How many secret plans are in progress right now, anyway?

[Aveline]

Roy's instructions to Roy's Archon (#664 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html))
The IFCC's plan for perpetual war in the higher planes (?) (#668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html))
The Dark One's plan for Kraagor's Gate (#830 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html))
Elan's plan for Ian to topple Tarquin (#941 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0941.html))
Hel's gambit (#1000 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html))
Vampire Gontor's plan for the Council of Clans (#1111 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html))
Loki's invisible schemes (#1143 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)) (it's not explicit, but Kish has me convinced there's something going on)
Thor's secret message to Durkon (#1146 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1146.html))


There's sure a lot there for the series to live up to. Did I miss any?

[Phhase]

Wow, I...damn. I'd forgotten about half of these. Good job collating, Ave. I can't wait to find out! Especially about Roy's Archon.

[Snails]

Odin may have a secret plan, too. A little fuzzy there, but his babbling at moot hints he may be thinking something.

You might spell out explicitly how V fits into the IFCC greater plans might qualify as a secret mini-plan in itself.

[Phhase]

You might spell out explicitly how V fits into the IFCC greater plans might qualify as a secret mini-plan in itself.

Yes, definitely. The IFCC has two more claims on his soul. These are clearly gonna be plot points somewhere in the future. The only question is when.

[Son of A Lich!]

X has a secret plan too, if I'm not mistaken. He has the Mystic Theruge girl break into Redcloak's room to find the other half of the spell. While he may appear dumb, I'm pretty convinced that he has had his run in with bad underlings enough times to figure out what is happening where.

And I'm pretty sure Elan has a plan for taking out Tarquin; Leaving was more important then defeating his dad.

He may have had a secret task for Durkon too, but I think that was revealed to calling Julio.

[Aveline]

Odin may have a secret plan, too. A little fuzzy there, but his babbling at moot hints he may be thinking something.

You might spell out explicitly how V fits into the IFCC greater plans might qualify as a secret mini-plan in itself.

I suppose the "dwarf prophecy thing" constitutes one phase of a bigger plan of action, so that's another bullet point there. Agreed on Vaarsuvius's soul contract as well; I considered it a detail of the IFCC plan, but Gontor's task is the same kind of detail and I gave that one a bullet point too.

Also, your signature reminds me that Redcloak still hasn't done anything with Xykon's phylactery since he stole and hid it. So that's another bullet point there.


X has a secret plan too, if I'm not mistaken. He has the Mystic Theruge girl break into Redcloak's room to find the other half of the spell. While he may appear dumb, I'm pretty convinced that he has had his run in with bad underlings enough times to figure out what is happening where.

And I'm pretty sure Elan has a plan for taking out Tarquin; Leaving was more important then defeating his dad.

He may have had a secret task for Durkon too, but I think that was revealed to calling Julio.

Good call on Xykon's task for Tsukiko. I think what he really wants is for Redcloak be expendable to him, so his power isn't compromised by Redcloak's interests.

(Technically, I think Xykon asked Tsukiko to simply analyze (the arcane portion of) the spell. But one could say he manipulated her into seeking the divine portion.)

I keep missing the clue where Elan secretly has Durkon send to Julio. Besides the flashback after the Mechane arrives, obviously. Would you mind filling me in on this?

[Phhase]

.

Also, your signature reminds me that Redcloak still hasn't done anything with Xykon's phylactery since he stole and hid it. So that's another bullet point there.



I think that plan's objective is already completed (Redcloak still holds Xykon's phylactery, and without his knowledge). I imagine it's a failsafe just in case everything goes wrong, so that Redcloak can kill Xykon if he has to. I kinda doubt it's a cog in a greater scheme.

[Aveline]

I think that plan's objective is already completed (Redcloak still holds Xykon's phylactery, and without his knowledge). I imagine it's a failsafe just in case everything goes wrong, so that Redcloak can kill Xykon if he has to. I kinda doubt it's a cog in a greater scheme.

Personally, I think each intends to eventually dispose of the other.

[Son of A Lich!]

Good call on Xykon's task for Tsukiko. I think what he really wants is for Redcloak be expendable to him, so his power isn't compromised by Redcloak's interests.

