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Justdamohr
2007-09-19, 04:14 PM
Hello Everyone- I'm not quite sure if this is already a prestige class. I really haven't seen anything like it before then again my familiarity with most of the gaming materials is rather limited. However, I would like you all to post suggestions, critiques both on the class and also any technical things I may have done wrong regarding posting.This is my first time, so any help will be GREATLY appreciated. :smallbiggrin: Well I hope you like the prestige class, again, any help will be well accepted. Thank you.

Counterblades
The young mother fled from her pursuer through the dark alley; her infant clutched firmly against her chest as she scurried through the shadows in search of sanctuary. She rounded the many corners only to find herself caged by a dead end. When she glanced back, standing in their glory was the necromancer seeking her first born.
“The child, as promised,” he uttered with a malicious grin. The young mother shook her head fervently. “Then your life.” He whispered as he extended a withered finger and unleashed a green ray. The young mother cowered in fear, crying as she was to meet her end when suddenly the ray dispersed into nothing.
The necromancer stood shocked, “Wha…” he muttered. His body froze as he felt the cold edge of a blade at the back of his neck. “No,” he murmured as it pierced his throat.
The young mother peered up to see him slump to the floor dead, revealing at his rear, a woman clad in chain mail with a longsword in hand. She looked to her savior thankfully but before she could speak, the warrior had vanished into the darkness.

In a society secretly corrupted and manipulated by magical forces there are those who seek to test their adversaries for either honor or mere trickery. Wielding the strength of combat and specialized magic these individuals have disciplined themselves in becoming the banes and nuisance of spell casters alike. They call themselves the Counterblades.

Requirements:
To qualify to become a Counterblade, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any
Base Attack: + 5
Skills: Concentration 8 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 8 Ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats: Combat Casting, Improved Counterspell
Proficiencies: Must be proficient with light and medium armor and one martial weapon of any type.
Spells Known: Must be able to cast or have access to Dispel Magic.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells per Day

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+2| Armored Abjurer (Light), Combat Dispelling + 3, Extra Spell Slot (Abjuration), Specialization +1|

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+3|Spell Slayer,Turnstrike +1d8|+1 Level of Existing Spellcasting Class

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+3|Multi-Counter 2, Mettle|

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+4|Combat Dispelling + 4, Spell Break, Turn Strike +2d8, Extra Spell Slot (Abjuration), Specialization +2|+1 Level of Existing Spellcasting Class

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+4|Rushed Counterspell, Spell-Like Hiccup, Armored Abjurer (Medium)|

6th|
+6|
+2|
+5|
+5|Multi-Counter 3, Turnstrike +3d8|+1 Level of Existing Spellcasting Class

7th|
+7|
+2|
+5|
+5|Combat Dispelling + 5, Supernatural Hiccup 1x/day, Extra Spell Slot (Abjuration), Specialization +3|

8th|
+8|
+2|
+6|
+6|Booked Counterspell, Turnstrike +4d8|+1 Level of Existing Spellcasting Class

9th|
+9|
+3|
+6|
+6|Multi-Counter 4 |

10th|
+10|
+3|
+7|
+7|Combat Dispelling + 6, Perfect Counterspell, Supernatural Hiccup 3x/day, Turnstrike +5d8, Extra Spell Slot (Abjuration), Specialization + 4|+1 Level of Existing Spellcasting Class

[/table]

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d6

Class Skills:
Climb (Str), Concentration (Con) , Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Hide (Dex) Intimidate (Cha) Jump (Str), Knowledge (Arcana), Move Silently (Dex) Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
Counterblades are proficient in light and medium armor. They are also proficient in using simple weapons and one additional martial weapon of choice.

Spells:
As Counterblades train, they become more proficient not only in combat but also in wielding magic, becoming stronger casters and attaining additional spells with time. At first level and then on, Counterblades gain arcane spellcasting levels that stack with those of their prior arcane class, however they can only prepare or learn Abjuration spells with each additional Counterblade level. They can still cast spells from other schools, though not above the caster level at which they stopped attaining them, i.e. Say a character is a 3rd level Fighter and a 6th level Wizard. All spells prepared by the wizard are of a 6th level caster. However now this same character is a 3rd level Fighter, a 6th level Wizard and a 1st Level Counterblade. The character now cast newly attained and old abjuration spells as a 7th level caster, while their old spells from other schools have the effectiveness of a 6th level caster.

