Thug (Strength-Rogue Archetype)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Thug

Brutal Combat: At 3rd level, you gain proficiency in medium armor, shields, and with all martial melee weapons. You may apply your Sneak Attack damage while wielding any melee weapon, not just ones with the finesse tag. Finally, you may use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to attempt to grab a foe or shove them 5ft. If you successfully shove a target, you may move 5ft to remain adjacent to them without provoking opportunity attacks, and you may apply your Sneak Attack damage to them until the end of your turn.

At 9th level, you may shove targets up to 10ft, and move up to 10ft to remain adjacent to them.

Rough 'Em Up: Beginning at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in Intimidate, if you did not already have it, and may use your Strength score in place of Charisma modifier when making Intimidate checks.

Harbinger of Fear: Beginning at 9th level, targets you successfully intimidate remain afraid of you for 24 hours. Afterwards their attitude towards you worsens by one step (indifferent to unfriendly, and unfriendly to hostile), but a lingering fear remains. You have advantage on any checks to intimidate them again, and they have disadvantage on checks to persuade or lie to you.

Armbreaker: Beginning at 13th level, if you have successfully grabbed a foe, your attacks against them qualify for Sneak Attack damage even if you do not have a advantage or an adjacent ally. In addition, if you are grabbing a foe, you may use your action to attempt to cripple them. They must make a Strength save, with a DC of 8+Prof+Str. If they fail, they suffer one of the following conditions until they recover hit points:

Broken Arm: The creature cannot use one of its arms. It suffers from disadvantage on Strength checks, can only wield a single one-handed weapon, and spells with somatic components have a 25% chance of failure.
Broken Leg: The creature cannot use one of its legs. It moves at half speed, has disadvantage on Dexterity saves, and attacks against it have Advantage.
Broken Rib: The creature suffers internal injuries and gains two levels of fatigue.

Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again until you have completed a short or long rest.

Brutal Stab: Beginning at 17th level, a creature you successfully sneak attack must make a Wisdom saving throw, with a DC of 8+Prof+Str. If they fail, they are frightened of you for 1 minute, during which time you have advantage on attacks against them. If they succeed, they cannot be affected by this ability again until you have completed a short or long rest.

[theVoidWatches]

I like Brutal Combat.

Rough 'Em Up seems somewhat redundant - you probably already have intimidation proficiency if you wanted to get expertise in it, at this point, and Strength (Intimidation) is literally the example for making skill checks with different abilities in the book. On the other hand, Brutal Combat is already pretty damn good, so it ought to be a ribbon, and having explicit permission is nice if your GM is a real stickler about skills (although then how are you getting permission to use homebrow?)

Harbringer of Fear is missing a sentence, I think. Also, I feel like it could maybe include something like "you can attempt an intimidation check against a target, DC equal to 10+wisdom save, to impose the Frightened condition on them until the end of your next turn".

Why is Armbreaker a Strength save instead of Con save? Also, having it be until they recover HP seems weak for 13th level. Regeneration isn't terribly uncommon at that level.

Brutal Stab is cool.

[lunaticfringe]

Feels like the PF2e Brute Technique in 5e. Not that that's a bad thing. I don't care for Armbreaker either for similar reasons. Solid otherwise.

[Descole]

This looks rather strong.

Shove as a bonus action provide you with an easy source of advantage to land your sneak attacks with a very high modifier (str+prof+prof, at lvl 5 it should be +10). That's gonna be a lot of prone monsters.

With armbreaker grappling becomes highly appealing with the expected +15 mod and you can't roll under 10 (equivalent to a DC 27 save). Once grappled you can begin the breaking dealing better expected damage than a no-advantage attack on most foes and one absolutely crippling debuff on a fail. Every turn of every combat.

I think this subclass could have some of its abilities as X/rest and maybe make the skill checks into saves to get the numbers in line. If not I think it needs less powerful abilities.

[lunaticfringe]

This looks rather strong.

Shove as a bonus action provide you with an easy source of advantage to land your sneak attacks with a very high modifier (str+prof+prof, at lvl 5 it should be +10). That's gonna be a lot of prone monsters.

With armbreaker grappling becomes highly appealing with the expected +15 mod and you can't roll under 10 (equivalent to a DC 27 save). Once grappled you can begin the breaking dealing better expected damage than a no-advantage attack on most foes and one absolutely crippling debuff on a fail. Every turn of every combat.

I think this subclass could have some of its abilities as X/rest and maybe make the skill checks into saves to get the numbers in line. If not I think it needs less powerful abilities.

Shoving prone is limited to +one size category and isn't even a smart play in every situation. Darkness is a great source of advantage for Warlocks but players who drop it every combat are dickweeds.

[Descole]

Shoving prone is limited to +one size category and isn't even a smart play in every situation. Darkness is a great source of advantage for Warlocks but players who drop it every combat are dickweeds.

Shoving is indeed limited by creature size but I'm having a hard time to see when you wouldn't want to shove a creature over the normal Cunning Actions except when fleeing/chasing.

Darkness may be good but it has little to do with a rogue subclass feature and rogues gain more benefit from advantage due to it triggering sneak attack. And I have no idea what players using darkness being dickweeds has to do with this, actually now I'm curious, why are they dickweeds for using darkness (+devilsight I assume)?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Rough 'Em Up seems somewhat redundant - you probably already have intimidation proficiency if you wanted to get expertise in it, at this point, and Strength (Intimidation) is literally the example for making skill checks with different abilities in the book. On the other hand, Brutal Combat is already pretty damn good, so it ought to be a ribbon, and having explicit permission is nice if your GM is a real stickler about skills (although then how are you getting permission to use homebrow?)
That was my thought. I guess I could expand it to a general case.