(Technically, I think Xykon asked Tsukiko to simply analyze (the arcane portion of) the spell. But one could say he manipulated her into seeking the divine portion.)

I keep missing the clue where Elan secretly has Durkon send to Julio. Besides the flashback after the Mechane arrives, obviously. Would you mind filling me in on this?

(Well, regarding Tsukiko and the other half, I'm pretty confident that Xykon knew that it had two parts. Didn't Redcloak tell him that was why he needed Xykon for the mission? Redcloak was asking Xykon why Tsukiko had the other half and X just ignored the question.)

It is in the Windy passage where they are waiting for V to return from the salad dressing plane. Elan says he is trying to form a new plan and that it shouldn't be on a stair way in view of the public. He has a "That's IT!" moment, and then says he can't tell Roy what the plan is or it will fail. Then Roy tells him they will just wait for V and Durkon to arrive and the gag line is that it works just as stated. Then Elan says something to the effect of "But that was BORING!"

The fact that we cut back to the gate and it attacking Tarquin's peeps, tells me that something is about to go down in the west that will impact the last book. Elan still needs a way to reconcile with his dad and his Father wants him to be the hero of the story.

And... Elan is supposed to have a happy ending, for him at least. And Tarquin is likely the most distressing thing in his life right now.

[Snails]

I think that plan's objective is already completed (Redcloak still holds Xykon's phylactery, and without his knowledge). I imagine it's a failsafe just in case everything goes wrong, so that Redcloak can kill Xykon if he has to. I kinda doubt it's a cog in a greater scheme.

Yes, but what RC did or will do with the phylactery is sufficiently interesting that I would call that the last piece of the specific "mini-plan".

Obviously, it fits in the greater plan, as accomplishing TDO's bidding will eventually reveal to Xykon that the entire game was a betrayal from the outset. So this little piece is how RC personally and Goblotopia has a prayer of surviving Xykon's reprisals.


Personally, I think each intends to eventually dispose of the other.

Certainly, yes. The greater plan of TDO does allow for RC and Goblotopia to be nuked by Xykon, after all, and RC knows it. RC is preparing for that possibility. Xykon probably had suspicions, and that was a motivation for sending Tsukiko to investigate -- but he lacks specifics because she was murdered.

[Rrmcklin]

Roy's instructions to Roy's Archon (#664 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html))
The IFCC's plan for perpetual war in the higher planes (?) (#668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html))
The Dark One's plan for Kraagor's Gate (#830 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html))
Elan's plan for Ian to topple Tarquin (#941 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0941.html))
Hel's gambit (#1000 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html))
Vampire Gontor's plan for the Council of Clans (#1111 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html))
Loki's invisible schemes (#1143 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)) (it's not explicit, but Kish has me convinced there's something going on)
Thor's secret message to Durkon (#1146 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1146.html))


There's sure a lot there for the series to live up to. Did I miss any?

I don't think you can even call the Dark One's and Hel's plans secret at all. The other gods (and our heroes, to a lesser extent) are aware of what they're aiming to do, they just can't directly confront them on it for different reason. Like, in the Hel strip you linked she's very openly gloating about what she wants and what it will mean.

I don't expect we'll actually see what happens with Tarquin because the story has moved on him and the story went out of it's way to avoid giving Tarquinn a narrative he'd like. He'll go down, but probably in an epilogue or something.

While I like Kish, their and other people's arguments regarding that point mostly seem to boil down to "It's Loki". That is not convincing in and of itself, at least not for me.

Calling Thor's message a "plan" seems like stretching the definition of the word as well.

But as for those others...you got me, I hope they're good.

[Bacon Elemental]

I keep missing the clue where Elan secretly has Durkon send to Julio. Besides the flashback after the Mechane arrives, obviously. Would you mind filling me in on this?

I dont have the comic number, but its just after Durkon recovers V from the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing. Roy gives Elan the idea while they're talking in the desert cave

[D.One]

Of all of those plans, the one I'm most curious to see is Roy's mission to Roy's Archon. It was set almost 500 strips ago, and we haven't seen anything about it since that.