Armored Abjurer:
After years of isolated training in the Abjuration Arts and physical combat, Counterblades can cast Abjuration spells while wearing Light Armor without suffering the chance of arcane spell failure. At 5th level this applies to Medium Armor as well. This ability does not extend to any other spell school nor spell casting class.

Combat Dispelling:
Counterblades specialize in using Dispel Magic to thwart their opponent’s spells and so have become proficient in wielding it as a vital tool in combat. Whenever a Counterblade readies an action to cast Dispel Magic, or Greater Dispel Magic they gain an automatic + 2 to the dispel check. This stacks with whatever roll they attain for the spell, and can go beyond the maximum (+10 in the case of Dispel Magic or +20 in the case of Greater Dispel Magic) At 4th Level, the bonus raises to + 3, at 7th Level, to + 4 and finally at 10th Level, to + 5

Extra Spell Slot (Abjuration):
Starting at 1st Level Counterblades gain one extra Spell Slot however for Abjuration only. They gain extra Spells at 4th, 7th and 10th level as well.

Specialization:
At 1st level Counterblades cast Abjuration spells at +1 caster level. At 4th, they cast them at + 2 caster levels, at 8th they cast them at + 3 caster levels, and finally at 10th level, + 4 caster levels.

Spell Slayer:
Counterblades gain the Mage Slayer Feat however they do not suffer the -4 caster levels on their Abjuration Spells.

Multi-Counter
Counterblades have trained themselves to become wary of all spell-casters in the battlefield. At the beginning of a round a 3rd level Counterblade may ready an action to Counterspell two targets in combat but can only counterspell one target per round. At 6th level they can target 3, and at 10th this raises to 4 opponents.

Turnstrike
Counterblades not only disrupt spells but have learned to strike casters to lose concentration. By 3rd level, Counterblades can substitute an action to counterspell with an attack that does an additional 1d8 to damage from that attack (similar to a rogue's sneak attack against flatfooted characters). This applies only to targets casting spells and to those within melee distance or in range of 30ft of the Counterblade. By 4th level the damage increases to +2d8 to damage, by 6th +3d8 to damage, by 8th +4d8 to damage and by 10th +5d8 to damage. If a Counterblade uses this ability during a Rushed Counterspell, they incur a -4 on their attack, and should they use it during a Booked Counterspell, they incur a -8 on their attack.

Rushed Counterspell:
At 4th level Counterblades can ready an action to counterspell as a move action rather than a standard action. However, doing so incurs a -2 on AC. They also do not gain the benefits of Combat Dispelling although they can still Multi-Counter.

Mettle
A Counterblade of 4th level gains the Mettle class ability. Please see page 28 of Oriental Adventure (Sohei Section).

Spell Break
Counterblades gain the Pierce Magical Concealment at 4th level for free.

Spell-Like Thwart
At 5th level, Counterblades no longer are simply excluded to countering spells but also spell-like abilities.

Supernatural Hiccup
At 7th level, Counterblades have become in tune with abjuration magic that they can counterspell supernatural abilities by succeeding a caster level check of 10 + 1/2 the creature's HD + the creature's supernatural ability. Unlike Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic, the ability is not dispelled but suppressed for rounds equal to 1/2 the Counterblade's Class Levels (rounded down). Due to the immense power of this ability they can only achieve this a certain amount of times per day. At 7th Level they can only do this 1x/day and at 10th level 3x/day.

Booked Counterspell
At 8th level a Counterblade can ready a counterspell as a free action once per round instead of a move action however this incurs a -4 to their AC although they can still use Multi-Counter.

