How powerful? Manual of Martial Mastery

[Malapterus]

I can't quite pin down the class I need for an NPC. It seems like I need a Rogue with Fighter BaB & feats instead of sneak attack, which i can get halfway to using UA but that still leaves me with 3/4 BaB.

How powerful of a magic item would it be to make a Manual, in the vein of the stat boosting manuals and tomes, that kicks a character's BaB up to the next notch?

You read the book; any 1/2 BaB levels you have become 3/4 BaB levels; any 3/4 BaB levels you have become full BaB levels. Any levels you have which already provide a full BaB would be unaffected; there's nothing exceptional in the book that a full-blooded Fighter wouldn't already know.

I originally thought that, at level 20, this would be the equivalent of a +5 Speed weapon, but that's not quite accurate. This only gives you +5 to attack, not damage, so the '+5' part would cost more along the lines of an armor bonus. Based on that, the value of this for a level 20 character would be roughly 103k, 73k, or even 27k depending on how you apply the values.

I guess for a level 20 character the best way to parse it would be like it's a Ring that gives you +5 to attack and one extra attack per round with whatever weapon you have, since it's not tied to a weapon & hard to remove. That would be 30k for the continuous haste and 25k x50% for the +5 to attack only, so 67,500 GP. This is ignoring the fact that the bonus attack is at -15 instead your full BaB.

It's also ignoring that it's only this good for a level 20 character and progressively weaker the further down the line you get it. level 1 Wizard or Cleric would essentially be getting +1 to attack for the ring, which is useful at level 1 but hardly an epic item. Also, as a manual, while virtually no one can take this bonus away, it has zero resale value, unlike your Gloves of Dexterity or Bracers of Armor or Rainbow Toe-Socks of Charisma.

The NPC getting this is a party-leader, around level 10, maybe higher by the time the players run into him. Aside from this item he'd have a funky plot-related magic battleaxe and a psychoactive skin that serves as literal plot armor, protecting him from the ambient effects of said magic axe but not doing much else. No other magic items would really be necessary for him.

How does this all sound game-wise? Would you, as a DM, in a high-magic campaign, be concerned if your players looted a functional version of this manual? Would you even consider it allowing a Fighter to go up to 1&1/4th BAB? It would kind of suck for your dedicated melee characters if everyone else could hop up to their level and they could not get any bonus, but I still feel like for a lot of reasons it shouldn't be able to take you past full BaB.

An immediate drawback is that my NPC would have to blow one of his feats to be able to use said battleaxe since rogues aren't proficient with it, but this build has feats for days and it seems easier than getting rogue class abilities & skills & skill points onto a regular fighter.

Another drawback is that d6 hit die, or even a d8 if a Monk or Cleric gets this book. I think the lower hit die and limited weapon & armor proficiencies still make the Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, and Paladin feasible choices in a world where Clerics, Monks, Rogues, and Druids can have full BaB - though I might pick a full BaB druid over a Ranger given the option.

As always, input is greatly appreciated.

[RNightstalker]

It might be simpler to get a ring of spell storing and have a cleric cast divine power and an incantatrix persist it through cooperative meta magic, either through the party or cohorts.

[J-H]

It sounds like he's a boss encounter. Just give him a gestalt or partial gestalt level, or some really good base stats (+4 str = +2 to hit and damage).
You could also do Swashbuckler/Rogue if you want full BAB + sneak attacks.

[Malapterus]

It sounds like he's a boss encounter. Just give him a gestalt or partial gestalt level, or some really good base stats (+4 str = +2 to hit and damage).
You could also do Swashbuckler/Rogue if you want full BAB + sneak attacks.

he's the leader of a party equal to level and number of the player party

[ShurikVch]

The best possible "Rogue with Fighter BaB" NPC is an Outsider bumped up to necessary number of racial HD.
Which feats you're intended to give them?

[Elkad]

The scaling nature, where it's worth more to a 20th level character than a 1st level one is the odd bit.

How about just giving a flat BAB bonus? Comes in +1,2,3,4,5 versions, same as stat tomes.
Since BAB unlock iteratives and feats and PRCs and more Power Attack, pricing it the same seems reasonable as well.

Also means it works for Fighters.

Edit: Doing the same for saves (individually) seems OK as well.
Skillpoints? Applied per class level, the +5 version would be worth 100 skillpoints at the top of your career. But an Int tome would be worth 50avg if they were retroactive (which they are at many tables, and in pathfinder), plus it's other benefits.
Again feels OK.

[Zaq]

Remember what I said in a few of your other threads about examining your baseline assumptions? That. Also that list of questions I laid out when introducing a new rule or a new game element.

What problem are you solving? Seems to me like you have an NPC that you want to be able to do certain things.

Is this the simplest solution to solve that problem? Honestly, I don't think it is. If you're going to make up new game elements to excuse why this specific NPC has better stats or cooler tricks than you would expect a character of that level to have, isn't it easier to just examine why you think this NPC needs to be this specific level?

