How to use Bluff non-evil-y?

[RoboEmperor]

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[Crake]

Use bluff to inflate the truth about your adventures when telling tales. That ogre was twenty feet tall! There were a hundred orcs charging us! The silver dragon groveled before us beseeching our help. Etc etc.

[Nifft]

Scaring everyone constantly, just for fun ... that sounds kinda evil.

If you want to do an equivalently evil thing with a different skill, but "non-evil-y", then I'm not sure what to tell you.

[Crake]

Do nothing but make sarcastic comments, but every time you do, roll bluff, and make everyone think your comments are sincere.

"That's a really nice dress carol"
"Wandering into orc territory was a great idea"
"I love trudging through swamplands for miles"

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Two words: Improved Feint.

Not a GOOD use of Bluff, but it's not EVIL.

Or if you're an anthropomorphic goat, Improved Faint.

[Zaq]

Bluff, by definition, is used to deceive. That’s its primary purpose.

A character who deceives simply for the sake of deception might be amusing. Unfortunately, they’re often tiresome when not roleplayed REALLY well, better than most people can reliably do. If nothing else, rolling Bluff vs. Sense Motive takes table time, and if you’re just lying for the fun of it, why is that interesting enough to warrant spending time rolling dice? Answer: it usually isn’t.

So you need a REASON to be deceptive. That’s the key. If you have a REASON for lying all the time, that can be fun and interesting. So what kind of reasons might you concoct? Maybe you’re a wanted man on the run from something. Maybe you don’t deserve to be in the position you’re in but you’ve constructed a false identity to get yourself where you are. Maybe you’re working on a long-term goal that isn’t socially favored by those around you (this can easily be something Evil, but it doesn’t have to be). But there needs to be some kind of reason other than “I like lying.”

You need both a big reason to lie and a small reason, too. The big reason explains why your character is a habitual liar. The small reason explains why you’re telling THIS lie to THIS character in THIS sentence at THIS moment. It’s okay for a character who’s good at Bluff to not lie all the time. That makes them more believable as a whole, actually. Whenever you roll a skill check and especially a social skill check, you need to figure out why you’re doing it and what benefit you hope to see as a result. If you can’t articulate a desired end result, don’t pick up that d20.

It’s okay not to use every skill on your sheet in every interaction. You can play a silver-tongued charmer who’s extremely good at lying when necessary but who only puts that skill to use when they’ve ended up in trouble they can’t resolve honestly.

[JeenLeen]

Something not exactly trivial is that you could spread misinformation about your team in hopes of tricking enemies (whether kill-you type or socially.) Make your enemy waste resources trying to counter you.

For example, spread a rumor that the barbarian is afraid of spiders. Maybe a noble trying to kill you enlists the help of driders or just monstrous spiders, only to see them squashed.
Or spread that the dragonborn is really Fire-based when he's actually Acid. Or lies about what elemental damage your blaster favors. When your foes shield against the opposite, they waste spell slots.

---

Though I do think you should talk to the DM and group and make sure everyone is cool with this. Explain the WHYs OOC, so players know you are trying to be cool even if your PC seems slightly jerkish IC. And some stuff, like if you go the misinformation route, makes sense to tell the party IC.

Going on what Zaq said about taking up time, your group might want you to just take 10 (and enemies take 10 on Sense Motive) for trivial stuff. Given most stats, that probably means you automatically succeed in trivial circumstances. You get the PC you want, and nobody wastes time. If this is a live table group, maybe make a hand sign for lying. (My group adopted the handsign that a LARP used for 'talking OOC' for when we spoke OOC, to help differentiate. It was handy, and could be handy to relay 'I be lyin'' without wasting time saying it.)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I had a Lawful Evil character (a blue goblin factotum/shaper/constructor) who had been blackmailed into being a mole in the Neutral and Good group (after he'd joined and become rather attached to them). He really didn't appreciate it, as they were relatively non-annoying, and they protected him from the many and varied people he'd ticked off. But he couldn't let the group know about it, since their trust in him was somewhat thin to begin with, so he Bluffed his blue buttocks off on both sides, playing them against each other. He sprinkled his reports with enough truth to get the group into trouble, but not with anything truly damaging. He manipulated both sides, and ended up causing far more damage to the bad guys than the party, while blaming it on factors entirely outside of his control. In the end, the BBEG was convinced that he was totally in her pocket, and outed him as her loyal minion. He teleported to her side as soon as he realized what she was doing, and he hammed up being Evil as they shared a monologue together. And right as she was about to teleport out, leaving him to solo the group on his own, his readied action went off, he nova'd the crap out of her, and he took down an epic spellcaster with insufficient contingencies (but lots of immunities), on his own, at a mere level 16.