Perfect Counter:
By 10th level a Counterblade can counterspell as if influenced by the Greater Counterspell Feat without incurring -'s to their AC. They still can Multi-Counter with this ability.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-09-19, 05:31 PM
Hmm...I'd either boost their BAB up or get rid of the fighting fluff entirely. Also, a bit more detail on what the abjuration only note in the spellcasting progression means would probably be good. I'm assuming something like they can only prepare abjuration spells in their new/higher level slots and their caster level only improves for abjuration? If so, go ahead and give them full BAB. They can rely on their fighting skills for offense and spells for defense. Might even boost their HD. The idea's good, but right now the class is looking like a dedicated defense mage, not a warrior who has mastered counterspelling.

I'd say change rushed counterspell to an immediate action. I don't think making it a move action does anything, unless you mean that they can ready an action to counterspell as a move action.

With the rushed/booked counterspell, instead of penalizing AC, maybe just remove the bonus for combat dispelling, and say they have to roll a dispel check even if they normally wouldn't. The rushing it makes them less likely to succeed, but this will allow them to counter enemy spells while engaged in melee without getting themselves killed.

Spell-like abilities are subject to dispelling (I assume this includes counterspelling, but you may want to check on that) already. Maybe change the spell-like thwart to supernatural thwart, allowing them to dispel/counterspell supernatural abilities? Dispel check DC of 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha modifier maybe. Having someone on hand who can dispel a dragon's breath weapon would be useful. I'm not 100% sure what the balance issues would be on something like that, though.

Justdamohr
2007-09-19, 09:40 PM
Hmm...I'd either boost their BAB up or get rid of the fighting fluff entirely. Also, a bit more detail on what the abjuration only note in the spellcasting progression means would probably be good. I'm assuming something like they can only prepare abjuration spells in their new/higher level slots and their caster level only improves for abjuration? If so, go ahead and give them full BAB. They can rely on their fighting skills for offense and spells for defense. Might even boost their HD. The idea's good, but right now the class is looking like a dedicated defense mage, not a warrior who has mastered counterspelling.

First of all thank you for reviewing the class, I greatly appreciate that. I'm glad you mentioned the BAB because I was considering it earlier however I was afraid I would be making the class too strong with that increase, however it makes sense. So I changed it. :smalltongue:


I'd say change rushed counterspell to an immediate action. I don't think making it a move action does anything, unless you mean that they can ready an action to counterspell as a move action.

Yes I did mean it as a move action. So basically a Counterblade can attack and ready to counterspell instead of moving a five foot space with Rushed Counterspell, and attack, move and ready a counterspell with Booked Counterspell.


With the rushed/booked counterspell, instead of penalizing AC, maybe just remove the bonus for combat dispelling, and say they have to roll a dispel check even if they normally wouldn't. The rushing it makes them less likely to succeed, but this will allow them to counter enemy spells while engaged in melee without getting themselves killed.

I do agree with what you're saying, however I feel that there still needs to be some kind of penalty based on the technicality of engaging in combat and then attempting to counterspell. If I leave it without some penalty, its no different from simply casting dispel magic and that's not the benefit of the Rushed Counterspell or Booked Counterspell; rather it allows them to counter when they normally wouldn't. Plus Counterblades have the option of remaining at a distance. They don't necessarily have to be in melee combat, that's more up to the player's choice. But I totally agree with you about them getting themselves killed with the harsh penalties, so I simply dropped them down to -2 and -4 respectively.


Spell-like abilities are subject to dispelling (I assume this includes counterspelling, but you may want to check on that) already. Maybe change the spell-like thwart to supernatural thwart, allowing them to dispel/counterspell supernatural abilities? Dispel check DC of 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha modifier maybe. Having someone on hand who can dispel a dragon's breath weapon would be useful. I'm not 100% sure what the balance issues would be on something like that, though.

Spell-like abilities aren't subject to counterspelling which I did look up. Thank you for the reminder however. And as for the supernatural ability, I did consider that myself but again, to dispel a supernatural ability would be quite ridiculously strong so I decided to do something else with it. Maybe you can tell me what you think. Also I added the Turnstrike to make them a little more fighter based and also I kept the hit die because now I had to balance out the additional abilities plus the increased attack bonus. Please by all means if you have more input, I would appreciate it.

