Best 1v1 character

[Ivor_The_Mad]

My question is simple, What type of character is best in a 1v1 situation? I was thinking some kind of fighter with levels of swashbuckler and 1 level of hexblade. Swash for the 1v1 sneak attack then the hexblades curse. I just added fighter for the health though it's not necessary. Any better combos or things to improve? Also what weapon and feats would make this build better.

[KorvinStarmast]

My question is simple, What type of character is best in a 1v1 situation? I was thinking some kind of fighter with levels of swashbuckler and 1 level of hexblade. Swash for the 1v1 sneak attack then the hexblades curse. I just added fighter for the health though it's not necessary. Any better combos or things to improve? Also what weapon and feats would make this build better.
What level are you talking about?
What "1" is this PC supposed to fight?
Your question is very incomplete.
Please add a bit more detail.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

What level are you talking about?
What "1" is this PC supposed to fight?
Your question is very incomplete.
Please add a bit more detail.

I didn't exactly have a level in mind maybe 20th. Also "1" just means a single enemy.
Let's say that the PC has to fight against an NPC of equal level. A one on one dual.

[hymer]

I didn't exactly have a level in mind maybe 20th.
Moon druid? Is this a trick question?

Edit: It's not like there exists no counters to moon druids, but for most characters they're pretty much unkillable.

[Benny89]

PC vs PC? PC vs Highest CR monsters? It's important.

I will give mine however:

1. Moon Druid. At certain levels he will simple outstand most characters till they burn out of everything. On 20 it's almost unkillable for most builds.
2. Wizard/Sorcerer at higher levels IF GIVEN TIME to cast first buffs/protection spells on themselfs. If we talk about situation- suddenly a duel has begun - roll initiative, then they are screwed in first turn by most burst builds. But if they can prepare and start in first turn or at least live through first turn- they can easly win 1v1.
3. Hand Crossbow Battlemaster - at level 11 it can have 7 attacks with Sharpshooter, 120 feet range and Menancing Strike or Trip Strike to use. High Dex to win initiative- it can NOVA from 120 feet for riddiculous damage and make almost all of her strike either have chance to apply frighten or trip you. Highest consistent DPR in game. On level 20 it can NOVA you 2 time in row for 9 attacks per turn basicelly turning even dragon to dust.
4. Paladin (be it multi or pure) - Oath of Vengeance. Well what to say- class designed to go 1v1 and burn resources for riddiculous amount of damage from Smites, extra attacks (5-6 on Oath of Vengeance with PAM, Haste and Soul of Vengeance) and superior save throws + possible mounting hasted Pegasus for 580 feet per round mobility which puts him on enemy turn way outside of 98% of attacks enemy can make (except for Meteor Shower or 600 feet range EB, but EB won't kill him or mount in one turn). Or Socradin with quickened Hold Person can pretty much do Bonus Action- Hold Person and then Burn Smites (Auto Crit) and basicelly delete anyone in first round (12d8 each critical hit from Smites alone + GWM + STR + 2k10).


Those are my picks at least for 1v1.

[Unoriginal]

Are we to suppose only one fight in the day?

[Benny89]

Are we to suppose only one fight in the day?

Well, it's suppose to be 1v1 duel I guess so two people stand one on one and go all out to kill another one.

Why would it last more than day? Most burst build can dish way over 200 damage in turn on 20 level so I doubt such duel would last more than 2-3 turns max. If we talk about optimize 1v1 builds it would be just a matter of who win initiative. 5e is tottaly not balanced about PC vs PC duels.

[Theron_the_slim]

Lvl 5+ I would guess Monk.
Obviously D&D is more a game of odds, if one side roles significantly better than the other, the weaker character still can win.

But in a one-on-one situation, stunning strike is insanely oppressive, especially since the Monk can use it multiple times per turn.
The only classes I see reliably safe (and with that i mean more than 60% per stunning strike) are fighters and barbarians (the later ones AC is usually pretty low until very late, so yeah ... if you have 3 chances to fail, even 60-70% to succeed chancees aren´t that great)

The thing is, on PC´s the damage is pretty high compared with their hp, so chances are pretty good that if the monk is the first one in the initiative, he wins without the opponent doing anything. (No shapechange, no spells, no rage)
And even their chances for that are usually better, because they are a Dex Class.
And even if not, especially on higher levels, the most dangerous effects are all save based, a thing that doesn´t scare monks too much (Evasion and Diamond soul).

Appart from a high lvl wizard getting luck on initiative and doing some really cheesy highlvl stuff (Timestop, Greater insivibility, Powerword Stun and hope to blast the guy with something that doesn´t require dex saves) I don´t see much to fear here.

My concrete answer would be probably Way of the Open fist (17) if you want to go all in for the insta kill, and then 2 lvl fighter for action surge (I think the odds here usually would be worse but that´s more a guess, I haven´t done the math yet) or 2 lvl Diviner Wizard for the switched rolls (then you really only need to worry about getting this second action for the insta kill off)

The safer route: I actually would go would be Way of the Shadow Monk (14) Samurai (4) Diviner Wizard (2). I have a little bit flexibility and mobility in case I actually have to react (darkness and the teleport do a lot depending on the environment), advantage on attacks (Stunning Strikes will hit), action surge, 4 ASI to max out Wisdom and Dex (or Dex 18 and the Alert feat, since winning the initiative almost certainly wins the duel). And 14 stunning strikes should be enough to down anyone (maybe except the rare Moon Druid or Barbarian winning the Initiative)

[Unoriginal]

Well, it's suppose to be 1v1 duel I guess so two people stand one on one and go all out to kill another one.

Why would it last more than day? Most burst build can dish way over 200 damage in turn on 20 level so I doubt such duel would last more than 2-3 turns max. If we talk about optimize 1v1 builds it would be just a matter of who win initiative. 5e is tottaly not balanced about PC vs PC duels.

The question is if the PC is supposed to have full ressource and know they can spend all their ressources.

[Benny89]

The question is if the PC is supposed to have full ressource and know they can spend all their ressources.

That's a good question, but for the saky of consistency I would say yes- you can't really merit 1v1 potential if you strip resources. That way for example a battle master hand crossbow would mop the floor with most magic-based builds as he doesn't need any resources outside of bolts.

I treat this question like classic PvP match- full resources, let's roll. But I guess OP should clarify.

[R.Shackleford]

My question is simple, What type of character is best in a 1v1 situation? I was thinking some kind of fighter with levels of swashbuckler and 1 level of hexblade. Swash for the 1v1 sneak attack then the hexblades curse. I just added fighter for the health though it's not necessary. Any better combos or things to improve? Also what weapon and feats would make this build better.

In a city setting against a sentient creature that isn't completely stupid...

Lightfoot Halfling (Storm/Water Soul) Sorcerer 18/Rogue 2

Background that has disguise kit.

Expertise Stealth and Sleight of Hand

Feat: Actor

Have fun finding me. Also, have fun most likely not having subtle spell, why? Because your options are limited if you don't want to be attacked by the city guards (I'm thinking like Waterdeep or something similar) you will have to keep the fuzz off you somehow while my character is free to sit at a cafe and mess with you while reading the paper and sipping coffee.

Could even frame the enemy for harming citizens.

=====

In a neutral setting wasteland/flat space...

Open Hand Monk 17/ Moon Druid 3?

with Alert.

Huge initiate, huge mobility, slight HP sponge, and...


Move up, Quivering Palm, and then turn into an animal of your choice to mock the moon druid.

Most NPCs won't be optimized but Con isn't the best save to have... But still I guess change moon druid to diviner wizard and give them a bad day.

Quivering Palm is straight up awesome.

[Harrisonvinny]

If my group is anything to go by a Paladin of the conquest oath with 3 levels in fighter is nigh unstoppable. Some of it is due to getting lucky with dice rolls on stats and HP and such but still.

[jdolch]

Level 20 Caster build for Initiative casting Wish. Guess what the Wish is...

[Naanomi]

Wild Sorcerer with initiative boosts, can apply disadvantage and extra penalties on a ‘save to lose this fight’ ability of their choice

Alternatively, a Counterspell boosting build to prevent that

[R.Shackleford]

Level 20 Caster build for Initiative casting Wish. Guess what the Wish is...



Wish is the mightiest spell a mortal creature can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter the very foundations of reality in accord with your desires.

The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don't need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly Components. The spell simply takes effect. Alternatively, you can create one of the following effects of your choice.

• You create one object of up to 25,000 gp in value that isn't a magic item. The object can be no more than 300 feet in any dimension, and it appears in an unoccupied space you can see on the ground.

• You allow up to twenty creatures that you can see to regain all Hit Points, and you end all effects on them described in the Greater Restoration spell.

• You grant up to ten creatures that you can see Resistance to a damage type you choose.

• You grant up to ten creatures you can see immunity to a single spell or other magical effect for 8 hours. For instance, you could make yourself and all your companions immune to a lich's life drain Attack.

• You undo a single recent event by forcing a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish spell could undo an opponent's successful save, a foe's critical hit, or a friend's failed save. You can force the reroll to be made with advantage or disadvantage, and you can choose whether to use the reroll or the original roll.

You might be able to achieve something beyond the scope of the above examples. State your wish to the DM as precisely as possible. The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance, the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner.

The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. After enduring that stress, each time you Cast a Spell until you finish a Long Rest, you take 1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell. This damage can't be reduced or prevented in any way. In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn't 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend Resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days. Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress.



You wish for the oponent to be dead... The enemy is no a Lich version of themselves with no phylactery...

[Misterwhisper]

It really depends on their level.

The best one on one combat build at level 5 is very different to the one at level 20.