The group was justifiably worried. But since he got her crazy-powerful loot and claimed all the XP for himself (along with inheriting her now leaderless information network), he just shrugged and asked if they could sleep at an inn for once, as he was tired of sleeping under hedges and wanted to seduce a couple of stableboys he'd had his eye on for awhile. The fact that he was then completely out of power points for the day and could've been picked off pretty easily was pretty much a non-issue, as none of their Sense Motives could touch his final Bluff check of the session.

Bluffing for fun and profit, y'all.

[deathbymanga]

Bluff has mechanical use outside of roleplaying as well. If you want a feat out of the deal, you can grab Improved Feint and use Bluff checks to get bonuses to attack by bluffing

[Troacctid]

Deception is a powerful tool against intelligent enemies. Especially minions. Convince them that you and your party are allowed to be in the bad guy's secret headquarters and you just bypassed multiple combat encounters.

[Lapak]

I just pose menacingly and give off an aura of terror so people shake in their boots when talking to the party. I'm a scary guy. How's that evil?
Just to jump back to this for a moment - deliberately terrorizing everyone you meet for no reason except that you enjoy their fear is, pretty clearly, evil. And it isn't just that you are scary; you are actively choosing to intimidate them.

[Talverin]

Every time you fail a roll, roll bluff to make everyone think it was part of your plan. Every crit becomes intentional. Every failure becomes a feint. Treat every single slip and misstep as an opportunity to bluff. It's hilarious, especially when you crit fail, tumble down a steep hill, and have to try and do bluff AND acrobatics to make it look like an intentional downhill charge... You saw the enemy down there, after all! When they saw you charging them so energetically, they fled rather than fight you!

Just make sure your Bluff is higher than their Sense Motive.
... Or don't. That's good entertainment, too.

[Telonius]

Malconvoker? That's a great way to use Bluff right there.

You: Now, go forth and kill that monster!
Summoned Baddie: Yay! And then we can burn down the orphanage!
You: Oh, no, they're helping me out. Part of the secret network helping me.
Baddie: Okay. How about that old lady..
You: Secret Society.
Baddie: The Cleric of Pelor?
You: Secret Society.
Baddie: Grr. The soup kitchen then?
You: Have you tried their soup? They're on our side.

[OgresAreCute]

Malconvoker? That's a great way to use Bluff right there.


I'm going malconvoker solely for the +2 calling hd and I am going to cast a grand total of 0 summon monsters so all of the malconvoker's bluff related class skill is worthless to me.

The rules say I have to also type something, so I will.

[WhamBamSam]

In my current campaign, our group doesn't really know which side to be on. We found ourselves thrust into the middle of a conflict between two sides that both feature some shady characters and undead monstrosities. As we attempt to determine the good course of action, we're trying to play both sides and frequently screwing it up, so we need to bluff our way out of trouble a fair bit.

[King of Nowhere]

Alright. If a scary looking guy scaring away children who stare at him irl is evil then I guess it's evil. That guy needs to go to jail for years for that. Such a sadistic cruel bastard not fit for society.
There's evil, Evil and EVIL. Not every evil act deserves years of jail. But scaring other people for the sake of it is certainly evil; you make them feel worse and you enjoy it

Bluff, by definition, is used to deceive. That’s its primary purpose.

A character who deceives simply for the sake of deception might be amusing. Unfortunately, they’re often tiresome when not roleplayed REALLY well, better than most people can reliably do. If nothing else, rolling Bluff vs. Sense Motive takes table time, and if you’re just lying for the fun of it, why is that interesting enough to warrant spending time rolling dice? Answer: it usually isn’t.

So you need a REASON to be deceptive. That’s the key. If you have a REASON for lying all the time, that can be fun and interesting. So what kind of reasons might you concoct? Maybe you’re a wanted man on the run from something. Maybe you don’t deserve to be in the position you’re in but you’ve constructed a false identity to get yourself where you are. Maybe you’re working on a long-term goal that isn’t socially favored by those around you (this can easily be something Evil, but it doesn’t have to be). But there needs to be some kind of reason other than “I like lying.”