Again thank you very much. I hope this post finds you well.

D.:smallbiggrin:

Fizban
2007-09-19, 10:42 PM
How would this class work with Reactive Counterspell (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Reactive_Counterspell,PG)? I figure it should be on the bonus feat list at least.

I would suggest rewording Rushed Counterspell to say "ready an action to counterspell as with a move action instead of a standard action". The reason being that while counterspelling is a commonly understood term, it's a subset of the ready action rules and not one of itself. Semantics, blah.

On Supernatural Hiccup, there's no such thing as a counterspell DC. I assume you mean the caster level check required for dispel magic, but you should specify. Additionally, I'd just make it work like a normal dispel, except he doesn't get extra bonuses, and maybe toss in a penalty from -2 to -5.

Other than that, with 1d4 hit die and abjuration spells only (for all practical purposes), unless the campaign specifically requires the party role of abjurer, or the player cheeses it up, they're going to be largely useless. I'd up the hit die to at least 1d6, preferably 1d8. Even then, while it does it's job of countering stuff well, it can't do much more than AC buff and flank.

Not to say that I think it's bad, it's just too narrow to be widely applicable from what I've seen. I like counterspell classes for the most part, and you have some nice flavor there. Since it looks like your game will have lots of enemy casters, it should work out well.

Justdamohr
2007-09-19, 10:56 PM
How would this class work with Reactive Counterspell (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Reactive_Counterspell,PG)? I figure it should be on the bonus feat list at least.

Read it, liked it, added it. Thank you.


I would suggest rewording Rushed Counterspell to say "ready an action to counterspell as with a move action instead of a standard action". The reason being that while counterspelling is a commonly understood term, it's a subset of the ready action rules and not one of itself. Semantics, blah.

Thank you, didn't even know that. :smallsmile:


On Supernatural Hiccup, there's no such thing as a counterspell DC. I assume you mean the caster level check required for dispel magic, but you should specify. Additionally, I'd just make it work like a normal dispel, except he doesn't get extra bonuses, and maybe toss in a penalty from -2 to -5.

I will clarify that, and I suppose the miss chance really doesn't benefit that much. In thinking about it I figured the Hiccup might help but I believe most creatures are immune to their own power anyway so it would be essentially dispelling it. So its changed. :smalltongue:


Other than that, with 1d4 hit die and abjuration spells only (for all practical purposes), unless the campaign specifically requires the party role of abjurer, or the player cheeses it up, they're going to be largely useless. I'd up the hit die to at least 1d6, preferably 1d8. Even then, while it does it's job of countering stuff well, it can't do much more than AC buff and flank.

I'll see about improving its BAB and also I have increased the 1d6. Yes I agree, the 1d4 is pretty poor in retrospect. Thank you.

Fizban
2007-09-19, 11:07 PM
Yay, I mattered!

EvilElitest
2007-09-20, 10:01 PM
Its a pretty cool idea, i can imagine a small army of these guys could be devastating
from,
EE

AKA_Bait
2007-09-28, 09:19 AM
Looks good, only a few comments. This class actually seems... gasp, a little underpowered.

It looks to me like the fastest way into this PrC (at least by core) would get you there at 9th. Wizard 5, Fighter 1, Eldrich Knight 2. That's two levels of spell casting progression sacrificed. As such, the initial +2 to counterspelling with Combat Dispelling actually just evens out what the dispel check would be at that level anyway if you had gone straight arcane caster. I'd bump the progression up to +3, +4, +5 and +6 accordingly.

I'm not sure I understand why this class gets evasion, and even less so improved evasion. I would take those out, as well as the bonus feats (typically when bonus feats, in the whatever you want sense, are given the PrC does not also give spell casting progression, even if the CL is one lower)and replace them with the anti-caster feats from Complete Arcane and reactive counterspell as free feats. I'd stagger them thusly: 2nd Mage Slayer, 4th Peirce Magical Concealment, and 8th Reactive Counterspell.

If you really want to stick with bonus feats I'd go with ones that are more directly suited for the class concept, like Dampen Spell (PHBII).

