Is PAM/GWM good on Sorcadin (Paladin 6/14 Sorcerer)?

[Benny89]

I love extra OAs from PAM and extra attack combining with GWM + Bless on lower levels, but mostly when I see Sorcadin builds I see either sword and shield or greatsword builds.

Is PAM somehow not working with Sorcadin? I know that bonus actions are mostly used for casting quickened spells, however we don't want to burn magic resources for not important fights so extr GWM attack from PAM is actually good + free OA attack.

What do I miss?

[Matrix_Walker]

You have the lions share of it. The loss of an ASI from multiclassing makes the remaining ones all the more precious, and competition for a Sorcerer's bonus action is quite high.

[ccjmk]

If you want to make sure to make absolute maximum damage, I'd say go for a Greatsword, and if possible, add a single level of Hexblade in there. Sacred Weapon(Devotion) + Hex Warrior means you are adding two times your CHA to your attack rolls, which is kinda sexy for Great Weapon Master, and the Hexblade's Curse allows you to try and fish a crit on that 19/20.

You should be Great Weapon Mastering all the time, IMO. When the Lords of the Dice grant you their blessings and you crit, you will be doing 10+CHA+4d6+twice whatever you choose to burn smiting and a whole other bonus action attack for 10+CHA+2d6, if I'm not messing up my math (and you don't crit on the bonus action or chose to smite again; a double crit with smites is.. just too much)

EDIT: sorry, got derailed; I'd say as a SORCADIN, save your bonus action as possible for quickened shenanigans. If you just happen to crit and have a chance of a bonus greatsword attack.. well, that's a whole other story :D

[LudicSavant]

As a Paladin you just want to have access to a good Bonus Action and Reaction of some kind. Being a Sorcerer does that for you; getting more bonus actions/reactions is helpful but has diminishing returns after the first ones. Also, multiclassing means you have less ASIs to throw around.

[Benny89]

If you want to make sure to make absolute maximum damage, I'd say go for a Greatsword, and if possible, add a single level of Hexblade in there. Sacred Weapon(Devotion) + Hex Warrior means you are adding two times your CHA to your attack rolls, which is kinda sexy for Great Weapon Master, and the Hexblade's Curse allows you to try and fish a crit on that 19/20.

You should be Great Weapon Mastering all the time, IMO. When the Lords of the Dice grant you their blessings and you crit, you will be doing 10+CHA+4d6+twice whatever you choose to burn smiting and a whole other bonus action attack for 10+CHA+2d6, if I'm not messing up my math (and you don't crit on the bonus action or chose to smite again; a double crit with smites is.. just too much)

EDIT: sorry, got derailed; I'd say as a SORCADIN, save your bonus action as possible for quickened shenanigans. If you just happen to crit and have a chance of a bonus greatsword attack.. well, that's a whole other story :D

But one level in Hexblade only allow for one-handed weapons to be used, therefore it's was always recommened for sword and board Devotion Paladins as you can make SAD CHA Pally, dip 1 level in hexblade as fast as possible (3rd level or even 2nd) to get CHA attacks. But for greatsword I think you need 3 levels of hexblade.

[Benny89]

As a Paladin you just want to have access to a good Bonus Action and Reaction of some kind. Being a Sorcerer does that for you; getting more bonus actions/reactions is helpful but has diminishing returns after the first ones. Also, multiclassing means you have less ASIs to throw around.

True, you lose one ASI for that multiclass, so I guess PAM goes out of the box then... You still need GWM, Resilent (CON), 2x CHA ASI +2 and something extra like Mounted Combatant for that Pegasus F16 Fighter or Warcaster for more "Chomp" with your casting thing.

[LudicSavant]

True, you lose one ASI for that multiclass, so I guess PAM goes out of the box then... You still need GWM, Resilent (CON), 2x CHA ASI +2 and something extra like Mounted Combatant for that Pegasus F16 Fighter or Warcaster for more "Chomp" with your casting thing.

Note that if you go Pal 6 into Sorc 14 you never get the Pegasus. But you get other good things instead.

[ccjmk]

But one level in Hexblade only allow for one-handed weapons to be used, therefore it's was always recommened for sword and board Devotion Paladins as you can make SAD CHA Pally, dip 1 level in hexblade as fast as possible (3rd level or even 2nd) to get CHA attacks. But for greatsword I think you need 3 levels of hexblade.

Oops, absolutely true there. So it's three levels of Hexblade, but it's soooo worth it. Else a single level for sword and board is pretty good too, and frees up the feat, which could probably be Warcaster to benefit from GFB/Booming Blade

[bid]

Is PAM somehow not working with Sorcadin? I know that bonus actions are mostly used for casting quickened spells, however we don't want to burn magic resources for not important fights so extr GWM attack from PAM is actually good + free OA attack.
PAM gives you a 3rd chance of getting a crit, which is the best time to use smite.

My take on sorcadin is a twin buffing machine, not a blaster. Although branding smite et al. can be nice if you don't buff.

[Benny89]

Oops, absolutely true there. So it's three levels of Hexblade, but it's soooo worth it. Else a single level for sword and board is pretty good too, and frees up the feat, which could probably be Warcaster to benefit from GFB/Booming Blade

Hm, I don't know if 3 levels are worth on Sorcadin, you loose too much stuff from Sorc or from Paladin.

