Purely Psionic Group MakeUp Wish List

[kalos72]

So I am hesitant to ask for opinions here after my last thread but...

I have 7 spots to fill in a group and my group is trying to decide classes, etc.

If you were to make up an entirely psionic group, with ANY books/rules allowed, what would you use and why?

[Nifft]

You could run a fine game with just PsyWars and Psions. You'd need to find a means of healing, but one of the Psion types gets access to Use Magic Device, so it's quite playable even with just those classes and just SRD powers, and a few wands of lesser vigor.

Psion + PsyWar + Psychic Rogue + Ardent (CPsi) makes the game even more core-party-like.

You could add on Artificer (perhaps using the Psionic variant but it's hardly necessary), all Martial Initiators, and the Incarnum classes.

There have been Psionic homebrew variants of the Warlock class; you could do one for Dragonfire Adept if you wanted.

There are some Psionic vestiges. They're stupid, but they'd be a fine excuse for including the Binder.

Are non-magical classes like Barbarian / Rogue / Scout compatible with your game?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Offensive and short-duration powers can overlap, but the whole group should collaborate and take different long-duration buffing powers. That way they can use each other as power stones and manifest as many different powers as possible. Only one person needs inertial armor, after all, maybe with a few power stones apiece in case of party separation.

[Nifft]

Offensive and short-duration powers can overlap, but the whole group should collaborate and take different long-duration buffing powers. That way they can use each other as power stones and manifest as many different powers as possible. Only one person needs inertial armor, after all, maybe with a few power stones apiece in case of party separation.

A single Erudite could cover all those long-term powers.

Less effective than a Psion in combat, but very very effective as a group power-multiplier.

[J-H]

Sangehirn is a Mind's Eye PRC that gives the ability to use your healing powers on others. It also gives DR and fast healing, so it's a decent chassis. You do have to dip in and out to secure good combat powers.
I think it works almost as well for psychic warriors as psions, as PsyWars like the DR & fast healing.... but of course Psions have more PPs.

For a group of 7?
If everyone takes Astral Construct, it becomes a group of 14 at mid and high levels.

-Psion (Metamind if you're going to reach at least level 24)
-Psion (Sangehirn)
-Lurk
-Psychic Warrior (weapon route)
-Psychic Warrior (natural attack route)
-Psychic Warrior (archer)
-Lurk or Psychic Rogue with Elocator for mobility

Swap in a Soulknife with fixes if you want some variety.
Swap in more Psions if you want raw firepower.
Swap in a Cerebremancer if you want some arcane spell availability; Haste, in particular, is valuable for everyone always.

[ExLibrisMortis]

One Dominant Ideal ardent.
One Spell to Power erudite.
One Tactician (Pathfinder).
One Aegis (Pathfinder).
One Shaper Constructor.
One wizard/psion Mind Mage.
One Thrallherd.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I enjoy playing my shaper/constructors with at least one level in skillmonkey (factotum, generally, or possibly changeling rogue, if you focus on social skills) with Able Learner. Shaper powers are insanely versatile, and a factotum/shaper is a vastly better skillmonkey than pretty much anything in the game, in my experience. Definitely better than rogue, though bard beats it down on party buffing.

If gestalt, I boost it up to shaper/constructor // factotum 3/totemist 2/swordsage, which is good bloody fantastic at pretty much everything but party buffing and party maneuverability, really.

[exelsisxax]

So I am hesitant to ask for opinions here after my last thread but...

I have 7 spots to fill in a group and my group is trying to decide classes, etc.

If you were to make up an entirely psionic group, with ANY books/rules allowed, what would you use and why?

Edit your topic to include pathfinder in the title.

Psionic base classes. Because they're all better designed and more interesting than 1pp core classes, and you haven't given enough information to say anything more.

[kalos72]

I am not restricting it to any particular book or system, just psionics.

With all you know, if you could choose ANY class with Psionic abilities, what would they be? It's not rocket science is psionics... :)

I dont mind dips or whatever, although I prefer nothing with 1lv dips of ten classes kinda craziness. :P

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I am not restricting it to any particular book or system, just psionics.

With all you know, if you could choose ANY class with Psionic abilities, what would they be? It's not rocket science is psionics... :)

I dont mind dips or whatever, although I prefer nothing with 1lv dips of ten classes kinda craziness. :PI have a level 21 gestalt build with only 3 levels in a single class; the rest are 1 level dips. Good times.

[Nifft]

I am not restricting it to any particular book or system, just psionics.

