Help needed IC: to multiclass or not to multiclass

[MLKurze]

Hello fellow forum users,
I would like to ask you for advice concerning the way to proceed with my character. I'm currently playing a lvl 11 battlemaster. His backstory is Folk Hero, a low level nobleman who survived a last stand action while his family fled their feudal territority being usurped by new nobility, all with approval of the Queen. The campaign he's in revolves around a demonic infiltration attempt, before a probable fullscale invasion, and his party is key to stopping it. My character tries to rally popular support against the demon infiltrators through speeches and conversation with npc's, and writing and distributing songs through his contacts in the Lords Alliance. He's also a devout follower of Avandra (we replaced Tymora with her).
The 'problem' is my character is not very succesfull in his attempts to rally the people. His charisma stat is 12 (other stats are: str18, dex14, const18, int10, wis13), so he's not very good at any Cha checks. His skills are Animal Handling, History, Insight and Survival so they're no help there.

What would be a good and logical way to proceed from here on out for my character?
I think the logical step for my character would be to multiclass to bard (or paladin for that matter). So I need to use my lvl 12 ASI to increase my Cha. But I'm not sure if that is wise since fighter levels stack very nicely. Am I missing something here? Is there another way to improve my character?
Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[djreynolds]

You can take human prodigy for expertise in any skill, even persuasion

I don't think you need to multiclass

Now I see you have an 18 strength, awesome

If you use GWM and precision, you know magic initiate could be very nice for a once a day blessing for big battle. The bless spell is awesome, and the guidance cantrip

So right here are 2 feats, human prodigy and magic initiate (cleric for bless)

Cleric is also a very powerful dip for you, knowledge cleric for instance would give you a huge boon.
2 skills with expertise(say nature and history) and spells

I like paladin, but for an eldritch knight who has spells slots already

I would take 2 levels of knowledge cleric, their channel divinity is awesome, plus spells like bless, and 2 intelligence skills with expertise and the guidance cantrip

1 level of rogue would give you 2 skills with expertise, and another level would give you cunning action

So there you go

[Corran]

Taking a rogue level could be another option. You fulfill the multiclassing requirements (STR 13, DEX 13), so from next level you will be able to get proficiency and expertise in persuasion.

You could also go with the skilled feat, if you don't want to multiclass. Wont allow you to be as persuasive (since you wont be getting expertise), but as I said, you avoid multiclassing and you could put to some use the other 2 proficiencies (performance perhaps?).

There are also the skill-related and some race-related feats (stuff like prodigy, diplomat, etc), but I think most of these stuff are UA. If UA material is allowed though, have a look at those.

Edit: Ninja'd by djreynolds.

[djreynolds]

Isn't is just "swell" and refreshing to find players, like a fighter, looking for advice on something other than killing stuff and more damage.

Yeah for the social piller

[Corran]

Isn't is just "swell" and refreshing to find players, like a fighter, looking for advice on something other than killing stuff and more damage.

Yeah for the social piller
Doesn't 'killing stuff' fall under the social pillar? :smallbiggrin:

[LuminousWarrior]

Doesn't 'killing stuff' fall under the social pillar? :smallbiggrin:

Only if you're Chaotic Evil.

[djreynolds]

Doesn't 'killing stuff' fall under the social pillar? :smallbiggrin:

I believe there is to be an errata about that.

[Skylivedk]

What would be a good and logical way to proceed from here on out for my character?
I think the logical step for my character would be to multiclass to bard (or paladin for that matter). So I need to use my lvl 12 ASI to increase my Cha. But I'm not sure if that is wise since fighter levels stack very nicely. Am I missing something here? Is there another way to improve my character?
Any help will be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

I would suggest rogue with expertise or ranger (for skill) or cleric (either knowledge as mentioned or the new order cleric from Ravnica which can get you persuasion). Rogue is nice with riposte. Not if you GWM :) maybe have someone in the party with better social skills disguise then as you to do it? It would be playing on an old trope where a pretty face has his poet hiding in the bush.


Only if you're Chaotic Evil.

Or if you persuade a bunch of evildoers into something that will get them killed... Pirates to pick up "your" treasure chest in the cave where you know there's a greater basilisk.

[Keravath]

There are both mechanical and roleplay aspects to the situation.

Your key to being more convincing is not increasing charisma. It is getting the persuasion skill with expertise. A charisma bump adds +1, while at level 11 proficiency+expertise adds +8.

You didn't mention your race. Depending on race you can take the prodigy feat from Xanathar's which gives you 1 tool, one skill and one expertise. This is the perfect solution if you don't want to break up your fighter progression and want the level 20 capstone. This will make you much more convincing.

Another approach is to multiclass to rogue (1 level at least) or lore bard (3 levels - and requires an ASI spent on CHA).

Benefits -
1- rogue ... +1 skill (persuasion), +2 expertise (persuasion and insight), 1d6 sneak attack (bonus damage 1/turn if you have advantage or a team mate on the same target)
2- rogue ... cunning action ... possibly very useful bonus action options.
3- rogue (if you go this far - pick an archetype ... if your DM uses surprise then the assassin could be useful ... however scout will give you expertise in additional skills ... inquisitive might also be good with expertise in insight).