Again, I get it. I can understand that you feel more comfortable with a framework (like giving the NPC a class structure) than with just working backwards from your desired end result. That's not really a bad thing. But if you're trying to stick to the character-generation rules for this NPC as a way of making it, I don't know, "fair" or something, but you're still willing to brew up new items and new rules and new game elements just to make the NPC match the vision in your head, is that really the easiest and best way to do it? Why add this whole extra can of worms to the game instead of just, like, making the NPC a little bit higher level than you had originally planned? Sure, I get the whole "mirror of the party" thing, but either it's okay to have this guy be stronger in certain ways than an equal-level PC is OR you need to question if it's really appropriate to make this new barely-balanced BAB-boosting book bull.

We keep coming back to this for a reason: look at your assumptions. Look at why you're building the way you're building. WHY does this NPC need to be exactly this level? If it's for balance reasons and you're worried that it'll be too strong to not build him at this level, then act like a player does and optimize within your constraints instead of trying to find justification why a character who's more powerful than your intended CR is still your intended CR. If it's not really for balance reasons but just because it looks nice or because it feels thematic, who's to say that a rival party has to have exactly the same total number of HD as the PCs?

You can also examine a different set of assumptions. Why does this NPC need to be able to hit these specific numbers? Honestly, unless a given combatant is hitting way more or way less than expected, the players aren't going to notice or care if said combatant is on the 3/4 BAB track or the 4/4 BAB track most of the time. If you're trying to stick to PC class structure and you want him to qualify for specific feats or specific PrCs or something, you can take a player-style solution and, again, make some kind of sacrifice to cram a different class structure into the same number of levels, or you can take a GM-style solution and just give the character what he needs (i.e., levels) to get to the end result. Or, again, you can just declare that you're the GM and you can make adjustments as you see fit without necessarily allowing a hypothetical PC to achieve a 100% symmetrical result (there's pros and cons to that, but at least it's a bit more self-reflectively honest, as I see it).

I mean, yeah, you also have the prerogative to to exactly this and add new rules to the game (whether new BAB-affecting items or relaxing prereqs or whatever), and if you're genuinely having fun then I don't want to stop you. But again, either you're actually looking for help with balance or else you're just looking for attention to all your new ideas, and I don't want to assume unflattering things about you, so I'll interpret these questions as actually looking for help with balance. In which case it's significantly less likely to throw off the balance by using the existing tools you have instead of making new ones and then desperately trying to justify why these new rules are fine. Because I notice that trend as well—you seem invested in convincing someone (yourself?) that these new rules you're concocting with the intent of achieving very specific results are balanced with the results that you've already decided you want. Like that big fancy multi-part necromancy spell you were talking about a few days ago that you were very invested in making sure was 3rd level or 4th level or whatever (the details aren't the important part here). You decided that you wanted the end result of having a specific encounter, and you wanted to justify that a caster who only had access to a certain level of spells could have triggered that encounter, so you wanted to believe that the spell you concocted fit within the allotted spell levels. Right? I'm noticing the same thing here, man.

You can see the pattern, right? You want these results, and you want them to be a certain CR or to fit onto a certain NPC that you've already decided is a certain level, so you try to find a justification for why these results are a match for that predetermined CR. But maybe it would be easier to increase the CR a little bit instead of trying to justify why you're creating an item that, by your admission, lets the Cleric eat the Paladin's lunch even more than they already do. (For example.)

Come back to that core set of questions. Identify the problem you're solving. Be honest about evaluating why this solution is a good match for that problem. Be honest about whether this new game element is as simple as you can make it. Really determine if it makes sense to introduce new rules at this point instead of just using what's already here. Are WotC's rules perfect? Hell no! They're awful in many places. There's a ton of times when it makes sense to alter them and improve them, sometimes more aggressively than others. They aren't sacred. But they are the starting point, and you're less likely to introduce new unexpected results (or semi-expected and undesirable results, like making CoDzilla characters even more 'zilla) by not introducing new elements when that's not the simplest answer.

(In this specific context, if you really want a universal rule rather than just making one NPC stronger, you might look at simply increasing the BAB on a specific class like the Rogue rather than trying to offer this all-purpose increase to whoever can get their hands on it. It'll directly increase the power of any PC Rogues and any NPC Rogues you build with these rules and will mean that pure Fighters are even sadder than they already are, but to be honest, it's hard to make rules that buff any class other than the Fighter without making the Fighter sadder, because Fighters are already pathetic, and more importantly, it won't directly increase the power of too many full casters, which you seem to be justifiably concerned about. You're still introducing a rules tweak and still increasing the power of certain characters, but it's not wide-open to the possibility of accidentally buffing the strongest classes.)

[Malapterus]

Remember what I said in a few of your other threads about examining your baseline assumptions?