You need both a big reason to lie and a small reason, too. The big reason explains why your character is a habitual liar. The small reason explains why you’re telling THIS lie to THIS character in THIS sentence at THIS moment. It’s okay for a character who’s good at Bluff to not lie all the time. That makes them more believable as a whole, actually. Whenever you roll a skill check and especially a social skill check, you need to figure out why you’re doing it and what benefit you hope to see as a result. If you can’t articulate a desired end result, don’t pick up that d20.

It’s okay not to use every skill on your sheet in every interaction. You can play a silver-tongued charmer who’s extremely good at lying when necessary but who only puts that skill to use when they’ve ended up in trouble they can’t resolve honestly.
That's an important point.
The best liars rarely lie, and they rarely lie blatantly. It does not matter how good you are at keeping a straight face, when people discover that you lied several times, they're not going to trust you anymore.
No, the best liars use truth to spin lies. They use small changes, omissions and misdorection to give different impressions while telling the factual truth. That way, if accused of lies, they can say they were misunderstood. Or that they themselves didn't knew that detail they omitted that actually shifted the blame. And if once in a while they tell a big lie, people are less likely to check for confirmation

Malconvoker? That's a great way to use Bluff right there.

You: Now, go forth and kill that monster!
Summoned Baddie: Yay! And then we can burn down the orphanage!
You: Oh, no, they're helping me out. Part of the secret network helping me.
Baddie: Okay. How about that old lady..
You: Secret Society.
Baddie: The Cleric of Pelor?
You: Secret Society.
Baddie: Grr. The soup kitchen then?
You: Have you tried their soup? They're on our side.

The winner!

[Fynzmirs]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html

[Troacctid]

But I WANT combat encounters :(

Yeah... as everyone pointed out, what I want isn't really perfect with bluff. I am a combat loving honesty is the best policy place huge value in my credibility type of guy and bluff is just... not a good fit.
So your question isn't really how to use Bluff without being evil, it's how to use Bluff without being dishonest. Which means the answer is you kinda can't.

[ShurikVch]

Non-evil bluff?..
Well, isn't it a classics: "These aren't the droids you're looking for." :smallcool:

[Deadline]

But due to recent character rebuilding, I find myself in a situation where I can either max bluff as a class skill or max intimidate as a cross-class skill, and I'd like to go Bluff because it's a class skill but... I'm clueless here. I don't know how to have fun non-evil-y. Telling random children blatant lies is cruel and this is all I got.

So... could you guys give me some ideas on how to have fun with bluff randomly in a trivial and not evil manner? Otherwise I'll just go with the cross-class intimidate which is usually boosted by my or my minion's size modifier.

I played a bard as part of a pirate crew for a game a while back on these forums. "Blue-Note" Bartholomew. My main job on the crew was keeping morale up, and telling outrageous tall tales to expand the reputation of the crew and ship. Many of them centered around my monkey familiar (thanks Obtain Familiar feat!), dubbed "Captain Smith". The grand tales of Captain Smith were many and varied (and most of the crew would greet the monkey with a hearty salute and "Morning Captain!"). Quite frankly, coming up with the various stories were the hardest part of the whole thing, but immensely fun.


To be absolutely clear, I just want to roll random bluff checks as the party does... well... anything like I used to with intimidate.

Just make up a once sentence thing to bluff about (should be fairly trivial) and roll the dice. I'd find it less interesting personally, but it should still work. I mean, if the general goal is to be using bluff much of the time for trivial reasons, then the reasons aren't terribly important. It's more of a "my character is generally always bluffing about something". This could be a silver tongued devil, an exaggerating storyteller, or even a suave con-man. It's more of a character trait than some sort of direct action. Is that what you are looking at? Because I'm a little fuzzy on what you are after. Randomly intimidating people is a choice (at least according to how the skills are used in the book). So what you are describing sounds like a general behavior, rather than a character trait. Something like "always frightening" seems like a fear aura might be a better fit.

If you are looking for something like that for bluff, maybe the Xaositechts have something? I think there was a general "chaos aura" type thing they had an edition or so ago that may have worked its way into 3.5.

[liquidformat]

Telling random children blatant lies is cruel and this is all I got.

You heard it here folks, telling children that Santa, the tooth fairy, and so forth are real is cruel and evil...

[NecroDancer]

You could bluff the villains. For example you could lie to the villains by saying that enforcement are on the way and they should surrender. By lying you can potentially end a fight without any bloodshed.

You could also lie to various people about your job. Claim your party isn’t dangerous that way you all can safely move around society without having to deal with suspicion.

As long as your lies don’t hurt people then you can safely tell lies without being evil.

[Telonius]

The rules say I have to also type something, so I will.

