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F.H. Zebedee
2007-09-19, 03:21 PM
Well, I've been browsing the SRDs for both D20 Modern and D&D, and there's some scary odd crap in there.

-I noticed that the Tooth Fairy, not only a monster in D20 modern, but it's also packing heat. A friggin' double eagle. AND it's also got a knife on it. Do not screw with the tooth fairy, just hand your pearly whites over now.
-And the monster weakness section makes me want to cry. Though it also is pretty awesome in places.
-As for D&D, the Gestalt section suggests Bardbarians, which is a rather amusing mental image.
"Slay, slay, slay the hydra. Cauterize, Cauterize, Cauterize thenecksbeforetheyinevitably regenerate. Dodge, doge, dod- RARGGGGGHHH!" *hulks out and starts killing stuff, STILL providing Bardic Music bonuses.*

Kurald Galain
2007-09-19, 03:31 PM
How about some links?

Zherog
2007-09-19, 03:32 PM
Let me take this moment to be pedantic and mention that gestalt rules are not in the SRD... :smallwink:

F.H. Zebedee
2007-09-19, 03:35 PM
True, true, gestalt rules are not in the actual SRD, just on the standard website for such matters, D20srd.com.

As for the modern one, it's on the Wizards site. I'll go there and bring back a link, and edit it in here.

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/msrdcreatures.rtf

And that's not all. The tooth fairy is packing caltrops, 18 rounds of ammunition, and three sticks of dynamite. I'd pull my own teeth before messing with her.

And the KOBOLDS!
Possessions: Leather jacket, stun gun, Pathfinder (.22 revolver), 20 rounds of .22 ammunition, 3 sticks of dynamite, tool belt, lockpick set, basic electrical toolkit, basic mechanical toolkit, demolitions kit.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-09-19, 04:10 PM
A more direct link to the Toothfairy:
http://ca.geocities.com/spike_fightwicky/d20modernsrd/creatures3.html#toothfairy

I think my favorite is the 'Minotaur' in d20 Modern.
Possessions: Chain saw, bloodstained smock.
Not many items, but I'll be damned if that's not an intimidating sight.

F.H. Zebedee
2007-09-19, 04:23 PM
Steak. It's what's for dinner.

AslanCross
2007-09-19, 04:31 PM
-And the monster weakness section makes me want to cry. Though it also is pretty awesome in places.


These foul fiends shall behold the awesome power of my Elvis memorabilia.

GimliFett
2007-09-19, 04:34 PM
Steak. It's what's for dinner.

Nuh uh! People! It's what's for dinner.

Does the gear remind you of someone? Leatherface? *cough**cough*

Mewtarthio
2007-09-19, 04:41 PM
These foul fiends shall behold the awesome power of my Elvis memorabilia.

Personally, my favorite weakness is the one to William Blake books. Particularly combined with the "Addiction" reaction: "Okay, guys, I've checked on this mystical tome of dark power, and it turns out that all we have to do is hold up a book by William Blake, and he'll be forced to eat it! And then he'll explode!" Though I also like the laughter of children weakness: Go on, apply it to the tooth fairy, and choose "Harm: Creature is disintigrated."

EDIT: Also, my favorite monster possession is the troll hero's gear. Come on, trolls with assault rifles!

[Insert Neat Username Here]
2007-09-19, 06:01 PM
There's a balance DC for "cloud," and another for "liquid."
No. Really.
Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm)

Dhavaer
2007-09-19, 06:06 PM
I had a beastie that was rendered visible by Power Rangers. Ah, Modern.

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-19, 06:45 PM
;3218211']There's a balance DC for "cloud," and another for "liquid."
No. Really.
Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm)

You think that's bad? Take a look at some others!
Diplomacy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm) and Perform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm) (go fanatics!) -- A bard can become a god very easily by these rules and a DM that goes by RAW.
But Escape Artist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/escapeArtist.htm) is the one that really gets me and justs begs the question how?!?!?!?!?

