Twinned Spell + Booming Blade + Breaking Movement

[danielcarias]

Crawford has left pretty clear that Booming Blade is eligible for a Twinned Spell Metamagic. Knowing that, I would assume that now you have to make 2 attacks as part of the casting, one against each target.

My question is: Can you move between those attacks?

Through the Twinned Spell text, I know that you must "target a second creature in range with the same spell". Through Booming Blade we have that "you must make a melee attack with a weapon against one creature within the spell's range".
And through this paragraph in page 190 of PHB, "If you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks."

Now, since the "Moving between Attacks" does not restrict the type of action used to make those attacks, can a character move between them, since he'll have to make 2 attacks as part of the cast a spell action (that considering that his target is in range both when he starts the cast and makes the attack)?

[lunaticfringe]

Presumably the 2nd target isn't within 5 ft of the caster and thus out of range of the original spell so it isn't a valid target of a twinned booming blade.

So I says Nope.

[UnintensifiedFa]

I’d say no, twinned spell make it seem like you’re casting one spell, that also happens to target another person. I suppose it’s like scorching ray or eldritch blast, you don’t move because they’re part of the same spell. However, I don’t think it would be game-breaking to rule the other way, and I’d allow either interpretation in my games.

[Specter]

To twin a spell, both targets have to be within range, so moving isn't even an option. The only issue would be if one had Spell Sniper and Twinned and Booming Blade, but that's so specific it would be a table ruling.

[danielcarias]

Presumably the 2nd target isn't within 5 ft of the caster and thus out of range of the original spell so it isn't a valid target of a twinned booming blade.

So I says Nope.

I didn't say that he would be. Let's say you cast the spell in two targets within range. I attack the first. Now, within the same action, I have my second meele weapon attack. That means it applies in the "Moving between attacks" rule, since it says "if you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks.". Now you move around the second target (which was in range when you first cast the spell) and, let's say, flank him. While within range, you then make the second attack. I couldn't find any rule that says that this is not possible.

[danielcarias]

I know that this is weird, because moving while casting is weird. But I feel like booming blade is the only spell that allows this, since it requires weapon attacks instead of spell attacks. Again there are no rules against it.

[danielcarias]

I’d say no, twinned spell make it seem like you’re casting one spell, that also happens to target another person. I suppose it’s like scorching ray or eldritch blast, you don’t move because they’re part of the same spell. However, I don’t think it would be game-breaking to rule the other way, and I’d allow either interpretation in my games.

Both this spells make ranged spell attacks. The rule about moving between attacks only applies to actions that require/allow two or more weapon attacks, which is the case.

[Citadel97501]

I would personally not allow the movement between the attacks, but I do congratulate you on a very effective lock down play-style for a Sorcerer 3+, Rogue 2+, as you could do these 2 attacks, and then fade away with Cunning Action. If they move they take heavy damage from the Booming Blade move. This actually works very well for a Swashbuckler, they already like the high charisma and some Lightning Lures to drag people to sneak attack areas is a great back up tactic if they try to group up.

[lunaticfringe]

I didn't say that he would be. Let's say you cast the spell in two targets within range. I attack the first. Now, within the same action, I have my second meele weapon attack. That means it applies in the "Moving between attacks" rule, since it says "if you take an action that includes more than one weapon attack, you can break up your movement even further by moving between those attacks.". Now you move around the second target (which was in range when you first cast the spell) and, let's say, flank him. While within range, you then make the second attack. I couldn't find any rule that says that this is not possible.

I would ask you to make a General Dexterity Ability check (no proficiency bonus) to see if you were fast enough to move into flanking position before the spell discharged.

You're skirting the edge on what is intended to gain Advantage (I assume because there is no reason to move otherwise). That, at my table, requires a check. This is going to be an ask your DM thing. You are going to get different answers from different people which is why my first post is phrased 'I say nope' not 'that's against the rules'. So...

Go ask your DM.

[Laserlight]

My interpretation: You have to make melee attacks against two targets, each of which are in range at the moment you make the attack.

I don't see why you shouldn't be able to move between attack 1 and attack 2. You're usually going to provoke an OA, and if you're hit I'd make you roll concentration.

