Rogue Vs Spellcaster (Answered)

[Garland Voth]

I'm a rogue that has convinced the mages that I'm a spellcaster. I'm now in a mage duel for the marriage of another PC. Desperate to win, I've turned to you to aid me in my pursuit. (I'm a level 11 mastermind rogue whom is fighting a level 14 evocation wizard.)

I have access to any wand(s) that casts a spell below 4th (3.5e style) with a maximum total of eight spell levels. I have access to any uncommon magic item. I can't simply shank them as weapons are supposed to be forbidden, but I could (possibly) smuggle a shank in to do so.

Unfortunately, contact with the mage pre-duel has been prevented using a geas spell. I can cheat all I want if I can get a party member to aid me, but I can't interact with them at all pre-duel.

All officially published content is considered allowed. (Xanathars, Volos, PHb, DMG, etc)

With context out of the way, time for the actual question!

Are there any spells particularly effective against spellcasters (other than counterspell), and what magic items are also effective.

If you have any underhanded tactics to try and sabotage the match feel free. I will edit this main post to respond to questions regarding specificity and circumstance. Any help is appreciated.

*Edit 1*
So, when it comes to the arena, we're in a decent sized arena, not a small enclosed area. As a second point, the mage in question is a DM self-inserted guy. They have stats so high they can basically negate any throw. On the bright side, he'll be posting the stats of each "Contestant" so that everything "seems" fair. AC is approachable, but I can't stab them while everyone is watching.

*Edit 2*
The Geas is "You may not directly interact with other members of the duel until the appointed hour. This includes poisoning their food and drink, manipulating their sleeping areas, or altering their equipment."

*Edit 3*
I've received a ton of useful tips and answers. The ideas are great, and the themes seem the same.

The general consensus is get a wand with a charge for shadow blade, fog cloud, invisibility.
Blinding Dust would be useful, but again, tier saves would likely negate it unless the DM is feeling nice.
The idea of putting a bag on their head is hysterical, and I'm totally going to do it. I'll even shout "Blinding Spell!" when doing it.
Smoke bombs are a great idea, as they can't be counterspelled.
The idea of a friendly sorcerer is great.
I'll spend some time in the arena itself (The Geas doesn't cover that!) and set up some traps.

Thanks for your help guys!

[UnintensifiedFa]

Off of the top of my head, I can think of two that would be useful to you.
1) Silence, prevent verbal components of spells, this is essential when fighting a mage and
2) Blink, being able to dodge 1/2 of the mages effects and teleport right behind him, yes please.

[Aett_Thorn]

Do you know what kind of environment you’ll be fighting in? Some sort of arena? A cave with lots of boulders or a forest with trees to hide behind? A wide open plain?

Knowing where your are going to fight is helpful in planning this kind of thing. The suggestions above are good (Silence and Blink), but any mate worth his salt will just walk out of the area of Silence on his next turn if he can. This spell becomes a lot more useful if you can keep him there.

Hold Person is another good spell if they don’t have a great Wisdom save, since it will allow you to have some free turns to do whatever you need to do (including a potential shank, because Gishes are mages, too!).

[JakOfAllTirades]

An allied Sorcerer with the subtle spell metamagic could cast spells without revealing their origin, and you could pretend to be the one casting them. Neat trick if you can pull it off, but hard to set up if you can't talk to the sorcerer before the duel. It sounds like your geas prevents this.

The evoker definitely has good Int/Wis saves, so stay away from those spell effects that target those. Go after Dex & Con instead. Use Invisibility or Blind him so he can't use spells that require line of sight. Once he's reduced to using area effect spells, your Evasion ability will nerf those.

The trouble is, I'm looking at the list of magic items and it seems most of those that create spell effects require attunement by a spellcaster. There are a few exceptions, such as the Necklace of Fireballs, the Horn of Blasting, etc. They're hard to come by.

[Unoriginal]

Acid, oil and alchemist's fire are your friend there.

In fact, pretty much anything you can do with an alchemist's lab, from smoke to bright light, would be good.

Given you're allowed wands and magic items, I suppose all items bar weapons are allowed? If you can hide the bottles when you're using them, and the remains afterward, you could make your alchemical concoctions seem to be spells. Provided no one use is smart enough to look at what you're doing and understand you're not doing magic. And most of the wizards in the audience should be smart enough.

In term of wands, I think you should get a Wand of Invisibility.

As a Rogue, you'll be great at hiding (or at least can do it as a bonus action), while you're invisible the enemy caster can't use all the "must see the targets" spells against you, and during that time you can steal all you opponent's magic items, their focus and their component bag, without breaking invisibility.

You can also stuff their pockets with alchemist's fire without them noticing and then break the bottles for an explosive finish.

[Keravath]

Hi!

Does every interaction have to look like a spell? Can you utilize touch attack spells like shocking grasp?

As far as I can tell, you can not win if you do not somehow use weapon attacks with your sneak attack damage so the key would be to make the strike look like some form of touch attack spell or possibly an attack with a wand.

I would suggest obtaining a very sharp metal wand (insulated handle) that can cast shocking grasp (or maybe lightning bolt) and then use the mastermind help bonus action to enable sneak attack ... then use your disguise and acting ability to make it look like a touch spell from the wand rather than a piercing strike from the wand that is inflicting the damage. You could roleplay it as liking to feel your spells strike your target personally, especially if there is some significant animosity involved in the duel.

P.S. to follow on the previous posters suggestion of invisibility ... some sort of item providing limited charges of greater invisibility would be ideal.

[Mr.Spastic]

I would recommend casting shadow blade. It's a wizard spell so nobody would be suspicious. Then you can walk up to your opponent and wail on him with sneak attacks(if you can get them). I would say to request the duel at night so you can also do some hiding and other rogue stuff. Invisibility is also fun.

[JellyPooga]

What's the goal of the duel? Is it a fight to the death? KO? Is there some other "goal" (like "defence" or "capture the flag")? The answer to that will change your tactics dramatically.

[Unoriginal]

Just to know, are you having a duel to the death?

Because sleep-inducing poison also exist.

[lunaticfringe]

Banishment, preferably from behind while invisible or while your opponent is blind to avoid counterspell. Then make sure to disparage Evokers & the school of Evocation, like a proper wizard.

[Dragons_Ire]

Shadow blade is a brilliant choice - it's a spell, but then you can shank away! Especially if combined with greater invisibility. Silence is a great option too, especially if you have a decent grapple score.

[Skylivedk]

I'm a rogue that has convinced the mages that I'm a spellcaster. I'm now in a mage duel for the marriage of another PC. Desperate to win, I've turned to you to aid me in my persuit. (I'm a level 11 mastermind rogue whom is fighting a level 14 evocation wizard.)

I have access to any wand(s) that casts a spell below 4th (3.5e style) with a maximum total of eight spell levels. I have access to any uncommon magic item. I can't simply shank them as weapons are supposed to be forbidden, but I could (possibly) smuggle a shank in to do so.

Unfortunately, contact with the mage pre-duel has been prevented using a geas spell. I can cheat all I want if I can get a party member to aid me, but I can't interact with them at all pre-duel.

All officially published content is considered allowed. (Xanathars, Volos, PHb, DMG, etc)

With context out of the way, time for the actual question!

Are there any spells particularly effective against spellcasters (other than counterspell), and what magic items are also effective.

If you have any underhanded tactics to try and sabatoge the match feel free. I will edit this main post to respond to questions regarding specificity and circumstance. Any help is appreciated.

*Edit 1*
So, when it comes to the arena, we're in a decent sized arena, not a small enclosed area. As a second point, the mage in question is a DM self-inserted guy. They have stats so high they can basically negate any throw. On the bright side, he'll be posting the stats of each "Contestant" so that everything "seems" fair.

For you, darkness/fog cloud/etc. between audiences/judges and the competitor is great. A lot of leeway to shank him with the dagger hidden in a fake wand.