Harbringer of Fear is missing a sentence, I think. Also, I feel like it could maybe include something like "you can attempt an intimidation check against a target, DC equal to 10+wisdom save, to impose the Frightened condition on them until the end of your next turn".
...you are correct. An action-to-intimidate isn't bad, I guess; most 9th level Rogue features are ribbons, but that's still a pretty weak combat option.


Why is Armbreaker a Strength save instead of Con save? Also, having it be until they recover HP seems weak for 13th level. Regeneration isn't terribly uncommon at that level.
I was thinking it was an opposed wrestling thing.


This looks rather strong.

Shove as a bonus action provide you with an easy source of advantage to land your sneak attacks with a very high modifier (str+prof+prof, at lvl 5 it should be +10). That's gonna be a lot of prone monsters.
Well, yes. But it's also easily available through things like Shield Master. I was sort of looking at the Swashbuckler and Inquisitor, both of which also offer near-guaranteed Sneak Attack.


With armbreaker grappling becomes highly appealing with the expected +15 mod and you can't roll under 10 (equivalent to a DC 27 save). Once grappled you can begin the breaking dealing better expected damage than a no-advantage attack on most foes and one absolutely crippling debuff on a fail. Every turn of every combat.

I think this subclass could have some of its abilities as X/rest and maybe make the skill checks into saves to get the numbers in line. If not I think it needs less powerful abilities.
I mean, Armbreaker is a save, but point it is a pretty nasty debuff... maybe make Sneak Attack always apply verses foes your grappling, and have the save-or-ouch once/short rest?


Shoving is indeed limited by creature size but I'm having a hard time to see when you wouldn't want to shove a creature over the normal Cunning Actions except when fleeing/chasing.
When standing in the frontline with your d8 HD is a bad idea?


And I have no idea what players using darkness being dickweeds has to do with this, actually now I'm curious, why are they dickweeds for using darkness (+devilsight I assume)?
I'm guessing because it also screws up vision for the rest of your team.

[Descole]

Well, yes. But it's also easily available through things like Shield Master. I was sort of looking at the Swashbuckler and Inquisitor, both of which also offer near-guaranteed Sneak Attack.


True but this is advantage, not only auto sneak attack. About +3,5 extra chance to hit, a big deal for someone who really wants to land their one attack. And while headmaster is most certainly effective it forces you to attack first and then shove (if my memory is correct) making it more useful to your friends than you, that and rogues can't take it due to lack of shield proficiency.


I mean, Armbreaker is a save, but point it is a pretty nasty debuff... maybe make Sneak Attack always apply verses foes your grappling, and have the save-or-ouch once/short rest?


This sounds about right. My big problem was with saving against such a potent debuff more or less every turn of every fight.


When standing in the frontline with your d8 HD is a bad idea?


The fighter's Hp is only 1 higher per level assuming save con and the rogue has evasion and Uncanny Dodge to pad that Hp. Their Ac is a bit lower... Actually, didn't realise how bad their Ac was hit by using str, a stealth nerf making them much more fragile. So just prevent them from breaking all the arms and I feel it's about right in strength (+5 mod of course)

[Grod_The_Giant]

True but this is advantage, not only auto sneak attack. About +3,5 extra chance to hit, a big deal for someone who really wants to land their one attack. And while headmaster is most certainly effective it forces you to attack first and then shove (if my memory is correct) making it more useful to your friends than you, that and rogues can't take it due to lack of shield proficiency.
Fair. I'll make it a "pushback and sneak attack" then.


The fighter's Hp is only 1 higher per level assuming save con and the rogue has evasion and Uncanny Dodge to pad that Hp. Their Ac is a bit lower... Actually, didn't realise how bad their Ac was hit by using str, a stealth nerf making them much more fragile. So just prevent them from breaking all the arms and I feel it's about right in strength (+5 mod of course)
Even with medium armor and a possible shield?

[Descole]

Even with medium armour and a possible shield?

Sorry, never saw that. It is usually placed under "bonus proficiencies" so it never occurred to me to check. With a shield and medium armour I would expect this rogue to be about as tanky as most frontliners. This still feels strong, so I would still recomend making the armebraking X/rest just so this subclass doesn't inflict a spell-grade debuff every turn.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sorry, never saw that. It is usually placed under "bonus proficiencies" so it never occurred to me to check. With a shield and medium armour I would expect this rogue to be about as tanky as most frontliners. This still feels strong, so I would still recomend making the armebraking X/rest just so this subclass doesn't inflict a spell-grade debuff every turn.
Already done.

[ATHATH]

This subclass is a viashino or longtooth shifter Rogue's wet dream, as it lets them deal Sneak Attack damage with their unarmed strikes. This in turn lets them easily get off-turn Sneak Attacks without multiclassing or a Scimitar of Speed (viashinos can make an unarmed strike as a reaction after taking damage from a melee attack made by an opponent within 5 ft. of them, while shifters get the ability to make one unarmed strike as a bonus action (thus freeing up their action so they can ready it to strike during another creature's turn) for one minute per short rest).

This also lets a Rogue with the Polearm Mastery feat get an off-turn Sneak Attack when someone enters their reach (they could arguably do this before by holding a quarterstaff in one hand and a finesse weapon in the other, but many DMs don't allow that). With the Tunnel Fighter Fighting Style (and the Sentinel feat), you can mow down hordes of semi-weak enemies that try to mob/surround you.

Note that this is not a bad thing, but it's something that I wanted to point out.