[Corran]

The spell though is not just making an attack. Making an attack is part of the spell, it still involves casting. If I cast twinned firebolt, it doesn't mean I bank one firebolt that I can use later that round, the spell just creates two firebolts when cast, which I throw at the same time. I don't throw one and then cast a second (that would be quickened). I just hurl 2 of them when I cast the spell. I can only assume that the same must hold for BB. That means that when I cast the spell, I can just target two enemies with it at the time of the casting.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The spell though is not just making an attack. Making an attack is part of the spell, it still involves casting. If I cast twinned firebolt, it doesn't mean I bank one firebolt that I can use later that round, the spell just creates two firebolts when cast, which I throw at the same time. I don't throw one and then cast a second (that would be quickened). I just hurl 2 of them when I cast the spell. I can only assume that the same must hold for BB. That means that when I cast the spell, I can just target two enemies with it at the time of the casting.

In my opinion, this is the clear intent of the ability. It resolves like this:

Normal case:

* You take the Cast a Spell action.
* When the spell resolves, check to see if there is a legal target within range.
* If not, the spell fails.
* If so, <spell effect, whether attack roll or saving throw>.

Twinned case (changes in bold):

* You take the Cast a Spell action, paying the appropriate number of Sorcery Points to use the Twinned Metamagic.
* When the spell resolves, check to see if there are two legal targets within range.
* If no legal targets, the spell fails.
* If only one target, the metamagic is wasted.
* If two, <spell effect, whether attack roll or saving throw> on each target separately.

The key is that you're only ever casting one spell, and both effects hit at the same time. Both targets must be valid (type and range) at the time the spell fires for it to work. Note this is the same as the ranger's Whirlwind attack--you can't move between attacks there either (at least by default, although many DMs rule otherwise). It's also the same as eldritch blast--despite making attack rolls you can't move between the beams there either.

As always, a DM can rule otherwise and that probably won't break anything. But it's not the default setting.

[Mikal]

Twin Spell says you can affect a second target in range at the time you’re casting the first. The specificity of Twin Spell beats the generality of moving between attacks.

However moving between attacks is moot, because that’s talking about multiple attacks from extra attack, bonus attack, etc.

Booming blade is still a cantrip, except one that tells you to make a weapon attack roll, not that it’s an attack in and of itself. This is why attack abilities such as extra attack/flurry of blows etc don’t apply when using booming blade, and why twin spell does.

In other words, you’re performing the cast a spell action, not the attack action, and follow the rules as such.

[Unoriginal]

you can move between attacks, but Twinned Spells have both twinned effects happen simultaneously, so it doesn't qualify for the "move between attacks".

You can't Twin Spell Haste on someone, then move 30ft and use the twin spell on someone there.

[danielcarias]

In my opinion, this is the clear intent of the ability. It resolves like this:

Normal case:

* You take the Cast a Spell action.
* When the spell resolves, check to see if there is a legal target within range.
* If not, the spell fails.
* If so, <spell effect, whether attack roll or saving throw>.

Twinned case (changes in bold):

* You take the Cast a Spell action, paying the appropriate number of Sorcery Points to use the Twinned Metamagic.
* When the spell resolves, check to see if there are two legal targets within range.
* If no legal targets, the spell fails.
* If only one target, the metamagic is wasted.
* If two, <spell effect, whether attack roll or saving throw> on each target separately.

The key is that you're only ever casting one spell, and both effects hit at the same time. Both targets must be valid (type and range) at the time the spell fires for it to work. Note this is the same as the ranger's Whirlwind attack--you can't move between attacks there either (at least by default, although many DMs rule otherwise). It's also the same as eldritch blast--despite making attack rolls you can't move between the beams there either.

As always, a DM can rule otherwise and that probably won't break anything. But it's not the default setting.

This is an exceptional case, though. This part "If two, <spell effect, whether attack roll or saving throw> on each target separately" consists, in the case of a Twinned Booming blade, in two Weapon Attack Rolls. It's different from Eldritch Blast, which is a Spell Attack Roll. But is it the same as the Whirlwind? In a Twinned Spell, you make two weapon attacks or one weapon attack with two rolls?