[Darth Paul]

Of all of those plans, the one I'm most curious to see is Roy's mission to Roy's Archon. It was set almost 500 strips ago, and we haven't seen anything about it since that.

I don't know where I originally made this prediction, but I'll renew it here:

I'm leaning to the idea that, since Roy's granddad has a spritual copy of the Greenhilt Sword in the afterlife, and Roy has the physical sword himself, he had some idea of trying to summon and combine the powers of both swords for the final confrontation. How it would work, and how it would be more effective, I have no clue, but it's just crazy enough to try.

[Aveline]

I don't think you can even call the Dark One's and Hel's plans secret at all. The other gods (and our heroes, to a lesser extent) are aware of what they're aiming to do, they just can't directly confront them on it for different reason. Like, in the Hel strip you linked she's very openly gloating about what she wants and what it will mean. Well, Hel's plan was thoroughly secret before that comic.:smalltongue: And I'd say the Dark One's plan is still secret since it's known only by Redcloak and the audience.


While I like Kish, their and other people's arguments regarding that point mostly seem to boil down to "It's Loki". That is not convincing in and of itself, at least not for me. It's certainly not definite. "I am convinced" is not a particularly strong statement in my case anyway. So I understand that this bullet point is doubtful.


Calling Thor's message a "plan" seems like stretching the definition of the word as well. Perhaps. But it looks like it'll matter later, and it's a secret for now, and it prompted me to make this thread, so I put it up there.




It is in the Windy passage where they are waiting for V to return from the salad dressing plane. Elan says he is trying to form a new plan and that it shouldn't be on a stair way in view of the public. He has a "That's IT!" moment, and then says he can't tell Roy what the plan is or it will fail. Then Roy tells him they will just wait for V and Durkon to arrive and the gag line is that it works just as stated. Then Elan says something to the effect of "But that was BORING!"


I dont have the comic number, but its just after Durkon recovers V from the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing. Roy gives Elan the idea while they're talking in the desert cave

I found it, thanks friends. #836 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html)


I don't know where I originally made this prediction, but I'll renew it here:

I'm leaning to the idea that, since Roy's granddad has a spritual copy of the Greenhilt Sword in the afterlife, and Roy has the physical sword himself, he had some idea of trying to summon and combine the powers of both swords for the final confrontation. How it would work, and how it would be more effective, I have no clue, but it's just crazy enough to try.

I was wondering about something like that as well. Dual-wielding greatswords doesn't seem that unreasonable if one has a belt of giant strength. But I think that would be a little underwhelming, though, if it were used as the last-minute serendipitous solution to a really severe problem. ("Roy with two ancestral blades" would be still be amazing to see.)

[D.One]

I was wondering about something like that as well. Dual-wielding greatswords doesn't seem that unreasonable if one has a belt of giant strength. But I think that would be a little underwhelming, though, if it were used as the last-minute serendipitous solution to a really severe problem. ("Roy with two ancestral blades" would be still be amazing to see.)

Even though Greenhilt Sword x 2 might be rad to see, I believe Roy's Archon's task is probably something related to contacting someone. Maybe he's to try to gain the help of some celestial, or maybe he's to search for some of the Scribblers. Roy didn't know, when he died, about Soon's fate as a Spirit Guardian, or Lyrian's and Dorukan's imprisionment, but he may have had access to that information afterwards, since he had an epic scrying pool. It even makes sense if he was trying to contact them in order to obtain the knowledge about how to repair the seals and the gates, since, by that time, he already knew they were three gates down, and it made sense to try to repair the broken gates after defeating Xykon.

[Grey Watcher]

I'd argue that Gontor's plans for the Council are just a bullet point within Hel's Gambit.

[woweedd]

Well, by definition, we won't know until they're done.:smallbiggrin:

[Son of A Lich!]

I've been rereading the story thus far, and just stumbled on another plot point that may or may not be part of a 'secret plan'.

A New Friend (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html) feature Durkon getting a book from Malak that he describes as being common knowledge amongst his people. This may not be a "Plan" in the strictest sense of the word, but it definitely an unresolved plot point.


Never mind, I just got the MaceBook joke.

[Peelee]

I'd argue that Gontor's plans for the Council are just a bullet point within Hel's Gambit.

