How to use Thaumaturgist?

[sorcererlover]

I'm staring at this class and I got nothing.

Contingent Summoning: Only use I got for it is to summon a monster as a free action on the first round of combat.
Planar Cohort: I got nothing. Too weak for combat and I can't think of a monster that has useful stuff a cleric doesn't already have at the level he gets the cohort.

And there's the whole thing about the creature you get from Planar Ally is determined by your DM and not you so you won't even get the cohort you want.

You enter this class at 8 but if you're summoning you're gonna have Augment Summoning at level 1 or 3 so 2nd level is a dead level because unlike other PrCs it doesn't say "If you already have the feat pick a different feat as a bonus feat"

[Bullet06320]

Contingent Summoning: Only use I got for it is to summon a monster as a free action on the first round of combat.

if your caught flat footed, having instant help never hurts
the more critters you can get out on the battlefield as quick as possible helps to control the situation, as beat sticks, flankers, battlefield control, putting something next to enemy castors, its all about tactics here



Planar Cohort: I got nothing. Too weak for combat and I can't think of a monster that has useful stuff a cleric doesn't already have at the level he gets the cohort.

look for critters with SLAs or casting to fill in the gaps or compliments what you and your party have
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444042-Legal-3-5-Summonable-Monster-List



And there's the whole thing about the creature you get from Planar Ally is determined by your DM and not you so you won't even get the cohort you want.

work with your DM here, tell him what you want and make sure to bring the pizza



You enter this class at 8 but if you're summoning you're gonna have Augment Summoning at level 1 or 3 so 2nd level is a dead level because unlike other PrCs it doesn't say "If you already have the feat pick a different feat as a bonus feat"

retraining works


lets not forget
Extended Summoning: At 3rd level and higher, all spells from the summoning subschool that the thaumaturgist casts have their durations doubled, as if the Extend Spell feat had been applied to them. The levels of the summoning spells don't change, however. This ability stacks with the effect of the Extend Spell feat, which does change the spells level.

your critters last longer automatically, and it specifically stacks with extend, which is good if your using summons for utility purposes out of combat, or long combats

Thaumaturgist works good following Masterspecialist or malconvoker. Thaumaturgist doesn't have to be cleric based, altho you need to get lessor planar ally as a wizard spell, the easiest its with Masterspecialists extended spellbook feature, to grab any spell of your chosen school, but that only works if your not using the errata, they nerfed it in the errata. if your taking it at higher levels, grab a planetar as a chohort, basically adds a high level cleric to your party

the PRC is a solid 5 level PRC for summoning focused builds, the only real flaw is augment summoning, which any good summoning build usually takes that early on, that's where the retraining rules come in, retrain the original to grab something else that works for your build, or ask the DM to house house rule it to grab a wizard bonus feat or something else.

[winteranfang]

2nd level is a dead level because unlike other PrCs it doesn't say "If you already have the feat pick a different feat as a bonus feat"

You can do DarkChaosShuffle to change your 'existing' Augment Summoning feat with other feat you like. When you reach Thaumaturgist 2, you can gain the benefit of 'new' Augment Summoning feat.

[Goaty14]

You can totally enter as a wizard. Just grab Arcane Disciple (Summoning) or Extra Spell.


You can do DarkChaosShuffle to change your 'existing' Augment Summoning feat with other feat you like. When you reach Thaumaturgist 2, you can gain the benefit of 'new' Augment Summoning feat.

Or you retrain Augment Summoning like a reasonable person.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Assuming you go [Class] 7/ Thaumaturgist 5, your Planar Cohort can be a Ghaele (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm), which is great in melee, gets Cleric 14 spellcasting, and tons of highish-level at-will spell-like abilities (Charm Monster, Hold Monster, Greater Teleport to name a few). This alone makes this class extremely worthwhile, if you're interested in having a companion that's more powerful than most of your encounters.

