Good Waterdeep urban/social game ideas...

[Willie the Duck]

We are starting over at 1st level for a Waterdeep game. More social than normal. One new players and plenty who prefer to play for flavor than power. Most important I think is that we are playing through from level 1 to who knows (goal is 20, we rarely do before interest is lost). The only other person who I've heard from about what they will do is thinking paladin. My initial thoughts were bard (eventually swords or valor, maybe with a vainglorious self-promoter or even luchador wrestler concept) or a fighter with rogue dip or rogue with fighter dip scoundrel character who is a bit of a charlatan, but mostly a guy who says "I/we can do that!" without really knowing if they can. Perhaps a medieval equivalent of a sports hooligan (no idea why, it just came to me).

Does anyone have any ideas (neat character concepts, conceptual or build-wise)? Just kind of looking for hooks to hang my imagination on.
Thanks!

[Unoriginal]

We are starting over at 1st level for a Waterdeep game. More social than normal. One new players and plenty who prefer to play for flavor than power. Most important I think is that we are playing through from level 1 to who knows (goal is 20, we rarely do before interest is lost). The only other person who I've heard from about what they will do is thinking paladin. My initial thoughts were bard (eventually swords or valor, maybe with a vainglorious self-promoter or even luchador wrestler concept) or a fighter with rogue dip or rogue with fighter dip scoundrel character who is a bit of a charlatan, but mostly a guy who says "I/we can do that!" without really knowing if they can. Perhaps a medieval equivalent of a sports hooligan (no idea why, it just came to me).

Does anyone have any ideas (neat character concepts, conceptual or build-wise)? Just kind of looking for hooks to hang my imagination on.
Thanks!

Maybe some guy like Birdie in Street Fighter? Big street thug/punk rocker, boisterous, like life's pleasures including a good brawl and a large meal, but not a bad guy at heart and ambitious enough to realize doing things legit grant you more long-term perks, like money the cops aren't going to bust you down for. Maybe using a Fighter/Rogue whip build or a Figher/Bard Tavern Brawler build?

Tell me the yays and the nays for this, I've other ideas but I'm not sure where you'd stand about them.

[saucerhead]

I think you want to have guys that can fit into different social circles. Will there be street gangs to potentially high society? It is good the paladin has military and religious connections. You could be a half orc fighter that has some gang connections. Maybe the paladin was a good influence on you and kept you out of the gangs. Anything goes? You could make a kobold that catches rats in the sewers for a living, but is actually an unsanctioned thief that has, so far, avoided the guild.
I wonder if you can make a Ranger or Druid in a big city game?

[Unoriginal]

I wonder if you can make a Ranger or Druid in a big city game?

You can. The Emerald Enclave has a pretty noticeable presence in Waterdeep, for starter.

[McSkrag]

I've been having a lot of fun playing an "Arcane Detective" build in Waterdeep.

Currently he is a 1 Knowledge Cleric / 2 Divination Wizard.

Out of combat he is proficient in 7 skills with 2x proficiency in Arcana and History. Along with the guidance cantrip he's really good at investigating crime scenes and looking for clues.

In combat he is a wizard with portent, medium armor and shield, a wide variety of cantrips and spells for all kinds of situations, and some healing and buffs from cleric.

I plan to go wizard the rest of the way and pick up spells that give him more knowledge like clairvoyance and arcane eye.

[Willie the Duck]

Okay, the paladin became a hexblade, and the rest of the group are 'mage or ranger' (not sure how ranger will work, we shall see), 'rogue or cleric' and 'possibly rogue.' The hexblade said he can be the most front-liner we need.


Maybe some guy like Birdie in Street Fighter? Big street thug/punk rocker, boisterous, like life's pleasures including a good brawl and a large meal, but not a bad guy at heart and ambitious enough to realize doing things legit grant you more long-term perks, like money the cops aren't going to bust you down for. Maybe using a Fighter/Rogue whip build or a Figher/Bard Tavern Brawler build?

