Lloth is a lesser power?

[Rebel4ever85]

So i just made a drow character and i noticed Lloth had dropped from a greater deity to a Lesser one...shes not even intermediate but so far as i have seen there is no reason for this. While its true she has lost some followers 20% of drow are not redeemed dark elves and the Dark Seldarine are ressurrected...i would have thought she would still have enough followers to at least make an intermediate power. This is of course is assuming that most of the drow still follow her and last i saw even the other Dark Seldarine never deminished Lloth all that much.

So does anyone know or have any good theories on this? I can't come up with a theory for such a massive drop in power putting her equal to the rest of the Dark Seldarine and if my information is right below 100,000 followers.

[Draken]

I'm not finding any info on who is greater, intermediate or lesser these days. Do you have a book to point towards?

Anyway, I would presume the drow are just not that numerous compared to surface-dwelling races and having your followers resumed to one species (ok, maybe two with the chitines) isn't exactly going to give you a very large following to start with, regardless of percentage, specially if they then proceed to live in one of the worst environments for population growth.

[Unoriginal]

So i just made a drow character and i noticed Lloth had dropped from a greater deity to a Lesser one...shes not even intermediate but so far as i have seen there is no reason for this. While its true she has lost some followers 20% of drow are not redeemed dark elves and the Dark Seldarine are ressurrected...i would have thought she would still have enough followers to at least make an intermediate power. This is of course is assuming that most of the drow still follow her and last i saw even the other Dark Seldarine never deminished Lloth all that much.

So does anyone know or have any good theories on this? I can't come up with a theory for such a massive drop in power putting her equal to the rest of the Dark Seldarine and if my information is right below 100,000 followers.

"Intermediate" is no longer a rank in the hierarchy. You have Greater Deities, and Lesser Deities.

There is no "she lost followers" explanations for this, the lore simply changed for 5e.

Lolth is still the strongest of the Dark Seldarine by a wide margin (and firmly in charge of them), and stronger than most of the Seldarine save from Corellon. She's also hella powerful as a Demon Prince.

Note that one's status as a Greater or Lesser deity depends on which world you are.

Also none of the gods are given a number of followers in any of the books. There is no "100'000 followers means you're X ranks" chart, either.

[terodil]

So i just made a drow character and i noticed Lloth had dropped from a greater deity to a Lesser one...
In addition to what's already been said on the topic of godhood, I just wanted to drop this here as what Mike Mearls says seems to indicate that the path Lolth seems to be taking points upwards (figuratively, or downwards, literally). It's nothing world-shattering but a teaser for Drow/Lolth aficionada/os for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rrly-bBwzA#t=27m17s

[JackPhoenix]

According to DMG's description, Lolth is propably a lesser deity because she communicates orders her followers around personally and has a physical body adventurers can go poke with a sword. Greater deities don't really interact with mortals and don't have physical embodiment outside their avatars.

Basically, greater deities are beyond the sort of stuff Lolth does. They also likely fill more important roles than "demon queen of spiders" and "goddess of one elven subrace".

[Unoriginal]

In addition to what's already been said on the topic of godhood, I just wanted to drop this here as what Mike Mearls says seems to indicate that the path Lolth seems to be taking points upwards (figuratively, or downwards, literally). It's nothing world-shattering but a teaser for Drow/Lolth aficionada/os for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rrly-bBwzA#t=27m17s

It should be pointed out that

Lolth is the one who banished the other Demon Princes, and the module says she's laid a lot of eggs

Also, during those events, Lolth was powerful enough she could power her high priestess to be able to go toe-to-toe with a Demon Prince. That's a pretty massive amount of power.

We're probably going to hear more about her in Dungeon of the Mad Mage, in any case.

[Rebel4ever85]

Also none of the gods are given a number of followers in any of the books. There is no "100'000 followers means you're X ranks" chart, either.

I don't know about the books can't say i have more than the basics so i took a look at forgotten realms wiki page and it has numbers like that. It could be complete nonsense but with no other source i just ran with that.
(forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Deity)

[Unoriginal]

I don't know about the books can't say i have more than the basics so i took a look at forgotten realms wiki page and it has numbers like that. It could be complete nonsense but with no other source i just ran with that.
(forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Deity)

The Forgotten Realms wiki is out of date in many ways. It was different in other editions.

