Paladin Spells: Do They Suck?

[Waifu Collector]

I’m playing a level 13 Scourge Aasimar Paladin of Devotion, and my charisma is maxed out. As a result, I have 19 paladin spells on my list, including ones from my oath (largely useless fluff like Beacon of Hope and Guardian of Faith just blow). I have 11 other spells I need to prepare.

Looking at the spell list, at least on paper, most paladin spells seem to not even be worth preparing. Smite spells are overshadowed by divine smite itself (bar wrathful smite). Support spells are mostly outclassed by bless. I understand Find Greater Steed is amazing, likewise with Banishment and Revivify, among others. But every 2nd level spell just sucks in my eyes and in practice, as do most 1st spells, a good portion of 3rd and 4th Level spells as well. It’s not until 5th level spells does it get really spicy (Holy Weapon and Destructive Wave are fantastic). Also why bother giving Devotion Paladins Flame Strike when they already have an objectively superior spell they can prepare naturally?

So, I’m looking for help with spell selection (My teammate’s are a Totem barbarian and a Valor bard if composition comes into question) and just general opinions on Paladin spells.

[jdolch]

Not sure if you want to actually discuss Paladin spells or if you want advice on what to do. As you already said yourself, the problem of Paladin casting isn't even so much that you don't have great spells but that you already have all these spell slots earmarked for Divine Smites.

And for the few spell slots that you can spare you have more than enough options:
1) Bless, Cure Wounds, Wrathful Smite, Bane, Divine Favor, Hunter's Mark, Sleep and Armor of Agathys
2) Misty Step, Spiritual Weapon, Find Steed, Hold Person
3) Haste, Hypnotic Pattern, Spirit Guardians, Fear, Counterspell, Revivify.

These are all good spells. The bottom line is: You have more than enough good spells to fill the few Spell slots you can actually spare. And you will run out of slots, long before you run out of spells to use, especially since you can cast spells like bless over and over again.

What to do is to multiclass out of Paladin at some point (mostly either at 2 or at 6/7) and go into Sorcerer or Warlock. You get more slots (or shorter reload times), which is what you actually need. Then you get the shield spell which you then use basically all your first level slots on. And for second level slots you get things like Blur, Hold Person, Mirror Image, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion etc.

The Problem with Paladin isn't that they don't get good spells. It's that they are so heavily front loaded and then pweter off into mediocrity that it doesn't really make sense to stay on Paladin past level 6 or 7 (apart from fringe cases or RP reasons). Basically multiclassing becomes a no-brainer at this point.

[stoutstien]

Bless
Find steed/ greater
Crusader mantle if u have at least one party member summoning.
Magic circle. Just wow.
Circle of power. Best buff in game.

[sophontteks]

Paladins have access to some of the best spells in the game, especially when you look at those granted by specific archtypes.
Spirit weapon, counterspell, hold person, spirit guardians, banishment, freedom of movement, misty step, bless, dispel magic, hypnotic pattern, hold monster, wall of force, hunters mark, dimension door, haste, find (greater) steed, zone of truth, revivify, raise dead, death ward. Wrathful smite and ensnaring strike are worth casting for their effects as well.

I'd rate the paladin spell list as above average, which is fair considering they access spell levels slower then full casters.

[Corran]

Protection from evil, sanctuary, dispel magic and freedom of movement, are all spells I would like to have prepared. They are situational, but when you need them they deliver. Same can be said for lesser restoration, though once you hit level 14 it will come up less often (since you'll have cleansing touch for when the cause of one of the effects that lesser restoration can erase is a spell).

Oath spells aside, aid is a good way to spend your 2nd level slots (better than smite more often than not). Aura of vitality is good for out of combat healing when you can or don't want to take a short rest. I'd advise to make a list of all your bonus action spells as well (they aren't that many; off the top of my head, sanctuary, smite spells, shield of faith, magic & elemental weapon and probably a few more). The reason is, that if for some reason you want to use sacred weapon (need a magical weapon, its light source, or just the plus to hit) or the aasimar's racial action, then using a bonus action spell is better than using a spell that takes an action and thus makes you spend 2 rounds of combat not attacking. So that means that spells like shield of faith, which isn't a terrible spell but it is not that great either, suddenly have more value for you because of action economy. Aura of life and aura of purity are both good spells against certain kind of enemies. The first against undead, though the regain hp when dropped is good for any combat in which you are losing; so best when against undead and you are losing? Little bit of a meh spell probably. But the latter (aura of purity) is good against a more diverse set of enemies (although it has some overlap with your aura of devotion and with your aura of courage). I would definitely use it when against green dragons (at least before I hit level 18 and the auras I get from the class expand to 30'), at least that's the enemy that comes to mind when I am thinking of appropriate applications of this spell. There are probably more though, any opponent who has a combination of poison attacks, powerful AoE attacks (so you need to scatter) and inflicts conditions, is a good enemy to use this spell against (preferably if they have all 3 of them, like a green dragon). I like command, but I am not sure if the way we run it (it allows OA's on fleeing enemies) is RAW; nevertheless, turn denial alone can be quite powerful, if you use it against something strong with not a great wisdom save. Plus the spells you mentioned.

Other than that, you can find some minor utility in the paladin's spell list (which applies either in social or exploration), and considering that your only other magic user is a bard, having such spells available means you lighten their burden when they are considering picking spells. Spells like zone of truth, locate object, detect magic, etc, have their place in the game, and they are useful tools for a character to have, especially if we are talking about spontaneous casting.

ps: I'd like for most of the paladin smite spells to be better though (same goes for some other paladin spells, but the smite spells are what sticks out to me). But I don't have a problem filling out my list of prepared spells, and if I have, it is more that I don't get enough prepared slots than not having enough choices with which to fill them.

Edit: I can't believe I forgot death ward... yeah, prepare that as well.

[diplomancer]

you have a bard, presumably with animate objects; cruzader's mantle applies to animated objects. Make your DM hate you and your Bard friend (we are talking about 16d4 extra damage per round, 10 from Animated objects and 2 from each one of the characters)

[Waifu Collector]

Not sure if you want to actually discuss Paladin spells or if you want advice on what to do. As you already said yourself, the problem of Paladin casting isn't even so much that you don't have great spells but that you already have all these spell slots earmarked for Divine Smites.

And for the few spell slots that you can spare you have more than enough options:
1) Bless, Cure Wounds, Wrathful Smite, Bane, Divine Favor, Hunter's Mark, Sleep and Armor of Agathys
2) Misty Step, Spiritual Weapon, Find Steed, Hold Person
3) Haste, Hypnotic Pattern, Spirit Guardians, Fear, Counterspell, Revivify.

These are all good spells. The bottom line is: You have more than enough good spells to fill the few Spell slots you can actually spare. And you will run out of slots, long before you run out of spells to use, especially since you can cast spells like bless over and over again.

What to do is to multiclass out of Paladin at some point (mostly either at 2 or at 6/7) and go into Sorcerer or Warlock. You get more slots (or shorter reload times), which is what you actually need. Then you get the shield spell which you then use basically all your first level slots on. And for second level slots you get things like Blur, Hold Person, Mirror Image, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion etc.

The Problem with Paladin isn't that they don't get good spells. It's that they are so heavily front loaded and then pweter off into mediocrity that it doesn't really make sense to stay on Paladin past level 6 or 7 (apart from fringe cases or RP reasons). Basically multiclassing becomes a no-brainer at this point.

My DM in his infinite wisdom wanted me to go out of sorcerer (because I was Paladin 6/Sorcerer 5 with the GWM feat before) and just go pure paladin. So multiclassing isn’t really an option for me (because I don’t really like warlock) and I don’t want to dip into anything else like fighter. Oh, and I also had to drop the feat so my paladin is basically declawed.

[Waifu Collector]

you have a bard, presumably with animate objects; cruzader's mantle applies to animated objects. Make your DM hate you and your Bard friend (we are talking about 16d4 extra damage per round, 10 from Animated objects and 2 from each one of the characters)

There’s nothing about this post I don’t like, thank you for the idea (and yes he does have animate objects and he uses it eerily often).

[Damon_Tor]

I see divine favor get a lot of hate, specifically because of many of your attacks need to land during a given encounter to make the spell worth more than a smite.

But what I've never really seen addressed is how much it boosts your damage at level 5: because of find steed, you effectively get 3-5 attacks per round: your two attacks (three with dual wielding or various feats) and your horse's one or two attacks, depending on positioning. Your horse gets the spell too, remember: that's a HUGE boost to damage.

Overshadowed at level nine by Crusader's mantle, obviously.