I would also suggest chaning booked counterspell and instead give Greater Reactive Counterspell (essentially the same thing but you don't lose your next turn). That seems like a better capstone for the class.

One thing I would suggest is making the progression a bit less complicated. I'd change the spell casting progression to 3/4 of levels (skipped levels being 1, to avoid dipping, 4, 7, 10) without the abjuration only rule. I'd also add the following:
1st Level: Extra Spell Slot (abjuration only), Gifted Abjurer +1
4th level: Extra Spell Slot (abjuration only), Gifted Abjurer +2
7th level: Extra Spell Slot (abjuration only), Gifted Abjurer +3
10th level: Extra Spell Slot (abjuration only), Gifted Abjurer +4


Gifted Abjurer

At first level a Counterblade's familiarity with thwarting magical effects becomes more acute. He gains a +1 to spell caster level when casting spells from the abjuration school as well as +1 to the DC's of all abjuration spells he casts. This bonus increases to +2 at 4th level, +3 at 7th level and +4 at 10th level.

Justdamohr
2007-09-28, 11:25 AM
Looks good, only a few comments. This class actually seems... gasp, a little underpowered.

It looks to me like the fastest way into this PrC (at least by core) would get you there at 9th. Wizard 5, Fighter 1, Eldrich Knight 2. That's two levels of spell casting progression sacrificed. As such, the initial +2 to counterspelling with Combat Dispelling actually just evens out what the dispel check would be at that level anyway if you had gone straight arcane caster. I'd bump the progression up to +3, +4, +5 and +6 accordingly.

I'm not sure I understand why this class gets evasion, and even less so improved evasion. I would take those out, as well as the bonus feats (typically when bonus feats, in the whatever you want sense, are given the PrC does not also give spell casting progression, even if the CL is one lower)and replace them with the anti-caster feats from Complete Arcane and reactive counterspell as free feats. I'd stagger them thusly: 2nd Mage Slayer, 4th Peirce Magical Concealment, and 8th Reactive Counterspell.

If you really want to stick with bonus feats I'd go with ones that are more directly suited for the class concept, like Dampen Spell (PHBII).

I would also suggest chaning booked counterspell and instead give Greater Reactive Counterspell (essentially the same thing but you don't lose your next turn). That seems like a better capstone for the class.

One thing I would suggest is making the progression a bit less complicated. I'd change the spell casting progression to 3/4 of levels (skipped levels being 1, to avoid dipping, 4, 7, 10) without the abjuration only rule. I'd also add the following:
1st Level: Extra Spell Slot (abjuration only), Gifted Abjurer +1
4th level: Extra Spell Slot (abjuration only), Gifted Abjurer +2
7th level: Extra Spell Slot (abjuration only), Gifted Abjurer +3
10th level: Extra Spell Slot (abjuration only), Gifted Abjurer +4


Gifted Abjurer

At first level a Counterblade's familiarity with thwarting magical effects becomes more acute. He gains a +1 to spell caster level when casting spells from the abjuration school as well as +1 to the DC's of all abjuration spells he casts. This bonus increases to +2 at 4th level, +3 at 7th level and +4 at 10th level.

THANKS A LOT FOR THE SUGGESTIONS and ADVICE. I totally didn't see this as underpowered in fact I was afraid that this was way to overpowered but guess I was wrong. Thank you a LOT! :smallbiggrin: I've made many of the changes you suggested.

AKA_Bait
2007-09-28, 01:26 PM
THANKS A LOT FOR THE SUGGESTIONS and ADVICE. I totally didn't see this as underpowered in fact I was afraid that this was way to overpowered but guess I was wrong. Thank you a LOT! :smallbiggrin: I've made many of the changes you suggested.

Erm, you still have +1 caster level every level but first. Was leaving those in intentional? If so... the class is now overpowered.

Justdamohr
2007-09-28, 02:17 PM
Erm, you still have +1 caster level every level but first. Was leaving those in intentional? If so... the class is now overpowered.

I simply misunderstood what you meant by skill levels by 1, I saw level 1 for some reason. Now its fixed. Thanks. :smallsmile: