What's your thoughts on this change to magic system

[Throne12]

So most d&d games range from levels 1 to 10 with higher game play might get to level 15. So that means 7th, 8th, 9th level spells rarely used. Some even dont ever get picked because they just aren't as good as the popular ones. Shoot you only have one 8th and 9th lv slot. Any way I'm talking to much here is what I was thinking.

I would get rid of spells locked by levels. Then have a damaged range table based off of spell slot level is used. For spells like power word kill. That target hp with a Effect or Straight up damage you use your DC× spell slot level.

What other changes would you do to make this work.

[Millstone85]

Part of my excitement for the psion is the upcastable-cantrip approach they are taking.

What you offer here sounds a lot like it.

[RSP]

So most d&d games range from levels 1 to 10 with higher game play might get to level 15. So that means 7th, 8th, 9th level spells rarely used. Some even dont ever get picked because they just aren't as good as the popular ones. Shoot you only have one 8th and 9th lv slot. Any way I'm talking to much here is what I was thinking.

I would get rid of spells locked by levels. Then have a damaged range table based off of spell slot level is used. For spells like power word kill. That target hp with a Effect or Straight up damage you use your DC× spell slot level.

What other changes would you do to make this work.

First, I’m not sure what your first paragraph has to do with your question. Why does character level matter in what you’re asking (if it doesn’t, no problem, I’m just wondering if I’m missing something regarding your question).

As for your proposed change, I wouldn’t use it. The two main issues being:

1) you’re removing quite a bit of balance in that a spell like Fireball does more damage at its level but is a bit more commonly resisted by damage type. You’d really down grade certain spells, like Fireball, if every spell did the same amount of damage based on slot level. Further, different spells do different damage based on range, AoE, if they’re a single target, etc. You’re system basically says, when cast at the same spell level, Fireball, affecting X creatures in the area, does the same damage as Disintegrate, affecting a single creature.

2) how would you factor in added effects? Fireball just does damage whereas Synaptic Static does damage plus an effect (-d6 for a minute to checks). Why should they do the same damage and one has an addition effect?

In essence, each caster would just select the biggest radius and best range AoE spell with that does damage and an effect, and it becomes as powerful as the best damage spell in the game.

[Tiadoppler]

This seems like setting all spells to be "Level 1 spells" and just extending the upcasting options for each one.

I think this would have roughly the same effect as allowing players to craft their own custom spells using only the DMG p283-284 guidelines, with no oversight from the DM (except that might be a better option, because at least those guidelines have some consistency unlike some of the normal spells in the game).

There are some abilities which really shouldn't be available at level 1 (big AoEs, mind control, resurrection). A level 3 Fireball does 8d6 Fire damage, a "level 1" Fireball would do 6d6 (if you use the same spell damage progression). This would be a nightmare to write (rewriting every spell in the game), and could easily create some completely unbalanced spells.

[Throne12]

First, I’m not sure what your first paragraph has to do with your question. Why does character level matter in what you’re asking (if it doesn’t, no problem, I’m just wondering if I’m missing something regarding your question).

As for your proposed change, I wouldn’t use it. The two main issues being:

1) you’re removing quite a bit of balance in that a spell like Fireball does more damage at its level but is a bit more commonly resisted by damage type. You’d really down grade certain spells, like Fireball, if every spell did the same amount of damage based on slot level. Further, different spells do different damage based on range, AoE, if they’re a single target, etc. You’re system basically says, when cast at the same spell level, Fireball, affecting X creatures in the area, does the same damage as Disintegrate, affecting a single creature.

2) how would you factor in added effects? Fireball just does damage whereas Synaptic Static does damage plus an effect (-d6 for a minute to checks). Why should they do the same damage and one has an addition effect?

In essence, each caster would just select the biggest radius and best range AoE spell with that does damage and an effect, and it becomes as powerful as the best damage spell in the game.

No the first part is just a rant about games not going long enough to get higher lv spells.