With all you know, if you could choose ANY class with Psionic abilities, what would they be? It's not rocket science is psionics... :)

I dont mind dips or whatever, although I prefer nothing with 1lv dips of ten classes kinda craziness. :P

The Basics (good base class only)
Psion 20 - perfectly playable, all varieties are at least solid and at most amazing
Psychic Warrior 20 - also perfectly playable
Psychic Rogue 20 - can trapfind, would have been nicer if it got level 6 powers, but not bad overall
Psionic Artificer 20 - can craft, can trapfind, infusions remain rather awesome


The Prestigious (good PrCs)
Ranger / Psion / Slayer 10 - skillful gish, can trapfind with ACF
Totemist 2 / Ardent 3 / Soul Manifester 10 ~or~ Incarnate 2 / Psion 3 / Soul Manifester 10 - do you want an unpopular subsystem on your unpopular subsystem?
Rogue 1 / PsyWar 5 / Elocator 10 - requires fractional BAB to get the prereq on time but it's a fun combo
Monk 0 / (Psion 20 or Ardent 20 or PsyWar 20) with Tashalatora feat - technically not a PrC nor a hybrid class, just a pair of feats that obsoletes the Monk class
Psion 5 / Anarchic Initiate 10 - like a Wilder except competent
Telepath 5 / Thrallherd 10 - like the Leadership feat except worse better
Warblade / Warmind - sweeping Strikes; good on a Swordsage base too
Ardent 5 / Diamond Dragon 10 - with Practiced Manifester you're able to ignore the two lost levels (mostly)
Wizard 1 / Psion 3 / Cerebremancer 10 - with Precocious Apprentice you don't lose much manifesting to get a lot of casting; pick Hidden Talent as your human bonus feat and you're a [Psionic] character at every level


The Okay
Ardent 20 - benefits from DM fiat changing some poorly designed mantles
Erudite 20 - weak Sorcerer in combat, strong crafter during downtime


The Bad (avoid these terrible classes)
- Divine Mind
- Lurk
- Soulknife
- Wilder
- (PrC) Metamind (ugh)

[MicHag]

Not familiar with all the classes, but i do know Wilder and why would Wilder be considered a terrible class?

[J-H]

Psychic Rogue 20 - can trapfind, would have been nicer if it got level 6 powers, but not bad overall

The Bad (avoid these terrible classes)
- Lurk
- (PrC) Metamind (ugh)

The psychic rogue is nothing special.

The lurk gets a number of useful augments. Starting at level 5 (pretty early), he can do 2 points of INT or WIS damage on hit once per round up to his # of augments per day. Spend more PP, do more damage. A level 10 lurk can hit for 7 points of INT or WIS damage, which is a major debuff on any caster dependent on either of those stats, and with a second simultaneous augment can ignore miss chances due to concealment. Using Improved Feint, with Conceal Thoughts up (for +10 on Bluff checks), and the caster also loses dex to AC for that hit.
I am playing one now and like it.

Metamind's viability depends on what level you are going to. The capstone is 10 rounds of unlimited power. The capstone is available as early as level 15, but your # of powers known and max power level will lag behind until you hit 24 (effective Psion level 20, though ML 24 thanks to Practiced Manifester). At level 24, a psion/metamind is going to be throwing 66 power points worth of manifesting out per round (quicken, schism, and standard action). 10 rounds of free manifesting is 660 power points worth of supernova, and putting Timeless Body up every round means the Metamind is immune to almost everything during that nova.

[Menzath]

The psychic rogue is nothing special.

The lurk gets a number of useful augments. Starting at level 5 (pretty early), he can do 2 points of INT or WIS damage on hit once per round up to his # of augments per day. Spend more PP, do more damage. A level 10 lurk can hit for 7 points of INT or WIS damage, which is a major debuff on any caster dependent on either of those stats, and with a second simultaneous augment can ignore miss chances due to concealment. Using Improved Feint, with Conceal Thoughts up (for +10 on Bluff checks), and the caster also loses dex to AC for that hit.
I am playing one now and like it.

Metamind's viability depends on what level you are going to. The capstone is 10 rounds of unlimited power. The capstone is available as early as level 15, but your # of powers known and max power level will lag behind until you hit 24 (effective Psion level 20, though ML 24 thanks to Practiced Manifester). At level 24, a psion/metamind is going to be throwing 66 power points worth of manifesting out per round (quicken, schism, and standard action). 10 rounds of free manifesting is 660 power points worth of supernova, and putting Timeless Body up every round means the Metamind is immune to almost everything during that nova.

Something I never see mentioned about the metamind capstone, is being on a plane with the timless quality, or similar.

As for lurk augments, they're good, and bad. They require an attack roll, so you generally have to buff yourself a bit first, and oddly lurks have less pp/day than psychic rogues.
So they can still be useful, you just have to work more to maximize using them, and blow a bunch of pp to make sure you hit. Also spending pp to get rogue equivalent SA kinda sucks.