At level 20 a moon Druid is borderline unkillable, in a solo fight. Nobody can shell out enough hp damage to put one down.

Their only real weakness is save or lose spells, or MAYBE a monk just chain stunning them.

If you beat them on initiative you might can burn them down before they shift, if they go first you are pretty screwed.

A level 20 character just built to be a smite engine is pretty scary. But it is usually a nova for 2 maybe 3 rounds and then burn out.

A lore bard is great simply for all the cherrypicked spells.

A fighter is very dangerous if they can win initiative.

Sorcerer or wizard is great just from the high end spells sorcerer can throw them safer but wizard have a much better spell list.

Other than the obvious ones I will say possibly a diviner wizard aasimar. Mainly because of a VERY questionable ruling on magic missile.

Evidently casting magic missile can benefit for bonuses to a spell, per missile.

So the aasimar ability to add their level to a spell once per turn can be done per missile.

Level 9 magic missile.
11 missiles

1d4 + 21 damage each.
At minimum damage that is 242 damage.
It is force so almost nothing resists it.
Throw a counterspell to stop them from using shield.

With 3 divination dice you should be able to win initiative.

Only really problem is a sorcerer who can subtle counterspell.

Or if you want to take the chances with initiative, play a sorcerer to subtle cast it.

[jdolch]

You wish for the oponent to be dead... The enemy is no a Lich version of themselves with no phylactery...

That's definitely not what you wish for. I think anybody who used the spell knows that you have to be a little careful. And just wishing for something to be dead is just asking for trouble. ;)

But yeah there is so much stuff you can do as a High Level Caster, even without Wish. If you can win the Initiative you win the fight. Hell, just ban them into another dimension or something.

[R.Shackleford]

That's definitely not what you wish for. I think anybody who used the spell knows that you have to be a little careful. And just wishing for something to be dead is just asking for trouble. ;)

But yeah there is so much stuff you can do as a High Level Caster, even without Wish. If you can win the Initiative you win the fight. Hell, just ban them into another dimension or something.

The spell specifically says it will screw with you if you wish an enemy dead.

Could just send you 1,067 years in the future, but that's not the only option.

[jdolch]

Didn't i just specifically state that you DON'T wish for them to be dead? There are about a bazillion things you can do with this, that would win you the fight without saying "I wish he was dead muahahahahha *evil laughter*"

[Tifeho]

It's pretty easy.

Divine Soul Sorcerer is far superior than others. In every way.

[qube]

Cleric 20. Divine intervention.
Divine Intervention, which at level 20, autosucceeds in your deity wanting to help you
Divine Intervention is able to duplicate any Cleric spell
Gate , a cleric spell, is able to summon any creature. But it will only help you if it wants to.
Deities in D&D aren't abstract concepts - but actual physical creatures

... I see your +3 sword, and I raise you one diety. :smallamused:

[Galactkaktus]

The most important thing in a 1v1 is initiative. So whatever it is it has to have really good initiative.

[Misterwhisper]

Cleric 20. Divine intervention.
Divine Intervention, which at level 20, autosucceeds in your deity wanting to help you
Divine Intervention is able to duplicate any Cleric spell
Gate , a cleric spell, is able to summon any creature. But it will only help you if it wants to.
Deities in D&D aren't abstract concepts - but actual physical creatures

... I see your +3 sword, and I raise you one diety. :smallamused:

I could see an archangel maybe an avatar if you are in some mortal danger but the deity itself is a far stretch.

The deity is intervening is not going to be forced there by a spell.

[Tifeho]

The most important thing in a 1v1 is initiative. So whatever it is it has to have really good initiative.

Initiative is useless. ^^.

Only, if you are on a small run, but, still useless.

[Misterwhisper]

Initiative is useless. ^^.

Only, if you are on a small run, but, still useless.

Ummm, no. Going first is a massive advantage. Especially for certain classes.

[Unoriginal]

Ummm, no. Going first is a massive advantage. Especially for certain classes.

Please do not engage with or acknowledge the banned user who's ban-evading.

[Tifeho]

Ummm, no. Going first is a massive advantage. Especially for certain classes.

I doubt.

Only specific scenario. Pretty specific.

[dmteeter]

Lvl 20 champion fighter with alert, GWM, magic initiate(booming blade) And mobile using a greatsword.

Win initiative
Attack with booming blade
follow up with extra attacks
action surge
attack again no need for booming blade

Move 40 ft

wash, rinse repeat.

15% crit chance.

[Tifeho]

Lvl 20 champion fighter with alert, GWM, magic initiate(booming blade) And mobile using a greatsword.

Win initiative
Attack with booming blade
follow up with extra attacks
action surge
attack again no need for booming blade

Move 40 ft

wash, rinse repeat.

15% crit chance.

Booming blade counterspelled.

Damage and attack bonus?

It's really close range. situational.

[qube]

On initiative - it could be important to act before the guy who can one-shot you, so you can either one-shot him, or get your defenses up.

It's not everything - becasue you need to be strong enough to use that round to your advantage, But in a 1-on-1, it's the equivalent of an extra turn... (& not just 'a turn' - but a turn where the other guy doens't have his defenses up yet)

Edit: appendum:Though it should be worthy to note that Initiative is quite fickle, and you need a very high score for it to to give you a reliable score. A difference of +5 in score still gives the other guy a 27% of winning init.

I could see an archangel maybe an avatar if you are in some mortal danger but the deity itself is a far stretch.What you're doing, is playing the role of DM who doesn't want his PC's character to be too powerful. A very worthy cause in a real game - don't get me wrong - but this is not case. This is building the most powerful character. Considering nowhere does any of what I stated make a distinction of the amount of hp left, or the type of the creature, there is no distinction between able to summon an archangel when you're low on hp, or summoning Lord Ao Himself*

* though I think it be more optimal to go for a high ranking god of war, destruction, bloodlust, murder, ... whatever) but I'm too laisy to browse all the partheons out for the best pick. ('casue, don't forget, the human, Sword Coast pantheon isn't he only one out there (both other races, and other locations (like the Egypt-like Mulhorrand) have other pantheons)


-----------------

Attack with booming blade
follow up with extra attacks
doesn't work.
you cast booming blade as spell action. & Part of booming blade is making a melee attack (not melee attack action) .
Oppositely, you only get extra attacks if you use the attack action.

At best, you could be a Eldritch knight, cast the boomling blade cantrip, and then attack as bonus action (as per EK's ability)

[Misterwhisper]

On initiative - it could be important to act before the guy who can one-shot you, so you can either one-shot him, or get your defenses up.

It's not everything - becasue you need to be strong enough to use that round to your advantage, But in a 1-on-1, it's the equivalent of an extra turn... (& not just 'a turn' - but a turn where the other guy doens't have his defenses up yet)

Edit: appendum:Though it should be worthy to note that Initiative is quite fickle, and you need a very high score for it to to give you a reliable score. A difference of +5 in score still gives the other guy a 27% of winning init.
What you're doing, is playing the role of DM who doesn't want his PC's character to be too powerful. A very worthy cause in a real game - don't get me wrong - but this is not case. This is building the most powerful character. Considering nowhere does any of what I stated make a distinction of the amount of hp left, or the type of the creature, there is no distinction between able to summon an archangel when you're low on hp, or summoning Lord Ao Himself*

* though I think it be more optimal to go for a high ranking god of war, destruction, bloodlust, murder, ... whatever) but I'm too laisy to browse all the partheons out for the best pick. ('casue, don't forget, the human, Sword Coast pantheon isn't he only one out there (both other races, and other locations (like the Egypt-like Mulhorrand) have other pantheons)


-----------------

doesn't work.
you cast booming blade as spell action. & Part of booming blade is making a melee attack (not melee attack action) .
Oppositely, you only get extra attacks if you use the attack action.

At best, you could be a Eldritch knight, cast the boomling blade cantrip, and then attack as bonus action (as per EK's ability)

So, you think the gate spell can forcefully pull a god wherever it wants... um no.

[dmteeter]

doesn't work.
you cast booming blade as spell action. & Part of booming blade is making a melee attack (not melee attack action) .
Oppositely, you only get extra attacks if you use the attack action.

At best, you could be a Eldritch knight, cast the boomling blade cantrip, and then attack as bonus action (as per EK's ability)[/QUOTE]


still works without the booming blade

[qube]

So, you think the gate spell can forcefully pull a god wherever it wants... um no."um no" isn't an argument.

But indeed, you can't do it "Forceably", as in, without their concent. Because of this:

Deities and other planar rulers can prevent portals created by this spell from opening in their presence or anywhere within their domains.
However, because of the successful Divine Intervention check, they have no reason why they wouldn't want to do it.


still works without the booming bladequite true

[Misterwhisper]

"um no" isn't an argument.

But indeed, you can't do it "Forceably", as in, without their concent. Because of this:

Deities and other planar rulers can prevent portals created by this spell from opening in their presence or anywhere within their domains.
However, because of the successful Divine Intervention check, they have no reason why they wouldn't want to do it.

quite true

If that is what you are going to do with it, then you are the one playing DM with what the rule/spell does, not me.

[qube]

If that is what you are going to do with it, then you are the one playing DM with what the rule/spell does, not me.I'm sorry to say, but "uh no" had more argumentative value.

[Galactkaktus]

Edit: appendum:Though it should be worthy to note that Initiative is quite fickle, and you need a very high score for it to to give you a reliable score. A difference of +5 in score still gives the other guy a 27% of winning init.

So 5 more initiative mod would mean that i gain the advantage about three times as often as my opponent sounds pretty huge to me.