1- bard .. +1 skill (persuasion) ... spell casting and some possibly useful spells
2- bard .. jack of all trades, song of rest
3- bard lore +3 skills (get other cha skills if you want ... deception/intimidation and one more), +2 expertise (take expertise in persuasion and one other ... deception? intimidation? ... which would be more useful in progressing your agenda?), cutting words, 2nd level spells.

A level 3 lore bard will have all the charisma based skills, will be proficient and have expertise in two skills ... with the cha ASI this will be a +10 on persuasion skill checks. Ultimately, if becoming a truly convincing emissary/negotiator/ambassador is something your character wants and needs then 3 levels of lore bard will give you the most in this direction. Unfortunately, it won't come fully online until you are level 14. However, between jack of all trades and the 4 additional skills you will pick up ... you will become much much more effective on any skill related check or action.

If you want to just have expertise in persuasion then either prodigy if you are human or a 1 level rogue dip will get that right away.

[Pex]

At level 12 you can take the Skilled Feat and become proficient in Persuasion, Deception, and Performance which should cover your need to influence since Intimidation is not your style. If you think you need Intimidation replace Performance. That's good enough for a decent chance of DC 15 for the tougher people to influence. DC 20 should be for those prone not to like you despite being a Folk Hero, but you can make it. In such situations ask your spellcaster friend to cast Enhance Ability on you for Charisma to get Advantage.

[MLKurze]

Hey everyone,
first of, thanks for all your input. It really helps out and has convinced me that there are other options rather then multiclass.

@Pex & Corran
The skills feat does fit rather nicely I think. Can I only use it on skills, or can tools/instruments be mastered as well? Because it would be awesome for my character to use a guitar to hone his musical propaganda :)

@djreynolds
Thanks for the compliment. I like to be the social one, because...

@Skylivedk (&djreynolds)
I don't want the others in my party to imitate me. They're both chaotic neutral and as likely to kill everyone or talk to them. One of them had said: "a civilization is a small price to pay to learn a secretaris". So... no. I'll do the anti-demonic rallying of the npc's.

@djreynolds & keravath
I don't think I can take the human prodigy feat. My character is human, not half anything. His background is pretty much set. But maybe I read it wrong?

So I think I'm going to go either with the skilled feat or human prodigy if I'm allowed. Multiclassing sure is nice, but fighter levels stack so nice I don't think I want to miss out. And what skills would fit?
Persuasion no doubt. But do I need performance or deception? My character doesn't want to lie (the rogue can do that). Maybe should I choose intimidate for him? He sometimes gets angry (especially around stupid people) but he prefers not to.

[Daafmans]

I agree that neither deception nor intimidation fit your characters style. However, have you considered becoming proficient in insight? It's usually a lot easier to convince people if you know what makes them tick...

[MLKurze]

I agree that neither deception nor intimidation fit your characters style. However, have you considered becoming proficient in insight? It's usually a lot easier to convince people if you know what makes them tick...
He already has that :)

[Nidgit]

For reference, the feat is just Prodigy, not Human Prodigy. You need to be at least half human, which you are, in order to take it. So the only barrier should be if your DM restricts expansion book use.

If you do decide to go with Skilled instead, instruments typically count as tools so you could take one of those if you really wanted. Since you already have Insight, Athletics and Perception are both good all-around skills that it never hurts to be good at. If one of those doesn't interest you, figure out what Int-based skill your party doesn't have covered and grab that.

[Finger6842]

Hey everyone,
first of, thanks for all your input. It really helps out and has convinced me that there are other options rather then multiclass.

@Pex & Corran
The skills feat does fit rather nicely I think. Can I only use it on skills, or can tools/instruments be mastered as well? Because it would be awesome for my character to use a guitar to hone his musical propaganda :)

@djreynolds
Thanks for the compliment. I like to be the social one, because...

@Skylivedk (&djreynolds)
I don't want the others in my party to imitate me. They're both chaotic neutral and as likely to kill everyone or talk to them. One of them had said: "a civilization is a small price to pay to learn a secretaris". So... no. I'll do the anti-demonic rallying of the npc's.

@djreynolds & keravath
I don't think I can take the human prodigy feat. My character is human, not half anything. His background is pretty much set. But maybe I read it wrong?

So I think I'm going to go either with the skilled feat or human prodigy if I'm allowed. Multiclassing sure is nice, but fighter levels stack so nice I don't think I want to miss out. And what skills would fit?
Persuasion no doubt. But do I need performance or deception? My character doesn't want to lie (the rogue can do that). Maybe should I choose intimidate for him? He sometimes gets angry (especially around stupid people) but he prefers not to.

