Lightfoot Halfling Rogue rules clarification

[Snig]

I'm having an argument with my DM and I'm wondering what everybody's opinion is.

Here's the situation. I play a Lightfoot halfling Rogue who used cunning action to hide behind the party's cleric. On my turn I fired my sling (gaining advantage and sneak attack because I was hidden) and my DM ruled that the target had + 2 AC because the cleric was between us.

I didn't think that's how cover worked but I could be wrong? What do you guys think?

[Snowbluff]

Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm. A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.
Potentially yes.

But if you pop out from the side of your cleric to make an attack I'd count you as hidden for that attack.

[Lorka]

That is not how cover work. Maybe the halfling have cover, but certainly not the target of the sling attack.

Many GM's are weirdly afraid of Rogues Sneak Attack especially in combination with Advantage.

[Man_Over_Game]

In the Basic DnD rules, page 74:


A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.


However, to say that your enemy benefits from cover wouldn't be much different than saying that someone shooting from a bunker has disadvantage shooting from the window because walls are in the way. Cover generally isn't two-way, unless it's an obstacle large enough that neither of you can aim around.

[Unoriginal]

People can provide obscurement, if it's the question. But you can just get out of hiding behind the Cleric and do your attack with the benefits of hiding, just like when you're behind a wall and pop around the corner for your sneak attack.

[Snig]

I guess that was my next question. If I pop out to make a ranged attack would I lose the benefit of being hidden before the attack?

[jas61292]

I'm with the DM on this one. Creatures very explicitly do provide cover, and you only are hidden while you have your ally between you and the enemy. And while a given DM can rule otherwise, the rules state that, in general, stepping out from behind them ends your hidden status.

[Man_Over_Game]

I guess that was my next question. If I pop out to make a ranged attack would I lose the benefit of being hidden before the attack?


If you are hidden -- both unseen and unheard -- when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

The general idea is, no, you make your attack as if you are hidden, and then you are no longer hidden after the attack is made. Otherwise, this line would ONLY be applicable to scenarios where you're hidden with nothing blocking your line of sight (like with Invisibility). This doesn't refer to Invisibility, it refers to Hidden. So you must be able to make an attack while Hidden, in most circumstances when you are Hidden. If it's almost impossible to move enough to have sight of your target while remaining Hidden, then this would be such an edge case that they probably wouldn't bother making a direct rule about it. Also, Rogues would be very nearly useless, as would the Skulker feat.


There's not much understanding on how "movement" plays a part into stealth, but generally, I make it that you're no longer hidden at the end of your turn if you were in an enemy's line of sight, unless your movements were Partially Obscured. I consider Attacking or casting a spell an exception that immediately ends your stealth after the act.

[DMThac0]

You hide behind the cleric:

You shoot w/o moving from behind cleric = Enemy is Obscured
You shoot by leaning out from behind cleric = Advantage + Sneak Attack and lose Hidden status.
Cleric moves before your attack = Lose Hidden status.
Enemy shoots at you while hidden behind Cleric = Disadvantage + Obscured

That would be my ruling on each of those situations based off the scenario you've provided, and based on my interpretation of the rules.

[Snig]

You hide behind the cleric:

You shoot w/o moving from behind cleric = Enemy is Obscured
You shoot by leaning out from behind cleric = Advantage + Sneak Attack and lose Hidden status.
Cleric moves before your attack = Lose Hidden status.
Enemy shoots at you while hidden behind Cleric = Disadvantage + Obscured

That would be my ruling on each of those situations based off the scenario you've provided, and based on my interpretation of the rules.

DM says I can't lean over and shoot because I'm still technically in the Square behind the cleric and my shot originates from there and I can't draw a clear line of sight to the target.

[crookedtree]

Personally, i would rule that you could fire the sling from either around the cleric or between his/her legs (especially because the sling is a one handed weapon). I think the cover would apply if there was an object/person not directly next to you and in the line of fire, but I might be wrong because I keep thinking of it like Uncharted's cover system.