[JellyPooga]

That's a good question, but for the saky of consistency I would say yes- you can't really merit 1v1 potential if you strip resources. That way for example a battle master hand crossbow would mop the floor with most magic-based builds as he doesn't need any resources outside of bolts.

I treat this question like classic PvP match- full resources, let's roll. But I guess OP should clarify.

Sigh. It's such a pointless exercise that favours nova combat builds. If we're measuring combat potential, why not a series of fights where resources must be carefully managed over the course of the challenge? Or why not a series of various challenges other than "reduce the other guy to 0HP"? How about a battle of wits or hide-and-seek? Or who can win over a crowd or find their way through the forest best? There are so many metrics by which you can gauge the "power" of various classes in PvP; the question of "who'll kick the others teeth in, given full nova capability" is one that's been discussed a hundred times and always comes down to "whoever rolls highest on the first roll of the match" (as others have mentioned: Initiative).

[Damon_Tor]

I didn't exactly have a level in mind maybe 20th. Also "1" just means a single enemy.
Let's say that the PC has to fight against an NPC of equal level. A one on one dual.

At 20th level the best I've come up with is a divination wizard 17/assassin rogue 3. Wizard sets up a demiplane he's native to (this body was created there), so his contingency spell is Banishment. With his spell DC and his dumped Cha, he autofails his save and is teleported to the demiplane as a free action. He can either stay the full minute and then go about his business or he can return to face whatever he ran from without using an action simply by releasing his concentration on the banishment.

His demiplane is setup with several symbols containing buffing spells:

Level 1 Chromatic Orb. This allows him to cast Absorb Elements at level 8 to gain 8d6 damage of whatever type you like based on what you're going to be fighting
Haste (Double Move speed and one extra attack)
Level 7 Shadowblade (5d8 weapon that deals psychic damage)
Enlarge (+1d4 Damage)
Lvl 3 Crusader's Mantle (+1d4 radiant damage) A level 17 wizard has wish, so he can replicate any classes' spells below level 9
Guidance (+1d4 to one ability check, initiative or stealth in our case)
Bless (+1d4 to attack rolls)
Enhance Ability (Cat's Grace) (Advantage on Dexterity Checks, including Stealth and Initiative)

If you're facing something particularly challenging, add:
Level 8 Searing Smite (8d6 Fire Damage, one attack)
Level 1 Thunderous Smite (2d6 Thunder Damage)
Level 1 Wrathful Smite (1d6 Psychic Damage)
Level 8 Branding Smite (8d6 radiant damage)
Level 3 Blinding Smite (3d8 radiant damage)
Level 4 Staggering Smite (4d6 psychic damage)
Level 1 Zephyr Strike (1d8 force)

Then you cast Shapechange on yourself to become a Planetar. This breaks your concentration and takes you back to wherever you left from.

Feats are:
Alert: +5 Initiative
Great Weapon Master: Bonus Action Attack
Lucky: 3 extra d20s per day
Elven Accuracy: +1 Int, 1 extra d20 on non-str attacks when you have advantage

Ideally, you do this while the other guy cant see you, well outside his true sight or whatever stupid extra senses he has. The turn after you return from your buffing parlor demiplane, you fly at him (flight speed is 240), likely beating his initiative and perception to earn yourself the assassin autocrit feature. You've got 4 attacks (planetar comes with 2, haste gives you one, GWM gets you another) Between the planetars naturally high dex, elven accuracy, and your divination dice, you should hit all of them, even vs really high ACs.

Average damage dealt in the nova round is somewhere around 700 damage.

[R.Shackleford]

Didn't i just specifically state that you DON'T wish for them to be dead? There are about a bazillion things you can do with this, that would win you the fight without saying "I wish he was dead muahahahahha *evil laughter*"

I may have misread.

However the same applies. Anytime you wish like this, you are gonna get messed over in some way. Not only will you be hurting yourself when you cast more, but the DM is encouraged to twist the wish.

You wish an enemy shrinks down to the size of a grain of sand... A hole in spacetime erupts (much like a black hole forming if Ant Man was more realistic) and hell spawns come through some portal.

Point is, using wish for anything outside of 8th level spell of lower and you're gonna have a bad time. Also, makesure you don't pizza when you should have frenched fried.

[Specter]

It's funny that people think a non-caster can actually match casters in the PvP department. Maybe from levels 1-5?

[Foxhound438]

If we're looking at going in blind to a "pvp tournament" ala every 90's anime, having a chance against everything is probably important. There's a strong argument for monk: they can beat most casters with good saves and stunning strike, so long as we aren't looking at having to fight vs 8th and 9th level spells after losing initiative; they can kite slow melee types (fighters and barbarians who have good con saves, for example); and they can have a favorable damage race against archers due to deflect missiles. 4 elements actually would be pretty good, since you can take hold person and have two different save types of locking down your opponent.

If I expect to be in a game where say a boss monster will say "come one v one me", that guy's probably a big dumb beater, and at later levels he probably has amazing to legendary saves. You'd probably be looking at having to just go fight him in melee, and attempting tricks is apt to just lose you time in that damage race. Something like a bear totem barbarian is a good "general case", but paladin is probably more often right if the DM likes using demons/devils/undead off of divine smite and prot e+g, and surely there are other cases that favor different tank builds.

And of course, there's always the question of starting conditions. Is this the Cell GamesTM? the Hunger GamesTM? the Who Is Better With 500 Years Of Prep Time GamesTM? Each case can give advantages to certain archetypes- brawlers are better in a confined area where you aren't allowed to leave, skirmishers are better when they know the enemy is present before direct contact, and wizards are better at pillow forts.

[R.Shackleford]

Is this the Cell GamesTM?

If it is, I'm bringing Tien.

Kiko-how ya doing.

[Vorpalchicken]

He can either stay the full minute and then go about his business or he can return to face whatever he ran from without using an action simply by releasing his concentration on the banishment.


17 Wizard/3 Assassin is quite potent and I'm sure you can come up with a slightly different plan but the flaw with this one is that you are incapacitated while banished.

[qube]

So 5 more initiative mod would mean that i gain the advantage about three times as often as my opponent sounds pretty huge to me.Yes it does ... but remember, that in case of equal initiative, you already have a 50/50 chance of winning. The investement of a +5 increases that to 73/27. (or simplified 3/4). A.k.a. the investment it took for a +5 difference, only prevented half the times you were going to "fail" at initiative.

And that investment can be huge. If as baseline, you use a character you have to win from, one who has the alert feat, and didn't dump dexterity - You'll need to boost dex to 20 (hopefully you're using a dex-based build?), spend a feat slot on alertness as well, and have an ability like that of champion (hopefully you weren't planning on lvl 9 spells or lvl 20 abilities of other classes?), Just to reach that +5 difference.

... the lvl 20 champion archer seems like one of the few builds that can handle that. And don't get me wrong, that class can put down some serious hurt ... but if it's the best build ... I dunno.

Likewise, certain builds can just completely ignore init - as they have survivability from the get-go; giving them ample freedom (feat, stats, and levels) compared to the epic-init-build.
Can that champion put down a lvl 20 zealot, before it starts it's immortal rage?

[jdolch]

Anytime you wish like this, you are gonna get messed over in some way. Not only will you be hurting yourself when you cast more, but the DM is encouraged to twist the wish.

Debatable for custom wishes. It would depend heavily on what you want to do. Basically these rules are there to ensure that the DM has a tool to keep you from destroying his storyline. Arguably that doesn't even apply to just killing an other PC. Why would a PC who willingly agrees to pvp to the death with you, have plot armor? Doesn't make sense. I say a reasonable DM would grant you exactly what you want if it is reasonable and contained. Which, in this case, it is.

But you can always use wish to just cast a "lower" level spell. If used in that way it doesn't get twisted and doesn't backfire.

But you don't need Wish. For example how about starting with "Time Stop"?

Bottom line is, if you go against a level 20 caster and the caster goes first, you are dead. Or turned into a tea kettle. Or teleported into an empty dimension. Or any one of a bazillion other bad things that can happen. Doesn't matter if you have 10 attacks with +32 to hit and 666D12+1408 Dmg.

[qube]

But you don't need Wish. For example how about starting with "Time Stop"?

Bottom line is, if you go against a level 20 caster and the caster goes first, you are dead. Or turned into a tea kettle. Or teleported into an empty dimension. Or any one of a bazillion other bad things that can happen if you fail a save, and don't have counter measures (like contingency). Doesn't matter if you have 10 attacks with +32 to hit and 666D12+1408 Dmg.Appended a very important note in red - for what you claim is far from a given.
(A Yuan-ti pally for example has a ~50% chance to hit a DC19 with his worst save)

[dmteeter]

It's funny that people think a non-caster can actually match casters in the PvP department. Maybe from levels 1-5?

Level 20 barbarian with grappler and tavern brawler wins everytime if he wins initiative. Can't cast when your pinned down getting pummeled to death.

[Unoriginal]

It's funny that people think a non-caster can actually match casters in the PvP department. Maybe from levels 1-5?

Any martial can match any caster in PvP, at any level.

[Damon_Tor]

17 Wizard/3 Assassin is quite potent and I'm sure you can come up with a slightly different plan but the flaw with this one is that you are incapacitated while banished.

Only if you're banished while on your native plane.

[Unoriginal]

At this point it'd be funny to have a 90's anime style tournament.

[Damon_Tor]

Level 20 barbarian with grappler and tavern brawler wins everytime if he wins initiative. Can't cast when your pinned down getting pummeled to death.

Anyone with a Contingency spell is effectively immune to losing initiative. A contingency can be triggered by the condition "you lose initiative" and you can simply leave the fight, go to another plane of existence, or rocket 200 feet into the sky.

