Why aren't there more low level spells that target saves other than Dex or Wis?

[Thrasher92]

Just like the title, for low level spells you don't see nearly as many saves for Cha, Int, or Str as you do for Dex and Wis.

Why is that?

Would creating spells that target those saves be game breaking?

[Ralanr]

Idk. Maybe they would be too ineffective against too few classes or too many classes?

The game doesn’t really utilize weak saves often, which is both good and bad. Good because it doesn’t outright punish your character for dumping a stat they don’t use (Int) and bad because sometimes that dumpstat is the difference between life and death (Intellect Devourer is such a nasty brain puppy).

[Man_Over_Game]

Just like the title, for low level spells you don't see nearly as many saves for Cha, Int, or Str as you do for Dex and Wis.

Why is that?

Would creating spells that target those saves be game breaking?

Unfortunately, it probably has more to do with what each Saving Throw represents.

Strength is lifting something with raw power.

Constitution is resisting pain or poison.

Dexterity is dodging stuff.

Intelligence is avoiding a direct attack on your mind, and to see through illusions.

Wisdom is to avoid being forcefully manipulated into believing something is true.

Charisma is to avoid being something you're not, and to avoid planar effects.



Most spells involve explosions and shooting stuff, so that's going to fall into a LOT of Dexterity saves.
This is dealt with the fact that there are abilities, like Evasion, that directly counter Dexterity Saving Throws.

Charisma Saving Throws are very few, likely because Charisma is the most common spellcasting modifier. It's very common for a lot of characters to have a high saving throw in this area.

Many spells involve manipulating them, which uses a lot of Wisdom.
This is dealt with the fact that Wisdom is a pretty universal modifier, useful for 4 classes and anyone who uses Perception (which is everyone).

Making more saving throws using Constitution would just further the requirement that Constitution would be your secondary stat, for LITERALLY EVERYONE. By utilizing other saving throw stats, Constitution becomes less valuable, and it's already TOO valuable.


Making more Intelligence or Strength saving throws could be interesting, but far too powerful. Many beasts have a low intelligence score, and so do characters! With the severe lack of Intelligence-based characters so far, too many Intelligence Saving Throws would mean that players would either have to choose between losing survivability against select spells, or by having a worse stat spread. The same thing is true for Strength (which is generally only usable by 3 classes).

However, even after saying this, I still think it'd be very beneficial to make more spells that utilize Strength, but doing so is incredibly difficult. When would Strength be applicable when Dexterity couldn't be? Maybe make something akin to Heat Metal, but instead it just makes someone's weight reach massive levels, and knocks them prone and incapacitated if they fail.

[Keravath]

I don't know the reason WHY ... but is was a conscious design choice by the game developers.

There are three primary saves:
CON
WIS
DEX
There are three secondary saves:
STR
INT
CHA

Each class receives proficiency in one primary and one secondary saving throw (some archetype and class features may add to these ... eg. Monk Diamond Soul at level 14 proficiency in all saves, Gloomstalker ranger level 7 - proficiency in wis saves, rogue level 15 proficiency in wis saves.

As a result, in general, more effects target the primary rather than secondary saves. However, there are a few saving throws that do target the secondary saves specifically ... intellect devourer (INT save) ... banishment (CHA save) etc.

In addition, dex saves tend to be area of effect damage type saves in many cases, wis saves tend to be control effects or mind related, and con saves tend to be things like poison or other body effects ... though that is again a generalization and there are exceptions to each.

However, this is why a barbarian or fighter without wisdom save proficiency can be a significant party liability at higher levels since they are vulnerable to most of the control spells like dominate person which then leads to the party member attacking other party members. These characters are also more vulnerable to hold spells and similar control effects.

[stoutstien]

If I remember right con saves are common also below 3rd lv spells. Xan added quite a few int and Cha save spells but most are high lv.
Bane is Cha
Calm emotions is Cha
Entangle is str I believe
Those are the old ones off the top of my head

[Foxhound438]

In part it's probably something to do with the weak save/strong save thing, but it could also just be the case that weaker spells tend to do things that would naturally target dex and wis. Something like entangle targets strength not for balance reasons, but because it makes sense to (kind of). If they made a low level spell that for some reason was justified as pulling someone's soul or consciousness out to KO them while you're concentrating, that could make sense for a charisma save based on the general theme of the few things that ask for charisma saves, but the mental saves are all pretty muddy anyways. You could just as easily say that should be a wis save, and the same can be said for something like phantasmal force that normally targets int.

[clash]

This is because having 6 saves is a newer concept for d&d. In 3.5 they only had reflex(dex), will(wisdom) and fortitude(con), so most spells and effects still target those three saves because most of them were just converted to bring them forward. The other 3 saves (strength, int, and cha) were kind of tacked on after the fact and were not well balanced. This resulted in the 3 powerful saves and 3 less relevant saves. Personalyl, I think it feels like they only made it halfway to where they were aiming. Adding more spells that target the other saves might break things because monsters and pcs are created with the idea of 3 powerful and 3 weak saves, but I think it would still be a step in the right direction regardless.

[Willie the Duck]

Why is that?

I think it is a combination of Man_Over_Game's point about what each save represents and how easy it is to imagine a spell which capitalizes upon the Str/Int/Cha saves, and deliberate game design decision (to create weak and strong saves). It's also possible that landing on a 6-save system was a late-in-the-game-development, well, development, and they simply grabbed a few of each, threw them in, and called it a day.

There are certainly places where it's off, and definitely places where a save should happen where instead a check or the like is called for (Telekinesis, illusions, Maze). That I will call out as a poor decision by the designers.


Would creating spells that target those saves be game breaking?

I wouldn't think so categorically, but be careful. Players tend to shore up the saves they think they will need a lot. If you throw in a bunch of weak-save-targeting spells which are also really good spells, it will change player behavior. This might be good or bad, depending on how you look at it (if all of your PCs start playing monks and paladins, take a moment to consider if this is an improvement to the game or not).

[strangebloke]

It's that way because 3x only had dex, con, and wis saving throws. So most of the legacy spells also use those saving throws.

But this wasn't done mindlessly. It fits very neatly into the balance of the game.

Very simply, spells that target 'rare' saving throws like Int and Str are stronger than other spells. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there is a pretty strict hierarchy of Con<Dex<Wis<Str<Cha<Int. If you go through the Monster Manual, you'll note that its very rare for low CR monsters to have high int or charisma, whereas high wisdom (and wisdom saving throw proficiency) are relatively common.

Beasts have high wisdom compared to their other mental stats. High dexterity is common too, particularly amongst low-CR humanoids like goblinoids and bandits. Everyone has high constitution.

As you get higher in levels, you get monster types like dragons, aboleths, liches, demons, etc. who have high Charisma and intelligence. So a spell like synaptic static will absolutely wreck the aboleth's thralls, but the aboleth himself can probably weather it just fine.

Like, imagine how overpowered monk's stunning strike would be if it targeted intelligence? Pop-pop, the monk stuns four ogres in one round!