[Aimeryan]

Not sure if you want to actually discuss Paladin spells or if you want advice on what to do. As you already said yourself, the problem of Paladin casting isn't even so much that you don't have great spells but that you already have all these spell slots earmarked for Divine Smites.

And for the few spell slots that you can spare you have more than enough options:
1) Bless, Cure Wounds, Wrathful Smite, Bane, Divine Favor, Hunter's Mark, Sleep and Armor of Agathys
2) Misty Step, Spiritual Weapon, Find Steed, Hold Person
3) Haste, Hypnotic Pattern, Spirit Guardians, Fear, Counterspell, Revivify.

These are all good spells. The bottom line is: You have more than enough good spells to fill the few Spell slots you can actually spare. And you will run out of slots, long before you run out of spells to use, especially since you can cast spells like bless over and over again.

What to do is to multiclass out of Paladin at some point (mostly either at 2 or at 6/7) and go into Sorcerer or Warlock. You get more slots (or shorter reload times), which is what you actually need. Then you get the shield spell which you then use basically all your first level slots on. And for second level slots you get things like Blur, Hold Person, Mirror Image, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion etc.

The Problem with Paladin isn't that they don't get good spells. It's that they are so heavily front loaded and then pweter off into mediocrity that it doesn't really make sense to stay on Paladin past level 6 or 7 (apart from fringe cases or RP reasons). Basically multiclassing becomes a no-brainer at this point.

A good number of those (Hunter's Mark, Armor of Agathys, Misty Step, Spiritual Weapon, Hold Person, Haste, Hypnotic Pattern, Spirit Guardians, and Counterspell come to mind) are not Paladin spells, although you can grab a few of them via a subclass. This means the list for any particular Paladin may be substantially smaller than it is being made out to be by these posts - in fact, the OP mentioned he is a Devotion Paladin which doesn't get any of those if I recall correctly.



Paladins have access to some of the best spells in the game, especially when you look at those granted by specific archtypes.
Spirit weapon, counterspell, hold person, spirit guardians, banishment, freedom of movement, misty step, bless, dispel magic, hypnotic pattern, hold monster, wall of force, hunters mark, dimension door, haste, find (greater) steed, zone of truth, revivify, raise dead, death ward. Wrathful smite and ensnaring strike are worth casting for their effects as well.

I'd rate the paladin spell list as above average, which is fair considering they access spell levels slower then full casters.

Same deal.

[sophontteks]

I mentioned that they were attached to subclasses. It's a major consideration when picking them. But the OP didn't tell what subclass he is for us to narrow the list down.

[Asmotherion]

Between the great spells people already mentioned, some smite spells which can be occasionally good and using your already limited spell slots for Smites, what else do you need? You're neither a Cleric nor a Wizard. That said, you can be a very effective multiclass Sorcadin...

So, bottomline, no. The Paladin Spells don't suck, as long as you know how to use them properly. It's never the spell's fault, it's the caster.

[jdolch]

A good number of those (Hunter's Mark, Armor of Agathys, Misty Step, Spiritual Weapon, Hold Person, Haste, Hypnotic Pattern, Spirit Guardians, and Counterspell come to mind) are not Paladin spells, although you can grab a few of them via a subclass. This means the list for any particular Paladin may be substantially smaller than it is being made out to be by these posts - in fact, the OP mentioned he is a Devotion Paladin which doesn't get any of those if I recall correctly.

The Question wasn't about the Devotion Paladin, it was about the Paladin Spell list. And Oath Spells are a part of that. The Spells i listed are ALL either Paladin Spells or Paladin Oath Spells. For example Spirit Guardians is a Oath of the Crown Spell from SCAG. Armor of Agathys, Spiritual Weapon and Hold Person are all Oath of Conquest Spells from XGtE. So they ARE Paladin Spells. If you pick the wrong Oath for your playstyle, that's really your problem, not that of the Paladin Class.


My DM in his infinite wisdom wanted me to go out of sorcerer (because I was Paladin 6/Sorcerer 5 with the GWM feat before) and just go pure paladin. So multiclassing isn’t really an option for me (because I don’t really like warlock) and I don’t want to dip into anything else like fighter. Oh, and I also had to drop the feat so my paladin is basically declawed.

Oh, you have one of those DMs. Sorry. Of course now that you have this DM nerf blade hanging over your head for the rest of the game, you have to tread very carefully. And this whole discussion has become just a little pointless, because it stands to reason that whatever effective strategy you come up with next, is just gonna get nerfed into the ground as well. I can understand denying certain multi-classes but, please hold my glass while I puke, ok i am back, thanks, denying legitimate (Paladin) feats and weapons is just lame.