[RoboEmperor]

Assuming you go [Class] 7/ Thaumaturgist 5, your Planar Cohort can be a Ghaele (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm), which is great in melee, gets Cleric 14 spellcasting, and tons of highish-level at-will spell-like abilities (Charm Monster, Hold Monster, Greater Teleport to name a few). This alone makes this class extremely worthwhile, if you're interested in having a companion that's more powerful than most of your encounters.

No you can't. Ghaeles are LA:- so they have no ECL therefore un-cohort-able.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No you can't. Ghaeles are LA:- so they have no ECL therefore un-cohort-able.

"A 5th-level thaumaturgist can use any of the planar ally spells to call a creature to act as his cohort."

Planar Ally (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAlly.htm) has no such limitation, and it can call a Ghaele.

"The planar cohort can’t have more Hit Dice than the thaumaturgist has, and must have an ECL no higher than the thaumaturgist’s character level -2."

It does not say that it must have an ECL, only that its ECL be no higher than the character's level -2. So if LA: — means ECL: —, it's effectively zero and meets the qualification. If LA: — means ECL = HD, it's 10 HD and still meets that qualification.

Edit: Also note that "The planar cohort can’t have more Hit Dice than the thaumaturgist has," clearly indicates that they expect you to get a LA: — cohort via one of the Planar Ally spells, since HD is normally included in ECL if it has one. The first half of that sentence is completely unnecessary unless you're getting a LA: — planar cohort which effectively has no ECL.

[RoboEmperor]

It does not say that it must have an ECL

and must have an ECL no higher than the thaumaturgist’s character level -2."

:/


Edit: Also note that "The planar cohort can’t have more Hit Dice than the thaumaturgist has," clearly indicates that they expect you to get a LA: — cohort via one of the Planar Ally spells, since HD is normally included in ECL if it has one. The first half of that sentence is completely unnecessary unless you're getting a LA: — planar cohort which effectively has no ECL.

No it doesn't and it's not redundant. If you are a 12th level Thaumaturgst with ECL+6 then there are ample scenarios where a creature can have more hit die than you and be within ECL-2. The rule clearly indicates that this is a cohort from the Leadership feat since it is identical to it in all aspects except it uses a monster instead of a humanoid.

And ECL:- is not ECL:0. One means it doesn't exist and the other means you're 0th level.

So your argument is: Can't have more HD than you AND must be ECL-2 than your character level -> AND means OR -> Change the AND to an OR -> ignore the ECL part.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

:/

No it doesn't and it's not redundant. If you are a 12th level Thaumaturgst with ECL+6 then there are ample scenarios where a creature can have more hit die than you and be within ECL-2. The rule clearly indicates that this is a cohort from the Leadership feat since it is identical to it in all aspects except it uses a monster instead of a humanoid.

And ECL:- is not ECL:0. One means it doesn't exist and the other means you're 0th level.

So your argument is: Can't have more HD than you AND must be ECL-2 than your character level -> AND means OR -> Change the AND to an OR -> ignore the ECL part.

Character level doesn't work that way.

"The planar cohort can’t have more Hit Dice than the thaumaturgist has, and must have an ECL no higher than the thaumaturgist’s character level -2."

This gives two scenarios:

Has ECL: The cohort's ECL (HD+LA) can be no higher than the thaumaturgist's character level -2. LA is not included in character level, a 12th level Thaumaturgist with a +6 LA has a character level of 12th. So if you happen to find a valid creature that can be called with a Planar Ally spell and has a listed +0 LA, your 12th level character, regardless of whether he has a +6 LA, can't have that planar ally unless its HD (and thus ECL) is 10 or lower.

Has LA: —: The cohort can't have more Hit Dice than the thaumaturgist has. So a 12th level Thaumaturgist, again regardless of whether or not he has any LA, can't have a planar cohort above 12 HD, provided it has no ECL.

[Troacctid]

Contingent Summoning: Only use I got for it is to summon a monster as a free action on the first round of combat.
You say that as if free better-than-Quicken isn't an amazingly strong ability?


Planar Cohort: I got nothing. Too weak for combat and I can't think of a monster that has useful stuff a cleric doesn't already have at the level he gets the cohort.