Seconded. Also, didn't they just up and say the plan is to Dominate them?

[Aveline]

Seconded. Also, didn't they just up and say the plan is to Dominate them?

Gontor did say that, but Durkon had him "head over to the council chamber and begin preparing for the vote", so it looks like there are still some undivulged details for Gontor to surprise us with.

[Darth Paul]

I was wondering about something like that as well. Dual-wielding greatswords doesn't seem that unreasonable if one has a belt of giant strength. But I think that would be a little underwhelming, though, if it were used as the last-minute serendipitous solution to a really severe problem. ("Roy with two ancestral blades" would be still be amazing to see.)

Oooo, that wasn't the way I was thinking, but interesting notion... I was picturing multiplying the power of the sword with its spiritual twin, combining them in some way. A ghost form overlaid onto the physical form to enhance the power of the whole.

[Peelee]

Oooo, that wasn't the way I was thinking, but interesting notion... I was picturing multiplying the power of the sword with its spiritual twin, combining them in some way. A ghost form overlaid onto the physical form to enhance the power of the whole.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/80455702a9287c39d9911ad409a318c6/tenor.gif?itemid=7410546

[Ruck]

Gontor did say that, but Durkon had him "head over to the council chamber and begin preparing for the vote", so it looks like there are still some undivulged details for Gontor to surprise us with.

Also, "The Exarch's got some tricks up 'is sleeve tha I know Roy ain't prepared fer. Tricks I help'd 'im come up wit! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1134.html)"

[Fish]

The MitD’s plan to mark additional doors.

[rbetieh]

Roy's instructions to Roy's Archon (#664 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html))
The IFCC's plan for perpetual war in the higher planes (?) (#668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html))
The Dark One's plan for Kraagor's Gate (#830 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html))
Elan's plan for Ian to topple Tarquin (#941 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0941.html))
Hel's gambit (#1000 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html))
Vampire Gontor's plan for the Council of Clans (#1111 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1111.html))
Loki's invisible schemes (#1143 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)) (it's not explicit, but Kish has me convinced there's something going on)
Thor's secret message to Durkon (#1146 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1146.html))


There's sure a lot there for the series to live up to. Did I miss any?

Is Mr Scruffy's disease a secret plan or foreshadowing?

[Ruck]

Is Mr Scruffy's disease a secret plan or foreshadowing?

It's a one-off joke that won't come to pass before the time frame of the main comic ends.

[Talion]

Roy's instructions to Roy's Archon (#664 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html))

Clearly Roy's Archon is flying around Celestia asking everyone who can to donate some of their 4 colour quiddy (say, a level 1 spell slot) in preparation for Roy's use of a Spirit Bomb against Xykon in the final match.

Also calling it now, Xykon barely dodges the Spirit Bomb, but it continues onward through the Gate, crashes into the Snarl, dealing Massive Damage to it, forcing a Fortitude Save against instant death. By sheer freakish chance (1/20), it rolls a critical failure and instantly dies.

:smalltongue:

[Fish]

And then it falls dead and lands on Redcloak's niece, who is talking with Haley's aasimar mother about Belkar turning into a non-breathing life form on another planet.

[Snails]

I'd argue that Gontor's plans for the Council are just a bullet point within Hel's Gambit.

Thinking about it that way may be a good way to organize this, that a bigger plan may have sub-plans that could be tracked as sub-bullets.

In this case, it is probably true that Hel's gambit will be played out if Gontor is stopped. But that is not definitely true, nor are we so sure in other cases such as the IFCC.

[martianmister]

Belkar's plan to fake character development.
MitD's plan to hinder Xykon and Redcloak.
Xykon's plan to use MitD against Redcloak.
Not a plan, but Haley has a secret about her origin.

[Ruck]

Not a plan, but Haley has a secret about her origin.

Eh? What do you mean?

[martianmister]

Eh? What do you mean?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?209336-I-m-not-exactly-what-you-would-call

[Ruck]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?209336-I-m-not-exactly-what-you-would-call

I thought this was intended to be either a reference to her bisexuality or to her not actually being in the Thieves' Guild. Or, as Kish mentions in that thread, her self-loathing manifesting itself.