You could go Polearm Master and Sentinel. Or just go Sword and Board. Of course prepare to have him start to whine about you getting too many opportunity attacks or too high an AC in short order. Maybe just stick to a wooden sword and a "cold beer"-Spell Focus in your off-hand.

If you're not playing Curse of Strahd or another Campaign with a strong undead (or fiend, etc.) presence, Oath of Devotion is just meh. And I seriously doubt maxing CHA before STR is a good idea for a pure Paladin. Sure you get Aura of Protection which is mechanically awesome but doesn't actually give you anything to do either.

I am NOT saying it's wrong but I am saying that if you are unhappy with how your character plays, apart from the custom nerf, that's where i would start to look.

Vengeance would give you access to Bane, Hunter's Mark, Hold Person, Misty Step, Haste, Dimension Door and Hold Monster. All of which are good. And you get access to Vow of Emnity, which is always good. Relentless Avenger is ok, giving you some movement. Soul of Vengeance makes you Boss-Fight harder and Avenging Angel is just cool as all get out.

But the bottom line still is that your real problem as a Paladin isn't sub-par spells, your real problem is lack of (high level) spell slots. Yes, the whole Paladin class is designed around Divine Smite and ANY Paladin is going to spend 90% of his slots on DS. So it's ok to use the remaining 10% on "maybe not game-breakingly awesome" (utility) spells. Just pick whatever spells you think might come handy in the day and go with that.

So: No, Paladin spells are not weak. They are balanced around the fact that the Paladin is a half-caster according to the book, but actually really a "25% Caster" because you just don't have the slots to actually go around slinging spells left and right anyway.

If you want to strictly have an evaluation of all the spells, i'll leave you with this: Paladin Spell Evaluation from the "Good is not Nice" Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18221175&postcount=5)

Edit: And before the next guy comes along telling me how my advice isn't useful because I am not adressing the OPs actual character, i am sorry, but I didn't make these choices. I think they are far from Ideal, considering that the OP himself feels he is unhappy with the character and the OP SHOULD get the chance to redesign his character after the DM smacked his build down like that.

Also I personally would probably either leave the Group or play a different class, after being singled out like that. Again, "no multiclassing" = "Ok, Fine", but forbidding legitimate feats and combat styles, that's just under the belt in my opinion. The problem isn't even so much the nerf in and of itself. The problem is that the DM 1. broke the suspension of disbelief and 2. now you always have to be in Limbo where you aren't getting too weak, but also can't become too strong, before you get hit with the nerf bat again. And that creates a metagaming straight-jacket that i personally would not accept

[stoutstien]

I see it the opposite. DS is nice but unless you absolutely need to kill something the spell slot is better off fueling a buff. As far as I know pallys are the only class that can't lose concentration due to damage and the laundry list of immunities that they get means if a pally wants a buff up, it stays.

[diplomancer]

its true that the oath spells of devotion mostly suck. It looks like they thought "devotion is the most paladiny of paladins so their bonus spells should make them more paladiny"; which meant that they got some cleric spells that were considered unessential to the Paladin. The other oaths got spells that greatly improved their feel, and are usually very good.

With my Ancients Paladin I've used Misty step many times (once with great effect, making my steed jump in the air and then Misty-stepping the both of us on the top of a barn where we laid waste to the archers over there), even Ice Storm a couple of times (after spending some time talking to some baddies while my Wizards pal Delayed Blast Fireball charged up, it went off, I took a quarter of the damage, Ice storm by me and Flame Strike by the Cleric cleared off the rest of the baddies. The DM was like "you just did about 1000 points of damage in one round" -there were several baddies with more than a 100 hit points each)

With that said, the better Paladin spells are group buffs, the bigger the group the better (Cruzader's Mantle, the Aura spells, Circle of Power, etc). The only level that really sucks are 2nd level spells, smite away with those slots.

[Waazraath]

- No, they don't.
- Plenty of good spells mentioned above already.
- as for the 'smite' spell line: is should be used tacticly imo; normally divine smite is better, yes, but you can use it in combination with a smite spell to take out a pressing threat. Nice extra when nova is needed.
- other archtypes have better oath spells, like misty step.

[follacchioso]

The problem with paladins' spells is that they all require concentration, excluding a couple of them. Even the smites require concentration (ouch), so having a bless or Hunter's mark active all the time is not always an option.

