Six stats at 18

[FrancisBean]

A lot of optimizational threads are restricted in multiclassing options by the MAD (Multiple Ability Dependency) problem. This led me to consider the question: how would you optimize if that weren't an issue? If all of your stats were good?

Putting the question simply, "What would your character plan be if you rolled six 18's for stats?" Bearing in mind that certain races can start you with +2 for 20 -- that is, I'm talking about what you'd do if you legitimately rolled six 18's on six 3d6's and hadn't picked your race yet.

I'm wondering just how much of the 5e optimizational plan depends on stats.

[Misterwhisper]

A lot of optimizational threads are restricted in multiclassing options by the MAD (Multiple Ability Dependency) problem. This led me to consider the question: how would you optimize if that weren't an issue? If all of your stats were good?

Putting the question simply, "What would your character plan be if you rolled six 18's for stats?" Bearing in mind that certain races can start you with +2 for 20 -- that is, I'm talking about what you'd do if you legitimately rolled six 18's on six 3d6's and hadn't picked your race yet.

I'm wondering just how much of the 5e optimizational plan depends on stats.

Stats determine TONS of parts of character builds simply because the system was built with their low end point buy as the base.

With those stats I would finally be able to play a monk without feeling completely behind.

Or a total skill sponge build and be the guy who wins at all rolls.

[Aaron Underhand]

Paladin - finally you can get Str, Dex, Con and Cha, which you need....

Or say a fighter with PAM, GWM, SS and XBE... just for fun :-)


Actually knowing you don't need ASIs opens up lots of additional races for builds which otherwise need a specific race, or vHuman for the early feat...

[djreynolds]

I think a paladin bladesinger would be cool

[Lonely Tylenol]

I’d play a Paladin 6/Monk 14. Proficiency in all saves, 20 in your relevant defensive stats (Dex/Wis/Cha), plus enough ASIs left over to get feats to flavor your style. Be an incredibly hard-to-kill, mobile, versatile killing machine that can just float around the battle freely, doing whatever they want.

[FrancisBean]

I’d play a Paladin 6/Monk 14. Proficiency in all saves, 20 in your relevant defensive stats (Dex/Wis/Cha), plus enough ASIs left over to get feats to flavor your style. Be an incredibly hard-to-kill, mobile, versatile killing machine that can just float around the battle freely, doing whatever they want.

Ow. That's almost, "I make my save." "Uh, I didn't see you roll?" "Yeah... I make my save!"

[Mith]

I’d play a Paladin 6/Monk 14. Proficiency in all saves, 20 in your relevant defensive stats (Dex/Wis/Cha), plus enough ASIs left over to get feats to flavor your style. Be an incredibly hard-to-kill, mobile, versatile killing machine that can just float around the battle freely, doing whatever they want.

This result in a +16 to saves at the higher levels? Proficient (+6),+5 (stat), +5 (Cha to save), if I recall correctly? You can still potentially mess up a DC 18+ save, but very rarely.

[JNAProductions]

Grab a cloak and ring of protection.

+18 to saves, if you have a 20, so you auto pass DC 19.

[Mith]

Grab a cloak and ring of protection.

+18 to saves, if you have a 20, so you auto pass DC 19.

True enough.


Honestly, this is probably the build I would go with, just because a 20 AC unarmoured smite machine that is a Monk/Paladin is so amusing, with the AC going to 22 with the cloak and ring.

[Mr.Spastic]

The best thing would be the ability to play any class with any race. I could finally make my Dwarf War Wizard that has proficiency in medium armor and warhammers. You have so much AC and good saves. Its allows for Tenser's Transformation as a good option.

The biggest benefit is for the MAD classes like paladin and monk. There are more specific benefits like barbarians have at least an 18 ac and being able to play an epic blade lock. It also works great for bards and rouges. Rogues especially because their subclasses incorporate a third stat like int or cha.

Also everybody has at least a +4 in perception.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I’d probably save myself the magic item slots, self-cast Bless, and get items to do what I couldn’t otherwise (like fly). But, Cloak/Ring of Protection are definitely things I’ve considered as well, as +18 to saves and 22 AC affords you a lot of freedom, if your party could shore up your other weaknesses.

Edit: the other possibility is to use Monk archetypes to shore up those weaknesses magic items would normally cover. Four Elements gets you a limited flight (not sure if within 14 levels, though), Shadow gets you some teleportation options, and Kensai gets around the need for magic weapons with to-hit bonuses.

[FrancisBean]

... Cloak/Ring of Protection are definitely things I’ve considered as well, as +18 to saves and 22 AC affords you a lot of freedom, if your party could shore up your other weaknesses.