[Tawmis]

You hide behind the cleric:

You shoot w/o moving from behind cleric = Enemy is Obscured
You shoot by leaning out from behind cleric = Advantage + Sneak Attack and lose Hidden status.
Cleric moves before your attack = Lose Hidden status.
Enemy shoots at you while hidden behind Cleric = Disadvantage + Obscured

That would be my ruling on each of those situations based off the scenario you've provided, and based on my interpretation of the rules.

I'd agree with this logic, as well.

[Man_Over_Game]

DM says I can't lean over and shoot because I'm still technically in the Square behind the cleric and my shot originates from there and I can't draw a clear line of sight to the target.

I found some official rulings on that which indicate that your DM is wrong. This is a conversation between Jeremy Crawford (Lead Designer) and a player, regarding how hiding works while attacking:


P: I am curious: when the rogue starts round hidden behind wall, moves out, attacks... is she hidden during the attack? Or, broke cover and no?

JC: Are you referring to an attack from behind cover, or are you referring to a rogue who moves X ft. in the open and then attacks?

P: Later. Rogue starts hidden, moves out to see foe, attacks. Players like to argue they are still hidden on attack.

JC: You can attack while hidden and gain the benefit. But if you run out into the open and then attack, you're not hidden when you attack.

P: my main problem is can a rogue attack with advantage thanks to hiding.

JC: Yes.

P: say if the rogue has to come from behind corner/tree/cover to get a line of sight, that's ok?

JC: Yes.


Here's the full discussion: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/03/25/if-a-rogue-is-in-complete-cover-can-they-ba-hide/

The overall consensus is that moving out of cover means you're no longer Hidden. However, you can attack around your existing Cover and this is neither considered moving or leaving cover. This implies that Cover-based combat is actually quite powerful, as you can take potshots without ever being at risk of being attacked without the benefit of cover.

[JackPhoenix]

Personally, i would rule that you could fire the sling from either around the cleric or between his/her legs (especially because the sling is a one handed weapon).

That's pretty bad justification, sling may be one-handed weapon, but you'll need more space to use it than with crossbow or a bow.

[Keravath]

There is a lot of DM judgement required for this one since the details are not spelled out well in the rules.

First - definition of Hidden - I usually interpret this to mean that the target has lost track of the person that is hidden. This may not mean that the character can not be seen at all but rather than the target's awareness of that character has been sufficiently diminished that they are unaware of and have no way to observe what actions the hidden character might be taking. Thus they have no way to react to or prepare for an incoming attack. This is what causes advantage on the attack roll by the hidden character, the target has a reduced time to respond to the action/attack of the hidden character.

If a character is hidden from a target they get advantage on their attack roll against that target.

The next question that is problematic is how do you lose the hidden status. Can you step out from behind cover and immediately attack without losing the hidden status? Several tweets from Jeremy Crawford would tend to support that interpretation. You can pop out from behind cover, attack and still receive the advantage of being hidden.

On the other hand, you also lose hidden status when you are "seen". This is where the different interpretations come from. Some DMs consider targets in a melee to be omniscient and can notice the split second anyone pops out of cover at any range and in any direction to make an attack since they can now be "seen" and so lose hidden status. Personally, I think these folks hate rogues :).

Many DMs allow characters to step one square and attack from hidden (since the idea of being hidden is that the target loses the ability to react to the incoming attack since they can't see it start). Most DMs would not allow any more movement than one square where you could be seen and remain hidden. Any more movement than one square and you would lose hidden status. Similarly, if for some reason the cover you are behind moves away, you would also lose your hidden status.

So ... we are back to the OP and which camp his DM is in regarding a short move before attacking with a ranged weapon. Can the character attack as he steps from behind the cleric and still have advantage from being hidden? (This is what a lot of people allow ... but perhaps his DM says no ... the target is omniscient and can see every movement in every direction and is instantly aware of your rogue as he steps out so he loses his hidden status). Under these circumstances the DM imposes a +2AC on the attack due to the rogue trying to shoot through the cleric ... since otherwise he can't be hidden.