And there's the whole thing about the creature you get from Planar Ally is determined by your DM and not you so you won't even get the cohort you want.
It doesn't have to have stuff you don't already have to be useful. It's still an extra body that provides action economy. Besides, even a little dude like a coure or musteval can have a lot of utility.


You enter this class at 8 but if you're summoning you're gonna have Augment Summoning at level 1 or 3 so 2nd level is a dead level because unlike other PrCs it doesn't say "If you already have the feat pick a different feat as a bonus feat"
Or you could...not take Augment Summoning? The prerequisites are a feat that improves your save DCs and a spell that all clerics learn automatically. Like, there's no reason you need to commit hard to the summoning strategy in order for thaumaturgist to be good. It's good for basically any cleric ever. And even on summoning builds, there are loads of other good feats you could be taking instead, including feats other than Augment Summoning that improve your summoning, like Rapid Spell, Divine Metamagic (Rapid Spell), or Rashemi Elemental Summoning.

[RoboEmperor]

Character level doesn't work that way.

"The planar cohort can’t have more Hit Dice than the thaumaturgist has, and must have an ECL no higher than the thaumaturgist’s character level -2."

What part of "and must have" is confusing you? If a monster has no ECL than it doesn't have an ECL therefore it doesn't have an ECL of your ECL-2.

Where does it say that a creature with no ECL can ignore "and must have"? If a feat requires a CON score and I have CON:-, can I ignore that requirement? I mean if a feat requires CON:14 then it must only apply to creatures with a CON score and since I have CON:- that requirement doesn't apply to me. Is this honestly your opinion?

Where does it say LA:- creatures can ignore ECL requirements?
Where does it say that "and must have an ECL no higher than the thaumaturgist’s character level -2." only applies to creatures with ECL?
Where does it say this quote is optional?

Just like how a player cannot play a LA:- creature, you cannot have a cohort that has LA:-.

[sorcererlover]

You say that as if free better-than-Quicken isn't an amazingly strong ability?

I want to know if there are other uses of it than free action summon elemental monolith. Because that's just as good as a standard action summon elemental monolith.


It doesn't have to have stuff you don't already have to be useful. It's still an extra body that provides action economy. Besides, even a little dude like a coure or musteval can have a lot of utility.

What utility? You're gonna have to spell it out for me.


Or you could...not take Augment Summoning? The prerequisites are a feat that improves your save DCs and a spell that all clerics learn automatically. Like, there's no reason you need to commit hard to the summoning strategy in order for thaumaturgist to be good. It's good for basically any cleric ever. And even on summoning builds, there are loads of other good feats you could be taking instead, including feats other than Augment Summoning that improve your summoning, like Rapid Spell, Divine Metamagic (Rapid Spell), or Rashemi Elemental Summoning.

Augment summoning is the prerequisite for a lot of feats and PrCs like beckon the frozen and malconvoker so waiting until level 9 to get those feats or enter those PrCs to make use of the Thaumaturgist's free augment summoning is not a good idea.


Or you retrain Augment Summoning like a reasonable person.

Only if your DM allows retraining. A lot of DMs hate retraining because it lets you be an early game munchkin with no downside.

[Simba]

Character level doesn't work that way.

"The planar cohort can’t have more Hit Dice than the thaumaturgist has, and must have an ECL no higher than the thaumaturgist’s character level -2."

This gives two scenarios:

Has ECL: The cohort's ECL (HD+LA) can be no higher than the thaumaturgist's character level -2. LA is not included in character level, a 12th level Thaumaturgist with a +6 LA has a character level of 12th. So if you happen to find a valid creature that can be called with a Planar Ally spell and has a listed +0 LA, your 12th level character, regardless of whether he has a +6 LA, can't have that planar ally unless its HD (and thus ECL) is 10 or lower.

Has LA: —: The cohort can't have more Hit Dice than the thaumaturgist has. So a 12th level Thaumaturgist, again regardless of whether or not he has any LA, can't have a planar cohort above 12 HD, provided it has no ECL.

