Gestalt Rules for PF

[VelociRapture12]

I am trying to build an Unchained Rouge4//Sorcerer4/Arcane Trickster 9 for a buddy of mines CR 15 one shot.
However I am a little fuzzy on the rules and am having some trouble finding them online. Does anyone here have a link I could use or just know the rules well enough to express them here?

Thanks in advance!

[Hunter Noventa]

There are no Gestalt rules explicitly for Pathfinder, the only ones published were in 3.5e's Unearthed Arcana. They're also not totally explicit, and by nomeans universal, and itmay vary from table to table, but the general gist is-

Take the best of these from each side:
-HD
-Skill Points
-Saving Throws
-BaB

You combine class skill lists.

Class features generally don't stack, and you can normally only take a prestige class on one side at a time.

If you're supposed to be level 15, you're missing a lot of levels on one side, and a few on the other. Gestalt means the classes you have on each side level at the same rate.

[torrasque666]

You aren't finding any for pathfinder because pathfinder doesn't have any. Best to just crib from 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)

[VelociRapture12]

There are no Gestalt rules explicitly for Pathfinder, the only ones published were in 3.5e's Unearthed Arcana. They're also not totally explicit, and by nomeans universal, and itmay vary from table to table, but the general gist is-

Take the best of these from each side:
-HD
-Skill Points
-Saving Throws
-BaB

You combine class skill lists.

Class features generally don't stack, and you can normally only take a prestige class on one side at a time.

If you're supposed to be level 15, you're missing a lot of levels on one side, and a few on the other. Gestalt means the classes you have on each side level at the same rate.

I was speaking to the DM and he said that it was Creature Rating 15, and that Gestalt levels are 1 1/2 CR per level, so my math was 1 1/2 * 4 = 6 + 9 of straight Arcane Trickster for a total CR of 15. However I felt like I was missing something.

So If I am understanding your post correctly I should be Gestalting the Prestige Class as well?

[Jeraa]

So If I am understanding your post correctly I should be Gestalting the Prestige Class as well?

Assuming you are using the 3.5 D&D gestalt rules (as Pathfinder doesn't have its own), then yes. Basically, every time you gain a level, you add a class level to each side. You will have the same number of class levels on both sides.

[Hunter Noventa]

So If I am understanding your post correctly I should be Gestalting the Prestige Class as well?

Not quite, it means that you can't have a level of say, Mystic Theurge on one side, and Arcane Trickster on the other. You have to have a base class on at least one side.

But Jeraa is also correct, you should have one level on each side at all times. Though your DM has a peculiar way of doing things, so you're going to have to clarify it with them.

[VelociRapture12]

So I'm supposed to take Rouge//Sorc4/Sorc//Arcane Trickster6 (The Math adds up to 10 for the CR1 1/2 levels) and would that give me a caster level of 16? That seems a little powerful, though that would be the point of gestalting in the first place.

[torrasque666]

Normally, theruge-ish classes like Arcane Trickster wouldn't be allowed at all (well, highly discouraged) since Gestalt is already basically Theruge.

[VelociRapture12]

Normally, theruge-ish classes like Arcane Trickster wouldn't be allowed at all (well, highly discouraged) since Gestalt is already basically Theruge.
Why though? A lot of the Theruge Classes give you the synergies to make the two work even better together. Ex. The Dual Casting in Mystic Theurge or any of the Arcane Trickster abilities that are unique to that class.

[torrasque666]

Double Progression. Theruge classes let you progress two classes at a roughly equal rate as the original classes. So putting Sorcerer and a Theruge Class progressing Sorcerer would basically double progress Sorcerer and they don't want that.

Also, given that your examples are Pathfinder (where everyone got more goodies) while Gestalt is based on a 3.5 rule, look at the 3.5 versions of those classes. Mystic Theruge just gave you progression in both classes. Arcane Trickster is basically Sneak Attack + Casting Progression (with a dash of skills at range on top), so progressing the main feature of both classes.

[upho]

I was speaking to the DM and he said that it was Creature Rating 15, and that Gestalt levels are 1 1/2 CR per level, so my math was 1 1/2 * 4 = 6 + 9 of straight Arcane Trickster for a total CR of 15. However I felt like I was missing something.