It is certainly an option, I can understand why the DM might choose to interpret things that way (I may not agree with it) but it is probably one of the valid interpretations since the hide rules especially for halflings hiding behind larger characters are ambiguous regarding exactly what counts as "seeing" the character and at what point exactly the hidden status is lost. (For example, if the target is looking the other way because they were just attacked by the fighter from the other direction ... do they still get to notice the rogue step from cover behind their back?)

[Tawmis]

I've always just taken it as - when the Rogue starts their turn hidden - they are, obviously hidden - and thus get the advantage.

Because combat - while happens in turns - in "D&D" - it's happening rapid.

So for example, a Rogue quickly dives behind a large boulder (successfully making his stealth check) as Orcs rush the party.

To me, this means the orcs have lost sight of the rogue.

Now on the rogue's turn, he pops up from behind the rock, and shoots an arrow.

Granted, he's popped up from his hiding spot - but right up until then, he was hidden - so the attack is considered from a hidden position.

The rogue of course, loses his hidden status at this point, unless he takes a bonus action to dive behind some bushes after his launch.

[Man_Over_Game]

Even with the official ruling from Crawford (posted on my earlier response), I don't agree with it, mostly because I believe characters should have the option to move around and engage in melee combat from stealth.

While it's a bit of homebrew (and a bit off topic), I have make it so if you move out of cover, I say you're still "hidden" until you end your turn. Enemies just don't have the reaction time needed to respond in that split second of your action. Once you're back into cover, since you were seen during your turn, you're no longer hidden. Attacking is the exception here; any attack will immediately reveal you after your attack (as per the hidden rules, and to ensure that the Skulker feat still retains value).

Additionally, you can MAKE stealth checks while you are Heavily Obscured (such as through Fog Cloud, hiding behind a wall, or Invisibility), but you can SUSTAIN your Hidden status if you move through Heavy or Partial Obscuration (such as a heavy rain, a low wall, or light foliage). Things like Skulker or the Wood Elf racial trait allow you to Make your initial stealth check in Partial Obscuration.

With this system, players know exactly what happens and how they can remain hidden.



Just to reiterate, this is not exactly how stealth works, just something I've used to make things a lot simpler.

[stoutstien]

I rule as long as you change cover/ concealment each time you hide/attack you have the benefits of attacking while unseen. Note: depending on the range of the target the halfling would still meet the requirements for sneak attack- an enemy within 5 of target.
How tall is the cleirc?

[Man_Over_Game]

I rule as long as you change cover/ concealment each time you hide/attack you have the benefits of attacking while unseen. Note: depending on the range of the target the halfling would still meet the requirements for sneak attack- an enemy within 5 of target.
How tall is the cleirc?

As a Lightfoot Halfling, it doesn't really matter. As long as the character you're hiding behind is at least one size larger, you can hide behind them as a Lightfoot.

[stoutstien]

As a Lightfoot Halfling, it doesn't really matter. As long as the character you're hiding behind is at least one size larger, you can hide behind them as a Lightfoot.
I was asking for the sake of moving "through" the cleirc/party member. Could see a heavy armored dwarf/ halfling combo attack to good effect

[Man_Over_Game]

I was asking for the sake of moving "through" the cleirc/party member. Could see a heavy armored dwarf/ halfling combo attack to good effect

Battlemaster PAM Sentinel Dwarf.

Arcane Trickster Rogue Halfling.

I could see it.

[Snig]

I rule as long as you change cover/ concealment each time you hide/attack you have the benefits of attacking while unseen. Note: depending on the range of the target the halfling would still meet the requirements for sneak attack- an enemy within 5 of target.
How tall is the cleirc?

Female Dwarf height

[stoutstien]

Female Dwarf height

Mastermind halfling rogue/dwarf cleric with shield. wall of pain.

[Theodoxus]

DM says I can't lean over and shoot because I'm still technically in the Square behind the cleric and my shot originates from there and I can't draw a clear line of sight to the target.

I guess if everyone were 5' cubes that would make sense... but even as a 6'4" 280 lb guy, I don't completely block a 5'x5'x5' cube behind me. It'd be pretty easy for a companion I wasn't trying to block, to be able to scuttle around my form to make a shot - especially if he's half my height and nearly 1/10th my weight. And yes, even if the "heat of battle" where I'm actively trying not to die...