Psychic rogues, are rogues with a few delayed class features, but with a nice selection of powers and pp/day to help them do roguey-ness things without being so item reliant(or to free up certain item slots).
And also by virtue of getting more SA the psychic rogue makes a better combatant and can more easily use the SA/ambush feats while still having SA dice leftover, notable gloom/maiming/precise/staggering strike and Eldritch erosion.

The other sucky thing about lurk augs, lasts only for 1 attack. The only way I found to optimize this is with manyshot.

And ardents, they're okay, but if your use the acf dominant ideal at level 10 from this web article, they can be ridiculous with the right metapsionic feats and other power reducers.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

Edit-i'm not saying the lurk is terrible, it just takes far more to optimize what they have.

[Powerdork]

Cherished highlord (buffs and mezzing), voyager (debuff attack riders and going places), voidheart wilder (healing spec + dispel psionics, Shared Power, fullcaster countermeasures), cannoneer marksman (BIG GUN, USED LIKE A CLUB).

[Nifft]

The psychic rogue is nothing special. Relative to the garbage fire which is the Lurk?

Psychic Rogue is a solidly playable class which has a high enough floor that a new player can make good use of it, and a decent ceiling such that an experienced player can do many interesting things.


The lurk gets a number of useful augments. Starting at level 5 (pretty early), he can do 2 points of INT or WIS damage on hit once per round up to his # of augments per day. Spend more PP, do more damage. Lurk Augments could have been a decent feature, but they're too limited in uses per day and their augments are too expensive for your pitiful power point supply. The Swift activation time means you can't even nova-strike a boss-type monster. You can't leverage the better [Psionic] feats by expending your Focus, either, since your Fake Sneak Attack doesn't work when you're not Focused -- and that's really a shame, since making Touch attacks means you'd hit more consistently and your attacks really need to hit more than most other classes.

Lurk is a fragile class teetering over a swamp of anti-synergy.

At level 10, if you never miss, and you face perfect opponents whom you can take down with 7 points of ability damage -- you can do your trick 5 times per day. That's all the PP you have (including bonus points). You can take down 5 dumber-than-average monsters per day, and then you're done.

Boss monsters are not dumb. That dragon on top of the pile of gold? That mind flayer mastermind(flayer) secretly controlling the chief of police? That succubus seducing the local orphans (she ran out of aristocrats)? The yuan-ti priestess plotting in the swamp? None of them are Int 7. Your one trick will not contribute to that fight, and you're level 10 so you should be expecting to fight CR 10+ monsters, which also includes stuff like golems, elementals, and undead. You won't contribute to those fights, either.

Hell, you can't even use your "deny Dex" augment at the same time as any other Augment until 10th level, at which point you can reliably deliver a melee (ugh) augment attack by paying double. That means you're down to 5+(Int/2) rounds of daily contribution -- as a ceiling, since you're also limited by your pathetically petite PP pool.

Know how many rounds a Psion / PsyWar / PsyRogue / Ardent / PsiArtificer / etc. can contribute? More than 5+(Int/2), I guarantee it.


Something I never see mentioned about the metamind capstone, is being on a plane with the timless quality, or similar. Good point. Maybe there's use for a Metamind on an Epic character who has access to a DM-fiat genesis power that gives you hyperbolic training montage planes.


As for lurk augments, they're good, and bad. They require an attack roll, so you generally have to buff yourself a bit first, and oddly lurks have less pp/day than psychic rogues.
So they can still be useful, you just have to work more to maximize using them, and blow a bunch of pp to make sure you hit. Also spending pp to get rogue equivalent SA kinda sucks.

Psychic rogues, are rogues with a few delayed class features, but with a nice selection of powers and pp/day to help them do roguey-ness things without being so item reliant(or to free up certain item slots).
And also by virtue of getting more SA the psychic rogue makes a better combatant and can more easily use the SA/ambush feats while still having SA dice leftover, notable gloom/maiming/precise/staggering strike and Eldritch erosion.

The other sucky thing about lurk augs, lasts only for 1 attack. The only way I found to optimize this is with manyshot. Melee Manyshot? That sounds very interesting. Could you tell me how you did this?


And ardents, they're okay, but if your use the acf dominant ideal at level 10 from this web article, they can be ridiculous with the right metapsionic feats and other power reducers.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a Yeah the Ardent can be quite good.

Even without that feature, power-reducers can break the game with just bestow power (so my personal recommendation is to remove bestow power from the game).


Edit-i'm not saying the lurk is terrible, it just takes far more to optimize what they have. I am saying that the Lurk is terrible, because the class features work against each other.

