiance with this spell. I suppose some illusionist might think he can use his capstone to "poltergaist" the reality out of it?
2) Finger of Death: Let's all admit it. We all do love our kamehameha moments. We know it's not optimal, we know it's overated, we just want to have our moment were we say "I strike thy with my death beam 'cause I'm a mage and I'm awesome like that". That's why we take things like Finger of Death and Disintegrade.
1) Delayed Blast Fireball: Is it really overated? As in, are people really taking this thing? I've seen more people actually overcasting the actual fireball, than taking this. I think it's too much of an obvious trap.

Underrated Spells
3) Conjure Celestial: Meh. The way summoning works in this edition is quite unpredictable. The good old 3.5 summoning was more worth the trouble.
2) Etherealness: Absolutelly amazing. I don't know why people would not take it. It's fly/deactivate collisions/invisibility all in one spell. Still, one should be aware of ethereal creatures lurking (I've been known to do so as a DM).
1) Divine Word: Good catch on it's use, never gave it any credit.

[Aimeryan]

If we want to get really nitty-gritty, a thrown DBF only detonates upon striking either a creature or a solid object. So a DBF could be picked up and thrown multiple times, so long as each time it is thrown it comes to rest in a liquid, gas, or plasma.

Also fine in a Bose-Einstein Condensate or pure vacuum!

[Specter]

Probably? Casting without components won't hide the glowing bead of volatile uh... burning bat poop? you throw out.

You can just cast in a pocket, or vial, or whatever until you actually throw it.

In combat, you can leave it with you. If you end up dropping to 0hp, you can play the suicide bomber and laugh in their faces. Or move towards the enemy without hiding the cast, so that they won't want to attack you. Or just wait for a full minute on an ambush. Etc.

Outside of combat, you can supermurder people without anyone even knowing it's you. Familiars, messengers, etc... Go crazy.

Treant usually doesn't care about damage, but 22d6 in area is a lot of it, so you can count on it to make a difference. With Subtle Spell, I'd always take DBF.