How much is spell breadth worth?

[Tvtyrant]

I'm currently working on a Hedgemage (archetypes are Hedgeknight and Hedgewizard) homebrew and I am wondering how much free spell list access is worth.

The basic idea I am running right now is basically Ranger casting progression with some cantrips.

What makes it unique is a pool of Prodigy Points that can do a couple things. When casting a spell you can spend prodigy points equal to that spells' level to instead cast any other spell of that level, or you can spend 1 to swap a cantrip to a different cantrip for the day.

The class gets 1 prodigy point/2 levels.

What I want help on is how wide should the access be? Limiting the class to level 5 spells and below makes me think open access to all lists should be okay, especially with limited uses, but advice would be appreciated.

[lunaticfringe]

I would just build a custom spell list because you are developing a new Base Class. Pick any spell just seems like lazy design even though I have no problems with it mechanically.

Half Casters (Ranger/Paladin) don't get Cantrip access. I wouldn't add that to the Base Class but it sounds like it would fit with the Hedge Wizard Subclass.

[Tvtyrant]

I would just build a custom spell list because you are developing a new Base Class. Pick any spell just seems like lazy design even though I have no problems with it mechanically.

Half Casters (Ranger/Paladin) don't get Cantrip access. I wouldn't add that to the Base Class but it sounds like it would fit with the Hedge Wizard Subclass.

The whole point of a Hedge Mage is very wide access to lower level spells. At one point I experimented with it having access to all cantrips but only 1/day each, but it l felt clunky.

Its not really a half-caster in the same way as a Ranger or Paladin, it is a spellcaster trading high level spellslots for breadth.

Edit: I am also working on a Shair subclass, the Shair from Al-Qadim has a similar mechanic.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm currently working on a Hedgemage (archetypes are Hedgeknight and Hedgewizard) homebrew and I am wondering how much free spell list access is worth.

The basic idea I am running right now is basically Ranger casting progression with some cantrips.

What makes it unique is a pool of Prodigy Points that can do a couple things. When casting a spell you can spend prodigy points equal to that spells' level to instead cast any other spell of that level, or you can spend 1 to swap a cantrip to a different cantrip for the day.

The class gets 1 prodigy point/2 levels.

What I want help on is how wide should the access be? Limiting the class to level 5 spells and below makes me think open access to all lists should be okay, especially with limited uses, but advice would be appreciated.

Breath is nice and valuable. But a level 17 character really needs to be doing things appropriate for a level 17 character, not his choice of a bunch of options that were good at level 5.

If casting is your main thing, then at least up to level 9 or so, you need to match the "real" casters as to maximum level effect or have a lot more leveled slots to make up for the shortfall.

Is there any reason this isn't simply a wizard subclass?
Level 2: One of your free spells chosen at level up and put into your spell-book can be from any class list rather than just wizard spells. These non-wizard spells are prepared and cast as wizard spells. You can learn cantrips from any class and gain one additional cantrip known.
Level 6: Up to half level (round down) times per day you may cast a spell from your spell-book as if you had prepared it.
Level 14: On a short rest, you may swap one spell prepared for a different spell from your spellbook. If you have the cooperation of a caster able to cast a spell of a level you can cast, you may add that spell to your spellbook regardless of what class usually casts it. You can put cantrips in your spell-book as if they were level 1 spells, and can "prepare" cantrips from your book and then cast a prepared cantrip at-will.

[NaughtyTiger]

I am not sure I understand the mechanic you have, but:

With that much flexibility, 1/3 caster progression is prolly better balanced.
And consider the sorc point/spell point prices: level 1 = 2 points, level 2 = 3 points, ....

[lunaticfringe]

Breath is nice and valuable. But a level 17 character really needs to be doing things appropriate for a level 17 character, not his choice of a bunch of options that were good at level 5.

If casting is your main thing, then at least up to level 9 or so, you need to match the "real" casters as to maximum level effect or have a lot more leveled slots to make up for the shortfall

This. Though I think Warlock is a better fit for the Concept the OP is attempting. Decouple the class from having a Patron, make it the Oathbreaker analog of the Warlock class. You could even have a Hex Warrior style level 1 ability that alters the casting stat of the class.

[Tvtyrant]

Breath is nice and valuable. But a level 17 character really needs to be doing things appropriate for a level 17 character, not his choice of a bunch of options that were good at level 5.

If casting is your main thing, then at least up to level 9 or so, you need to match the "real" casters as to maximum level effect or have a lot more leveled slots to make up for the shortfall.