Did you seriously bring up the weaknesses of an 18/18/18/18/18/18 build? ("Uh, Lord Vecna, have you given a thought to your Dex saves? We do sell highly affordable insurance policies for that...") :smallwink:

[Lonely Tylenol]

Did you seriously bring up the weaknesses of an 18/18/18/18/18/18 build? ("Uh, Lord Vecna, have you given a thought to your Dex saves? We do sell highly affordable insurance policies for that...") :smallwink:

I mean, a monk with six 18s is as incapable of flight and true sight as a monk with six 3s, and that matters by twentieth level.

[Ganymede]

Putting the question simply, "What would your character plan be if you rolled six 18's for stats?"

Easy, an NPC.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Naked hawk headed aven Monk 14/Paladin 6, run around with only a dagger.


Naked goblin Shadow Monk 6/Gloomstalker 14. Become the night.

Oathbreaker 14/ Death Cleric 1/Celestial Warlock 5. Undead Knight.

Celestial Warock 14/Death Cleric 6 all the best necromancer spells. (minus finger of death)

Necromancer 19/Death Cleric 1. Nearly the same as above but WIZARD. so slightly better but celestial can heal minions.


Tiefling Bladesinger 2/ Horizon walker 12/ Shadow Sorcerer 6 Bamf. Lots of Bamf

[Misterwhisper]

Half elf
Lore bard 3, scout rogue 11, knowledge cleric 2, tome hexblade 4.

Feats:
Prodigy
Skilled
+2 wis
+1 dex and con

20 skills with proficiency
Expertise with 10
Multiple tool proficiencies
Gain thieves gloves, cloak and boots of elven kind.

Minimum skill roll total is 27 in any skill that matters before dropping a die.
In all skills that are lower priority is still 20 before dice roll.
Slight of hand to steal is a minimum 32, with that you could walk up to any npc or monster and rob them blind and they could never catch you.
Stealth is at advantage minimum of 27 and they have disadvantage to find me.
Take a ring of mind shielding and an amulet of proof against scrying and detection.

Nobody will ever know I am anywhere, and I will do anything and leave without them knowing.

[jdolch]

TBH I don't think it would make all that much difference in a lot of builds. Yes, it would make some, maybe a lot of, difference in the final effectiveness. But as far as i can tell the most powerful builds are only depending on 2-3 stats being very high. So in your case the other 3-4 stats would also be very high instead of getting dumped, which may be good in some fringe cases, but overall i don't think it'll make much difference in actual power. For example: I rolled pretty well on my last character and he had (after race) (16) (13) (16) (9) (15) (20) and I don't think the Char would be that much stronger with your array. In fact it would have probably almost no consequence if the (9) (13) (15) would've been (10) (10) (10) instead. Most builds have 3+ dump stats that don't really matter.

What it would allow you to do is some fun builds, that normally don't work at all because of MAD and that you can make work now, but i doubt that the builds are going to be a plus in raw power compared to the builds we have now that are SAD or only a little MAD.

Plus you will probably have the problem that now you are trespassing into your teammates areas of expertise and that's not going to go over so well. Chances are they will be so unhappy that you will reroll your stats.

[Tiadoppler]

A human divination wizard/knowledge cleric/lore bard, named Hindsight, with final stats of 20/20/20/20/20/20.

Why not?

The point of having stats like that is that you CAN do anything and still be effective.

[Spiritchaser]

I’d play a Paladin 6/Monk 14. Proficiency in all saves, 20 in your relevant defensive stats (Dex/Wis/Cha), plus enough ASIs left over to get feats to flavor your style. Be an incredibly hard-to-kill, mobile, versatile killing machine that can just float around the battle freely, doing whatever they want.

I’d do exactly this. Monkadin is almost unworkable without crazy stats, so I’d definitely go with one if I had the chance...

[BobZan]

The dream: Paladin 2/Bladesinger 18

The untouchable: Bladesinger 2/Monk 18 -> Lv 3, CA 25

[XmonkTad]

It would be a perfect time to make the Diviner 2/Empty Hand Monk 18. Finally get that save-or-die plus portent combo that's unique in 5e.

I'm seeing a lot of monks in this thread.

[Misterwhisper]

It would be a perfect time to make the Diviner 2/Empty Hand Monk 18. Finally get that save-or-die plus portent combo that's unique in 5e.

I'm seeing a lot of monks in this thread.

Because they need so many stats to pull off well.

You can do it on point buy. It you are going to be a d8 front liner with only ok con and pretty not very good ac.

[Pelle]

Naked standard human barbarian (Conan).