Tell me the yays and the nays for this, I've other ideas but I'm not sure where you'd stand about them.

I'm not familiar with the specific character, but the idea sounds neat. My two concepts were some kind of 'ruffian' or some kind of center-of-attention/self-promotion/all-talk guy.

Mechanically, I am pondering a guy who gets expertise in athletics (through prodigy, bard, or rogue -- rogue as a dip if the others go rogue) who does a lot of wrestling if the combat is unarmed/non-lethal.


I've been having a lot of fun playing an "Arcane Detective" build in Waterdeep.

Currently he is a 1 Knowledge Cleric / 2 Divination Wizard.

Out of combat he is proficient in 7 skills with 2x proficiency in Arcana and History. Along with the guidance cantrip he's really good at investigating crime scenes and looking for clues.

In combat he is a wizard with portent, medium armor and shield, a wide variety of cantrips and spells for all kinds of situations, and some healing and buffs from cleric.

I plan to go wizard the rest of the way and pick up spells that give him more knowledge like clairvoyance and arcane eye.

Knowledge cleric might happen. I rarely do wizards, although lore bard might happen.

Neat ideas, thanks!

[Willie the Duck]

I think you want to have guys that can fit into different social circles. Will there be street gangs to potentially high society?

Now that the paladin is a hexblade and everyone else seems to be going roguish, I might be the respectable one (or charletan pretending to be one). Lore bard/cleric might be an idea.

[saucerhead]

Now that the paladin is a hexblade and everyone else seems to be going roguish, I might be the respectable one (or charletan pretending to be one). Lore bard/cleric might be an idea.

For a bard idea with a charlatan background you could make him a bit of a fop or dandy. Good charisma, likes the newest fashions and is always looking for a wealthy woman that wants to give him gifts in return for his attention. None of them know he's from the streets. He has the manners and the style, but no noticeable means of income. Sure he can play and sing, but only for select, private audiences. Only beggars preform in the street. He can fight too, but only as a last resort when dealing with all the angry husbands because it's too hard on his wardrobe.

[Willie the Duck]

Not bad. Fop is good. Mechanically, would they be lore, or valor/swords? Bards are so interesting. They have all this adaptability, yet I always fear they won't live up to their full potential in my clumsy hands (I generally prefer mechanically straight-forward classes such as fighters).

[saucerhead]

Not bad. Fop is good. Mechanically, would they be lore, or valor/swords? Bards are so interesting. They have all this adaptability, yet I always fear they won't live up to their full potential in my clumsy hands (I generally prefer mechanically straight-forward classes such as fighters).

Good question about the sub-class. Glamour bard fits thematicly, but if your group of rogues needs some punch valor/swords would work better. Lore has all the skills, but a fop is generally a bit of a layabout too. He's about others doing the hard work and his role being of more importance, even if it isn't. I can see him spending most of the day walking around with a cocktail in one hand, possibly even dueling or waiting to throw it in someone's face.
I know what you mean about adaptability, bard's have so much variety. On my character, I keep a list of all my bonus action options, reaction options, and spell options just so I don't forget something. Don't worry about missing your potential, just have fun with the role. If you are more comfortable with straightforward fighters, take valor or sword bard. I know there is a bard guide, "players gonna play," or something like that. You should look it up and give it a read if you haven't yet.

[Willie the Duck]

I know there is a bard guide, "players gonna play," or something like that. You should look it up and give it a read if you haven't yet.

I've read it and a few more. They are always good at separating the good from bad, but not best at making a cohesive picture. I think I would go swords bard (if I go bard, and for this character), since they can hold their own in a fight and use fewer spells doing so, allowing me to save more magic for problem-solving. There are still questions like "do I go for some serious combat uses of ASIs (like CE and SS), or just let the hexblade and rogues do that and contribute to combat with my inspiration dice at the end of a sword point?", "Do I try combining expertise and athletics to be a decent grappler (a good alternate combat route for any social character)?", "Do I focus on War Caster/Resilient:Con and be a caster, since I am, after all, mostly a caster?"