The smites are very useful if you use them smartly against the correct type of enemy - eg wraithful smite against a raging barbarian, or thundering smite to push weak enemies prone. Branding smite is good against invisible enemies and rogues. I've never played high levels, but banishing smite seems very good.

In a way, the fact that you have fewer choices makes it easier for you to manage the spells. Just think of which effects you can inflict, and which weakness may the enemy have.

[Crl1981]

The Paladin Spells in themselves..I would say don't suck, but when you factor in that you get them very late they do.

The Paladin spells are better as Bard spells because you get 5th Paladin Spells at 10th lvl, as opposed to at 17th lvl when a Paladin gets them.

The 5th level Paladin spell "Circle of Power", is amazing for a 5th level spell, it is terrible when you realize that as a Paladin you get it at the same time as other Spell Casters are getting things like "Wish".

[Waazraath]

The Paladin Spells in themselves..I would say don't suck, but when you factor in that you get them very late they do.

The Paladin spells are better as Bard spells because you get 5th Paladin Spells at 10th lvl, as opposed to at 17th lvl when a Paladin gets them.

The 5th level Paladin spell "Circle of Power", is amazing for a 5th level spell, it is terrible when you realize that as a Paladin you get it at the same time as other Spell Casters are getting things like "Wish".

In a vacuum maybe... but that one level 9 spell that a full caster has per day at level 17 shouln't be compared to that 1 level 5 spells the pally has. The pally has a much stronger chasis (hp, ac, saves), healing, immunities, a number of protective aura's that make the party stronger, a pegasus as permanent mount, and it can do a crapload of damage. I'm really happy it doesn't get Wish (or anything like it) at 17 as well, cause that would break the game in half.

You're right about the Bard though, it is a bit weird that they can grab the highest Ranger and Pally spells at 10, long before the classes they were intended for. Then again, it doesn't break anything, which speaks for the design of 5e.

[Aimeryan]

I mentioned that they were attached to subclasses. It's a major consideration when picking them. But the OP didn't tell what subclass he is for us to narrow the list down.


I’m playing a level 13 Scourge Aasimar Paladin of Devotion...

First line!



The Question wasn't about the Devotion Paladin, it was about the Paladin Spell list. And Oath Spells are a part of that. The Spells i listed are ALL either Paladin Spells or Paladin Oath Spells. For example Spirit Guardians is a Oath of the Crown Spell from SCAG. Armor of Agathys, Spiritual Weapon and Hold Person are all Oath of Conquest Spells from XGtE. So they ARE Paladin Spells. If you pick the wrong Oath for your playstyle, that's really your problem, not that of the Paladin Class.

It is true the topic question was not explicitly about Devotion Paladins, however, the question posed in his post was (since he is a Devotion Paladin). For a Devotion Paladin none of the subclass-specific spells you mentioned are Paladin Spells.

I do not disagree that you can get some nice spells dependent on the subclass you take, however, that should have been specified. If you are trying to display a needle, don't surround it in silver-coloured hay - at best it makes your point harder to make, at worse it could be interpreted as you trying to conceal the facts.


Edit: On the other hand, both of your posts were constructive and trying to be helpful, so I apologise if I sound overly harsh in my criticism of them.

[Angelalex242]

Personally, I build my Paladins as Ancients and then focus on defense.

I also keep protection from poison handy, because it is NOT concentration and lasts for an hour. And lots of two legged enemies have poisoned weapons. I usually use spell smites stacked with divine smites to maximize nova damage.

[McSkrag]

Find Steed is great in outdoor settings with room to move. Get some barding for your steed a grab a lance for a d12 attack with reach (+2 damage with dueling fighting style).

Even without the Mounted Combatant feat you can be very effective with hit and run tactics since your steed can dash or dodge while you attack.

Don't forget to buff your steed for extra durability.

[jdolch]

It is true the topic question was not explicitly about Devotion Paladins, however, the question posed in his post was (since he is a Devotion Paladin). For a Devotion Paladin none of the subclass-specific spells you mentioned are Paladin Spells.

I do not disagree that you can get some nice spells dependent on the subclass you take, however, that should have been specified. If you are trying to display a needle, don't surround it in silver-coloured hay - at best it makes your point harder to make, at worse it could be interpreted as you trying to conceal the facts.

