Frostbite vs Toll the Dead

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Will the extra damage from the Toll the Dead cantrip be higher then the damage mitigated by the Frostbite cantrip?

Frostbite targets the stronger save, but Toll the Dead only deals 3 more damage (+3 at lvl 5,11,17). A failed monster attack might be better then some puny damage, but hard hitting monsters tend to have good con saves. What is the better use of your action?

[ad_hoc]

Toll is better in general because of that con save and it scales better.

That said it is good to have 2 to choose from anyway. Sorcerers and Tome Warlocks can afford to have 3.

[Speely]

Despite the save involved, I think Frostbite is the better cantrip. A cantrip that can negate a potential crit pays for itself, and it scales at least.

[stoutstien]

Toll the dead just for mandatory Metallica quotes.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

Toll is better in general because of that con save and it scales better.

But Frostbite scales even better because the damage you prevent also grows. Couldn't that outweigh the better save and the little damage?

[OvisCaedo]

Frostbite has... SOME issue with con saves tending to be very good for enemies as you go up in levels, along with being a more conventionally resisted damage type, and being a potential single-attack debuff where many creatures have multiattack. That doesn't mean it's useless, but means its potential application can still be very swingy. If you want to prevent or reduce a dangerous foe's damage, you might not want to be relying on cantrips for it any more.

It stands out a bit as one of the options that's compatible with both relevant evocation wizard features, but that's relevant to... well, evocation wizards, and not really anybody else.

[ad_hoc]

But Frostbite scales even better because the damage you prevent also grows. Couldn't that outweigh the better save and the little damage?

What we really need to know is what other cantrips you have.

[ImproperJustice]

I think Frostbite works best for EKs, especially in a dueling type situation.
Eldritch Strike makes the save easier, and the enemy will usually have a hard to impossible time getting past the EKs defenses at disadvantage.

[Rebel4ever85]

Toll of the dead is awesome...but i always end up fighting undead....so that is worth considering.

[Dr. Cliché]

That said it is good to have 2 to choose from anyway. Sorcerers and Tome Warlocks can afford to have 3.

Unfortunately, most Sorcerers can't get Toll the Dead. :smallfrown:

I guess it was too fun and flavourful to be permitted.



Toll the dead just for mandatory Metallica quotes.

Yeah, I can't think of Toll the Dead without thinking of For Whom the Bell Tolls.

It's the sort of thing that I'd like to base a character around.

[Asmotherion]

Personally not a big fun of save or damage cantrips. They fail to deliver more often than their attack roll counterparts in my experiance.

That said necrotic over cold would be my choice 9/10 times. Unless it was a thematic build or something.

[Dark Schneider]

Frostbite for evocators because Potent Cantrip + Empowered evocation. The fixed value (+ INT) is usually good, it shorten the distance to Toll the Dead, and gives disadvantage to next target attack on save failed.
Here a link about Frostbite advantages:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23476741&postcount=31

In other case, Toll the Dead.

[Angelalex242]

Well, silver or white sorcerers have a darn good reason for frostbite too.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

What we really need to know is what other cantrips you have.

For combat? Firebolt.

I want a save for take damage cantrip for those situations where I have to conserve resources but not being in melee is not really an option. The lots of very weak monsters from all sides scenario.

[Tanarii]

Personally not a big fun of save or damage cantrips. They fail to deliver more often than their attack roll counterparts in my experiance.
That's because all things equal, they are effectively +3 to hit.

chance of success
8+mod+prof-d20-savemod > 0
Vs
Chance of success
d20+mod+prof-AC > 0

Setting those equal
2*d20+Savemod = AC+8
Or on average 13+savemod =AC

In other words, +0 save is as hard to overcome as AC 13. AC 10 is about the same as a -3 save mod. An attack spell is +3 relative to a save spell, in terms of success.

Obviously this is variable depending on any given enemies AC vs the targeted bonus to save. If you can pick a savemod that's three or more lower than the AC, you're coming out ahead.

[Dark Schneider]

Also save-based instead attack, you ignore covers, so you can cast behind your allies without half cover penalty.

To hit is usually the same as average, as more powerful creatures have both better AC and saves. A +/-1 to one or the other side is not concerning. The AC is something fixed, the save depends the creature saves. The worst scenario is if the creature is proficent with that save, then use other resources if you have.

[Zalabim]

Dexterity saves still care about cover normally. Not an issue with these two.

Also, in that calculation, Attacks hit on 0. It's just saves that do not. That's why it's a +4 difference.

[Tanarii]

Also save-based instead attack, you ignore covers, so you can cast behind your allies without half cover penalty.You also don't take disadvantage for "being in melee" (within 5ft of a hostile creature). Whether or not it's the target.

(I've noticed a lot of DMs misread that rule as you only take disadvantage if you're within 5ft of the target.)


Also, in that calculation, Attacks hit on 0. It's just saves that do not. That's why it's a +4 difference.yeah the second one should have started from >= AC, so >= 0, or > 1, so that's a 1 pt extra difference.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

You also don't take disadvantage for "being in melee" (within 5ft of a hostile creature).

Yeah, that's the main reason I want to get one of those. There are just situations where it is ok to stay in melee with a minion. Not having disadvantage is pretty nice then.

[ad_hoc]

For combat? Firebolt.

I want a save for take damage cantrip for those situations where I have to conserve resources but not being in melee is not really an option. The lots of very weak monsters from all sides scenario.

With Firebolt Frostbite an edge as it is good to use to protect yourself against a creature who is attacking you in melee.

Frostbite also has a rider effect that you may want to use in the right circumstances. Toll the Dead is straight damage but you already have Firebolt for that.

One straight damage and one rider attack cantrip w/ one being good at ranged and one in melee is the way to go.