And let's say the barbarian somehow kills "the wizard". Unfortunately, you only killed the stolen body the wizard was using, and when it drops to 0 HP the real wizard pops out from the gemstone his real body was stored in (notably, you aren't grappling him) and proceeds to kill you. Then somehow you manage to kill the wizard's "real" body. Well unfortunately, the wizard has a clone waiting sitting in a demiplane someplace with a simulacrum waiting to send that clone right back to you, without even missing a round of combat. Or maybe you were fighting a simulacrum the whole time.

And if at any point the wizard decides he can't win the fight (unlikely) he simply leaves. He casts Dimension Door or Plane Shift. He heads off to his demiplane where he can take as much time as he wants to plan your demise. A few days later your barbarian get teleported via Gate (no save!) inside a Force Cage (no save!). At this point the wizard steals your body with a Magic Jar (you roll a 1 on the cha save because the wizard is a diviner and he uses a portent). Now the wizard is wearing you like a new suit and there is NOTHING you can do to stop it. Nothing. As soon as the wizard learns your name he can do whatever he wants to you.


Any martial can match any caster in PvP, at any level.

How? Another caster can maybe counter some of the wizard's bull**** with counterspells, dispell magic, and anti-magic fields. What can someone without spells hope to accomplish? How can they possibly beat Gate+Forcecage+Magic Jar? They can't. There is nothing they can do about it.

[Unoriginal]

How can they possibly beat Gate+Forcecage+Magic Jar?

A sword to the throat. An arrow is also an appropriate alternative.

Also you can't use Magic Jar on someone who's in a Forecage. Unless you're using the cage variant, but in that case you're still getting attacked, so...

If you wish to attempt demonstrating your "there is nothing they can do about it" in an actual 1 vs 1 PvP game situation, I'd gladly participate.

Not that 5e PvP is anything exciting or that the game is built for it, but eh. I'm rather tired of people making unsubstantiated claims about how casters can somehow beat everyone because [insert X scenario advantaging the caster] is always going to happen.

[Misterwhisper]

Also, Gate requires know the true name or the Spell fails
Also, Force Cage or Magic Jar against a Paladin? Weell good Lucky.

Also, you cant use Magic Jar on force caged creatures.

Portent is hardly countered by "you must see".

Force cage has no save unless you are huge size or bigger.

[Unoriginal]

But, he can scape by teleportation way. Its cha save

...how does a Paladin teleport?

[Unoriginal]

New ravnica New Spell or by items

You're LordDrako aren't you?

[Misterwhisper]

You're LordDrako aren't you?

Yes, that’s him.

[Galactkaktus]

Yes it does ... but remember, that in case of equal initiative, you already have a 50/50 chance of winning. The investement of a +5 increases that to 73/27. (or simplified 3/4). A.k.a. the investment it took for a +5 difference, only prevented half the times you were going to "fail" at initiative.

And that investment can be huge. If as baseline, you use a character you have to win from, one who has the alert feat, and didn't dump dexterity - You'll need to boost dex to 20 (hopefully you're using a dex-based build?), spend a feat slot on alertness as well, and have an ability like that of champion (hopefully you weren't planning on lvl 9 spells or lvl 20 abilities of other classes?), Just to reach that +5 difference.

... the lvl 20 champion archer seems like one of the few builds that can handle that. And don't get me wrong, that class can put down some serious hurt ... but if it's the best build ... I dunno.

Likewise, certain builds can just completely ignore init - as they have survivability from the get-go; giving them ample freedom (feat, stats, and levels) compared to the epic-init-build.
Can that champion put down a lvl 20 zealot, before it starts it's immortal rage?

So i would half my losses again seems huge. And for ini with low cost you have bards with jack of all trades war wizard comes to mind you also have stuff like guidance and enhance ability or tides of chaos. Casters in general gains less from feats so more initiative is not really that expensive for them what else are they going to put their asi in after getting 20 in their spell casting ability if you make a character for 1v1?

[Damon_Tor]

A sword to the throat. An arrow is also an appropriate alternative.

Also you can't use Magic Jar on someone who's in a Forecage. Unless you're using the cage variant, but in that case you're still getting attacked, so...

If you wish to attempt demonstrating your "there is nothing they can do about it" in an actual 1 vs 1 PvP game situation, I'd gladly participate.

Not that 5e PvP is anything exciting or that the game is built for it, but eh. I'm rather tired of people making unsubstantiated claims about how casters can somehow beat everyone because [insert X scenario advantaging the caster] is always going to happen.

You can attack through the forcecage, yes. And let's go ahead and assume you're 100% ready for the fight. Why not? Here's the problem. I'm not even there in the room with you. I'm already in the magic jar, ready to take your body. The gate and forcecage was cast by my simulacrum. Go ahead and kill him if you like. It might make you feel better. But you won't even get a turn, so it's not really very relevant. I don't even need the forcecage, really.

As for "X scenario advantaging the caster" keep in mind every advantage I've given myself in this scenario is the direct result of spells I've cast. A martial character CANNOT get to me in my demiplane. He CANNOT summon me against my will. I have UNLIMITED time to create exactly the scenario I want. I only summon you when I'm ready to fight you.

You want to roleplay it out?

Okay, here we go.

1. Your character is derping along on the material plane, being a martial character, doing whatever it is martial characters do. Suddenly a portal opens up and swallows him up. Oh no! There's no save! You're in a room surrounded by a cage of magical force. There's a wizard standing in front of you (simulacrum).
2. You roll initiative. Oh no! You rolled low and I rolled high (portent #1&2+indefinite prep time. These rolls are whatever I want them to be)
3. You feel your mind being invaded by a strange foreign intelligence. You try to resist with a cha save! Oh no, you rolled low (portent #3) and your body belongs to the other guy.

What would you have done differently?

Maybe you could spend every minute of every day with a readied attack action, with the trigger "I get abducted by the wizard"? At least you'd get a shot off that way. Maybe you'd even kill the simulacrum. Good for you! But it wouldn't change the outcome.


Also, Gate requires know the true name or the Spell fails
Also, Force Cage or Magic Jar against a Paladin? Weell good Lucky.

Also, you cant use Magic Jar on force caged creatures.

Portent is highly countered by "you must see".

Ah yes, the true name. Because wizards don't have spells that can tell them someone's name. Contact Other Plane would work just fine "Hey, Greater Deity of the Knowledge Domain, what's the name of that guy that laughably tried to kill me that one time? Cool, thanks." It's difficult to imagine a 20th level barbarian who has managed to keep his identity a secret from a God.

Paladin is a spellcaster. I was addressing "any martial can beat any spellcaster". But even a paladin with a +16 cha save can be magic jarred when I use my portent to force him to roll a 1 on his save. But as noted, this isn't for the paladin anyway. The paladin I'd probably just true polymorph into a footrest or something.

Magic jar works fine on forcecaged creatures. Use the mode that explicitly allows spells to pass through it. Frankly the force cage isn't even really necessary. I could just create use fabricate or true polymorph to create an adamantine cage or something. And as noted above, I don't actually need to restrain anyone, because I win initiative and the magic jar auto-wins the fight.

And how does a barbarian, fighter or even rogue hide himself inside a forcecage in a demiplane of the wizard's creation?

[qube]

...how does a Paladin teleport?
both Ancient & Vengeance get Misty Step
Redemption gets counterspell

And any pally could Banish himself if the fight is on a different plane

[Damon_Tor]

I mean, the wizard could also have a simulacrum gate anyone to right on top of a one million symbols filled with disintegration spells.

I just don't understand the arguments here. There are a ton of ways a wizard can instantly destroy a guy, while he's safe in his demiplane, totally unassailable. The idea that a non-spellcaster could hope to challenge him is simply incorrect. All the scenarios I can thing of what could result in a martial character winning the fight involve "he goes and gets help from a spellcaster".

[Damon_Tor]

both Ancient & Vengeance get Misty Step
Redemption gets counterspell

And any pally could Banish himself if the fight is on a different plane

Misty Step and Banish require an action or a bonus action, and he won't get a turn. There are no spells being cast in front of the paladin in the above gate+magic jar scenario. But as noted, the magic jar isn't for spellcasters anyway, that's so the wizard can steal a 24Str 24Con body from the barbarian who thought he could beat a wizard with wrestling. The paladin would probably get Gates+An arbitrarily large number of damaging symbols instead. Again, no spells cast in front of him. And even if he does figure out a way to use a counterspell, he gets 1 reaction. My simulacrim then uses his reaction to counterspell the counterspell. Or I use mine, because I'm not in the magic jar in this situation. This scenario doesn't even require that I use any portents.

[ProsecutorGodot]

How? Another caster can maybe counter some of the wizard's bull**** with counterspells, dispell magic, and anti-magic fields. What can someone without spells hope to accomplish? How can they possibly beat Gate+Forcecage+Magic Jar? They can't. There is nothing they can do about it.


And how does a barbarian, fighter or even rogue hide himself inside a forcecage in a demiplane of the wizard's creation?


A thief rogue can pop a smoke grenade(mundane non magical equipment item, creates heavy obscurement) as a bonus action so that the wizard cannot possess him and use two bags of holding to escape the Forcecage into the Astral Plane and a Staff of the Magi to escape to his home. Now he's got 8 hours to prepare while the wizard can't Gate him back. The Wizard also wastes his Glyph Buffs, which would take him several days to set up again.

You also can only replace one roll with a portent per turn, you either boost your initiative or tank the rogues. Unless you've managed to max your dex and int with your ASI after taking 4 feats(which the rogue gets more of, so he also can take alert and max dex) you might still lose initiative.