Aw, must have missed that downthread.

Still, the general thing is that lying can be used for Good ends - whether it's lying to your summons or to the Evil Baron's henchmen.


You heard it here folks, telling children that Santa, the tooth fairy, and so forth are real is cruel and evil...

Hey now, Santa has stats (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Santa.pdf). :smallbiggrin:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hey now, Santa has stats (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Santa.pdf). :smallbiggrin:I feel that, in the interest of the upcoming holiday season, I must point out that St. Nick is the patron saint of prostitutes -- look it up (http://mentalfloss.com/article/15857/5-weirdest-patron-saints). That certainly would explain what his elves get up to during the off-season (to say nothing of the reindeer), and how he can afford to give away all those toys every year.

I wonder if they've formed a union over the past few centuries.

I can only assume the above is why his catchphrase is "ho ho ho."

[Nifft]

I feel that, in the interest of the upcoming holiday season, I must point out that St. Nick is the patron saint of prostitutes -- look it up (http://mentalfloss.com/article/15857/5-weirdest-patron-saints). That certainly would explain what his elves get up to during the off-season (to say nothing of the reindeer), and how he can afford to give away all those toys every year.

I wonder if they've formed a union over the past few centuries.

I can only assume the above is why his catchphrase is "ho ho ho."

He also might slip a dollar into your stocking, if you're a good little girl (or boy).

Christmas is a fascinating modern invention. Apparently it started in NYC due to little English children being jealous of their Dutch neighbors celebrating the Feast of St. Nicholas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas_Day), which is presumably why we use a corruption of the Dutch name for St. Nick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas -> Santa Claus in the 1770s.

That's probably why Christmas is such a big deal in the USA and much less of a thing in Europe.

So (dragging this back on-topic) you could be evil and Bluff children into thinking that Christmas is about something or other religious, and not about urban commercial exploitation of parents whose children were enviously keeping up with the Janssens.

[Troacctid]

Use Bluff without being dishonest in a SERIOUS manner that jeopardizes by credibility such as being labeled a liar. As mentioned above, covering up failed rolls and being sarcastic qualifies.
Can I ask why you care what the bad guys think of you? I mean, they're gonna be adversaries either way. It's not like you're trying to establish a long-term friendship based on mutual trust and respect. Like, your plan B if the lie fails is "Literally murder them," right?

[Nifft]

I like being respected in a serious way even from my enemies. Liars have less respect. In any case I will use Bluff as the plan B and combat as plan A because being alive is more important than being respected. Behaving in a way that denies you respect would be consistent with your previous Intimidate tactics.

"Oh hey it's that loser who used to snarl and scare every random kid just to make himself feel bigger."

[Troacctid]

Plus, odds are good the mooks won't even know your name. Heck, you can give them a fake name. You can even give them the name of someone you don't like, and they'll be up at night like cursing that person for making them lose their respectable mook job.

[RoboEmperor]

Behaving in a way that denies you respect would be consistent with your previous Intimidate tactics.

"Oh hey it's that loser who used to snarl and scare every random kid just to make himself feel bigger."

Since when do strong silent types make sounds? I assure you when you look like this
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/f0/16/91f0160cdf3def377e62192ed02b6234.jpg
With this guy
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ad/f5/52/adf552148066339dcc2e6f72e108caa6.jpg
standing behind you 24/7 you only need to look at a guy to make an intimidate check.

credit for the 2nd picture goes to magicalmagicman for finding it and sharing it on this forum.

[Telonius]

I don't think it's been mentioned before, but there's also a less common use of Bluff:


Delivering a Secret Message
You can use Bluff to get a message across to another character without others understanding it. The DC is 15 for simple messages, or 20 for complex messages, especially those that rely on getting across new information. Failure by 4 or less means you can’t get the message across. Failure by 5 or more means that some false information has been implied or inferred. Anyone listening to the exchange can make a Sense Motive check opposed by the Bluff check you made to transmit in order to intercept your message (see Sense Motive).

This is basically the old 3e "Innuendo" skill folded into Bluff. You can deliver all sorts of secret messages in social situations. If you want your team to know what you're planning to do (or ask for their help) without letting the person you're talking to know, that's when you would use this.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What rules do you use if you want to convince someone of a lie for more than a few seconds?

(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm)


A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe.For that matter, what if you want to convince them what you're saying is true? Diplomacy? As far as I know, you only use Diplomacy to turn someone from more hostile to less hostile; you can't actually convince anyone to do anything for you, unless you make them fanatic.