StickMan
2007-09-19, 08:19 PM
Let me take this moment to be pedantic and mention that gestalt rules are not in the SRD... :smallwink:

Read page 2 the legal text at the bottom of the page. It states that Unearthed Arcana is OGC. As such its included in things like the Hypertext SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/).

Chronos
2007-09-19, 08:34 PM
But Escape Artist is the one that really gets me and justs begs the question how?!?!?!?!?Presumably, your skull is softened at the fuses, so you can deform it enough to squeeze through places. And a Wall of Force is magic, so it doesn't really need to make sense. I have a lot less problem with those than with balancing on a cloud. As for social skills and Fanatics, yes, it's game-breaking, but it's also not too implausible: Earth has seen leaders who really did inspire fanaticism from their followers. The problem just comes from being able to do so consistently, but that really reflects more on how the skill system works in general.

Back to the OP's examples, though... I can accept the fact that there's game stats for the Tooth Fairy. But I can't quite grasp that she's evil.

Mewtarthio
2007-09-19, 08:45 PM
Epic DCs aren't supposed to make sense. They're epic. Oddly enough, the only thing that confuses me is the Diplomacy epic skill: If it's nonmagical, then why is it implied that a protection from X spell would suppress it? Surely, if it's just your character being ridiculously convincing, then you'd be able to use it just as well on anything with an Int score. Not that I want it to be any more powerful than it already is, of course.

F.H. Zebedee
2007-09-19, 08:51 PM
"Extremely Tight Space
This is the DC for getting through a space when one’s head shouldn’t even be able to fit; this can be as small as 2 inches square for Medium-size creatures. Halve this limit for each size category less than Medium-size; double it for each size category greater than Medium-size. If the space is long, such as in a chimney, multiple checks may be called for. "
SANTA CLAUSE HAS AN EPIC ESCAPE ARTIST SKILL.

As for the normal tight space, it's got DC 30. Meaning that a 1st level Rogue tweaked out appropriately has a 1/10 chance of having collapsable collarbones. At level 10, they should be slithering through those spaces like some kind of snake.

"Oh, he sleeps in my backpack sometimes, says it makes him feel safe."

And another Skill gem:
"Hide Another
By accepting a -30 penalty on his or her Hide check, a character can hide another adjacent creature whose size is no more than one category larger than the character’s own. Modifiers to the check for the size of the creature still apply, as do all other penalties, including those for moving faster than half speed. Likewise, a character can only hide another creature when it is not under direct observation by a third party. The creature the character hides remains hidden until it is spotted or it takes some other action that breaks its concealment, as normal. "
Meaning that SOMEHOW, a Rogue could hide That Damn Crab, without any special gear or such. Heck, if I'm reading correctly, a Rogue can hide an OPPOSING large creature.

And the Spot DC for Air is 40. ;) THAT would be a fun one to bust out at high levels.

"Roll Spot checks."
"44."
"You are blinded by the air in front of you."

Some of these just amuse me on the mental image, though.
Swim up waterfall? Anybody else see the movie Wrongfully Accused?
And there's a DC for attacking people from hanging down from your mount. Am I the only one imagining Dudly Doright the Paladin, going into combat upside-down on his griffin?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-09-20, 01:46 AM
Read page 2 the legal text at the bottom of the page. It states that Unearthed Arcana is OGC. As such its included in things like the Hypertext SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/).


That things are OGC does not mean that they are also part of the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35).

The SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) is a specific document, not just all OGC published by WotC.

Beleriphon
2007-09-20, 06:36 AM
EDIT: Also, my favorite monster possession is the troll hero's gear. Come on, trolls with assault rifles!

More to the point given that an M16 is a large weapon, and a troll is a large creature it can dual wield assault rifles! Or better yet, make a M2HB something other than a fixed emplacement weapon. Now that is one hell of a squad support weapon.

Zherog
2007-09-20, 06:44 AM
Read page 2 the legal text at the bottom of the page. It states that Unearthed Arcana is OGC. As such its included in things like the Hypertext SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/).