[danielcarias]

you can move between attacks, but Twinned Spells have both twinned effects happen simultaneously, so it doesn't qualify for the "move between attacks".

You can't Twin Spell Haste on someone, then move 30ft and use the twin spell on someone there.

Again, I'm saying this apply only to the case of a Weapon Attack because the rule of Moving Between Attacks only applies to Weapon Attacks. If the spell requires TWO attacks, then you should be able to move. I know it is kinda strange to walk between the attacks of a spell, but Twinned Booming Blade is a special situation where you deliver your spells with weapon attacks WITHIN the casting action.

[Asmotherion]

Personally, I use Quicken. It feels less "dirty" or like "cheating" or "cheassy", even with a permissive DM.

[bid]

Twin Spell says you can affect a second target in range at the time you’re casting the first. The specificity of Twin Spell beats the generality of moving between attacks.
Yep. Problem solved.

All the rest is a red herring.

[jdolch]

IMO the real, practical Question here is: Do you roll for each target or do you just roll once and it then gets applied to two targets? (As in: You are not really making two attacks, you make one "spin" or "cleave" Attack)

[stoutstien]

Idk what he says. twinning a spell based on a weapon attack makes no sense to me. Not like BB needs any handouts to preform well.

[lunaticfringe]

Idk what he says. twinning a spell based on a weapon attack makes no sense to me. Not like BB needs any handouts to preform well.

You can Twin Inflict Wounds, how is stabbing 2 guys with a magic sword more nonsensical poking 2 guys with your magic finger?

[stoutstien]

You can Twin Inflict Wounds, how is stabbing 2 guys with a magic sword more nonsensical poking 2 guys with your magic finger?

You have two hands. If a player was duel weilding id be ok with it. It's the fact you are stabbing two targets with the same sword that bugs me

[BarneyBent]

Twinned allows you to apply the effect of a spell to another target within range. IMO the most sensible reading is that when you cast the cantrip, you can still only attack one target, but if you hit, you can apply the extra BB damage (if level 5 or higher) and rider effect to an extra target within range.

So say you’re level 5. You cast the cantrip and attack target A. You hit him and he takes the weapon damage (let’s say 1d8+4) and the cantrip damage (1d8) and he can’t move or he takes another 2d8. Target B is standing right next to A, and he takes 1d8 damage and also can’t move. You don’t get to make a second weapon attack, you just get to apply the magical effects of the cantrip to a second target, and you certainly don’t get to move between applying those effects.

Quicken, on the other hand, allows you to cast BB twice, and you could certainly move between those attacks, and it costs more sorcery points as a result.

[lunaticfringe]

You have two hands. If a player was duel weilding id be ok with it. It's the fact you are stabbing two targets with the same sword that bugs me

So in a game where you can make a copy of yourself out of a snowball hitting 2 guys standing next to each other with one sword within 6 seconds is what gets to you.

[stoutstien]

So in a game where you can make a copy of yourself out of a snowball hitting 2 guys standing next to each other with one sword within 6 seconds is what gets to you.
Well to be fair, the snow has 1500 gold worth of Ruby dust🙄

[lunaticfringe]

Well to be fair, the snow has 1500 gold worth of Ruby dust🙄

Well ****...you got me there.:smallbiggrin:

[stoutstien]

Twinned allows you to apply the effect of a spell to another target within range. IMO the most sensible reading is that when you cast the cantrip, you can still only attack one target, but if you hit, you can apply the extra BB damage (if level 5 or higher) and rider effect to an extra target within range.

So say you’re level 5. You cast the cantrip and attack target A. You hit him and he takes the weapon damage (let’s say 1d8+4) and the cantrip damage (1d8) and he can’t move or he takes another 2d8. Target B is standing right next to A, and he takes 1d8 damage and also can’t move. You don’t get to make a second weapon attack, you just get to apply the magical effects of the cantrip to a second target, and you certainly don’t get to move between applying those effects.

Quicken, on the other hand, allows you to cast BB twice, and you could certainly move between those attacks, and it costs more sorcery points as a result.
This seems right