[Mellack]

So how do you balance wish to make it work at low level? Same for gate, feeblemind, clone and demiplane. It would seem to me some effects just don't scale well.

[MilkmanDanimal]

Theoretically usable for spells that only cause damage, completely unusable for anything that has an alternate effect. How does one cast Wish at first level? Is it rephrased Polite Request?

[sithlordnergal]

First, I’m not sure what your first paragraph has to do with your question. Why does character level matter in what you’re asking (if it doesn’t, no problem, I’m just wondering if I’m missing something regarding your question).

As for your proposed change, I wouldn’t use it. The two main issues being:

1) you’re removing quite a bit of balance in that a spell like Fireball does more damage at its level but is a bit more commonly resisted by damage type. You’d really down grade certain spells, like Fireball, if every spell did the same amount of damage based on slot level. Further, different spells do different damage based on range, AoE, if they’re a single target, etc. You’re system basically says, when cast at the same spell level, Fireball, affecting X creatures in the area, does the same damage as Disintegrate, affecting a single creature.

2) how would you factor in added effects? Fireball just does damage whereas Synaptic Static does damage plus an effect (-d6 for a minute to checks). Why should they do the same damage and one has an addition effect?

In essence, each caster would just select the biggest radius and best range AoE spell with that does damage and an effect, and it becomes as powerful as the best damage spell in the game.

Well...you'd instantly see an increase of players using Freezing Sphere... 60ft radius with a Con save. You'll hit everyone with that

[Vogie]

I mean, with a lot of work, you could do this.

For example, Bigby's Hand seems like a conglomeration of four small spells, all of which being higher versions of the cantrip Mage Hand. If you do break Bigby's hand into component spells, you could make it an interesting spell progression

Fire bolt could be altered to transform into Burning Hands, Flame Sphere or Fireball depending on choices the player makes.

These sorts of things can be stitched together, Mages of Mystralia-style, or using a Path of Exile-esque gem combos or absurdly large skill tree.

If you weasel down the effects, even big spells can be broken down to component parts.

Clone, for example, would probably start off as Spare the Dying, growing into a self-cast false life when you hit 0HP, then self-Revivify, then something like Magic Jar, then finally into Clone.

Demiplane could be downscaled to Etherealness, Teleportation Circle or Banishment, or Dimension door & Misty Step. You start with quickly using the other plane, using it more and more until it's actually yours.

[Throne12]

Theoretically usable for spells that only cause damage, completely unusable for anything that has an alternate effect. How does one cast Wish at first level? Is it rephrased Polite Request?

I'll just move the first part of wish to behind the second part of the spell where you have a chance of losing the spell.

Second all tables I 0layed at has banned wish to begin with so I really dont count it as a spell choice.

[Throne12]

A little tidy bit.
. More powerful spells have higher cost material that is consume when used.


Also am I the only one that feels attack cantrips. Has no place in the game. I've played many many casters with cantrips and only time I use attack cantrips are at level 1 and 2 cause i only have 2 spell slots. Or I'm using green flame blade. Untel you hit level 5 using any range weapon is better then casting a cantrip for damage. Then at level 5 you can make your spell slot last tell your next long rest.

[Gastronomie]

My thought is that there is no need to fix something that is not broken.

[Doug Lampert]

So how do you balance wish to make it work at low level? Same for gate, feeblemind, clone and demiplane. It would seem to me some effects just don't scale well.

Wish is trivial to scale down. A level 1 wish can emulate any cantrip or a the GM's option achieve some other effect of similar power. Upscaling simply increases the level of the possible effect.

Feeblemind is trivial to scale down. It's just a debuff to some mental stats. You can have that at any power level.

Demiplane? What do you think Rope Trick DOES? It makes a temporary, small, demiplane that you can hide in.

[Throne12]

My thought is that there is no need to fix something that is not broken.

A fix would imply something is broken. How things work right now isn't broken. It's not a fix it's a change. And the reason for the change is because I dont like how it is now.