An allied Sorcerer with the subtle spell metamagic could cast spells without revealing their origin, and you could pretend to be the one casting them. Neat trick if you can pull it off, but hard to set up if you can't talk to the sorcerer before the duel. It sounds like your geas prevents this.

The evoker definitely has good Int/Wis saves, so stay away from those spell effects that target those. Go after Dex & Con instead. Use Invisibility or Blind him so he can't use spells that require line of sight. Once he's reduced to using area effect spells, your Evasion ability will nerf those.

The trouble is, I'm looking at the list of magic items and it seems most of those that create spell effects require attunement by a spellcaster. There are a few exceptions, such as the Necklace of Fireballs, the Horn of Blasting, etc. They're hard to come by.

Subtle spells from sorcerers is a great idea. Strength and charisma targeting spells are even better than dex and con.


Acid, oil and alchemist's fire are your friend there.

In fact, pretty much anything you can do with an alchemist's lab, from smoke to bright light, would be good.

Given you're allowed wands and magic items, I suppose all items bar weapons are allowed? If you can hide the bottles when you're using them, and the remains afterward, you could make your alchemical concoctions seem to be spells. Provided no one use is smart enough to look at what you're doing and understand you're not doing magic. And most of the wizards in the audience should be smart enough.

In term of wands, I think you should get a Wand of Invisibility.

As a Rogue, you'll be great at hiding (or at least can do it as a bonus action), while you're invisible the enemy caster can't use all the "must see the targets" spells against you, and during that time you can steal all you opponent's magic items, their focus and their component bag, without breaking invisibility.

You can also stuff their pockets with alchemist's fire without them noticing and then break the bottles for an explosive finish.

I love the robbing him blind idea. Very, very strong. If you want to do it, consider ways to bring up dust where you aren't so it looks like you are robbing him with magic (trip wires pulled as you steal from him).


Just to know, are you having a duel to the death?

Because sleep-inducing poison also exist.

Check all poisons basically...

[Throne12]

Cast Silence then cast Telekinesis. Now that mage is all yours they cant do anything. He would have to use there turn trying to pass a str save. Once you have that done pull out a wand of magic missile and unload on him
If this isn't possible then some magic items to pick up are.

First get a ring of telekinesis and a wand of magic missile. And then a Ring of Air Elemental Command. And a staff of lighting the thunder.

[follacchioso]

What about Enlarging or Polimorphing yourself, then grappling the mage and sneak attack him?

Which Expertises do you have?

[NecroDancer]

Use paralysis poison and claim it’s a hold person spell.

Smoke bomb can be a fog cloud spell

Also you can claim that you have training in rogue skills to explain your use of knives/daggers.

[Nhorianscum]

Assuming any spell 4th or lower cap of 8.

Earthen grasp (plan A), counterspell (Plan A part 2), dispel magic (Contengency is a bitch). Broom of flying. 25 ft of rope.

Hide-> Earthen Grasp -> counterspell misty step attempts-> laugh as the restrained wizard takes 20d6 crushing damage over the next minute.

Bring a set of gloves covered in the inhilation or contact poison of your choice and just dose the fool up once he's dealing with a bad case of "dieing" to add insult and injury to more insult and injury.

Backup plan is a nifty garotte (under some sort of cover). It's close enough to your own prefered method of murder to pass a casual inspection and is extremely easy to conceal. Hit em with contact/inhalation and strangle the pinned, restrained, and silent wizard.

Plan C if outdoors): Uncommon Item: Broom of flying. Fly up, use rope, dispel magic on his fly spell. Hang em.

[ImproperJustice]

Put a bag over his head.
I am serious.
Rush him, bag him and beat him mercilessly.

Or cast Dagger, to his chest as fast as you can.

If possible, some kind of smoke bombs could be handy. Mages require being able to see and speak to use most of their abilities.

Target those weaknesses.
Spend a few minutes in the kitchen, and put some metal shavings and pepper in a shell made of sugar. Aim at bad guys face.
A small sack of flower may acheive a similar effect.

[Misterwhisper]

Am I the only one thinking take the Indiana Jones approach to this?