I agree, Fighter capstone is nice (IF you think you'll get that far). Multi-class into Bard or Cleric would also be nice though not my choice. If you take "Skilled" I would take Persuasion, Performance and Perception as your 3. Intimidation and Deception both have too much downside on a failure and Perception will also improve utility across the board. The Insight skill you already have will be handy. Also look at the skill proficiency the other characters have since they might be able to use the help action. The Human Prodigy and Determination feats could also be very helpful. You can spend money and time to gain a tool / instrument proficiency if the timeline will fit. Try to combine proficient skills for advantage or bonus on your attempts to convince people. Also try to convince influential people first, then you can have them "help" you as well. If you have a cleric or druid in the party you can also use the Guidance cantrip for a bonus to your roll. At your level don't discount direct bribery, blackmail and the like, though let the rogue do those things :P

If no one has this spell then "Magic Initiate" is another viable option, pick up 2 cantrips first would be guidance (direct help) then choose another like thaumaturgy (indirect help), thorn whip (combat) or toll the dead (combat) plus 1 first level spell like ceremony (social manipulation), shield of faith (combat), cure wounds/healing word (social manipulation plus combat), charm person (potential direct help) or goodberry (combat/survival).

[Keravath]

I think what you would ideally want would be prodigy rather than skilled. If your goal is to be as convincing as possible then you need the persuasion skill and you need expertise. This would let you get proficiency in the guitar as well as expertise in persuasion and you can make up songs to help your cause.

Skilled doesn't really accomplish your goals as effectively.

XGtE p75

PRODIGY
Prerequisite: Half-elf half-orc, or human
You have a knack for learning new things. You gain the following benefits:
- You gain one skill proficiency of your choice, one tool proficiency of your choice, and fluency in one language
of your choice.
- Choose one skill in which you have proficiency. You gain expertise with that skill, which means your proficiency
bonus is doubled for any ability check you make with it. The skill you choose must be one that isn’t already benefiting from a feature, such as Expertise, that doubles your proficiency bonus.


PHB p170

SKILLED
You gain proficiency in any combination of three skills or tools of your choice.

[MLKurze]

@Nidgit and Finger6842:
I'm not counting on reaching level 20. But I'm not certain. Currently my party is on a tight schedule (with apocalypse looming and all that) and I don't think my character has the luxury to spend much time for lessons.
I hadn't considered perception though. Good one. But our Rogue has perfect perception and I think my character really needs to be able to an instrument.

@keravath:
I read the description of Prodigy on the web. The way I read, and my DM reads it that way too, is that it allows to become proficient in a skill, not to gain expertise. In which book do I have to look? What I read was that the character gains proficiency in a skill, a tool and a single point increase in an ability score.
You wrote that Prodigy gives expertise in a skill you're already proficient in if I understood it correctly. My character is not proficient in persuasion or performance. So if Prodigy works like that, it would not give me what my character needs.
I could choose skilled first, gain proficiency in three skills (or two and an instrument) and after that for Prodigy to gain expertise in a single skill.

[GlenSmash!]

@Nidgit and Finger6842:
I'm not counting on reaching level 20. But I'm not certain. Currently my party is on a tight schedule (with apocalypse looming and all that) and I don't think my character has the luxury to spend much time for lessons.
I hadn't considered perception though. Good one. But our Rogue has perfect perception and I think my character really needs to be able to an instrument.

@keravath:
I read the description of Prodigy on the web. The way I read, and my DM reads it that way too, is that it allows to become proficient in a skill, not to gain expertise. In which book do I have to look? What I read was that the character gains proficiency in a skill, a tool and a single point increase in an ability score.
You wrote that Prodigy gives expertise in a skill you're already proficient in if I understood it correctly. My character is not proficient in persuasion or performance. So if Prodigy works like that, it would not give me what my character needs.
I could choose skilled first, gain proficiency in three skills (or two and an instrument) and after that for Prodigy to gain expertise in a single skill.

You use the first bullet point in Prodigy to gain proficiency in Persuasion, now you are proficient in it.

You use the second point to gain expertise in it, which you can do now that you are proficient.

[MLKurze]

You use the first bullet point in Prodigy to gain proficiency in Persuasion, now you are proficient in it.

You use the second point to gain expertise in it, which you can do now that you are proficient.
Wow. Just... wow. This is awesome. The choice will be a lot harder now. One skill expertise or three proficient.
I guess Prodigy will serve me better, but won't I miss performance?

[Nhorianscum]

As mentioned fighter 20 with feats is an excellent option.

As a completely off the wall alternative, 12BM/6Knowledge/2Paladin taking the Diplomat (UA) or Actor (not UA) half feat feels thematic, and (depending on the reading of diplomat vs channel divinity, this is a wonky interaction) can grant 2/day expertise in superpersuasion or superpreformance for 10 minutes while also granting normal persuasion/performance to your secondary

Combat wise protection from evil and good sounds like a dream here (along with the other utility goodies), and smites do the dirty on demons (4/3/3/1 slots lets you pull off a normal slide nova 2/day or just hellmurder something 1/day).

Main motivation for this post was... getting proficency in arcana and religon, as a demon hunter >_< (while also trying to not tottaly drop the ball on BM20 combat preformance, and fitting in not-bard stuff). Edit: pretty much all of this has been mentioned already. RIP.

[MLKurze]

Thanks for all the help everyone! This was really all I hoped for. I'm going tot take this up with my DM.