The Sumo: is it possible to make an adventurer too heavy to be wrestled?

[Unoriginal]

A somewhat silly idea that I had thinking about 5e's grappling rules and the like.

5e is pretty clear that your own weight does not encumber you. However, all other creatures who'd try to grapple and move you would have to be able to handle your weight.

So I was thinking: is it possible to create a PC that's so heavy they can't be moved around (at least by humanoids).

The Good, the Bad and the Heavy:

Here's a list of PC races I imagine being the heaviest, please correct me if it is incomplete.



Race
Max. weight (lbs)
Max. weight from dice roll (lbs)


Goliath
340
440


Firbolg
300
463


Bugbear
350
488


Warforged Juggernaut
450
??


Loxodon
400
??


Tortle
450
??


















To this, you can add equipment weight up to their encumbrance limit.

So far, it means the STR 20 Bugbear is the heaviest with a total of 1088 lbs. Which would require a Medium creature a STR of 36 to move without Powerful Build, or a Large/Medium creature with Powerful Build a STR of 18, assuming they're naked.

Notably, it'd make trolls unable to lift the character.

Anyway, here's my silly calculation, if you have more datas or ideas about it I'd be happy to see them.

Edit: thanks Naanomi for the Bear Barbarian and Brawny feat info, I had forgotten about them. And thanks RickAsWritten for the Tortle weight.

As a Bear Barbarian, this STR 20 Bugbear would be able to carry double of the weight, for a total of 1688 lbs, meaning a Large/Medium creature with Powerful Build would need STR 28. With the Brawny feat, that would go up to 2888 lbs, aka it'd take a Huge creature with a STR of 24 to move that Bugbear. If naked.

[DMThac0]

I rather enjoy this, it's a fun thought, being able to figure out how big you'd have to get before parts of grappling couldn't apply to you.

Now, something that makes me curious though:

I understand that at some point in time the weight of your opponent could reach a peak to where you'd be unable to lift the person as you would a sack of rice or a medicine ball. Heck there'd even be a point where you'd be unable to push/pull the person if they were sitting down.

My curiosity lay in the word you used in your title: Sumo. Sumos are huge, generally, and they're difficult to move if they choose to become stationary. However, Sumo is a very deceptive martial art, one that uses manipulation of momentum and balance to achieve victory. I would wonder if/how that could be applied to this thought experiment.

[Naanomi]

Bear Totem can double carry weight... if UA is allowed, the Brawny feat does the same... if be looking at centaur for heavy weight with max carry weight

[RickAsWritten]

Tortles are in the same weight class: they average 450lbs., but there is no table for rolling.

[GlenSmash!]

Huh I've thought about making a character that can lift the most, but never one that would be so difficult to lift.

Until you run into a Giant.

[Naanomi]

Ravnica Centaurs are way heavier than anything else (base weight 600lbs before any rolling!) and have an equivalent of Powerful Build

[Unoriginal]

Huh I've thought about making a character that can lift the most, but never one that would be so difficult to lift.

Until you run into a Giant.

Well Sharl Atlas the BugBearbarian couldn't be lifted even by a Storm Giant. Though they could be dragged/pushed, as long as the Storm Giant isn't wearing anything heavy.

[GlenSmash!]

Well Sharl Atlas the BugBearbarian couldn't be lifted even by a Storm Giant. Though they could be dragged/pushed, as long as the Storm Giant isn't wearing anything heavy.

Right, I missed the part about the Brawny feat.

That was my favorite part of that UA.

[willdaBEAST]

I think if you experiment with a quality like this, you should consider some of the consequences. If you're knocked prone, can you get up by yourself? Does it matter if you fall on your back or your stomach? What happens if you land on top of another creature?

[Unoriginal]

I think if you experiment with a quality like this, you should consider some of the consequences. If you're knocked prone, can you get up by yourself?

Sure, you're still able to lift yourself even with the equipment



Does it matter if you fall on your back or your stomach?

Nope.



What happens if you land on top of another creature?

Good question. I'd say: improvised damage section of the DMG.

Even funnier, at higher level you can take the Totem Barbarian power to fly.

[GlenSmash!]

As far as I can tell being a Werebear and in Hybrid form, which is size Large, would double capacity once more.

[Dr. Cliché]

Ravnica Centaurs are way heavier than anything else (base weight 600lbs before any rolling!) and have an equivalent of Powerful Build

It's almost as if they are Medium in name only. :smallwink:

[Naanomi]

It's almost as if they are Medium in name only. :smallwink:
Feel free to make them large and then physically maneuver any of the published modules if you want to correct the discrepancy :smallwink:

[Dr. Cliché]

Feel free to make them large and then physically maneuver any of the published modules if you want to correct the discrepancy :smallwink:

Eh? :smallconfused:

[Naanomi]

Eh? :smallconfused:
The published modules are filled with 5’ passages and doorways that would prevent large sized PCs from gaining physical access to much of the locations without extensive building/dungeon reconstruction if they were ‘really’ large size

[Dr. Cliché]

The published modules are filled with 5’ passages and doorways that would prevent large sized PCs from gaining physical access to much of the locations without extensive building/dungeon reconstruction if they were ‘really’ large size

Okay, but I'm still not following the logic here.