Lurk's a Psionic melee character, but can't use [Psionic] melee feats (unless willing to sacrifice the Fake Sneak Attack feature).

Lurk's a manifester, but needs to save PP for melee attacks.

Lurk has a PsyWar-ish low-PP manifester, but the PsyWar compensates for their power point paucity by having a lot of day-long buffs (claws of the beast for example). Lurk has a lot of instant-use powers and must also spend PP to make their melee attacks worthwhile.

[Menzath]

Melee Manyshot? That sounds very interesting. Could you tell me how you did this?


Pg 55 has the feat lurk augment, ranged. Let's you apply a select few augments to be used with a ranged weapon, and only within 30ft. Granted the selection of what you can use still sucks, but it's much better than melee.

I kinda wanna try and make a melee manyshot build now...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I kinda wanna try and make a melee manyshot build now...Bloodstorm blade?

Alternatively, enhance your unarmed strike with throwing and distance? Add exit wounds to do what this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863) does. Throw your body at enemies and asplode out of them in a shower of Kool-Aid-like blood and gore.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/343/283/870.gif

[Rebel7284]

7 Thrallherds can fit all party roles several times over :smallcool:

On a more serious note, Psionics is almost as powerful as magic, and you can do most things with Psionic characters.

- Google King of Smack for an incredible psywar character.
- Power Link Shards allow you to augment to 3x your HD. Amazing for high power games.
- Spell to Power Erutide allows spells to be turned into powers. A bit wonky of a class, but still, extremely powerful.
- Wilder is bad because of an extremely anemic number of powers. There are a couple of ways to expand it, Mantled Wilder, etc. but ultimately, while wild surge can be nice, it's not worth the lost flexibility AND it gets more and more dangerous to use to its full effect as you level. To add insult to injury, you can be a Psion and go into Anarchic Initiate and get most of the benefits of being a Wilder without the drawbacks. You can certainly make a Wilder powerful because powers are powerful, but it will be powerful in the same way that Divine Crusader is.
- Bestow Power can easily be used to make sure that everyone in the party is always at full PP. Whether or not that's a bug or a feature depends on the nature and power level of the game.

There are dozens of interesting and fun parties that can be done, but what comes to mind for me would be something like:
1 Psychic Rogue or the Ranger/Slayer Gish for Trapfinding
1 Spell to Power Erutide to give access to all spells in the game (subject to some shenanigans to convert divine to arcane)
0-2 Psychic Warriors for eating face. Can be replaced by Astral Construct, but some players like melee...
3-5 Psions or customized Ardents of various builds, whatever appeals to the players, but access to a lot of possible solutions is nice.

Healing can be done by buying Healing Belts or UMD.

[Nifft]

1 Psychic Rogue or the Ranger/Slayer Gish for Trapfinding


Don't forget that Psionic Artificer can trapfind, too.

Plus it can Artificer.

[Quertus]

I will second the 7 Thrullherders, and raise you 7 Illithid Savant builds - especially if they eat Thrullherders. Bonus points if they're skinny half-minotaurs, and the 7 Thrullherders were fat Minotaurs.

I'm surprised no one has suggested one Egoist, one Seer, one Nomad, one Telepath, one Shaper, one Kineticist, and one Psychic Warrior. Or that they all be dwarves.

EDIT: AFB (they're all the way in the other room) - did I get the list right?

[stack]

Vitalist
Psion (shaper is my personal preference)
Psywar
Marksman
Cryptic
Dread
Whatever

[Zombulian]

You could run a fine game with just PsyWars and Psions. You'd need to find a means of healing, but one of the Psion types gets access to Use Magic Device, so it's quite playable even with just those classes and just SRD powers, and a few wands of lesser vigor.

Psion + PsyWar + Psychic Rogue + Ardent (CPsi) makes the game even more core-party-like.

You could add on Artificer (perhaps using the Psionic variant but it's hardly necessary), all Martial Initiators, and the Incarnum classes.

There have been Psionic homebrew variants of the Warlock class; you could do one for Dragonfire Adept if you wanted.

There are some Psionic vestiges. They're stupid, but they'd be a fine excuse for including the Binder.

Are non-magical classes like Barbarian / Rogue / Scout compatible with your game?

Egoists make pretty effective healers actually.

[Particle_Man]

I had fun with a Warforged Psion (Shaper) with Adamantine Body.

I also had fun with a 3.0 Blue Psion (Shaper). 3.0 Blues get the int bonus but are still LA +0. Blues are a kind of psionic goblin.

[Psyren]

I interpret ANY books to mean Pathfinder too, so I would have a Vitalist and Cryptic in there.