Start mage duel, shank him in he kidney til he stops twitching.

Look to the crowd and hope to make a good Persuasion roll to convince them, that was the cool way to win, and thus is ok.

More on topic, it sounds like your DM has it in his head who he probably wants to win so don't play his fixed game.

He is setting you up to lose, so cheat to win.

[JackPhoenix]

I love how many people obviously haven't read the OP, considering the amount of "stab him" suggestions. However...


As a second point, the mage in question is a DM self-inserted guy. They have stats so high they can basically negate any throw.

make it sound like you're screwed no matter what you try. What's the exact wording of that Geas? There may be some loophole you can use for your benefit...

[Unoriginal]

I love how many people obviously haven't read the OP, considering the amount of "stab him" suggestions. However...



make it sound like you're screwed no matter what you try. What's the exact wording of that Geas? There may be some loophole you can use for your benefit...

Dude, OP edited that in after those suggestions.

Also "negate any throwW =/= "immune to stab".

A Wand of Invisibility and a Wand of Shadow Blade seems like OP's best bet if their character go to the fight.


But honestly I would just leave that group, personally. It sounds like the DM just want to have a power trip at the PC's expense

[JackPhoenix]

Dude, OP edited that in after those suggestions.

Nope. Edited part is the layout of the arena and the mention of the enemy being GM's self-insert. But even if you ignore that, the post shows the time of edit: 1:44 PM, before anything but the first two post that don't mention attacking the enemy spellcaster with weapons.

[Evil the Cat]

If you're just using wands, you can own this.

Greater Invisibility, Nondetection, Shadowblade.

Now you can freely run around shanking the wizard. to everyone else, you disappear and various injuries keep happening to the enemy wizard.

The nondetection means that see invisibility and detect magic can't find you. This means there's almost no way to even target you to dispel your effects. (A bat familiar could work around it, but that's very niche)

Antimagic field shuts it all down, but a fight between a rogue and a wizard in an antimagic field is not good for the wizard.

[Zaltman]

*Edit 2*
The Geas is "You may not directly interact with other members of the duel until the appointed hour. This includes poisoning their food and drink, manipulating their sleeping areas, or altering their equipment."



"You may not directly interact...". Cool. Hire an assassin to do the dirty work ahead of time. That way, "you" are not "directly" interacting. Not as fun, but seems in the spirit of the Geas. Personally, I would have worded the Geas to say "direct or indirect" if I did not want this to be an option.

[Teaguethebean]

You could use something like shadow blade to have an excuse to use a weapon also with magic items using shadow blade and have an allie use staff of the adder to grant you sneak attack with said shadow blade.

[JackPhoenix]

The Geas is "You may not directly interact with other members of the duel until the appointed hour. This includes poisoning their food and drink, manipulating their sleeping areas, or altering their equipment."

OK, now I'm confused... are the other PCs members of the duel for some reason?

Even then, "directly interact" is a hole big enough to shove the Tarrasque through. Sending a message, either through middle-man or written, isn't direct interaction. Setting up the sorcerer plan is easy with that non-restriction. Or hiring people to do all kinds of sneaky stuff... stealing foci or components is obvious, but how about replacing them with fakes? It's not you doing that stuff. Fun idea would be making it look like your opponent is the one cheating... get someone to dispel his Geas, then make it look like you were sabotaged in some way.. Geas doesn't do much damage, but its presence, or lack of it in this case, could be detected through Detect Magic. You're a rogue, you *can* convince whoever judges the dual that's clear proof of foul play on his part.

Hex may be helpful, the extra damage propably won't account for much, but the disadvantage on one type of ability checks could be useful if you want to grapple and keep the enemy in the Silence area.

If you have the time and money to spend, and could sneak it in, put as much Glyphs of Warding inside the arena as you can. You don't even need to get fancy with spells... half of 5d8 (and let's assume resistance too, for another halving) may not be much, but if you put dozens of the glyphs there, it will add up. Different damage types, to circumvent Absorb Elements.

[Silkensword]

If you can survive the geas damage, you can also elect to ignore it.