Is there any reason this isn't simply a wizard subclass?
Level 2: One of your free spells chosen at level up and put into your spell-book can be from any class list rather than just wizard spells. These non-wizard spells are prepared and cast as wizard spells. You can learn cantrips from any class and gain one additional cantrip known.
Level 6: Up to half level (round down) times per day you may cast a spell from your spell-book as if you had prepared it.
Level 14: On a short rest, you may swap one spell prepared for a different spell from your spellbook. If you have the cooperation of a caster able to cast a spell of a level you can cast, you may add that spell to your spellbook regardless of what class usually casts it. You can put cantrips in your spell-book as if they were level 1 spells, and can "prepare" cantrips from your book and then cast a prepared cantrip at-will.

I suppose that would be another way to do it.

The Hedge Knight I was going for the ability to swap cantrips over the course of the day. Use Booming Blade on an opponent, get surrounded, swap cantrips as a bonus action and cast Thunder Wave. Later that day swap in Light, etc. The Hedge Knight doesn't really need spellslots, the concept is a martial that can change cantrips.

The Hedge Wizard works the same way but can swap in spells. One of the rules I was thinking of implementing was "never cast the same spell 2x day," but having access to a lot of lower level silver bullets appeals to me as a player.

[Willie the Duck]

The whole point of a Hedge Mage is very wide access to lower level spells. At one point I experimented with it having access to all cantrips but only 1/day each, but it l felt clunky.

You will note how constrained most other 'pick a spell, any spell' mechanics are -- it's the defining bard spellcasting perk, and it's limited to 6-8 over a bard's whole career (with no early access), Magic Initiate is limited to cantrips and L1 spells, Tomelock to cantrips, Ritual Caster feat and tomelock to a very limited grouping of spells, and things like divine sorc gets any of cleric, but it eats into their extremely constrained total # of spells. A mechanic which lets someone pick any spell... at the time it is needed... well, the results are going to lead to some very powerful combinations. Off the top of my head, I can't foresee anything worse than some of what is already out there (wish+simulacrum of course, but also look at the Ravinca thread).

That answer to the original question is: probably 90% of what you can do is only 'a quite powerful class ability,' but that last 10% shoves it into 'one of the better class abilities ever suggested' level, and probably the only real ability of note you can give this class.


Edit: I am also working on a Shair subclass, the Shair from Al-Qadim has a similar mechanic.

And, if you will recall, the 3e Shair (along with the Spell-to-power erudite, I believe it was called) were a few of the obscure 3e classes which took an already balance-problematic edition and broke it over its knee.

I'm not saying don't do it (after all, the right party is already going to have all of these spells anyways), just be prepared for your canniest/best-at-system-cracking player to take this and run with it.

[Doug Lampert]

I suppose that would be another way to do it.

The Hedge Knight I was going for the ability to swap cantrips over the course of the day. Use Booming Blade on an opponent, get surrounded, swap cantrips as a bonus action and cast Thunder Wave. Later that day swap in Light, etc. The Hedge Knight doesn't really need spellslots, the concept is a martial that can change cantrips.

The Hedge Wizard works the same way but can swap in spells. One of the rules I was thinking of implementing was "never cast the same spell 2x day," but having access to a lot of lower level silver bullets appeals to me as a player.

The ability to quickly swap cantrips will, in play, probably look a lot like having a much larger set of cantrips available. So I'd drop the "swap" mechanism and just give him lots of cantrips known. It's simpler, gives the ability to cast the specific spell you need when you need it (which is what you want), and isn't that much stronger in actual play.

It also avoids having the character suddenly gain a new ability every time a new cantrip is published.

Lots of lower level silver bullets runs into the problem that when it comes to damage and conditions the higher level spells do the same sorts of things as low level spells and do them better. You could give someone half caster slots, and say that he has full access to EVERY leveled spell in the game, and I'm not at all sure he'd be as versatile at level 6 as a level 6 wizard.

"Half-caster with all leveled spells" has two level 2 slots and 4 level 1 slots. But I'll have about 9 spells prepared, and 3 level three slots and one more level 2 slot, and if we need a fireball or fly then my versatility trumps your versatility. When you need to teleport, or planeshift, or fly, or cast hold person on multiple targets at once, or whatever, then higher level is more versatile. (Edited to add: Note that the wizard by this level has about as many prepared spells as slots, if I give him 20 Int he can quite possibly never throw the same spell twice in one day while still using all his slots and his arcane recovery.)

If you really want more low level spells, I'd start with something like the DMG spell-points and give your full caster type a number of spell-points based on a full caster, but limited in use to no higher a level than what a half-caster would cast from a very large list of prepared spells. Look at a 50/50 cleric/wizard multiclass for appropriate features and balance. The spell-points are more versatile, so that's a significant edge, but losing the top level slots hurts some.

[Tvtyrant]

On the Hedgeknight: What about selecting cantrips daily and having a moderate amount? I like regular choices :p

Okay I hear you on the Hedge Mage. None of those really do what I want so I will go back and think about it.