[Naanomi]

Many Gods likely have infinite followers from infinite Prime Worlds, it doesn’t directly correlate to divine rank

[Unoriginal]

Many Gods likely have infinite followers from infinite Prime Worlds, it doesn’t directly correlate to divine rank

Case in point, nearly no one ever heard of Lolth on Eberron, while the scorpion god many drow worship there is a very minor vassal of Lolth on other worlds.

Gods don't have the same worship nor the same influence depending on many things, notably the world's connections with the Planes.

[Nifft]

Lolth is just a demon with a particularly big spider-butt and pretensions of grandeur.


I'd like to see her in a modern setting, though, where she becomes a greater power thanks to the insidiously pervasive World Wide Web. The internet is for porn because Lolth is into scantily-clad priestesses and whips.

[Millstone85]

Lolth is just a demon with a particularly big spider-butt and pretensions of grandeur.

I'd like to see her in a modern setting, though, where she becomes a greater power thanks to the insidiously pervasive World Wide Web. The internet is for porn because Lolth is into scantily-clad priestesses and whips.That's LOLth (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/QueenInterwebzPitz.pdf).

[Unoriginal]

Lolth is just a demon with a particularly big spider-butt and pretensions of grandeur.

She has literal godhood too.

[Nifft]

That's LOLth (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/QueenInterwebzPitz.pdf). That is amazing.


She has literal godhood too. ... in some settings.

She doesn't even exist in some other settings.

[Unoriginal]

... in some settings.

She doesn't even exist in some other settings.

True. But she exists and is a god in 5e's default setting.


If you're talking about a different setting, precising it is generally better.

[RedMage125]

That's LOLth (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/QueenInterwebzPitz.pdf).

Aww...that was written by wrecan before he passed away.

RIP wrecan.

[Nifft]

If you're talking about a different setting The OP doesn't seem to mention any particular setting.


precising it is generally better. Precising it is to generally it less.

[Millstone85]

Aww...that was written by wrecan before he passed away.

RIP wrecan.I didn't realize.

In his memory, then.


The OP doesn't seem to mention any particular setting.No, but the only 5e material I know that mentions Lolth as a lesser deity is the DMG.

[JackPhoenix]

That's LOLth (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/QueenInterwebzPitz.pdf).

You mean https://1d4chan.org/images/d/d9/LOLth.jpg

[MeeposFire]

As I recall her divine rank changes many times over the years. I think being Lesser or so was what she was originally and I think her rank increased later (cynically I would say that it went up as Drow became more popular in the fiction).

[Rebel4ever85]

The OP doesn't seem to mention any particular setting.

Precising it is to generally it less.

I play Forgotten Realms.

[Millstone85]

I play Forgotten Realms.In that case, I don't know whether Lolth currently is a greater or lesser deity in the Realms. I don't remember her divine rank being mentioned in SCAG, which is the only 5e FR book I own.

[RedMage125]

To put this into context for the OP, if you look at what the DMG is saying, from a Forgotten Realms perspective, there are 2 ranks of deity. Greater Deity (which is Ao in FR), and Lesser Deity (Literally every other deity, including the ones you think of as more powerful, like Bane, Mystra, Cyric, Shar, etc). Then there's Quasi-deities for things like Demigods, Titans and Vestiges.

The idea of Shar (one of the two initial sentiences in FR's universe) being a "Lesser" deity is ridiculous.

[Unoriginal]

To put this into context for the OP, if you look at what the DMG is saying, from a Forgotten Realms perspective, there are 2 ranks of deity. Greater Deity (which is Ao in FR), and Lesser Deity (Literally every other deity, including the ones you think of as more powerful, like Bane, Mystra, Cyric, Shar, etc). Then there's Quasi-deities for things like Demigods, Titans and Vestiges.

The idea of Shar (one of the two initial sentiences in FR's universe) being a "Lesser" deity is ridiculous.

Shar changed with the editions.

Also, no, the DMG mentions Ao as an Overdeity.

[Millstone85]

Greater Deity (which is Ao in FR)
Also, no, the DMG mentions Ao as an Overdeity.I think the DMG doesn't mention Ao at all, though maybe I just missed it.

Still, yeah, Ao is an overgod, which FR lore would probably still put above a greater deity.


The idea of Shar (one of the two initial sentiences in FR's universe) being a "Lesser" deity is ridiculous.
Shar changed with the editions.It is like how Selûne and Shar's first daughter, Chauntea, used to be all matter in Realmspace, but is now just the world of Abeir-Toril, or perhaps merely its goddess of agriculture.

[RedMage125]

Shar changed with the editions.

Also, no, the DMG mentions Ao as an Overdeity.

I don't see "Overdeity" mentioned in the DMG. Maybe I'm missing it. Page number?

But the description of "greater deity" as a deity who is unknown to most mortals, does not care about the affairs of mortals and may only send an avatar to other deities, seems more like an overdeity like Ao.

[Millstone85]

But the description of "greater deity" as a deity who is unknown to most mortals, does not care about the affairs of mortals and may only send an avatar to other deities, seems more like an overdeity like Ao.That's not quite what the description says. Being "beyond mortal understanding" doesn't mean they are unknown to mortals. And when "they manifest avatars similar to lesser deities", there is nothing about those being sent only to deities.

Still, on second thought, you might be onto something. I could have sworn the DMG gave Corellon as an example of greater deity, but nope.

[MeeposFire]

I don't see "Overdeity" mentioned in the DMG. Maybe I'm missing it. Page number?

But the description of "greater deity" as a deity who is unknown to most mortals, does not care about the affairs of mortals and may only send an avatar to other deities, seems more like an overdeity like Ao.

IN FR examples of greater deities would be Bane, Kelemvor/Myrkul, and Tempus back in the day. These deities tend to be of very broad and big concepts such as death, tyranny, and war.

Examples of lesser deities would ones with much more specific and smaller portfolios such as Talona (poison and pestilence) or Milil which is of poetry. These gods tend to be under the command to an extent of greater deities that have more broad representations of their abilities such as Talona is often commanded to an extent by Talos which is the god of destruction.

Previously they also used the concept of intermediate power for deities in between the two but it sounds like they split up this group into more greater or lesser deities. Helm (god of sentinels and guardians among other things) used to be an intermediate deity.

AO is an over deity. He is so unknowable that in most time periods he is not known to exist at all to mortals and even if worshipped by mortals he never answers prayers or gives spells. Unlike other gods AO has no need of followers and he can take away or give power to any deity at any time (though usually stays outof all affairs unless the gods screw up their jobs).

[RedMage125]

IN FR examples of greater deities would be Bane, Kelemvor/Myrkul, and Tempus back in the day. These deities tend to be of very broad and big concepts such as death, tyranny, and war.

Examples of lesser deities would ones with much more specific and smaller portfolios such as Talona (poison and pestilence) or Milil which is of poetry. These gods tend to be under the command to an extent of greater deities that have more broad representations of their abilities such as Talona is often commanded to an extent by Talos which is the god of destruction.

Previously they also used the concept of intermediate power for deities in between the two but it sounds like they split up this group into more greater or lesser deities. Helm (god of sentinels and guardians among other things) used to be an intermediate deity.

AO is an over deity. He is so unknowable that in most time periods he is not known to exist at all to mortals and even if worshipped by mortals he never answers prayers or gives spells. Unlike other gods AO has no need of followers and he can take away or give power to any deity at any time (though usually stays outof all affairs unless the gods screw up their jobs).

I am familiar with the pre-5e classifications.

Do you have a FIFTH EDITION SOURCE that says those deities are still "greater deities"? Because it's looking like by 5e definitions, Ao is FR's only "greater deity", and ALL other deities are "Lesser deities", which is pursuant to the OP's question. Because he or she seems to feel like Lolth's deity standing has been "reduced", which might not be the case if this new classification by the 5e DMG holds true in Faerun as well.

[Toofey]

Lolth is an illusion there is only Shar.

[Sigreid]

I am familiar with the pre-5e classifications.

Do you have a FIFTH EDITION SOURCE that says those deities are still "greater deities"? Because it's looking like by 5e definitions, Ao is FR's only "greater deity", and ALL other deities are "Lesser deities", which is pursuant to the OP's question. Because he or she seems to feel like Lolth's deity standing has been "reduced", which might not be the case if this new classification by the 5e DMG holds true in Faerun as well.

Given their penchant for being wacked by mortals occasionally I would say lesser deity fits.