Paladin 17/3 Hexblade.... maybe, but only not really. You'd have to get that 3 levels to finally use your CHA for 2h weapons. Which means you'd need to start anyway with decent STR just to live long enough for that 3 levels. Even if we did 1 Paladin/3 Warlock, that is 4 level at earliest where we would get a chance to use CHA for our 2h and delay extra attack by a lot.

If we do Paladin 6/Warlock 3, then that means 8 levels of using STR anyway for all your attacks and having 15 anyway to wear plate.

I am honestly not fan of 3 level dip for Hexblade that much.

1 level however for sword n board Paladin is absolutely awesome as you only lose capstone which for many Oaths is not that good anyway.

Maybe even sword n board Paladin 6/Sorcerer 13/Hexblade 1 would work.

[Galactkaktus]

PAM is great for making you able to use a bonus action and reaction. The thing is that the sorc multiclass already does that for you which really dimminishes the value of PAM. So i wouldn't take PAM on a sorcadin.

[Sception]

Partially competition for bonus and reaction actions, partially competition for ASIs. Paladin of any sorc is generally pretty MAD already, and multiclassing usually makes that problem worse. Vuman could still do it reasonably, but even then I personally wouldn't. It's not that the benefit isn't there, just that there's a lot more opportunity cost than there would be for most other builds. Especially when you remember that you don't have native con save proficiency and will really want to take resiliant con to bolster your concentration spells as well.

Basically you can do it, and it's valid and viable, and if you're purely looking for maximized melee damage and crit-smite opportunities it's probably even optimal. But the alternative - maxed cha, sword & boarding it with a single level dip from hexblade, is more durable due to higher AC, more reliable due to +2 attack stat accuracy, offers an extra +2 to party saves via the paladin aura, can make better use of offensive spells when appropriate (though might have some awkward equipment shuffling, or might need to take the otherwise inferior warcaster in place of resilient con, in order to manage somatic spells), and it's not like that character is actually hurting for pure damage either, even if their average dpr isn't quite as good.

Basically the sheer amount of other features a sorcadin takes a hit to in order to take the PAM/GWM combo makes it difficult to justify in my eyes.

[samcifer]

I'm currently playing a sorcadin (devotion / Divine Soul) with a halberd and both feats. Attacking 3 times per turn with full charisma and Sacred Weapon to counter the -5 to hit for the +10 damage (with SW active and attacking with a +2 weapon and 18 STR, my to-hit is +10) is really good to have. I'm currently at lv. 10 (5/5), but am enjoying the combat versatility and high damage of the build so far.

[Waterdeep Merch]

You build around it if you do it, but it's definitely viable. Obviously you don't care as much about quicken or SCAG cantrips, because you aren't really reliant on them like other sorcadins to top your DPR. You'll probably prefer buffs and twinning, or even just blowing sorcery points on extra spell slots.

It's much, much nicer looking if you roll stats and get lucky enough to score 18+ in Strength and Charisma. Doesn't it always?

[samcifer]

You build around it if you do it, but it's definitely viable. Obviously you don't care as much about quicken or SCAG cantrips, because you aren't really reliant on them like other sorcadins to top your DPR. You'll probably prefer buffs and twinning, or even just blowing sorcery points on extra spell slots.

It's much, much nicer looking if you roll stats and get lucky enough to score 18+ in Strength and Charisma. Doesn't it always?

I got 18, 17, 16, 12, 12, and 11 for my stats. I went Fallen Assimar, so I ended up with STR: 18, DEX: 12, CON: 16, INT: 11, WIS: 12, CHA: 20

[Waterdeep Merch]

I got 18, 17, 16, 12, 12, and 11 for my stats. I went Fallen Assimar, so I ended up with STR: 18, DEX: 12, CON: 16, INT: 11, WIS: 12, CHA: 20

I might never spend a single ASI on stats with scores like that. Feats all the way, let's get silly!

Any plans for your third? Sentinel's a classic. Tough would make you chunkier than a straight vanilla paladin. War Caster? If you go War Caster, eventually you could pick up Spell Sniper and Booming Blade for one hell of a final combo.

[samcifer]

I might never spend a single ASI on stats with scores like that. Feats all the way, let's get silly!

Any plans for your third? Sentinel's a classic. Tough would make you chunkier than a straight vanilla paladin. War Caster? If you go War Caster, eventually you could pick up Spell Sniper and Booming Blade for one hell of a final combo.

Well, I have a few possibilities:

As I'm wearing medium armor and only have a +1 to initiative, I was considering going +2 DEX. Another idea would be to go Alert for a bigger initiative boost as my AC is already 20 (defensive fighting style + half-plate armor + +3 amulet of protection from our generous DM letting me go shopping for it). Another though would be to go Toughness for more HP as I only have 82 HP on my character, or maybe warcaster (I started as sorc, so I have the CON save prof.) Honestly, tho, it'll be a while as I will need to go up 3 more levels in either class before I get another ASI/feat (I'm 5/5 right now), assuming I don't go up to pal 6, then go up sorc to 8, meaning 4 more levels before I get the ASI/feat.