Anyways, the character concepts I have (upon which I will hang a class) are:
The Dandy -- either straight up Charleton or half that/half overconfident not-as-awesome-as-he-thinks character. Probably a swords/valor bard.

Keen eyed Joe -- Half Jim Rockford, half Kolchak the Night Stalker: a retired town watchman turned detective. Coward, smart mouth, etc. Probably Knowledge Cleric dip on Lore bard (all the skills, half of the expertly) probably with support feats like inspiring leader or ritual caster (wizard). That's if we have nothing but combat types and skirmishers and I can play a soft support character.

The Hooligan -- the simpleminded, fun loving guy. Kinda like Unoriginal punk rocker character. I'm thinking a guy who likes to push people down and shoot em in the groin with a hand crossbow or something (any dirty fighting concept). Possibly a fighter/rogue hybrid. Otherwise, maybe a less performy bard concept.

Superhero Luchador -- Straight up ham. Another bard or fighter-rogue (this time diving deep into the performance skill, along with athletics expertise). Grapple, leap, pummel, etc. Might be hard to actually build (not sure).

[Willie the Duck]

One real concern I have is that everyone (except the hexblade) appears to be focusing on Dex combatants (possibly two rogues in the party already). So there is a temptation to pick a Strength build, given that no one else might be picking up the warhammers or battleaxes that come up in treasure (or just plain the weapons of opportunity, we might be playing a lot of bust out of jail-type scenarios and the like). Yet those (and heavy armor) are the kind of things you might have to leave off during social occasions and such. A 16 Str/16 Dex fighter might be more optimal than in other situations.

Another possibility is a grapple build. Is it possible? Can you do a grapple-utilizing bard (or fighter-rogue) and have it work well? Especially mostly using expertise in athletics and not relying on feats I don't yet have (it is playing through all the low levels and a slow advancing game)?

[Unoriginal]

Grapple Bard or Rogue can work, yeah. Even STR Rogue is a thing.

It might be a bit out of the left field, but I'm reminded of the GURPS Martial Arts supplement, which had a character be both a Private Detective and a Luchador... Leading to a middle-aged man walking around with a P.I. hat-and-suit combo alongside a lucha mask and a cape, beating up all kinds of martial artists.

More seriously, due to how Waterdeep's laws on weapon work (you can carry them, but most people don't, and you're punished if you draw them without a good reason), you wouldn't have problems with having arms and armors in social situations.

I mean, some places might have a dress code, but a 1500 gp suit is posh regardless if it's made of silk or of steel.

[Unoriginal]

Sorry for the double-post, but I had another idea: the old ex-Watchman.

That way you can play a larger-than-life bon vivant who's used to the streets of Waterdeep and who's also used to the higher social statas of the city too.

Now, you're old and rusty since retirement, but you're still strong, and still know tricks (ie grapple), and you have a lot of old friends around.

[Willie the Duck]

I definitely like the idea. I'd pegged the watchman as my cowardly support detective (knowledge cleric1/lore bard 1-X), but maybe not. A vuman fighter or Str bard (headed towards sword/valor) with tavern brawler would be an interesting take.

[Willie the Duck]

Just got an update on the rest of the party:
Human Hexblade
High Elf Wizard
High Elf Rogue
Unknown race and either Rogue or Bard.


Not sure what that means for me mechanically, although we've committed to try to work without a designated tank. Hmm...

[Trustypeaches]

When I play Dragon Heist I plan on playing a Halfling Warlock conman who hustles for every scrap of food and piece of copper he can get his grubby little hands on, including striking a deal with eldritch entities from beyond the veil of space and time.

[Willie the Duck]

Not a bad concept, but I don't want to trip over the hexblade character's schpiel. What is Dragonheist? I mean, I've heard of it, but is it a caper campaign?