So If I am understanding your post correctly I should be Gestalting the Prestige Class as well?Judging by what you're saying here, it appears your DM wants you to be able to mix different PC build variant rules in the same build, including variants normally mutually exclusive for all levels (such as gestalt).

In detail, unlike the rules for multiclassing or using monsters as PCs in PF, gestalt was intended to be a group-wide decision affecting every single level taken by every PC. Meaning either you play a standard game and no single PC level grants progression in more than one class (or monster/racial HD) simultaneously, or you play a gestalt game and every single PC level grants progression in two different classes simultaneously.

In contrast, your DM appears to allow you to take any proportion of levels as normal or as gestalt, while you pay for each gestalt level by reducing your maximum possible progression in any one single class by -0.5 level. Hence why he's given a total CR number rather than the standard (gestalt or non-gestalt) character level number.

If I'm correct, it means you could definitely start with Rouge 4//Sorcerer 4 and continue with 9 non-gestalt levels in Arcane Trickster for a total sneak attack bonus of +6d6 and 13 levels of sorcerer spells/day and spells known. Seems like a good build chassis using these rather unique rules.

Though I think you should also ask your DM whether and how you can reduce the lost sorcerer casting progression and/or CL with things like Esoteric Training and Prestigious Spellcaster (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster/) with these rules. Specifically whether options like these (which are normally capped at character level) allow you to regain lost sorcerer casting progression/CL up to the 15 levels you're treated as having, or if they'd be limited to the 13 character levels you actually have. Regardless of whether the former or latter alternative is true, provided your setting has Golarion-style caster guilds offering Esoteric Training, you should definitely be a member and decrease your starting wealth by the amount of gp you can be expected to have payed for membership during the years before the game starts.

And if the benefit is capped at 15 levels, I'm sure your build outline can make for a very effective and versatile character, mechanically speaking. But if the benefit is capped at your actual total character level, you may wanna consider skipping the gestalt levels and reduce the Arcane Trickster levels to 7 in order to get an additional level of sorcerer caster progression, as that may be more valuable than the lost +1d6 sneak attack, invisible thief feature and +1 use/day of tricky spells which two additional levels of AT grants. Or even better; take only two gestalt rogue//sorcerer levels, add two more single-classed rogue and sorcerer levels (for a total "CR" of 7 and character level 6) and then continue with AT 8, netting you the same 14 levels of sorcerer casting but also an additional AT level.

[MrSandman]

So I'm supposed to take Rouge//Sorc4/Sorc//Arcane Trickster6 (The Math adds up to 10 for the CR1 1/2 levels) and would that give me a caster level of 16? That seems a little powerful, though that would be the point of gestalting in the first place.

No, it would give you a CL of 10. If both classes progress the same feature, you only use the fastest. Since in that case both Sorcerer and Arcane Trickster would progress your socercer's spellcasting, you'd only get to keep one of them.

What you could do, though, is go, say, sor/rog4//clr/arcane trickster6, and end up with a CL 10 for sorcerer and a CL 6 for cleric.

[VelociRapture12]

Thanks everyone for your help! I spoke with my DM and they cleared up a lot of things for me. I ended up not gestalting at all and switching the build to Rouge3, Wiz3, Arcane Trickster 9. Mostly out of frustration due to the d20srd website having a flawed/incorrect definition of the rules that led to an 1 1/2 Hour discussion over the gestalt rules.

(Though I do plan on bringing up this with them at a later date, for another game to test out some of the input from you guys!)

[Rhedyn]

Thanks everyone for your help! I spoke with my DM and they cleared up a lot of things for me. I ended up not gestalting at all and switching the build to Rouge3, Wiz3, Arcane Trickster 9. Mostly out of frustration due to the d20srd website having a flawed/incorrect definition of the rules that led to an 1 1/2 Hour discussion over the gestalt rules.

(Though I do plan on bringing up this with them at a later date, for another game to test out some of the input from you guys!)
Traits: Magical Knack

or

Feat: Prestigious Spellcaster (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster/)

[Remuko]

Thanks everyone for your help! I spoke with my DM and they cleared up a lot of things for me. I ended up not gestalting at all out of frustration due to the d20srd website having a flawed/incorrect definition of the rules that led to an 1 1/2 Hour discussion over the gestalt rules.

I mean your DM may be using different rules but that doesnt make the rules "wrong".

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm

Thats the link to the SRDs gestalt rules and as far as i can tell they are correct.