[martianmister]

I thought this was intended to be either a reference to her bisexuality or to her not actually being in the Thieves' Guild.

She already said both.


Or, as Kish mentions in that thread, her self-loathing manifesting itself.

As I said there, she had no reason to hide something like this from Vaarsuvius.

[Peelee]

As I said there, she had no reason to hide something like this from Vaarsuvius.

No reason that you agree with, you mean. She could easily not see herself as not exactly what you'd call a good person, for instance, and still want to hide that from people.

[martianmister]

No reason that you agree with, you mean. She could easily not see herself as not exactly what you'd call a good person, for instance, and still want to hide that from people.

Why would she hide it from V?

[Peelee]

Why would she hide it from V?

Because she was trained from childhood to hold her cards close to her chest, regardless of what those cards may be? That's kind of what her entire aphasia arc was about.

[martianmister]

Because she was trained from childhood to hold her cards close to her chest, regardless of what those cards may be? That's kind of what her entire aphasia arc was about.

Except, she already shared her more important secrets with Vaarsuvius.

[Peelee]

Except, she already shared her more important secrets with Vaarsuvius.

More important in your mind. Not necessarily in hers. Haley is neither you nor a perfectly rational person.

[Ruck]

Except, she already shared her more important secrets with Vaarsuvius.


More important in your mind. Not necessarily in hers. Haley is neither you nor a perfectly rational person.

I generally agree with this stance, but even assuming martianmister's reasoning is correct: How do you know she hid her self-loathing from Vaarsuvius?

[Peelee]

I generally agree with this stance, but even assuming martianmister's reasoning is correct: How do you know she hid her self-loathing from Vaarsuvius?

To be fair, Haley prefaces the secret with "Even V doesn't know that one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html)."

ETA: To be more fair, regardless of what she was going to say, I doubt that qualifies as a secret plan.

[Ruck]

Except, she already shared her more important secrets with Vaarsuvius.


To be fair, Haley prefaces the secret with "Even V doesn't know that one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html)."

ETA: To be more fair, regardless of what she was going to say, I doubt that qualifies as a secret plan.

Oh, right. I'm really skeptical in part because so many of the theories about "Haley's secret origin" are along the lines of "She's actually half-Celestial, just like the hero of Dragon Quest IV! which is how she and Sabine are opposites!" when the actual ways in which they are opposites has been confirmed by Rich.

[Fyraltari]

I'm really skeptical in part because so many of the theories about "Haley's secret origin" are along the lines of "She's actually half-Celestial, just like the hero of Dragon Quest IV! which is how she and Sabine are opposites!".

Wouldn't that require Sabine to be half-human, anyway?

[TRH]

We can't know for sure. It's a secret.

[The Pilgrim]

Master Fyrion's son.

He is the key to unraveling all this conundrum.

[TRH]

Master Fyrion's son.

He is the key to unraveling all this conundrum.

I thought Xykon killed him, too. Or do you mean he'd solve it from the afterlife?

[Sir_Norbert]

It's said that Xykon killed Fyron and his son, but...
when we actually see the events, no son is visible. Thus one of OotS' long-standing unresolved mysteries was born.

Some have suggested it's a retcon and we're meant to take SoD as the real version and the son never existed. But that doesn't quite work, because the son was mentioned again after SoD was published.

It may just remain forever unresolved, but it could be something that was left in deliberately to be returned to later -- the story has had plenty enough of those that it's not absurd to suggest this could be one.

[Talion]

It's said that Xykon killed Fyron and his son, but...
when we actually see the events, no son is visible. Thus one of OotS' long-standing unresolved mysteries was born.

Some have suggested it's a retcon and we're meant to take SoD as the real version and the son never existed. But that doesn't quite work, because the son was mentioned again after SoD was published.

It may just remain forever unresolved, but it could be something that was left in deliberately to be returned to later -- the story has had plenty enough of those that it's not absurd to suggest this could be one.

Its also possible that Fyron's son could have been killed elsewhere in the building before the showdown between the man himself and Xykon. On the other hand, he's also not mentioned by Eugene at all during the flashback, despite having lived with him/them for several years and stopping by on at least a weekly basis. Hard call to make.