Hm ... did you actually read my post? I can't make it any more clear why i think the fact that the OP picked Oath of Devotion is irrelevant to the question. But just to recap:

1. He probably picked the wrong Oath for his playstyle. That's not the fault of the Paladin class.
2. Even with Oath of Devotion there are more than enough good Spells to fill the few slots that are not spend on Divine Smite.
3. I don't think that his frustration comes from having spell slots and nothing to cast. It comes from his high CHA giving him more Spells Prepared than he can actually use, which shouldn't really be a problem at all. See #2.
4. The Topic of this Thread is "Do Paladin Spells suck?" not "Does Oath of Devotion suck?" (Which it doesn't of course. It depends on the campaign and your playstyle.)


Edit: On the other hand, both of your posts were constructive and trying to be helpful, so I apologise if I sound overly harsh in my criticism of them.
Thank you. Your approval means so much to me. Where exactly is your constructive or helpful contribution to this thread? I must have overlooked it.

[Crl1981]

In a vacuum maybe... but that one level 9 spell that a full caster has per day at level 17 shouln't be compared to that 1 level 5 spells the pally has. The pally has a much stronger chasis (hp, ac, saves), healing, immunities, a number of protective aura's that make the party stronger, a pegasus as permanent mount, and it can do a crapload of damage. I'm really happy it doesn't get Wish (or anything like it) at 17 as well, cause that would break the game in half.

You're right about the Bard though, it is a bit weird that they can grab the highest Ranger and Pally spells at 10, long before the classes they were intended for. Then again, it doesn't break anything, which speaks for the design of 5e.

I was comparing spells, as per the topic title. In that context I can see how someone can think that Paladin Spells suck because they are comparing them with what other classes get at that level spellwise. I am currently playing a Paladin, and I am Multi-classing into Divine Soul Sorcerer to help increase my abilities as a Paladin, partly because I think that I can get more out of Sorcerer/Cleric spells than I can out of concentration Paladin Spells.

[coyote_sly]

Personally, I build my Paladins as Ancients and then focus on defense.

I also keep protection from poison handy, because it is NOT concentration and lasts for an hour. And lots of two legged enemies have poisoned weapons. I usually use spell smites stacked with divine smites to maximize nova damage.
Man, if you nova by burning slots that inefficiently you must have one of those one encounter/day DMs. I generally think the smite spells are some of the *worst* uses of slots, but it would be a solid use if you have few enough rounds of combat you simply can't burn the slots otherwise.

[stoutstien]

speaking of smite spells, some are nice to have due to working with ranged/ thrown weapons. a common weak point with the class.
branding smite and banishing smite only call for a weapon attack. niche use but when you get stuck at range its often over looked.

[MaxWilson]

Man, if you nova by burning slots that inefficiently you must have one of those one encounter/day DMs. I generally think the smite spells are some of the *worst* uses of slots, but it would be a solid use if you have few enough rounds of combat you simply can't burn the slots otherwise.

Wrathful Smite is top-shelf, and Thunderous Smite isn't bad for a first-level spell. But yeah, Aura of Vitality is better than any smite spell, Find Steed is great, and it pays to keep a few Dispel Magics around too. All of these are better than Divine Smite or the available 2nd/3rd level Smite spells.

[jdolch]

All of these are better than Divine Smite

No. Just No.

[djreynolds]

Guardian of Faith has its uses, its 8 hours, it can block a hallway or prevent being ambushed in a dungeon. I have used it as a cleric, granted for a paladin it is expensive, but you could cast it before a long rest just for added insurance

I like compelled duel, its a good spell to protect the others

Heroism works well versus dragons

Death ward, like the aid spell is 8 hours, no concentration, good on weaker party members

[Corran]

No. Just No.
Why? Smite is just mediocre damage if you take into account the cost in resources. A third level smite wont deal as much damage as an aura of vitality can heal, a 1st level smite also leads to fewer damage than using the slot to bless, at least on an average case scenario, a 2nd level smite deal less damage than the temp hp that a well placed aid will give you, etc.

From a resource management perspective, smite is useful because it lets you use your remaining slots (ie the ones you didn't use for things that are better value for money, or just plain better). But since you hardly ever know the list of encounters for the day, the practical optimal appliacation of smite simply boils down to this: I am exchanging hits with sth that is more powerful than me (or me plus whoever else is exchanging hits with it), so I pre-emptively spend my resources with smites (which in a void is a siboptimal way to do so), so I don't get dropped. I mean, even if you get dropped, it will be usually better to just spend the resources (if any) after combat to heal yourself, but sometimes you can't afford to go down (eg if the encounter is really difficult, so immediate survival is more important than optimal resource management), or you don't want to take the risk (because of deaths saves, or whatever).