I think our beholder friend covered it well enough.

Note, also, that d20srd.org includes other things that are not in the SRD. For example, it includes the errata. That's super-cool for when you want to look something up, because you don't have to check the rules then check the errata.

However, technically speaking, the errata is not marked as "open" material. As a writer who has to follow the terms of the OGL, this is an important distinction.

John Campbell
2007-09-20, 01:17 PM
The epic skill usage that I think is most bizarre is:

Survival DC 60: Identify race/kind of creature(s) by tracks.

Um, yeah, different kinds of creatures leave different tracks. Human footprints, horse hoofprints, dog pawprints... they all look different. I can tell them apart pretty reliably. Who knew that a few years in Boy Scouts gave me fifty or so ranks in Survival? Plus the Track feat!

Zherog
2007-09-20, 01:26 PM
The epic skill usage that I think is most bizarre is:

Survival DC 60: Identify race/kind of creature(s) by tracks.

Um, yeah, different kinds of creatures leave different tracks. Human footprints, horse hoofprints, dog pawprints... they all look different. I can tell them apart pretty reliably. Who knew that a few years in Boy Scouts gave me fifty or so ranks in Survival? Plus the Track feat!

Can you tell a human's footprint from an elf's footprint? How about an orc's from a half-orc's?

Hurlbut
2007-09-20, 01:40 PM
More to the point given that an M16 is a large weapon, and a troll is a large creature it can dual wield assault rifles! Or better yet, make a M2HB something other than a fixed emplacement weapon. Now that is one hell of a squad support weapon.
Meh, you want squad support weapon? Minigun.

Justin_Bacon
2007-09-20, 03:02 PM
;3218211']There's a balance DC for "cloud," and another for "liquid."
No. Really.
Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm)

Yeah, I know. Those DCs are ridiculously high.

;)

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-20, 03:49 PM
Can you tell a human's footprint from an elf's footprint? How about an orc's from a half-orc's?

If I was a ranger in a fantasy world where they existed, yes. Rudimentary knowledge would allow me to tell the difference (i.e. track feat and maybe 5 or so ranks). An elf's footprint would have a different shape to it because of their lighter frame, maybe even longer toes or such. A half-orc footprint would be broader, with less of an arch (I would image). With all of these races so common, it would not be too hard with the years of study you have gone through.

Zherog
2007-09-20, 04:40 PM
An elf's footprint would have a different shape to it because of their lighter frame, maybe even longer toes or such.

I never said they were barefoot. :smalltongue:

How can you be certain the lighter framed footprint was made by an elf rather than by, say, a young teen?

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-20, 05:21 PM
I never said they were barefoot. :smalltongue:

How can you be certain the lighter framed footprint was made by an elf rather than by, say, a young teen?

None of my examples required them to be barefoot. It would be easier if they were, but still, the boot/shoe would be longer and narrower for an elf and shorter and broader with less of an arch for a half-orc. A young teen might have a narrower foot, but the elf print would be longer. Also, a footprint could tell you more about a creature such as that creature's approximate strength and constitution depending on the weight of the creature (if they are linked).

brian c
2007-09-20, 05:40 PM
Tataraus, fact is that the D&D universe doesn't really exist. If WotC says that you need to roll 60 on Survival to tell the difference between elf footprints and human footprints, then they can. Elf and Human feet must be more similar than you're assuming they are.

Orzel
2007-09-20, 05:49 PM
It's not the footprint, its the pattern of the footprints.
Elves prance, humans walk, dwarves stagger.

I must have epic Survival ranks.

Ulzgoroth
2007-09-20, 06:07 PM
None of my examples required them to be barefoot. It would be easier if they were, but still, the boot/shoe would be longer and narrower for an elf and shorter and broader with less of an arch for a half-orc. A young teen might have a narrower foot, but the elf print would be longer. Also, a footprint could tell you more about a creature such as that creature's approximate strength and constitution depending on the weight of the creature (if they are linked).
We know for a fact that they are not particularly linked. Weight and constitution are quite unrelated (dwarves aren't heavier than humans, and gnomes are of course lighter). Weight and strength might be, possibly...at least, for something with no magical augmentation. Which applies fairly rarely, and you have no good way of recognizing. Not to mention the possibility that something is just overweight.