[martianmister]

More important in your mind. Not necessarily in hers. Haley is neither you nor a perfectly rational person.

Funny, people used to use the same reasoning to claim that she's definitely talking about her virginity. :smallamused:


Its also possible that Fyron's son could have been killed elsewhere in the building before the showdown between the man himself and Xykon. On the other hand, he's also not mentioned by Eugene at all during the flashback, despite having lived with him/them for several years and stopping by on at least a weekly basis. Hard call to make.

I semi-seriously suspect that Eugene did something to him. He has seen Fyron as the father figure he never had.

[Peelee]

Funny, people used to use the same reasoning to claim that she's definitely talking about her virginity. :smallamused:

... and your point is?

[Talion]

Funny, people used to use the same reasoning to claim that she's definitely talking about her virginity. :smallamused:



I semi-seriously suspect that Eugene did something to him. He has seen Fyron as the father figure he never had.

In your mind, would you say it was on purpose or in one of those "Now would be a good time to teach you about image resolution" moments?

[martianmister]

... and your point is?

People are too quick to assume things.


In your mind, would you say it was on purpose or in one of those "Now would be a good time to teach you about image resolution" moments?

Maybe a heated argument after Fyron's murder?

[Kish]

People are too quick to assume things.

Does that include your assumption that that line refers to some mystery yet unrevealed? 'Cause you're the one who brought it in with an absolute statement here.

[martianmister]

Does that include your assumption that that line refers to some mystery yet unrevealed?

That's a fact, not an assumption. Here is the line:

"Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call..."

It's a secret that we're not allowed to see. Rich Burlew did hide it from us. Even if it's revealed to be a reference to Haley's suspicions about her alignment, we still don't know if that's the case.


'Cause you're the one who brought it in with an absolute statement here.

Like Aveline's post, everything in my first post here were guesses.

[thelivingmonkey]

That's a fact, not an assumption. Here is the line:

"Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call..."

It's a secret that we're not allowed to see. Rich Burlew did hide it from us. Even if it's revealed to be a reference to Haley's suspicions about her alignment, we still don't know if that's the case.



Like Aveline's post, everything in my first post here were guesses.

I mean, technically it is a secret. She could have been about to say something super obvious ("Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call an ogre, and I'm not") but it is still a secret, because we don't know what she was going to say. Given context, it is likely something not obvious and as it has not been specifically pointed out we may not know the secret yet.

I personally think it was some twist that we already know and just hasn't been specifically pointed out that that was what she was going to say, because why would the comic point that out, that is nonsensical to me.

"I'm not X, which is something I was going to tell you one time when I couldn't talk" seems entirely ridiculous to me.

[Peelee]

People are too quick to assume things.
I agree.

As I said there, she had no reason to hide something like this from Vaarsuvius.

[Kish]

I agree.
Didn't you get the memo? martianmister's assumptions are facts, not assumptions.

[thelivingmonkey]

Didn't you get the memo? martianmister's assumptions are facts, not assumptions.

Well you know what they say about assuming...

[martianmister]

Didn't you get the memo? martianmister's assumptions are facts, not assumptions.

Of course not, only you have that kind of power. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=11520812&postcount=6)


I agree.

You still didn't show me any reason for her to hide something like that from Vaarsuvius, other than the classic "she's trained to be secretive about herself since childhood" argument. She learned to be secretive to not give away her personal information, so that info can't be used against her. Both her interest in Elan and her clash with the guild were more important secrets that could be used against her, her doubts about alignment is not something people could use against her.

[Peelee]

You still didn't show me any reason for her to hide something like that from Vaarsuvius

Just for funsies, let's assume that she's not hiding it. Let's flip this around, why not. Why would she tell V that? Assuming it's something irrelevant to the story and just a deeply personal thing doesn't put it into the "of course I'll tell that to anyone I'm close to" category. You keep assuming that if Haley didn't tell V, she must be hiding it, which is just ridiculous.

[Ruck]

Of course not, only you have that kind of power. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=11520812&postcount=6)

Haley's self-loathing is so important to her character it literally personified itself and she had conversations with it. Hardly an assumption.

[martianmister]

Haley's self-loathing is so important to her character it literally personified itself and she had conversations with it. Hardly an assumption.