[Misterwhisper]

Naked standard human barbarian (Conan).

Conan is actually much more a fighter rogue than a barbarian.

[Citan]

Hi OP!

So for "basic" characters, I'd pick one of those already put in the spotlight.

I’d play a Paladin 6/Monk 14. Proficiency in all saves, 20 in your relevant defensive stats (Dex/Wis/Cha), plus enough ASIs left over to get feats to flavor your style. Be an incredibly hard-to-kill, mobile, versatile killing machine that can just float around the battle freely, doing whatever they want.


The dream: Paladin 2/Bladesinger 18

The untouchable: Bladesinger 2/Monk 18 -> Lv 3, CA 25

Besides that, I'd take that chance to make some of the craziest multiclass ever...

"THE Archer Cleaner": Devotion Paladin 3, Ranger 11, Lore Bard 6: unleash Elementally Powered Volleys.
Or swap with Fighter 11 for better single-target attack.

"The Nova Archer"
Battlemaster (Precision) or Arcane Archer (Seeking) Fighter 3 / Hexblade Warlock 5 / Whispers Bard 10 / Grave Cleric 2
Use Grave Cleric's "vulnerability on all damage from next attack" then unleash a sure-hit arrow thanks to Lucky and Precision manoeuver (by feat if needed), on which to tack Eldricht Smite and Whispers extra damage.

"The Boss Killer"
Grave Cleric 2 / Battlemaster 3 / Devotion Paladin 3 / Hexblade Blade Warlock 5 / Whispers Bard 5 / Rogue 2.
Same idea as above but for melee.
Extreme agility (Longstrider + potential Cunning Action) to pair with powerful nova through smites, bonus action Shadow Blade and Booming Blade. And it's short-rest sustainable too!
Devotion Paladin is here for extra accuracy in general, but could be "eaten" to get a feat instead.
Elven Accuracy is mostly useless here if you count on Sacred Weapon (meaning simple advantage is far enough to hit even AC 20), otherwise can be useful if you are also ready to spend one more round preparing.

"The most reliable weapon master"
Kensei Monk 11 / Devotion Paladin 3 / finish however you want (Battlemaster or Champion 3 if you are worried about wasting first turn buffin yourself, otherwise Swords Bard, Bladesinger or Diviner Wizard, Grassland Druid or Shadow Sorcerer are nice fits). You can give yourself +8 bonus on top of your +5+6.
You know only how to hit, but you are damn good at it. Disadvantage won't make any difference. :)

The Perfect Crazy Gish
(I'll detail it later no more time right now)

[CTurbo]

When I first read the title the first thing I thought about was the Monk/Paladin as mentioned above except you can make it a Gnome with Res(Con) for even more fun.

The next thing I thought about was a Tempest Cleric/Sorcerer for ALL the Lightning spells

The next thing I thought about was the Diviner/Open Hand Monk or Diviner/Assassin 17

I think a naked Barb/Pally would be a fun combo.

You could make a small character Paladin/Beastmaster(UA Revised) build with Mounted Combat and your companion/mount would be almost impossible to damage, much less kill. This is actually an extremely good build. The Paladin's extra attack stacks with the Beastmaster's Coordinated attack. The companion is proficient with all saves. You and your beast get 2 attacks per turn, and the beast is always in your aura. Tack on the cheesy dual wielding Lances trick for 5 attacks per turn.

[UrielAwakened]

Probably still a Sorcadin.

[Ganymede]

Conan is actually much more a fighter rogue than a barbarian.

What!? Conan is a bard with the entertainer background.

Andy Richter might be a fighter rogue, tho.

[Misterwhisper]

What!? Conan is a bard with the entertainer background.

Andy Richter might be a fighter rogue, tho.

If so he has a low charisma and is not trained in performance.

He is like negatively funny.

He can take a well written funny joke and still somehow manage to make it hard to watch.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The point of having stats like that is that you CAN do anything and still be effective.
On the other hand, multiclassing too much slows your acquisition of high-level spells and features. Seriously dippy builds will struggle even with good secondary stats.

I'd probably go for a straight Bladesinger, honestly. Fun subclass, painful without enough good stats.

[GlenSmash!]

Conan is actually much more a fighter rogue than a barbarian.

I quote from the first combat of the first Conan story Phoenix in the Sword (note that while it is the first published, it is late in Conan's career as he is already a King)


With his back to the wall he faced the closing ring for a flashing instant, then leaped into the thick of them. He was no defensive fighter; even in the teeth of overwhelming odds he always carried the war to the enemy. Any other man would have already died there, and Conan himself did not hope to survive, but he did ferociously wish to inflict as much damage as he could before he fell. His barbaric soul was ablaze, and the chants of old heroes were singing in his ears.