Also, you'd be making a rough estimate of the creature's total weight. For humanoids, that includes the completely unknown weight of their stuff.

And, feet vary a lot. The human range is immense. You might be able to say that a print looks more like an elvish or orcish foot, but drawing positive conclusions is going to be a lot harder if it's possible at all.

Gait might do you more good...it's probably hard to mistake dwarf, halfling, or gnome tracks for human (or at least, typical adult human), to a competent tracker, because of their much shorter legs. But to be able to say "that's a half-elf, accompanied by a full-blood orc and a gnome.", and be sure that you haven't actually got a half-orc, or a full elf, or maybe a fat halfling, is just not that simple.

Gerrtt
2007-09-20, 07:04 PM
It's not the footprint, its the pattern of the footprints.
Elves prance, humans walk, dwarves stagger.

I must have epic Survival ranks.

Dwarves don't stagger, they hobble!

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-20, 07:19 PM
We know for a fact that they are not particularly linked. Weight and constitution are quite unrelated (dwarves aren't heavier than humans, and gnomes are of course lighter). Weight and strength might be, possibly...at least, for something with no magical augmentation. Which applies fairly rarely, and you have no good way of recognizing. Not to mention the possibility that something is just overweight.

Also, you'd be making a rough estimate of the creature's total weight. For humanoids, that includes the completely unknown weight of their stuff.

And, feet vary a lot. The human range is immense. You might be able to say that a print looks more like an elvish or orcish foot, but drawing positive conclusions is going to be a lot harder if it's possible at all.

Gait might do you more good...it's probably hard to mistake dwarf, halfling, or gnome tracks for human (or at least, typical adult human), to a competent tracker, because of their much shorter legs. But to be able to say "that's a half-elf, accompanied by a full-blood orc and a gnome.", and be sure that you haven't actually got a half-orc, or a full elf, or maybe a fat halfling, is just not that simple.

I am assuming gait, footprint, etc. are all included while observing so when I say "footprint" I'm thinking of the whole scene, so for not being clear. Of course, like brian c said, its DnD they set the rules so there is no point in arguing it. I'm just pointing out that the designers think it is a lot harder to identify tracks then it really is. So, in short, there is no need to argue the matter, so for encouraging the derailing of this thread.

Orzel
2007-09-20, 07:39 PM
Dwarves don't stagger, they hobble!

No they don't hobble. Dwarves walk evenly, just not in straight lines because of the alcohol. They alternate left and right turns every 3-6 steps depending of BAC. It becomes permanent after a few years and lasts even while sober. Binds with their strong bodies some say. Others say it's genetic.

Drider
2007-09-20, 07:50 PM
No they don't hobble. Dwarves walk evenly, just not in straight lines because of the alcohol. They alternate left and right turns every 3-6 steps depending of BAC. It becomes permanent after a few years and lasts even while sober. Binds with their strong bodies some say. Others say it's genetic.

dwarves always looked like rabbits to me, cause in pictures with them fighting they're (a) HOPPING into battle, (b) mid-slash

John Campbell
2007-09-21, 01:22 AM
Can you tell a human's footprint from an elf's footprint? How about an orc's from a half-orc's?

Yeah, but there are no gradients of similiarity in the DC. You want to tell orc tracks from half-orc tracks? DC 60. Okay, that's not totally unreasonable. Estimating the human:orc ratio in a particular being's ancestry just by looking his bootprints... yes, this is probably difficult.

Want to tell horse tracks from unicorn tracks? DC 60. Less reasonable; they're basically the same kind of critter, but unicorns traditionally have cloven hooves where horses don't. This should be fairly clear from tracks.