You see that the conditions are connected by an and and not an or, right?
So there is only one scenario, the one where both conditions are met:

- planar cohort HD <= thaumaturgist's Hit Dice
AND
- ECL <= the thaumaturgist’s character level

Undefined (as in has LA -) does not mean it meets all conditions. Undefined can not be greater or less than any defined number so it does not meet the given condition. Basic logic.

[Troacctid]

I want to know if there are other uses of it than free action summon elemental monolith. Because that's just as good as a standard action summon elemental monolith.
A free action is clearly much better than a standard action. It's a whole extra turn. Two extra turns, actually, because normally summon elemental monolith has a full round casting time, not a standard action. Action economy 101, more actions is better. Thaumaturgist gives you extra actions at almost no cost.


What utility? You're gonna have to spell it out for me.
Well, a coure eladrin represents an incorporeal scout with faerie fire, detect magic, and detect evil at will, plus a constant magic circle against evil and tongues. A musteval guardinal has the always-on tongues and see invisibility and at-will detect magic, detect evil, and magic missile, plus a burrow speed and 1/day invisibility. Both pretty legit IMO.

They're probably not optimal choices. I just happen to know about them because they're familiar options (and some of the best ones in the game). Higher-op choices are more likely going to be something like an aasimar with class levels or whatever.


Augment summoning is the prerequisite for a lot of feats and PrCs like beckon the frozen and malconvoker so waiting until level 9 to get those feats or enter those PrCs to make use of the Thaumaturgist's free augment summoning is not a good idea.
You don't need any of those to make use of Augment Summoning. It works great with contingent summons and there you go, that's all you need.

[OgresAreCute]

The cohort's HD requirement is redundant in the face of the ECL requirement. WotC would never give something negative LA (not that that's a good idea to begin with). I know some old DragMag content and some 3.0 content like the ELH have stuff with HD > ECL but that's unlikely to actually come up. Hardly the first time WotC have added redundant rules to head off potential "abuse" though, and I guess we should commend them from trying to be careful and forward-thinking.

[Fizban]

Half gp cost, free feat, free metamagic, free contingent effect. . . the Planar Cohort ability is the least important in the entire class. It's basically all passive abilities you can't get anywhere else, how would you not use it if you took it?

Something I've almost never seen mentioned is that Complete Divine's deity entries specify what they respond to Planar Ally spells with. Which even if the DM chooses to take liberties, very strongly implies how little say the player has in the matter. Although I think that's actually a great extra dimension to add to deity choice, and on the DM side I like how having a pre-defined creature means you can then pre-make a fleshed out NPC version of said creature for if/when the player casts it.

[weckar]

You can do DarkChaosShuffle to change your 'existing' Augment Summoning feat with other feat you like. When you reach Thaumaturgist 2, you can gain the benefit of 'new' Augment Summoning feat.Yeah, 'cause that is always available.

[OgresAreCute]

Yeah, 'cause that is always available.

Pay a psion or wilder to hit you with that psychic reformation?

[Mordaedil]

Thaumaturgist is one of those classes I completely overlook whenever I play a cleric and one I wish I could enter when I play a wizard. Rather unfortunate design by the Wizards there.

[RoboEmperor]

Or you retrain Augment Summoning like a reasonable person.

You can't retrain because it makes a later choice illegal. You need DCSF.

[Troacctid]

You can't retrain because it makes a later choice illegal. You need DCSF.
Which choice?

[RoboEmperor]

Which choice?

Beckon the Frozen and Malconvoker.

Actually I stand correct. Upon re-examining the retraining rule, it doesn't say you can't retrain feats that are prerequisites of other feats or PrCs so nevermind.

[Blindy]

In an earlier post someone metnioned that the complete divine gives a list for what a god would send as their allies. I would like to point out that Corellon Larethian sends a Ghaele. So I am going to take this as confirmation that Planar Ally can grab ECL -. Also its obviously extremely powerful. I mean compare it to Boccob who sends an invisible stalker. Elf power I guess.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: forget about Thaumaturgist, how do you use Thread Necromancer?