Update:The guy who still can't decide now wants to "wield a whip" so who knows what that's going to turn into (other than flavorful, which I like, but still hard to predict/plan for).

[Unoriginal]

What is Dragonheist? I mean, I've heard of it, but is it a caper campaign?

Depends of how it goes. It's possible to avoid doing any capers.

Basically, the pitch is: a 50'000'000 gold pieces fortune, embezzled by the previous Open Lord before he left forever, is hidden somewhere in Waterdeep, and various bad guys' groups want it. Can you stop them?

[saucerhead]

Depends of how it goes. It's possible to avoid doing any capers.

Basically, the pitch is: a 50'000'000 gold pieces fortune, embezzled by the previous Open Lord before he left forever, is hidden somewhere in Waterdeep, and various bad guys' groups want it. Can you stop them?

I don't know if it is right or wrong, but I've gotten the impression that Dragon Heist is a "shadowrun" kind of thing. You are hired for a job and things get a lot bigger than they started. You want to avoid the big bad guys attention, but frustrate his actions for your own profit. Lots of social interactions and intrigue. Since my group's recent TPK, we are starting this campaign too.

[Unoriginal]

I don't know if it is right or wrong, but I've gotten the impression that Dragon Heist is a "shadowrun" kind of thing. You are hired for a job and things get a lot bigger than they started. You want to avoid the big bad guys attention, but frustrate his actions for your own profit. Lots of social interactions and intrigue. Since my group's recent TPK, we are starting this campaign too.

That's more or less accurate.

[Willie the Duck]

Lots of social interactions and intrigue.

I wonder if that's what my DM has in store for us. Quick, those who have not read or been through the adventure: what do you think might be in there? I suspect at least one red herring/false villain, one use of skill no one expected to need, and one having to break out of jail/into a vault or museum! :-D Anyone else have a prediction?

[Willie the Duck]

Another double post, sorry about that.

New thought:
Divine Soul Sorcerer/Bard (either Lore bard to maximize the support role, or swords/valor to give them some combat ability) -- Has enough cantrip slots to grab Guidance, a combat spell, plus ALL the fun ones (Message, Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Friends), has , well, Guidance to help with the skill checks (on top of bard expertise, jack of all trades, etc.), and can use mind controlling/social spells subtly. Is this as useful in a social setting as I think it would be? I think Either the detective or the fop could be shoved into that mechanical setup...

[Unoriginal]

Another double post, sorry about that.

New thought:
Divine Soul Sorcerer/Bard (either Lore bard to maximize the support role, or swords/valor to give them some combat ability) -- Has enough cantrip slots to grab Guidance, a combat spell, plus ALL the fun ones (Message, Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Friends), has , well, Guidance to help with the skill checks (on top of bard expertise, jack of all trades, etc.), and can use mind controlling/social spells subtly. Is this as useful in a social setting as I think it would be? I think Either the detective or the fop could be shoved into that mechanical setup...

Errr, Waterdeep completely forbid and punish the use of mind-affecting spells on unwilling people. Even with Subtle Spell, you're risking big using them in social situations.

Mind-control spells generally aren't good in a social situation, in any case. They let you bypass some social situations with the press of a button, but create new problems most of the time. Now in combat situations where the enemies are already hostile and there is a distinct advantage to make them hostile against other things, they're useful.

[Willie the Duck]

Well, subtle spell metamagic has some serious benefit to offsetting spell consequences, as does having been someone else (via disguise self or a disguise kit) when you cast it. Either way, if Waterdeep has thought of it ahead of time (is that actual in-5e-book printed fact?), I guess it is less useful. Nice of them to preclude players being inventive and actually using their character's abilities to try to solve situations peacefully instead of just attacking everyone once again (:smalltongue:).

I love the idea of a 'social interactions and intrigue' game, but it runs afoul of my group and the DM. I can see a whole lot of very inventive and thought through player actions being all for naught because the DM doesn't know how to adapt (i.e. reward the thinking, but not just giving away the farm). It is a challenging group in that way.