You made a lot of assumptions in your first plan mockup, mostly that a rogue wouldn't take Alert. The Rogue could also have taken lucky, which he can use instead of the portent result. Portent happens before the roll, lucky happens after the roll. Remember that you can only change one dice per turn and the Rogue now has a choice between the die you used portent on and a fresh d20. Your Wizards lucky can't cancel this unless it's an attack roll.

So yes, you made a powerful character, but don't go around saying that the plan is completely foolproof.

[R.Shackleford]

both Ancient & Vengeance get Misty Step
Redemption gets counterspell

And any pally could Banish himself if the fight is on a different plane

Here's how someone tried to do this once... Paladin was attempting to get back to the material plane after being caught in a trap (rolled a 1 on the saving throw)... Paladin was mid fight and hadn't rested for a while. Dude was brave but kinda dumb.

Half Orc Paladin: I use *banishing smite*... On myself

DM: Roll for it... I guess...

Paladin: Rolls... Natural 20.

DM: Roll damage...

Paladin: 3d10 + 5 + 10d10 damage...

DM: Don't you only have like 30-ish HP left?

Paladin: ...

DM: So, uhh, as the rest of the party is searching the room and you hear a thump behind you. The dead body of your Paladin friend lays there... Upon inspection it looks as if the Paladin smited himself.

Side Note: Turns out the Paladin could have just grabbed the same book from the book shelf to get back.

[Unoriginal]

You can attack through the forcecage, yes. And let's go ahead and assume you're 100% ready for the fight. Why not? Here's the problem. I'm not even there in the room with you. I'm already in the magic jar, ready to take your body. The gate and forcecage was cast by my simulacrum. Go ahead and kill him if you like. It might make you feel better. But you won't even get a turn, so it's not really very relevant. I don't even need the forcecage, really.

As for "X scenario advantaging the caster" keep in mind every advantage I've given myself in this scenario is the direct result of spells I've cast. A martial character CANNOT get to me in my demiplane. He CANNOT summon me against my will. I have UNLIMITED time to create exactly the scenario I want. I only summon you when I'm ready to fight you.

You want to roleplay it out?

Okay, here we go.

1. Your character is derping along on the material plane, being a martial character, doing whatever it is martial characters do. Suddenly a portal opens up and swallows him up. Oh no! There's no save! You're in a room surrounded by a cage of magical force. There's a wizard standing in front of you (simulacrum).
2. You roll initiative. Oh no! You rolled low and I rolled high (portent #1&2+indefinite prep time. These rolls are whatever I want them to be)
3. You feel your mind being invaded by a strange foreign intelligence. You try to resist with a cha save! Oh no, you rolled low (portent #3) and your body belongs to the other guy.

What would you have done differently?

Maybe you could spend every minute of every day with a readied attack action, with the trigger "I get abducted by the wizard"? At least you'd get a shot off that way. Maybe you'd even kill the simulacrum. Good for you! But it wouldn't change the outcome.


Ah, yes, infinite preparation time, unlimited ressources, knowledge of the opponent in advance, all of this is granted by "spells you've cast".

Also, wizards BBEG always win and adventurers can't do anything against them lol.


All you've "shown" was that if given time to prepare, a wizard could beat a random martial who had no idea some wizard would target them.


So, again, how about we test your little hypothesis in an actual combat situation?

[qube]

You can attack through the forcecage, yes. And let's go ahead and assume you're 100% ready for the fight. Why not? Here's the problem. I'm not even there in the room with you.If you don't show up, but someone else does ... then why would you be the one who's the fight about, and not the other guy?

... by that logic, I got an even BETTER strategy. My warforged also doesn't show up. Not knowing there wasn't a fight to begin with, you die of old age. I win.


Ah yes, the true name. Because wizards don't have spells that can tell them someone's name.But you don't have an infintie memory memorizing each and every martial's characters name. At the moment you talk of, that martial guy is no different then any of the martial guys out there.


3. You feel your mind being invaded by a strange foreign intelligence. You try to resist with a cha save! Oh no, you rolled low (portent #3) and your body belongs to the other guy.

What would you have done differently?reroll the save? Fighter reroll saves, Yuan'ti reroll saves, people with the lucky feat reroll saves, etc ...

[qube]

Here's how someone tried to do this once... Paladin was attempting to get back to the material plane after being caught in a trap (rolled a 1 on the saving throw)... Paladin was mid fight and hadn't rested for a while. Dude was brave but kinda dumb.

Half Orc Paladin: I use *banishing smite*... On myselfI was actually refering to the Banishment spell (which is, aside from a wizerd spell, also a paladin spell), not banishing smite.

[Unoriginal]

Also, I'm curious WHICH spells you'd use to know the true name of someone on a different plane.



Even funnier, you CAN'T have your Simulacrum do anything when you're in your Magic Jar.




The simulacrum is friendly to you and creatures you designate. It obeys your spoken commands

So good job defeating yourself.

[R.Shackleford]

You cant know the true name If that creatures dont want reveal
Also, portent is pretty weak at high level.
Its countered hardly by heavy obscurecer " you must see" is your counter

If you're talking truename as is 3e Truenamer... I don't think 5e has actual rules for one's "true name".

[ProsecutorGodot]

Misty Step and Banish require an action or a bonus action, and he won't get a turn. There are no spells being cast in front of the paladin in the above gate+magic jar scenario. But as noted, the magic jar isn't for spellcasters anyway, that's so the wizard can steal a 24Str 24Con body from the barbarian who thought he could beat a wizard with wrestling. The paladin would probably get Gates+An arbitrarily large number of damaging symbols instead. Again, no spells cast in front of him. And even if he does figure out a way to use a counterspell, he gets 1 reaction. My simulacrim then uses his reaction to counterspell the counterspell. Or I use mine, because I'm not in the magic jar in this situation. This scenario doesn't even require that I use any portents.

A barbarian has advantage on initiative and can choose to rage immediately to overcome the surprised condition. You can only replace one of his two initiative rolls and since portent must be done before dice are rolled and the results are decided, he'll always get the higher of the two.

Your strategy to use portent to win initiative is the biggest flaw in all of these plans.



Even funnier, you CAN'T have your Simulacrum do anything when you're in your Magic Jar.


It's even funnier when you realize that because it can't learn it can't follow commands that you haven't issued during the turn. After you command it to cast Gate and put yourself in the jar it's basically a fancy statue.

[Unoriginal]

If you're talking truename as is 3e Truenamer... I don't think 5e has actual rules for one's "true name".

It has, actually. Notably concerning Fiends' names and for the Gate spell.

A true name isn't like in 3e, it's just your actual name. But it's still needed for it to work, and some creatures take step to hide their true name.

[R.Shackleford]

I was actually refering to the Banishment spell (which is, aside from a wizerd spell, also a paladin spell), not banishing smite.

Guess who didn't have banishment spell prepared... Paladins don't get a whole lot of spells prepared.

Also, there are no rules for auto-failing saving throws. That Paladin is cranking out a Prof (+5 at worse) + Cha (+5) + Cha (+5) = +15 versus their DC of 8 + 5 + 5 = 18.

So banishment, even if he has it, is no where near a garuntee. You have to roll a 1 or 2 in order to banish yourself. Not a great tactic.


Edit


It has, actually. Notably concerning Fiends' names and for the Gate spell.

A true name isn't like in 3e, it's just your actual name. But it's still needed for it to work, and some creatures take step to hide their true name.

Yeah, I didn't think it had rules for truenames like in 3e.

[qube]

It has, actually. Notably concerning Fiends' names and for the Gate spell.

A true name isn't like in 3e, it's just your actual name. But it's still needed for it to work, and some creatures take step to hide their true name.in a wolrd where even the most powerful of hero's can be whisked away and ganked, verisimilitude would dictate everyone hides their true name ...

[Damon_Tor]

A thief rogue can pop a smoke grenade(mundane non magical equipment item, creates heavy obscurement) as a bonus action so that the wizard cannot possess him and use two bags of holding to escape the Forcecage into the Astral Plane and a Staff of the Magi to escape to his home. Now he's got 8 hours to prepare while the wizard can't Gate him back. The Wizard also wastes his Glyph Buffs, which would take him several days to set up again.

He's got to take a turn to use a bonus action. He doesn't get one. And for the record, it will take less time to recreate any glyphs than it will to source two more bags of holding.


You also can only replace one roll with a portent per turn, you either boost your initiative or tank the rogues. Unless you've managed to max your dex and int with your ASI after taking 4 feats(which the rogue gets more of, so he also can take alert and max dex) you might still lose initiative.

I can max my dex by shapechanging into something with beyond-human dex. My simulacrum can use his portents to tank the rogue's initiative while I use mine to boost my own. I don't lose initiative.


You made a lot of assumptions in your first plan mockup, mostly that a rogue wouldn't take Alert. The Rogue could also have taken lucky, which he can use instead of the portent result. Portent happens before the roll, lucky happens after the roll. Remember that you can only change one dice per turn and the Rogue now has a choice between the die you used portent on and a fresh d20. Your Wizards lucky can't cancel this unless it's an attack roll.

The wizard has alert too, and let's go ahead and buff him with Guidance too, just to be sure. And let's say he has dex 26 because of shapechange. And because you've got that lucky feat that makes blowing my portent on your initiative pointless, I'll just go ahead and wait to gate him in until my simulacrum or I get a 20 as a portent. So even if you manage to roll a 20 with your lucky dice, I'll still win.


So yes, you made a powerful character, but don't go around saying that the plan is completely foolproof.

Specifically, that was the plan for the barbarian who wanted to wrestle me to death. I don't have any interest in stealing a rogue's body.

[ProsecutorGodot]

He's got to take a turn to use a bonus action. He doesn't get one. And for the record, it will take less time to recreate any glyphs than it will to source two more bags of holding.

I can max my dex by shapechanging into something with beyond-human dex. My simulacrum can use his portents to tank the rogue's initiative while I use mine to boost my own. I don't lose initiative.[/B]
What part of "Portent can only affect one dice roll per turn" do you not understand. You cannot use a high portent to boost your initiative and tank the rogues at the same time. You cannot guarantee that you go first.

How are you using Shapechange, Guidance and Gate at the same time? All three are concentration, so even if your Simulacrum does one you aren't going to manage them all. Are you seriously trying to tell me that your Epic level Wizard is allowed infinite prep time and costly magical components (almost all of the spells you're casting require a specific material component that cannot be substituted with a focus) but my also Epic Level Rogue can't source two bags of holding in several hours?

If your Wizard is allowed infinite prep time, so is my Rogue.

He's spent his entire life's fortune to accumulate a virtually endless supply of Bags of Holding in the event that he needs a panic button. An army of skilled enchanters are at his employ creating dozens of bags each day, all carefully stored so as to not cause a cataclysmic disaster. He also carries a Weapon of Warning so that in the event that a pesky Wizard tries to interfere with his fate he always will have advantage and be guaranteed a straight roll. We're at a stalemate sir.

[Damon_Tor]

Ah, yes, infinite preparation time, unlimited ressources, knowledge of the opponent in advance, all of this is granted by "spells you've cast".

Correct, yes.


Also, wizards BBEG always win and adventurers can't do anything against them lol.

Don't be silly, the adventurers have spellcasters too.


All you've "shown" was that if given time to prepare, a wizard could beat a random martial who had no idea some wizard would target them.

Correct, I have shown this.


So, again, how about we test your little hypothesis in an actual combat situation?

We did that. You just didn't get a turn.


If you don't show up, but someone else does ... then why would you be the one who's the fight about, and not the other guy?

... by that logic, I got an even BETTER strategy. My warforged also doesn't show up. Not knowing there wasn't a fight to begin with, you die of old age. I win.

You don't have a choice. I summoned you.


But you don't have an infintie memory memorizing each and every martial's characters name. At the moment you talk of, that martial guy is no different then any of the martial guys out there.

I don't need to remember everyone's name. I can just ask God.


reroll the save? Fighter reroll saves, Yuan'ti reroll saves, people with the lucky feat reroll saves, etc ...

It's a good thing I've a simulacrum right there to replace any rolled saves then.


You cant know the true name If that creatures dont want reveal
Also, portent is pretty weak at high level.
Its countered hardly by heavy obscurecer " you must see" is your counter

I'm pretty sure God knows your name. And you don't get a turn to obscure yourself.


Also, I'm curious WHICH spells you'd use to know the true name of someone on a different plane.

I was using Contact Planar Entity, but I'm sure there are others.


Even funnier, you CAN'T have your Simulacrum do anything when you're in your Magic Jar.

Goodness, if only I could explain the plan to him beforehand. Oh wait, I can. And also note: the Magic Jar is specifically for the barbarian who wants to wrestle me. I won't be in a magic jar in most other circumstances.


A barbarian has advantage on initiative and can choose to rage immediately to overcome the surprised condition. You can only replace one of his two initiative rolls and since portent must be done before dice are rolled and the results are decided, he'll always get the higher of the two.

Your strategy to use portent to win initiative is the biggest flaw in all of these plans. Are we really arguing that portents don't supersede advantage/disadvantage? Because they do. Rerolls are relevant, advantage/disadvantage is not. And the rerolls are handled by the Simulacrum's portents.


It's even funnier when you realize that because it can't learn it can't follow commands that you haven't issued during the turn. After you command it to cast Gate and put yourself in the jar it's basically a fancy statue.

"Cannot learn" is different than "Cannot remember". Grasp those straws though.

[Damon_Tor]

What part of "Portent can only affect one dice roll per turn" do you not understand. You cannot use a high portent to boost your initiative and tank the rogues at the same time. You cannot guarantee that you go first.

There are two of me, two sets of portents.


How are you using Shapechange, Guidance and Gate at the same time? All three are concentration, so even if your Simulacrum does one you aren't going to manage them all. Are you seriously trying to tell me that your Epic level Wizard is allowed infinite prep time and costly magical components (almost all of the spells you're casting require a specific material component that cannot be substituted with a focus) but my also Epic Level Rogue can't source two bags of holding in several hours?

Spells cast with glyphs don't require concentration.

As for resources, a wizard can generate infinite wealth. They can turn goats into blocks of gold. Rogues are limited to amount of material wealth on the planet.


If your Wizard is allowed infinite prep time, so is my Rogue.

Infinite prep time is afforded by being in-assailable in his demiplane. But okay, sure.


He's spent his entire life's fortune to accumulate a virtually endless supply of Bags of Holding in the event that he needs a panic button. An army of skilled enchanters are at his employ creating dozens of bags each day, all carefully stored so as to not cause a cataclysmic disaster. He also carries a Weapon of Warning so that in the event that a pesky Wizard tries to interfere with his fate he always will have advantage and be guaranteed a straight roll. We're at a stalemate sir.

You still have no way to win initiative. Ever. Even if you do sometimes win initiative (and you don't) all you can do is escape. If I were to concede that would can win initiative 50% of the time (and to be clear, I do not concede this) then that means 50% of the time you die, 50% of the time you escape (and do not kill me). Every day your life is a cointoss, while you still have no way to kill me. That's not a stalemate.

[qube]

You don't have a choice. I summoned you.
... and who is this "you"?

With the birthrate of an entire continent, you don't have the spellpower do do this for every person out there.


It's a good thing I've a simulacrum right there to replace any rolled saves then.Why would he do that? Did you tell 'm to do that? How? Your wizard doesn't know the concept of a rerolling a save.

[Unoriginal]

Why would he do that? Did you tell 'm to do that? How? Your wizard doesn't know the concept of a rerolling a save.

Also the Simulacrum would have no indicator the spell failed except post facto.

Or are you telling it that it has to use its portents all the time?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Are we really arguing that portents don't supersede advantage/disadvantage? Because they do. Rerolls are relevant, advantage/disadvantage is not. And the rerolls are handled by the Simulacrum's portents.
Nope, you're absolutely right on this one, I misunderstood the intended result of Portent in regards to Advantage.

However I still think it's ridiculous that you're allowing this wizard infinite preparation and resources but refuting any claim that another character would have equal opportunity.

[Damon_Tor]

Nope, you're absolutely right on this one, I misunderstood the intended result of Portent in regards to Advantage.

However I still think it's ridiculous that you're allowing this wizard infinite preparation and resources but refuting any claim that another character would have equal opportunity.

They can prepare for exactly as long as the wizard does. I never said they couldn't.

Though I'll note that I'm doing all of this under the assumption of no optional rules like magic item creation. And I'll also note that the creation of magic items, even under those rules, requires the ability to cast spells. If you're employing other characters to create these items for you, this is no longer a 1v1 situation, and it doesn't support the idea that "any martial character can defeat any spellcaster" which was the original argument I had intended to refute.

And again worth noting, nobody has seriously put forward a means why which a level 17+ wizard can be defeated by a martial character, at best the arguments are "my character has a chance to survive that is marginally greater than zero." They're still wrong, of course, but I'm just noting what the goalposts have become.


... and who is this "you"?

With the birthrate of an entire continent, you don't have the spellpower do do this for every person out there.

I'm not sure I understand the argument. This is 1v1. That's the whole premise of the discussion. I don't have to kill an entire species.


Why would he do that? Did you tell 'm to do that? How? Your wizard doesn't know the concept of a rerolling a save.

How does anyone? Rerolling dice is inherently meta. A portent is forseeing the future, how do you "reroll" that? I accept that you can, because mechanically you can, but we've gone past the point where this makes any kind of sense as a narrative. If we must have a narrative solution: the Wizard uses his Simulacrum's visions to double-check his own in the off chance he's wrong somehow. There you go.

[R.Shackleford]

Nope, you're absolutely right on this one, I misunderstood the intended result of Portent in regards to Advantage.

However I still think it's ridiculous that you're allowing this wizard infinite preparation and resources but refuting any claim that another character would have equal opportunity.

The issue is that the wizard has features to allow them this perk, while non-casters do not (in D&D).

Demiplane is a very useful tactic in taking out non-casters 1v1 as having a base of operations that is completely safe from the other combatant is basically broken.

Getting to pick the time, location, and stipulations of a battle may not garuntee the outcome, but it heavily skews it in your favor.

[Nhorianscum]

(RIP lurker status)

Not entirely certain why full martials show up so often in this sort of debate. A quick defense. (While the reading of stroke of luck vs portent is pretty clear in strokes favor here, regardless of the number portent generates it is treated as a 20. The thief can certainly use expertise and reliable talent to bypass portent at least once after this and can potentially shut down this itteration of the wizard but... it does not matter)

For simplicity.

Assuming the gate user can just... gate anyone into a room full of anything they like keyed to "activate when I leave the plane" while standing on a glyph of "banish me when x person enters the plane" innitiative becomes irrelevant. Wish is overkill here but using it to find even the most well hidden truename (non-detection can bypass lesser divinations and at 20 anything you can live under it for the rest of your life by just paying a mook) is well within the use of the spell. (Citing the semi absurd number of times x effect hides something from everything but wish).

If you do not have "contingency: gate targets me" you are dead with no real wiggle room provided the caster is willing to risk burning wish to see you dead. This is well within "rocks fall" territory.

So a more meaty qestion would be, which full caster subclass/multiclass would come out on top at 5, 11, 17, or 20 assuming a months prep time?

(Alternate possibly offtopic question I have never seen discussed, moon druid shows up a lot in these discussions, as a magical effect would wild shape be vulnerable to dispel magic?)

(Edit: This is assuming gate bypasses nondetection by virtue of being not-divination)

[Damon_Tor]

(Alternate possibly offtopic question I have never seen discussed, moon druid shows up a lot in these discussions, as a magical effect would wild shape be vulnerable to dispel magic?)

I don't see how wild shape is possibly relevant, even if we assume it's unaffected by dispel magic. Burning through an extra 126 hitpoints in one round isn't challenging. There are builds that can drop the Terrasque or an Ancient Dragon in one round, there's no way a wooly mammoth or earth elemental is going to put up a serious fight.

[Damon_Tor]

Can we assume that a demiplane protects you from being summoned by a gate via the "planar ruler" clause. Are you the planar ruler of a demiplane you create? It seems like you would be. If so, that basically means that once a spellcaster gets access to demiplane it's game over, they're untouchable. Another spellcaster could wish you dead, but the spell description specifically calls that wish out as one prone to wish corruption. Plane Shift requires an object attuned to the target plane, which one presumes they won't have access to. The Demiplane spell itself can access another caster's demiplane as long as they "know the nature and contents" of that demiplane. That would require some very specific divination magic, and I'm not sure what would qualify.

Clerics can use Divine Intervention I suppose.

[qube]

I'm not sure I understand the argument. This is 1v1. That's the whole premise of the discussion.Yes, indeed. "This is 1v1".
Simulacrum? casting time 12 hours


Average hit chance of a commoner: 5%
Average damage of a commoner: 4.5 (1d6+1)
43200 * 5% * 4.5 = 1 dead wizard.

... that's 1v1. You can't have it both ways. Either it's 1v1 and the martial character can hit you, or it isn't 1v1 .. at which point, there's nothing stating you even know of the martial character to begin with.
So, genocide is your only option. <which is not even true, as you don't know the race of my character.>


Can we assume that a demiplane protects you from being summoned by a gate via the "planar ruler" clause. Are you the planar ruler of a demiplane you create? It seems like you would be. Unless it's in 5E RAW, I'd say no. Because in previous editions (at least 3.5), it wasn't. Planar rulers are (or were in 3.5 ) the equivalent of gods, able to will things into existance and such; and when they die, their plane implodes (edit: if it wasn't hijacked by someone else, that is).

Oppsitely, once demiplane is cast, you don't seem to retain any special connection to it.

[Damon_Tor]

Contact other plane doesnt work to know the creatures true name.
It is only yes, no answer.
The non-caster just hide his true name and Gate fails.

The spell reads:

On a successful save, you can ask the entity up to five questions. You must ask your questions before the spell ends. The GM answers each question with one word, such as “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or “unclear” (if the entity doesn’t know the answer to the question). If a one-word answer would be misleading, the GM might instead offer a short phrase as an answer.

I can tell English isn't your first language, but so you're aware, "such as" does not imply an exhaustive list.

[dejarnjc]

I love how worked up y'all get about this lol. DnD 5e is just a rock, paper, scissors scenario when it comes to PvP and initiative is pretty key to "winning" so there are no sure fire builds. Pretty much anything can be countered (martial or caster) by another specific build (martial or caster) and a lot would also depend on the environment and level of the combatants.
NONE of you can really say X class would win in any given scenario so it's best to just say that X class would be strong, Y class would be a bit weak, Z class would be good against X class but weak against Q class and so on.

[qube]

The spell reads:

On a successful save, you can ask the entity up to five questions. You must ask your questions before the spell ends. The GM answers each question with one word, such as “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or “unclear” (if the entity doesn’t know the answer to the question). If a one-word answer would be misleading, the GM might instead offer a short phrase as an answer.

I can tell English isn't your first language, but so you're aware, "such as" does not imply an exhaustive list.

I can tell English isn't your first language, because that sentence indeed indicates in the type of answer the DM should give, as Tavoo notes.

In your interpretation, "such as" would have to be interpreted as "hey, reader, we know you don't understand what "one word" means, so here are some examples of single words."

[Nhorianscum]

I don't see how wild shape is possibly relevant, even if we assume it's unaffected by dispel magic. Burning through an extra 126 hitpoints in one round isn't challenging. There are builds that can drop the Terrasque or an Ancient Dragon in one round, there's no way a wooly mammoth or earth elemental is going to put up a serious fight.

The idea of dispelling a superfly air/underground earth elemental makes me giggle.

[Damon_Tor]

Yes, indeed. "This is 1v1".
Simulacrum? casting time 12 hours


Average hit chance of a commoner: 5%
Average damage of a commoner: 4.5 (1d6+1)
43200 * 5% * 4.5 = 1 dead wizard.

... that's 1v1. You can't have it both ways. Either it's 1v1 and the martial character can hit you, or it isn't 1v1 .. at which point, there's nothing stating you even know of the martial character to begin with.
So, genocide is your only option. <which is not even true, as you don't know the race of my character.>

I really don't understand the argument. Why am I fighting 43200 commoners? How is that connected to the simulacrum? Is the argument that spells that summon things aren't allowed in the discussion? What does the 12 hour casting time have to do with it?

[qube]

I really don't understand the argument. Why am I fighting 43200 commoners? How is that connected to the simulacrum? Is the argument that spells that summon things aren't allowed in the discussion? What does the 12 hour casting time have to do with it?you're not fighting 43200. it's not 1v43200. it's 1v1. In fact


This is 1v1
~~ you

Now, if your character wants to spend 43200 rounds casting simulacrum ... by all means ... but since it's 1v1, that commoner should also get 43200 rounds.

After all, this isn't 1v0

[ProsecutorGodot]

I really don't understand the argument. Why am I fighting 43200 commoners? How is that connected to the simulacrum? Is the argument that spells that summon things aren't allowed in the discussion? What does the 12 hour casting time have to do with it?
I think it's meant to imply that the commoner would attempt to attack you 43200 times while you cast simulacrum. Which would obviously work if you let him but there's no rule that says you MUST continue casting for the duration, you would just turn the commoner into a pile of ash with Firebolt.

The point of the comparison though (at least how I see it) is that instead of the Wizard having prepared ahead of time for 2 years it's more fair for them to first meet in the arena having only prepared for the day of battle.

The Wizard is probably still favored in this, but it cuts out ridiculous and nonsensical edge cases where you have a reality bending archwizard who could be and do anything and instead spends his essentially endless amount of time preparing to kill one man.

[Asmotherion]

No such thing in 5e.

By levels 17+ I'd say wish users, since there are so many things you can do with Wish.

But there are so many Builds out there, it really comes down to circumstances and other details (like melee or ranged, or if they are able to fly or not, or who's got the initiative/surprise round, or if they have infinite space to dush away to snipe from etc).

Best way to optimise a character is be really good at one thing (or two if possible), then an all arounder in many other things, so you can moonlight as something else when needed. That's how I like my characters at least.

In 1 vs 1 combat it comes down to rock paper scizors of your build against any other potential build.

[Damon_Tor]

The Sad part of this is... His name is Paulo Henrique. More than one word.
Hahaha

Oh dear, if only the spell allowed me to ask five questions instead of one. Oh wait...


I can tell English isn't your first language, because that sentence indeed indicates in the type of answer the DM should give, as Tavoo notes.

In your interpretation, "such as" would have to be interpreted as "hey, reader, we know you don't understand what "one word" means, so here are some examples of single words."

There are no limitations in the spell on what type of words the spell allows as answers, including proper nouns, such as names. Your preferred definition would require the words "limited to" or "one of the following". Those words aren't found anywhere in the spell. And you know that: you speak English well enough to know full well what words mean and don't mean. You're being deliberately obtuse.

[qube]

I think it's meant to imply that the commoner would attempt to attack you 43200 times while you cast simulacrum. Which would obviously work if you let him but there's no rule that says you MUST continue casting for the duration, you would just turn the commoner into a pile of ash with Firebolt.

The point of the comparison though (at least how I see it) is that instead of the Wizard having prepared ahead of time for 2 years it's more fair for them to first meet in the arena having only prepared for the day of battle.

The Wizard is probably still favored in this, but it cuts out ridiculous and nonsensical edge cases where you have a reality bending archwizard who could be and do anything and instead spends his essentially endless amount of time preparing to kill one man.ProsecutorGodot, in Damon_Tor tactic, they wouldn't even meet to begin with. It's the Sim who attacks the martial character, not the actual caster.

Cut away all complexity, ... and his tactic is the equivalent of spending 10,000 to buy an army and let them go to the opponent's hom & kill 'm. With he difference that he's using class features to acchieve it.

...

Wait ! the Samurai has a class feature to get a bonus on persuasion checks! h doesn't need to buy people, he can use his class feature to convince people!

I see your Simulacrum, and raise you one Elminster.

[Sahe]

What about a conjurer wizard:

Cast a box shaped forcecage (limits the ways others can escape) and buy yourself a minute or more.
Cast Leomund's Tiny Hut.
Win the war of attrition (and Action Economy) by keeping to conjure stuff.
I guess as long as you're concentrating on a spell a DM would rule you can't rest...but if not you could even Short Rest to restore HP and Spellslots via Arcane Recovery.

[Damon_Tor]

Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location.

You are neither a target of nor being viewed by divination magic or magical scrying sensors. The amulet does not cause anyone (lest of all gods) to forget anything about you. You'd have to use a spell like Modify Memory on a divine being. Good luck with that.


ProsecutorGodot, in Damon_Tor tactic, they wouldn't even meet to begin with. It's the Sim who attacks the martial character, not the actual caster.

Cut away all complexity, ... and his tactic is the equivalent of spending 10,000 to buy an army and let them go to the opponent's hom & kill 'm. With he difference that he's using class features to acchieve it.

...

Wait ! the Samurai has a class feature to get a bonus on persuasion checks! h doesn't need to buy people, he can use his class feature to convince people!

I see your Simulacrum, and raise you one Elminster.

Are you arguing for a cash limit, a time limit, or a restriction on summoning abilities?

[qube]

And you know that: you speak English well enough to know full well what words mean and don't mean. I speak english well enough to understand what "such as" means


This shop sells all kind of things, such as toys, vegtables, ...

This sentence doesn't mean it sells, F16's complete with thermonuclear rockets.

"Such as" introduces a list of example to give you what is intended. This list is not "limited to" these examples, but is is there as indication of what you should expect. In the example you can grasp what kind of shop it is, and thus can conclude that fighter jets aren't found in that kind of shop.


There are no limitations in the spell on what type of words the spell allows as answers, including proper nouns, such as names. You're being deliberately obtuse.I'm not being deliberately obtuse. The sample list is quite indicative of the questions being of a binary nature.

You chosing to ignoring that, doesn't mean the rest of us do so.

[R.Shackleford]

What about a conjurer wizard:

Cast a box shaped forcecage (limits the ways others can escape) and buy yourself a minute or more.
Cast Leomund's Tiny Hut.
Win the war of attrition (and Action Economy) by keeping to conjure stuff.
I guess as long as you're concentrating on a spell a DM would rule you can't rest...but if not you could even Short Rest to restore HP and Spellslots via Arcane Recovery.

Fight in a place that you can submerge underwater.

Forcecage (holes)

Gate (elemental plane of water)

Watch the enemy drown.

Give them an out, let them escape into your demiplane (that is nicely furnished). Bonus points if you kidnap their family and put them in the demiplane first to encourage the barbarian/fighter/whomever to go in there.

[Damon_Tor]

I speak english well enough to understand what "such as" means

I apologize for making assumptions; you really do speak English very well and I assumed you were a native speaker. I retract the assertion you were being deliberately obtuse.

[qube]

Are you arguing for a cash limit, a time limit, or a restriction on summoning abilities?Neither. Bar the parts that are wonky, it works quite well.

But likewise, the samurai using his godlike persuasion to get Elminster to whack you, also works quite well.

In the end, setting up limitations is nonsensical. They only restrict the efficiency of game mechanics.
No NPCS? well there goes the Persuasion build
No Prep time? Well there goes the Simulacrum build
100ft starting distance? Well there goes the one-shotting barbarian charger build
...

and that leads to only one conclusion: the victor of the 1v1 is the most powerful build least limited by the limitations.

[Damon_Tor]

the victor of the 1v1 is the most powerful build least limited by the limitations.

Fair enough.

[Damon_Tor]

Wrong, this amulet of proof against detection And location hidden from Divine Magic.
It Beats see invisible because its a Divine Spell. Jeremy Rulling!

Oh. Contact to other plane is a Divine Spell. Oh..

Gate fails

Contact Other Plane isn't looking for you, it's looking for information about you. The amulet does nothing to hide any information about yourself.

[Foxhound438]

Like I said earlier, the question of starting condition, and what do you know, wizards are pretty good at pillow forts.

But if you say... get gated into an arena by some god who wants to see people kill each other, and are subsequently cursed so that if you leave the arena by any means you instantly die, your wizard is going to have a bad day. That's why there's been like 10 of these exact threads in my memory and they never go anywhere, because the starting conditions are either vague or totally absent (like this one). You have to answer the question of "why are you fighting", as well as "why does it have to be 1v1", and with neither answered it's just a bunch of people arguing on different assumed premises.

[Damon_Tor]

It hidden from Divine Magic. ALL them. It doesnt Care about what the Divine Magic does.
By RAW And RAI It bypasses the contact other plane.

Gate cheese stopped by an uncommom item?

I assume you mean "divination" magic.

So is your position that someone buffed with Foresight wouldn't have advantage on attacks vs someone wearing that amulet? It's divination magic, after all.

[Galactkaktus]

Here is my take on the high level caster vs high level martial discussion. The default must be that the caster has the advantage, the versatility of spellcasting is just too much to make it a fair fight if they even get one turn they can choose the right tool for the occasion and make it an upphill battle for the martial character.

Which leads me to the conclusion that for the martial to have a good chance to win he/she needs to.

1 Win initiative
2 have a reliable way of stoping the caster from casting spells by either straight up killing him or some kind of cc

With those points i think that monk is probably the best candidate to go up against a caster because.

1 They are dex based increases the odds of winning initiative
2 Stun is a great condition to inflict in order to stop casters from using spells
3 The extra movement is very useful in catching opponents.
4 Diamond soul can be useful against casters(admittedly if you ever get to use this feature where it counts it's probably because the caster has done something wrong).

My general plan would be to win initiative stun him and keeping him stunned until he dies.

I think that is the best martial option to go 1v1 vs a caster. That being said i still think that all wish users should be the favorites since they can prepare in so many ways most notably contingency and simulacrum(and lets be real if you are a high level caster with access to the simulacrum spell you will strive to always have one.)

[Unoriginal]

The default must be that the caster has the advantage, the versatility of spellcasting is just too much to make it a fair fight if they even get one turn they can choose the right tool for the occasion and make it an upphill battle for the martial character.

No, that is not the default, nor is it a "must".


That being said i still think that all wish users should be the favorites since they can prepare in so many ways most notably contingency and simulacrum(and lets be real if you are a high level caster with access to the simulacrum spell you will strive to always have one.)

Yes, if you're giving them advantages the other side doesn't get, like time to prepare for this foe in particular or having preparations outside of the battle, the caster has more chances of winning.

It's always the same old argument. "Casters win because of course they can prepare for everything before anything happen."

[Galactkaktus]

"Casters win because of course they can prepare for everything before anything happen."

My argument was more that spell casting was versatile. I added some things that i didn't find strange to have regardless of if you knew if you were going to fight someone or not i purposly avoided very specific preparations for extreme edge cases. I don't find a simulacrum to be wierd to have for a high level caster regardless if he is going to fight or not. I don't find it wierd to have some kind of contingency spell either regardless if you expect to fight or not cast it threee times a month and you have that insurance. How am i covering everything with just two spells that i find to be extremly reasonable to kepp up regardless of your expectations for the forseable future?

[Unoriginal]

My argument was more that spell casting was versatile. I added some things that i didn't find strange to have regardless of if you knew if you were going to fight someone or not i purposly avoided very specific preparations for extreme edge cases. I don't find a simulacrum to be wierd to have for a high level caster regardless if he is going to fight or not. I don't find it wierd to have some kind of contingency spell either regardless if you expect to fight or not cast it threee times a month and you have that insurance. How am i covering everything with just two spells that i find to be extremly reasonable to kepp up regardless of your expectations for the forseable future?

You are not covering everything with just two spells. However, you quite explicitly said the casters can "prepare in so many ways" and then put those two spells as notable examples.

That's quite a different argument than only saying "it's reasonable an high level wizard would have those two precautions up at all times", which you also said later.

Regardless, if you're giving casters preparation time, any preparation time, including casting spells in advance, then you must give the martials the same, otherwise the challenge conditions are not equal. And then it becomes a game of "nuh-hu your guy can't do that" because there are too many variables of what characters in a world would be able to do. Who's to say the rogue cannot poison the wizard before their fight? Impossible to say until the world, context and characters are fixed

So the only way to have a challenge with all the classes in the same conditions is if there is 0 preparation, 0 before-combat-actions-to-get-an-advantage, etc.

[Galactkaktus]

You are not covering everything with just two spells. However, you quite explicitly said the casters can "prepare in so many ways

And did you notice how i refrained from naming anything except things i thought was reasonable to have almost always. It really was a point but it was a minor point my main point was how dangerous spellcasting is because of it's versatility. If the caster gets to cast a spell and have a list of spells with multiple angles to approach a combat they should have some spell that gives them the advantage.

[Galactkaktus]

Regardless, if you're giving casters preparation time, any preparation time, including casting spells in advance, then you must give the martials the same, otherwise the challenge conditions are not equal. And then it becomes a game of "nuh-hu your guy can't do that" because there are too many variables of what characters in a world would be able to do. Who's to say the rogue cannot poison the wizard before their fight? Impossible to say until the world, context and characters are fixed

So the only way to have a challenge with all the classes in the same conditions is if there is 0 preparation, 0 before-combat-actions-to-get-an-advantage, etc.

I don't agree since the contingency and simulacrum is for basicly anything not a preparation for this fight while the poisioning is specificly for the fight. So in that case the rogue have had more time to prepare for the fight than the wizard.

[Ganymede]

My question is simple, What type of character is best in a 1v1 situation?

It wholly depends on what type of 1v1 situation it is.

For instance, if two PCs were engaged in a cooking competition, then proficiency in cooks' utensils would be vital. You could use persuasion to sell your meal to the judges, sleight of hand to sneak bad ingredients into your opponent's meal, and investigate to ensure you're using only the best possible ingredients.

Likewise, class abilities could be super useful. Any number of spells could be put to good use: presitigitation for flavoring, purify food and drink for obvious reasons, and it is hard to beat a heroes' feast in a cooking contest.