[edit] Actually, you can only convince a fanatic to fight to the death for you.

[Troacctid]

What rules do you use if you want to convince someone of a lie for more than a few seconds?

(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm)
The full quote from the PHB gives context for the "reacts as you wish for a short time" function of the skill.

A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell. For example, you could use a bluff to put a shopkeeper off guard by saying that his shoes are untied. At best, such a bluff would make the shopkeeper glance down at his shoes. It would not cause him to ignore you and fiddle with his shoes.
Note that there are two potential outcomes given: 1. reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less), or 2. believes something that you want it to believe.

Interestingly, "Convince someone that what you're saying is true" could be governed by Bluff or Diplomacy, depending on whether or not it is an act of deception.

[AnimeTheCat]

You could use a combination of Bluff and Disguise to act as another person, build a person so to speak. That doesn't seem particularly evil (though I'm sure someone will disagree with me). You could probably just use bluff to pretend to be someone you're not in a town you've never been in before.

[liquidformat]

I am still lost as to what the point here is, bluff isn't evil to begin with. You can already use it in nonevil situations. For example ruffians come up and demand you pay them to cross their bridge, you use bluff and some quick witted words to get across the bridge with out being extorted into pay the toll, that isn't evil in the slightest. Another example, the henchmen of the bbeg come up to demand you go with them to see the bbeg, you pretend to be confused and use bluff to make them believe they have the wrong people. Again no evil involved.

What it seems that you are requesting: 'I wish to be an obsessive compulsive liar that everyone believes, finds credible, and isn't evil/come off evil..." I mean you could just always have the character telling tall tails. "Oh you are a blacksmith? I once tried my hand at blacksmithing, it took me a month to make the most amazing sword you have ever seen. In the end I decided it wasn't challenging enough and took up adventuring!"
"You are the BBEG? I was once a BBEG, it was really too hard I kept accidentally saving ravishing maidens from other BBEGs, oh by the way I am here to save the princess you kidnapped!"

Seriously this isn't rocket science it is just a matter of not going evil with your bs. Though also not annoying the rest of the party is probably a bigger concern than being 'evil'. Also I have to agree with Nifft on this one, if the point of your character is scaring random people, even if it is through force of personality as a 'strong silent' type you are probably not on the good side of alignment, especially if you are purposely doing that. If you are acting as a foil to yourself trying to be good and helpful and everyone is acting scared sure that sounds like you can still be good just misunderstood. However, from what you have described it sounds like you are going around acting menacingly and glaring at people until they run away in fear that falls on the evil side of actions...

[gkathellar]

Lying, like intimidation and indeed persuasion, is principally context-dependent in its moral status. If your mother is visiting, and there's an axe murderer at the door, asking, "Is your mother here?" then unless your name is Immanuel Kant you're probably willing to allow that lying is not always wrong.

While only a hard utilitarian is likely to reject the statement, "it's morally preferable not to lie," there's plenty of space in general for, "circumstances demanded a break from principle."

[Delta]

Literally the first thing that sprang to my mind when reading the thread title...

"Those are not the droids you are looking for!"

Yeah, bluff is always about lying and deceiving, but you can do that to help people just as much as harm them.

[Nifft]

Since when do strong silent types make sounds? You must spend an action to Intimidate, and thus you are making noise & otherwise taking action when you get to roll the check. Since you say you do this in every non-combat encounter, that's a lot of sound and fury.

If you've got a DM who can be convinced that you're able to roll Intimidate without spending an action, then you should try to demoralize everyone in combat and win that way. Also you should use the same (clearly incorrect but it works so hey) logic to convince your DM that Bluff works without an action, and just passively lie about things without making any sounds. That would solve your core concern.


I hate star wars. No wait, hate is not a strong enough word. I LOATHE star wars. (...) Why such a franchise is so popular is beyond me, but then again I'm not normal so maybe that explains why I loathe it and others don't. Since you've invested so much into not liking this thing, and you know so much about it, it stands to reason that you dislike it because it is popular, and you want to set yourself against the popular opinion for the usual teen rebel type reasons.

Incidentally that sentiment is part of why the franchise is popular: everyone likes to identify with rebels, and feeling oneself to be a rebel is completely normal.

[Elkad]

To take this a bit farther, what uses does a Paladin have for bluff?

Not just the prototypical Lancelots, any of them.

A LG version of word-twisting?

"Tommy! You know I totally have to report that - wink wink nudge nudge" - and then you actually do report it, anonymously?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Paladins are allowed to feint, aren't they?