[Unoriginal]

Well, subtle spell metamagic has some serious benefit to offsetting spell consequences, as does having been someone else (via disguise self or a disguise kit) when you cast it. Either way, if Waterdeep has thought of it ahead of time (is that actual in-5e-book printed fact?), I guess it is less useful. Nice of them to preclude players being inventive and actually using their character's abilities to try to solve situations peacefully instead of just attacking everyone once again (:smalltongue:).

Well, as any sane society, Waterdeep doesn't want people mind-controlling its citizens. The city doesn't have auto-detection of the mind-control attempts, though, so if you can cover your tracks...

Also, just to say, there is nothing inventive about "using a spell in the manner the spell is meant to", and there is nothing peaceful about mind-controlling people.



I love the idea of a 'social interactions and intrigue' game, but it runs afoul of my group and the DM. I can see a whole lot of very inventive and thought through player actions being all for naught because the DM doesn't know how to adapt (i.e. reward the thinking, but not just giving away the farm). It is a challenging group in that way.

...Are you sure your group want to try out Dragon Heist? The module basically *requires* the DM to adapt. It's not very linear nor straightforward, and the villains need to be thinking on their feet nearly as much as the PCs.

No offense, but it seems like your trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

[Vogie]

You could make RDJ's Sherlock Holmes with Monk 2 / Inquisitive Rogue X. You can investigate while also being happy bareknuckle boxing and rocking a (short)sword cane. You could also do a pivot into the supernatural by switching over a monastic tradition.

If you want to be a non-spellcasting combat medic-type character, You could mix Thief Rogue with 3 levels of Tranquility Monk. You can be zipping around, healing the wounded with healing kits & potions, with an always-on Sanctuary, and some extra healing due to your healing hands.

You could be a famous fencer, using Bladesinger 2 / Battlemaster X. Play it like a Spell-less Wizard, with the "spells" being techniques and your supernaturally epic physique... things like Mage Armor, Feather Fall, Shield, Longstrider, Jump, et cetera. The Bladesong itself is refluffed as a fencer's stance, so things like "+Int to AC" is actually your knowledge of bladecraft giving you the ability to parry. You can also pick up Defensive Duelist or blade mastery feats for yet another ability to give that feel. If you rolled really well and you don't really want to have any spells you can do something similar with Kensai Monk 3 / Battlemaster X.

Archfey Warlocks also thrive in Social Settings.

[Willie the Duck]

Well, as any sane society, Waterdeep doesn't want people mind-controlling its citizens. The city doesn't have auto-detection of the mind-control attempts, though, so if you can cover your tracks...

Also, just to say, there is nothing inventive about "using a spell in the manner the spell is meant to", and there is nothing peaceful about mind-controlling people.

In the real world, agree. I am not disputing that this is what a reasonable society would do if they found themselves in a universe where magic works. And also, in real world yes of course consent and such, but again this is in contrast to murderhoboism. I would like the idea of not killing things at every turn actually being rewarded for once. Whether that be through a spell or a skill--and to be clear, I am talking about the game mechanics. I prefer to roleplay social occasions. But in the eyes of the game rules, the difference between using persuasion (or deception, how consent-respecting is that?) to get someone to tell you what you want to know and suggestion is whether one character makes a skill check or the other makes a saving throw. Maybe I'm being a little jaded, but that's probably because...


...Are you sure your group want to try out Dragon Heist? The module basically *requires* the DM to adapt. It's not very linear nor straightforward, and the villains need to be thinking on their feet nearly as much as the PCs.

No offense, but it seems like your trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

None taken, I have the same reservations myself. Mind you, I am not the DM. I am not calling the shots. I don't even actually know that that is what we are doing. I do know that my friend "joe" wants to DM again, that the campaign is taking place in Waterdeep and will be more city focused and less dungeon-crawly, and that joe is... well I guess there's nothing wrong with saying this, he's less 'DM-smart' (how smart he is in the rest of life is immaterial to the point) than our other DM. I have some reservations on how this will go. But, as is the case when gaming with your friends, sometimes you follow them down a rabbit hole all the while thinking, 'I've got a bad feeling about this...'