You want to tell great wyrm tracks from kitten tracks? DC 60! Um... yeah... I don't think so.

<Agierr>
And the word for the way dwarves walk isn't "stagger", it's "swagger".

Yeah, sure, we drink a lot - of the pisswater you humans call alcohol - but that doesn't mean we're drunk. Racial bonus to Con, racial bonus on saves vs. poisons, a preferred class with good Fort progression, racial bonus to stability, and we've got roughly the same body mass as a human. It takes a lot to get a dwarf staggering drunk. The reason we drink so much is because that's what it takes to get even a mild buzz when drinking in human taverns.
</Ageirr>

Zincorium
2007-09-21, 02:55 AM
I just wanted to note that every time I read the thread's title the phrase "Ground control to major tom..." floats through my head.

This is not in any way relevant.

Dhavaer
2007-09-21, 04:07 AM
I just wanted to note that every time I read the thread's title the phrase "Ground control to major tom..." floats through my head.

This is not in any way relevant.

Whenever I hear that song I always imagine someone singing it to Voldemort.

This is possibly even less relevant.

Kioran
2007-09-21, 05:40 AM
The fact that nothing contradicts people using their lance two-handed on amounted charge. Wtf? It´s a matter of direction, really, so you´d need to sit sideways in the saddle. Anyone that attempts such a thing at my table is going to roll a DC=Damage Ride Check to avoid falling prone and suffering 1d6*Mount speed/10 damage.
Seriously. Wtf?

Zincorium
2007-09-21, 05:56 AM
The fact that nothing contradicts people using their lance two-handed on amounted charge. Wtf? It´s a matter of direction, really, so you´d need to sit sideways in the saddle. Anyone that attempts such a thing at my table is going to roll a DC=Damage Ride Check to avoid falling prone and suffering 1d6*Mount speed/10 damage.
Seriously. Wtf?

Heres one explanation. It involves placing your other hand as a support for the lance, holding it straight as it's couched into your shoulder. Think holding a rifle, and for the same reasons.

With the additional support, the lance is much less likely to glance off the side, which would reduce the penetration and damage, thus justifying the higher damage from strength (a stronger hold is better).

The lance would be held somewhat less to the side, not more so, but angled a bit instead of straight so as to not run the horse into whatever you're charging.

The real reason this was probably never done is you lose the benefit of a shield, which in the real world as opposed to D&D, is not something you'd give up lightly.

Kioran
2007-09-21, 06:13 AM
Heres one explanation. It involves placing your other hand as a support for the lance, holding it straight as it's couched into your shoulder. Think holding a rifle, and for the same reasons.

With the additional support, the lance is much less likely to glance off the side, which would reduce the penetration and damage, thus justifying the higher damage from strength (a stronger hold is better).

The lance would be held somewhat less to the side, not more so, but angled a bit instead of straight so as to not run the horse into whatever you're charging.

The real reason this was probably never done is you lose the benefit of a shield, which in the real world as opposed to D&D, is not something you'd give up lightly.

That might actually make some sense, even though it is against RAI and, in my opinion, cheesy at best, especially with spirited charge.

Glyphic
2007-09-21, 06:17 AM
This has confused me in both the PHB and the SRD.


Guard dogs.

Where are they? What are their stats? Why do they have no description anywhere, and why do they cost 125 gold less than a riding dog?

kamikasei
2007-09-21, 06:21 AM
Guard dogs.

Where are they? What are their stats? Why do they have no description anywhere, and why do they cost 125 gold less than a riding dog?

Well, riding dogs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm) are specially-trained mounts that can be ridden into battle. A guard dog is just... a dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dog.htm). Presumably. It's there to make Spot and Listen checks, and bark.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-21, 07:13 AM
Riding dogs are medium sized, guard dogs are small sized. Riding dogs also have that built in trip mechanism. The expense comes largely from the time invested in training the animals. The riding dog I believe has combat riding training like a warhorse... the guard dog has the lesser trained for guarding. See Handle Animal for tricks.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-21, 07:27 AM
RE: Lances

When carrying a lance about on a horse, there is often a holster for the butt end of it and you carry it in the upright, non-combat position. When you attack with it, you time the tip to drop into position moments before impact to minimize the time that you have to keep it extended.