Nova has its place in the game, and being able to nova is a plus, not a hindrance, but you have to know when you do it and when not. Saying that smite is just better than every or most other options is true only like 10% of the time (or more, depending on the number and more importantly on the difficulty of the encounters you find your character into).

It's clear to me that you are overestimating it, but thought I would leave you my reasoning as food for thought. Take from that what you will.

[Nidgit]

Why? Smite is just mediocre damage if you take into account the cost in resources. A third level smite wont deal as much damage as an aura of vitality can heal, a 1st level smite also leads to fewer damage than using the slot to bless, at least on an average case scenario, a 2nd level smite deal less damage than the temp hp that a well placed aid will give you, etc.

From a resource management perspective, smite is useful because it lets you use your remaining slots (ie the ones you didn't use for things that are better value for money, or just plain better). But since you hardly ever know the list of encounters for the day, the practical optimal appliacation of smite simply boils down to this: I am exchanging hits with sth that is more powerful than me (or me plus whoever else is exchanging hits with it), so I pre-emptively spend my resources with smites (which in a void is a siboptimal way to do so), so I don't get dropped. I mean, even if you get dropped, it will be usually better to just spend the resources (if any) after combat to heal yourself, but sometimes you can't afford to go down (eg if the encounter is really difficult, so immediate survival is more important than optimal resource management), or you don't want to take the risk (because of deaths saves, or whatever).

Nova has its place in the game, and being able to nova is a plus, not a hindrance, but you have to know when you do it and when not. Saying that smite is just better than every or most other options is true only like 10% of the time (or more, depending on the number and more importantly on the difficulty of the encounters you find your character into).

It's clear to me that you are overestimating it, but thought I would leave you my reasoning as food for thought. Take from that what you will.
In terms of spell damage, sure, Smite doesn't look that impressive.

But the key value of Divine Smite comes into play through action economy and guaranteed damage. Very, very few spells guarantee damage without a save or attack roll. You will never waste a spell on a failed Divine Smite because it's an instantaneous action upon a hit. And it doesn't require a bonus action or even concentration. That's about as perfect as nova damage gets.

Beyond that, it's just an argument of whether healing or buffs are more efficient than damage. The classic Paladin counter to this is to only spend Smites on boss fights or crits. It's hard to argue going nova with that return value.

[Corran]

In terms of spell damage, sure, Smite doesn't look that impressive.

But the key value of Divine Smite comes into play through action economy and guaranteed damage. Very, very few spells guarantee damage without a save or attack roll. You will never waste a spell on a failed Divine Smite because it's an instantaneous action upon a hit. And it doesn't require a bonus action or even concentration. That's about as perfect as nova damage gets.

Beyond that, it's just an argument of whether healing or buffs are more efficient than damage. The classic Paladin counter to this is to only spend Smites on boss fights or crits. It's hard to argue going nova with that return value.
Well, I was saying all this having what you said in mind already (for example, if I were to compare bless with a 1st level smite, action economy would definitely be in my calculations). The 10% I threw in there is probably hyperbolic but I stick to my opinion, which was basically that good (yet expensive) nova damage is as good as the decision to go nova in the first place is. If there is no or little need to go nova, it's better to avoid it because in a vacuum the gain does not justify the cost, at least compared to most other options.

[stoutstien]

In short. The pally spell list isn't weak

[Angelalex242]

By no means. Blinding smite at level 3 is useful if you can get it to land. Particularly against spellcasters, since most spells involve 'a target you can see.' And mages tend not to have proficiency in con saves.

[LudicSavant]

Divine Smite tends to be underrated by people who don’t account for how good all of its properties OTHER than the raw damage dice are, like the ability to activate on-hit (making waste impossible), avoid anything that hinders Spells, cast off-turn, critfish, use multiple per turn, and more.

All that said, Paladin spells are definitely not bad, and depending on the situation are competitive with smites. There are some really great tools on their list such as Bless and Find Steed. They also have some more situational goodies that nonetheless do a fair bit in some otherwise costly situations (for example, Banishing Smite is one of the few ways to efficiently kill a level 20 Zealot Barbarian). It pays to know your whole toolkit, including the situational stuff.