[Unoriginal]

The module does reward you for not killing everything and murderhoboing your way around, if it matters.

Man, Willie_the_Duck, it's a shame it's not possible for you to be in the groups I DM this module for.

[Willie the Duck]

Yeah, that would be nice, thanks. I hear it has replayability, so maybe I'll get a chance to do it right.

Or... it's still possible I'm completely off base that this is what we're doing next.

Vogie, to your ideas: I've not had good luck with monks, but an Strogue-inquisitive with Tavern Brawler is on my list of ideas I like. As is Archfey Warlock. However, that would be stepping on the toes of the two guys who are definitely going to be a warlock and a rogue, respectively. I'd prefer to hold onto those ideas until another game.

Right now, my best ideas are swords bard charlatan fop or knowledge cleric detective, with a possible just-plain-fighter or sorcerer/bard (maybe not with the mind-control, just with the subtle spell utility) as backups. Unless others have better suggestions that don't step on the group's collective feet. Thanks!

[Willie the Duck]

Latest update:
-Female Human Hexblade
-Female High Elf Wizard
-Female High Elf Rogue
-Male Half Orc Wizard
-me

Definitely thinking a more martial and skill based bent, probably bard leading into swords/valor.

[Willie the Duck]

Oh, gods, I don't know what to do. We have two arcane casters (one brand new to D&D, the other fairly cagey), One melee character with decent AC, a rogue who I suspect will be semi-useless, and people still thinking a bit too much about combat. I'd love to play a bard, or a fighter-rogue grappler. OTOH a half-elven charlatan divine soul sorcerer at level 1 with bless, expeditious retreat, guidance, healing word, mage hand, minor illusion, and prestidigitation would be a great character concept to play around with in a social/problem-solving campaign (regardless of what I did with level 2).

[Willie the Duck]

In case anyone is interested, we were playing the waterdeep adventure. I made a skill-focused bard (set to become martial type or lore as party needed by 3rd level), and died to a nighttime zombie attack (so much for no/low combat I guess) because one of the party's two wizards thought it more important to cast ice knife on zombies not even engaged in melee than to drag my unconscious body out of the fray. All the best design won't save the game from my group (:smalltongue:).

[Unoriginal]

In case anyone is interested, we were playing the waterdeep adventure. I made a skill-focused bard (set to become martial type or lore as party needed by 3rd level), and died to a nighttime zombie attack (so much for no/low combat I guess) because one of the party's two wizards thought it more important to cast ice knife on zombies not even engaged in melee than to drag my unconscious body out of the fray. All the best design won't save the game from my group (:smalltongue:).

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. Where were you in the adventure, though?

[Willie the Duck]

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. Where were you in the adventure, though?

We had performed a rescue mission, which went off without a hitch. We were rewarded with a property, started cleaning it up, and found a goblin and two ghosts friendly). We needed maybe 1000 gp to get startup costs to the business of said property. Our party acolyte rogue accidentally kept blabbing things to city/church of Lathander officials, who kept doing things (like coming in and exercising the friendly ghosts, and leaving us with multi-hundred-GP bills. So we were ~800 gp in debt after the adventure. Suddenly, in the middle of the night, zombies break down our door and attack us. Me and the hexblade go in and engage. Everyone else kinda flails about uselessly or casts area-effect direct damage (the entire group other than I think way too highly of direct damage/area effect damage, especially since the DM has a houserule that any friendly actively engaged in melee with a hostile is considered 'in the area of' area-effect damage that the hostile, since they are really circling and jockying for openings, etc.). I admittedly did make a tactical mistake that took me down, but the attack spelling rather than dragging me out was particularly gauling. Even moreso when they proceeded to tell me I should make a life cleric afterwards to be 'useful.' It is to laugh.