Ruck, that's not the part that Kish assumed something, right?

Here is another one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23510452&postcount=56)


Just for funsies, let's assume that she's not hiding it. Let's flip this around, why not. Why would she tell V that? Assuming it's something irrelevant to the story and just a deeply personal thing doesn't put it into the "of course I'll tell that to anyone I'm close to" category.

Not hiding what? Not feeling good enough or the hypothetical secret she possess?


You keep assuming that if Haley didn't tell V, she must be hiding it, which is just ridiculous.

It has to be a secret, or else why would she brings it up?

[Ruck]

Ruck, that's not the part that Kish assumed something, right?

Here is another one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23510452&postcount=56)

You'll have to explain to me what part is the assumption, then, because I missed it.

The second example you just posted is a comment specifically about not assuming or drawing additional conclusions, so I'm not sure what your point is there, either.

[martianmister]

You'll have to explain to me what part is the assumption, then, because I missed it.

"...a good person."


The second example you just posted is a comment specifically about not assuming or drawing additional conclusions, so I'm not sure what your point is there, either.

There is no reason to take X as indicating anything other than X is not an assumption?

[RainbowCloakBun]

It's said that Xykon killed Fyron and his son, but...
when we actually see the events, no son is visible. Thus one of OotS' long-standing unresolved mysteries was born.

Some have suggested it's a retcon and we're meant to take SoD as the real version and the son never existed. But that doesn't quite work, because the son was mentioned again after SoD was published.

It may just remain forever unresolved, but it could be something that was left in deliberately to be returned to later -- the story has had plenty enough of those that it's not absurd to suggest this could be one.

Isn't it obvious? Fyron's son is was Larry Gardener, the boy who lived (at least for a while there). Please ignore anything that might contradict this theory.

[SlashDash]

I don't know if I'd call some of those a secret. Is a "secret plan" still a "secret" after the audience knows about it?

I mean you haven't listed Tarquin preparing an army to take over the pyramid, have you? Despite it clearly being dramatically hinted as a secret plan.


So as far as unresolved secret plans go, I wouldn't count Hel's plan which we clearly know about.



And if we're counting potential secret plans, well... There is the Oracle.

He lied to Celia about his "dust" and being somewhat omniscient it's possible he's pulling some puppet mastery behind the scenes for something.

[Ruck]

"...a good person."



There is no reason to take X as indicating anything other than X is not an assumption?

The difference between "making extrapolations from the text" and "NOT making extrapolations from the text" is so vast that if you're using the word "assumption" for both, you've rendered the word meaningless.

[martianmister]

The difference between "making extrapolations from the text" and "NOT making extrapolations from the text" is so vast that if you're using the word "assumption" for both, you've rendered the word meaningless.

How so?


As I said there, she had no reason to hide something like this from Vaarsuvius.


There is no reason to take "the elven gods vote with the Western Pantheon" as indicating anything other than "the elven gods vote with the Western Pantheon."

Looks same to me.

[mucat]

How many secret plans are in progress right now, anyway?

[list of plans redacted]

There's sure a lot there for the series to live up to. Did I miss any?
I'd tell you the full count, but then I'd have to plan to kill you.

(Not actually kill you, just plan to...and then the count would be off by one again!) :smallannoyed:

[Aveline]

I don't know if I'd call some of those a secret. Is a "secret plan" still a "secret" after the audience knows about it?

I mean you haven't listed Tarquin preparing an army to take over the pyramid, have you? Despite it clearly being dramatically hinted as a secret plan.


So as far as unresolved secret plans go, I wouldn't count Hel's plan which we clearly know about.



And if we're counting potential secret plans, well... There is the Oracle.

He lied to Celia about his "dust" and being somewhat omniscient it's possible he's pulling some puppet mastery behind the scenes for something.

The basic definition I was thinking of was something along the lines of "hidden actors". Gontor, Ian and Roy's Archon fit that easily since it's blatantly stated that they're up to... something. The IFCC still have agents in play, but it seems to me the crux of their plan is to patiently wait for the perfect opportunity to invoke their claims on Vaarsuvius's soul. Thor's tip to Durkon is similar: at just the right moment, Durkon will make use of this ancient secret.