I'm not advocating that Centaurs change in terms of their in-game size, merely that they be appropriately labelled. Horses are Large creatures, yet somehow bolting a human torso to one turns them into Medium creatures. :smallconfused:

If you're that worried about them not fitting into narrow passages, just give them a rule that they can squeeze themselves into 2 5ft squares (assuming they're not too fat :smallwink:).

[Unoriginal]

There ARE rules for Large creatures to squeeze into 5ft spaces.

[GlenSmash!]

There ARE rules for Large creatures to squeeze into 5ft spaces.

Indeed unless actually fighting in an squeezed space, it's really only a minor inconvenience.

[OldTrees1]

I'm not advocating that Centaurs change in terms of their in-game size, merely that they be appropriately labelled. Horses are Large creatures, yet somehow bolting a human torso to one turns them into Medium creatures. :smallconfused:

Note 1: Modern horses, being the product of various breeding programs, are larger than ancient horses.
Note 2: Growing an additional feature takes away nutrition that could have been used on other features.
So while Centaurs could be full sized horses with the addition of a larger humanoid upper frame, they could be using a smaller breed of horse as the base than the bred horses we see in the monster manual and could have their equine portion end up even smaller than the horse breed they are based on.

Now to go revivify that catgirl. :smallwink:

But yeah, that size discrepancy is weird.

[Dr. Cliché]

Note 1: Modern horses, being the product of various breeding programs, are larger than ancient horses.

Okay. Entirely irrelevant but okay. :smallconfused:



Note 2: Growing an additional feature takes away nutrition that could have been used on other features.

Have you looked in the Monster Manual? D&D is hardly a setting that strives for biological accuracy. :smallwink:



So while Centaurs could be full sized horses with the addition of a larger humanoid upper frame, they could be using a smaller breed of horse as the base than the bred horses we see in the monster manual and could have their equine portion end up even smaller than the horse breed they are based on.

Except their fluff makes it clear that this isn't the case:

"In size, they are comparable to a human rider mounted on a horse."

[OldTrees1]

Except their fluff makes it clear that this isn't the case:

"In size, they are comparable to a human rider mounted on a horse."

Yeah, I was trying (and failing) to make the weird discrepancy make sense in my head.

[Laserlight]

The published modules are filled with 5’ passages and doorways that would prevent large sized PCs from gaining physical access to much of the locations without extensive building/dungeon reconstruction if they were ‘really’ large size

This is a feature, not a bug.
Having been in some of the castles of France and Italy...some places, particularly spiral stairs, are a pain for one Medium human male 5ft10" tall in shorts and sneakers. Someone 6'8", 400lb plus armor and leather soled boots would find it extremely difficult, and a centaur would be laughable.

And then you add typical adventurer fare such a jumping over a pit, walking a narrow ledge, escaping out a window, crossing a rope bridge, paddling a canoe, etc etc. No centaurs in my party, please.

[MagneticKitty]

Polymorph a t-rex, shapechange something cr 20 that's heavy, or true polymorph into an ancient dragon. Done.

Also lv 20 barb can have 24 str

[OvisCaedo]

Well, technically, weight has absolutely nothing to do with what can be dragged around in a grapple, according to Crawford (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/907788091267543040). But he also admits that it is largely because they didn't even make weights for creatures.

Frankly, I wonder how many large/huge creatures would be completely incapable of dragging around each other if realistic weights were extrapolated onto them. Can a giant even drag a giant around, by the given rules for carrying capacity? Going up a size class would multiply weight by roughly 8, and carrying capacity by only two... Hm.

edit: using the given numbers, and using a rough base of 150 pounds for a humanoid before needing to 64x it for the change to huge category, it would just barely take four fire giants to drag a single fire giant's body around at 5 feet a round. If he's actually wearing 3000 pound full plate, the four can still barely pull it off, I think... and also the single giant would be largely incapable of moving. This stuff just doesn't scale enough at all, I suppose because PCs are never meant to be in these sizes.

[Asmotherion]

Sure, you're still able to lift yourself even with the equipment



Nope.



Good question. I'd say: improvised damage section of the DMG.

Even funnier, at higher level you can take the Totem Barbarian power to fly.

Alright, this one seems fun.

The damage cap for improvised damage is at 20d6. He would deal damage as at least a Size category more that himself for the weight, maybe two? Then, extra damage for the distance he covers as he falls, and take some recoil damage (though in a rage, most will be mitigated). Not a bad way to hit 20d6 at an early level (given enough fall).

[Unoriginal]

Well, technically, weight has absolutely nothing to do with what can be dragged around in a grapple, according to Crawford (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/907788091267543040). But he also admits that it is largely because they didn't even make weights for creatures.

Fair enough. It was a fun thougt experiment, but the game doesn't support it.

Also let's be honest, 5e not being simulationist, coming up with the weights for creatures and their equipment would be additional, tedious work which would only matter in some edge cases, likely slow down the game, and be otherwise dead weight.

[Spiritchaser]

Fair enough. It was a fun thougt experiment, but the game doesn't support it.

Also let's be honest, 5e not being simulationist, coming up with the weights for creatures and their equipment would be additional, tedious work which would only matter in some edge cases, likely slow down the game, and be otherwise dead weight.

My current DM is actually pretty concerned about this, and does have ballpark weights for creatures to address this very point.

I think it significantly devalues grappler builds, but it does add some reality and believeable constraints.

I’ve never tried but if he wants to to do the legwork more power to him.