[...]

Conan put his back against the wall and lifted his ax. He stood like an image of the unconquerable primordial—legs braced far apart, head thrust forward, one hand clutching the wall for support, the other gripping the ax on high, with the great corded muscles standing out in iron ridges, and his features frozen in a death snarl of fury—his eyes blazing terribly through the mist of blood which veiled them. The men faltered—wild, criminal and dissolute though they were, yet they came of a breed men called civilized, with a civilized background; here was the barbarian—the natural killer. They shrank back—the dying tiger could still deal death.

[...]

But the horror that paralyzed and destroyed Ascalante roused in the Cimmerian a frenzied fury akin to madness. With a volcanic wrench of his whole body he plunged backward, heedless of the agony of his torn arm, dragging the monster bodily with him. And his outflung hand struck something his dazed fighting-brain recognized as the hilt of his broken sword. Instinctively he gripped it and struck with all the power of nerve and thew, as a man stabs with a dagger. The broken blade sank deep and Conan's arm was released as the abhorrent mouth gaped as in agony. The king was hurled violently aside, and lifting himself on one hand he saw, as one mazed, the terrible convulsions of the monster from which thick blood was gushing through the great wound his broken blade had torn. And as he watched, its struggles ceased and it lay jerking spasmodically, staring upward with its grisly dead eyes. Conan blinked and shook the blood from his own eyes; it seemed to him that the thing was melting and disintegrating into a slimy unstable mass.

Conan is a shrewd and cunning warrior but he is a Savage through at through.

Edit: He would however wear the best Medium Armor available. He doesn't purposefully go into battle in a loincloth, only when he has too.

[GlenSmash!]

Anyway. I'd play exactly what I'd play if I had Straight 14s. Some fighter/Barbarian/Ranger combo. Because that's what I like.

[clash]

I would finally play my Cleric/Wizard/Bard MC

[Vekon]

Posted a thread similar to this when I rolled pretty good stats that gave me an opportunity to play whatever I wanted(18, 18, 16, 15, 14, 13). Sucks that I never got to use them

I'd probably try a Monk/Barbarian. Probably Long Death and likely Totem. The idea of a man with nothing but the skin on his back being an unkillable wall of anger is appealing. Probably pick up the Tough feat and other tanky things. Do a 14/6 split and go wood elf for 70 ft. movespeed.

[LordEntrails]

I would re-roll. Doesn't sound very enjoyable to me.

[Citan]

Soo... Back for the Perfect Crazy Gish,

Obviously there is no such thing as perfection, goal here is to have a guy with ton of options and still can be relevant in high-level fights.
This means...
- lots of cantrips.
- lots of spells.
- ability to deal reliably damage when really needed or boost party in a way still good enough.

(Also I actually find this far from perfect, but my hidden goal is actually using all stats so...)

We'll start with Bladesinger Wizard 2: Bladesong, 1st level utility.
We'll continue with Bear Barbarian 5: Danger Sense, 10 feet more speed, Extra Attack.
We'll add Hexblade Tome Warlock 5: Ritual Invocation, Repelling Blast, Lance of Lethargy.
We'll put Grassland Druid 5 (for Haste mainly, Shepherd could be another option).
We'll put Rogue 2 (Cunning Action and Expertise).
We'll finish Life Cleric 1 (Life bonus for Healing Spirit).

This guy is probably a big psychological mess, unless he has multiple personalities, don't know...
Anyways, it's the guy everybody wants with them: can offload ally casters by taking care of all rituals (if they teach to him at least ^^), can take care of all adventuring needs (Water Breathing/Water Walking/Conjure Animals/Pass Without Trace), can bring up everyone to full health with just one short rest (Life Healing Spirit upcast with Warlock slots)...
And can still reliably deal damage either by going raging dual-wielding melee or by using ranged attacks while boosting party with a Bless.
Lacking the nova ability that would make him really brilliant against high CR creatures though, would require a different class distribution. :)

[Asmotherion]

Half elf variant with 35 speed

Hexblade 3/Paladin 6/Divine Soul Sorcerer 6/Druid 4/Life Cleric 1

Cheese anyone?

[darknite]

Captain America pretty much has 18s across the board, with some 20s in there as he progresses. I'd play him!

[FrancisBean]

I would re-roll. Doesn't sound very enjoyable to me.

In an actual game, I'd agree with you. Aside from a niggling itch to play something not normally viable... But I'm actually looking for the theoretical optimization conversation on this one, not the practical play. I don't think any of us would want to play it.