I put Hel's plan in there because it hasn't met its end; as well as Gontor still being out there, I think there may be yet more contingencies to her plan. She had a good few surprises up her sleeve when she made her speech. Who's to say she's spent them all? They could very well end with the Council of Clans vote, but I wouldn't be remotely surprised if there were more in store.

None of this is the same as simply having a secret. The Oracle isn't really up to anything besides profiteering. (And whatever Haley was talking about in #309, it doesn't look to be part of any other plan than "divulge my secrets to restore my speech", which has already come to pass.)

[MartianInvader]

This can probably be a sub-point of either Hel's or Loki's plans, but we still don't know the terms of the bet between Hel and Thor. Hel makes a reference to collecting her winnings, but it hasn't been revealed what those are.

[Sir_Norbert]

How so?

Looks same to me.

There is such a thing as CONTEXT. The context in which Kish said "...a good person" is that Sunken Valley started a thread asking for guesses. Therefore, Kish's reply should be taken as a guess and not an assumption. Sorry to state the obvious but apparently sometimes it's necessary :smallconfused:

[Ruck]

How so?





Looks same to me.
They are 100% opposites of one another.

"I assume this thing was done" is the exact opposite of "I do not think we should assume things were done."

[martianmister]

They are 100% opposites of one another.

"I assume this thing was done" is the exact opposite of "I do not think we should assume things were done."

Actually, it should be "I assume this thing was done" vs "I assume this thing was not done." They're really opposites of each other, but still, they're (also) both assumptions.


There is such a thing as CONTEXT. The context in which Kish said "...a good person" is that Sunken Valley started a thread asking for guesses. Therefore, Kish's reply should be taken as a guess and not an assumption. Sorry to state the obvious but apparently sometimes it's necessary :smallconfused:

1. That quote is from an entirely different thread.

2. You can see in Sunken Valley's thread that Kish is not just guessing, he's also shoot down other possibilities.

[Ruck]

Actually, it should be "I assume this thing was done" vs "I assume this thing was not done." They're really opposites of each other, but still, they're (also) both assumptions.
No, I'd say it's "I assume this thing was done" vs "I don't assume this thing was done." And the difference between my #2 statement and yours is pretty substantial, as small as it may look at first. Particularly when we're talking about building arguments based around assumptions that things that weren't seen in-comic happened.

[martianmister]

Let's agree to disagree then.

[nolongeralurker]

And I'd say the Dark One's plan is still secret since it's known only by Redcloak and the audience.

Thor and some of other gods know about it (well, in the sense that they've made a guess we know to be correct). (#1142, panel 8)

[DaLucaray]

I semi-seriously suspect that Eugene did something to him. He has seen Fyron as the father figure he never had.

I doubt it. Despite his general jerkfacery Eugene did get confirmed as Lawful Good after death. Considering that Roy intentionally leaving Elan to the bandits would have defined him as True Neutral had Elan died I don't think orchestrating the death of your master's (presumably non-evil) son and in no way repenting for it would be glossed over.

[Ruck]

I doubt it. Despite his general jerkfacery Eugene did get confirmed as Lawful Good after death.

I don't think that's quite set in stone, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434019-After-vs-Life&p=19683417&highlight=eugene+celestia#post19683417) although SoD could certainly leave the reader with that impression.

But I doubt Eugene arranged anything to happen for Fyron's son. We only know about the son because Eugene volunteered the information to Roy, right? If he killed Fyron's son, I don't see him even bringing up the existence of a son to Roy.

[rbetieh]

I don't think that's quite set in stone, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434019-After-vs-Life&p=19683417&highlight=eugene+celestia#post19683417) although SoD could certainly leave the reader with that impression.

But I doubt Eugene arranged anything to happen for Fyron's son. We only know about the son because Eugene volunteered the information to Roy, right? If he killed Fyron's son, I don't see him even bringing up the existence of a son to Roy.

You know, the most interesting thing about that link you posted; at least to me, is that Paladin mounts are EMPLOYED by the gods to help out their chosen ones. I can just imagine windstriker hanging around a water cooler, stapling papers, and waiting for some chance to go back to the field, like some desk cop....