I've read your posts but I don't think I ever directly responded to them. They are good advice.

My issue with the current campaign is that my players are either new to 3.5 or at least a little rusty, and yet I want to have the whole world of sourcebooks within my reach to build this world. These players will not be optimizing their characters; they'll be making who they want to be, and filling the stats into that mold.

I'm trying to do the same thing with the counter-party. I'm never sure what tweak will put someone over the edge to throw their balance off, so I come by for more experienced eyes to give me their opinion. In this case the BaB thing doesn't seem so bad so long as I dock it from his gear budget at a reasonable amount, I'm just not sure what a reasonable amount would be.

What I am trying to do here is make an NPC who:
Is Drow
Is Chaotic Evil
Leads a party of CE/CN Drow that have only recently been assembled after 10 levels of being loners, and do not like each other
But, is not immediately a big scary armored death knight
But, can still be believable that he keeps these individuals in check
Is lightly equipped with just a battleaxe and some studded leather
and
among a vampire barbarian, a lizard-riding holy knight of Lolth, a ranger that dual-weilds ranged weapons, a duelist, an invisible alienist, and a dread necromancer who prefers quantity over quality, is still somehow the most dangerous member of this party.

His party has a lot of 'flash', obviously, and he does not. He has a special axe that is particularly potent and gives him an edge over his allies, but aside from that, I feel like maxing him out on generic stuff is the way to make him subtly superior in all situations.

I want the full BaB because he can't be someone whose fighting skills are inferior to the muscle, even if their stats might be better. The Rogue comes with a lot of abilities and skill points, and making it a Feat Rogue can give him lots of flexible combat skills.

With all that said, he is still supposed to fall into the category of 'someone you don't want to fight' instead of 'someone who will destroy you in a fight'. Fighting him is no guarantee that you'll lose, but it is a guarantee that it's going to be an ugly fight that leaves you messed up and uses up a lot of your resources - unnecessary combat with him is to be strictly avoided, and that is the primary reason his own party doesn't try to kill him.

I am thinking of trying to climb the spring attack/whirlwhind attack tree with him, to the point that he can intersperse attacks along various parts of his Move action; I think that suits him and he certainly has the feats for it.

I don't remember all your questions off the top of my head but some of them stuck with me:

1. Why do you want to add this?
-As outlined above, to make this skillful, dangerous leader

2. Would you be upset if your players got their hands on this resource?
-That's why I made this post, I am trying to see how game-breaky this is & I may even put an extra book amongst their possessions that my players can loot.

3. Is there an existing way to do this?
-I wasn't aware of any before posting this. Divine Power is an interesting option, and since it's not a terribly high-level spell and also does +6 to a stat, I feel the BaB boost alone is not so powerful. It's a good base-line for me to try and figure out what this is worth. Also, I am now trying to find a way to make my Paladin able to use a wand of Divine Power, since it's not a Paladin spell and she's probably not even going to have any Paladin levels anymore, since I want her to prestige into Eye of Lolth.

Anyway, I do appreciate it when you chime in & I have tried to keep your stuff in mind before I go too crazy.

[Kaouse]

Yeah, just make him a Cleric. CoDzilla is still a thing in 3.5, no?

[bean illus]

I don't want to dampen your creativity, but i think you're working too hard at this. Your guy already has a one-of-a-kind weapon and one-of-a-kind skin.

A thief with fighter BaB is just a fighter with skill points and evasion. I don't think those things are expensive for a 10th level fighter. Just make him a fighter, and he'll have more hp. It'll help more than SA.

If you want him to have more feats, just do it the way every one else does it. Two levels of martial rogue or monk.

Maybe you should consider swordsage with dual lightning maces?

* Or make a martial cloistered cleric, by taking just enough wis for 4th level spells, pumping strength, and finishing with martial classes?

16, 16, 14 - 10, 12, 8
16, 18, 12 - 12, 14, 10 .. drow, boost wis to 14

1. Cloistered Cleric 1-7:
Domains - war, drow, know
2. Wizard1: abjurant acf, fighter variant
6. Seeker of the Misty Isle: TRAVEL domain
9. Ordained Champion: trade Knowledge domain for feat.

10 Barbarian1: POUNCE!
11- 12 Fighter:


1. Weapon focus, Lightning reflexes, OPEN 1
2. Teleport 10', OPEN ff 2
3. OPEN 3
6. Freedom of Movement! fly! +10 land!, dimension door! OPEN 4
9. OPEN 5, wrath domain -OPEN ff 6
10. RAGE! +10 land! Pounce!
11. OPEN ff 7
12. OPEN 8, OPEN ff 9

Make sure to give him an intelligence item to boost his abrupt jaunt.

He has Divine Power, extend spell, keeps HIMself buffed all the time.

have the playground pick 8 feats for this guy

* I'm pretty sure this guy would be a major pain when he began throwing a tantrum.