When mounted, you and your horse are essentially counted as a single creature that is large. A two handed weapon, sized for a medium creature, can be wielded one handed in a large creature. That explains the usage one handed on horseback. It could conceivably be used two handed on horseback, but generally isn't much of a consideration due to combat penalties to riding potentially causing you to use that second hand to control the horse.

Seriously though, lances were really only used for that first charge, then they switched to swords, maces and flails.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-09-21, 07:37 AM
I just wanted to note that every time I read the thread's title the phrase "Ground control to major tom..." floats through my head.

This is not in any way relevant.

Thanks... Now I'll be humming that song all day.

As for the 'Dragons VS. Rabbit' tracks, the rules are quite ridiculous. Terrible RAW. IMO, the DM should give at least some indication of the tracks being followed,like 'small pads', 'large clawed feet', 'big boots', etc...

Citizen Joe
2007-09-21, 07:56 AM
RE: Tracking

Track lets you find and follow "Tracks". To me, tracks aren't so much footprints, as signs of a creature passing through. So, yes, footprints can be part of it, but overturned stones, scratched moss, broken branches, wheel ruts, etc. are all part of the "Track". It specifically says you can find a footprint using a Search check. Once you find the footprint, a knowledge check could be used to guess the type of creature. The epic usage of track/survival combines all that into a single check.

So in the boyscout example, you might not even have track or search skills at all, if someone pointed out the foot print for you. You might only have a single rank in knowledge: nature (animals) and then roll well enough to recognize the footprint. If you brought your boyscout's handbook, with pictures of prints, then you probably got +2 bonus to your check. So it really isn't all that amazing.

If instead, you're wandering through the woods, notice some disturbed leaves and determine (with certainty) that a deer and foal passed by followed by a bobcat, then that would be epic.

philippos
2007-09-21, 09:01 AM
Dwarves don't stagger, they hobble!

I think its halflings that hobble....i read it in a certain book , somthing about hoblings and halfles er halflings and hobbling.


it was precious

internerdj
2007-09-21, 12:12 PM
Yeah, but there are no gradients of similiarity in the DC. You want to tell orc tracks from half-orc tracks? DC 60. Okay, that's not totally unreasonable. Estimating the human:orc ratio in a particular being's ancestry just by looking his bootprints... yes, this is probably difficult.

Want to tell horse tracks from unicorn tracks? DC 60. Less reasonable; they're basically the same kind of critter, but unicorns traditionally have cloven hooves where horses don't. This should be fairly clear from tracks.

You want to tell great wyrm tracks from kitten tracks? DC 60! Um... yeah... I don't think so.

<Agierr>
And the word for the way dwarves walk isn't "stagger", it's "swagger".

Yeah, sure, we drink a lot - of the pisswater you humans call alcohol - but that doesn't mean we're drunk. Racial bonus to Con, racial bonus on saves vs. poisons, a preferred class with good Fort progression, racial bonus to stability, and we've got roughly the same body mass as a human. It takes a lot to get a dwarf staggering drunk. The reason we drink so much is because that's what it takes to get even a mild buzz when drinking in human taverns.
</Ageirr>

You missed identifying a beholder by its footprints. Definitely epic...

Roderick_BR
2007-09-21, 04:00 PM
You think that's bad? Take a look at some others!
Diplomacy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm) and Perform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm) (go fanatics!) -- A bard can become a god very easily by these rules and a DM that goes by RAW.
But Escape Artist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/escapeArtist.htm) is the one that really gets me and justs begs the question how?!?!?!?!?
This is better: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#passthroughWallofForce
Just apply some theories on meta physics, magic, and science, and you can not only find a weak point, or a "gap" in a force construct, but you can also pass through it.