PDA

View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class The Unweaver (counterspelling prestige)(PEACH)



Dragonsworn
2018-11-13, 01:04 PM
Hello fair people of the playground :smallbiggrin:

I have been browsing these forums for quite some time for inspiration, clarifications, ideas and because they are plainly awesome :smallwink: Finally, my time to post for the very first time has come.

First, some introduction so everyone can be on the same page. I am a new player playing 3.5. I have had a brief brush with 5e and Pathfinder. Despite having read A LOT about the game (a huge deal of which from these forums) I do not have nearly as an exhaustive knowledge on the game as most frequents here do, while my actual experience is even less (highest game I have been went up to level 5, for various reasons), so I thought I would pitch this idea for people with the time and knowledge to evaluate. It is a(nother) 3.5 prestige class. Namely, a caster one. What is special about it? As the title says, it revolves around counterspelling (mostly). I absolutely LOVE the counterspelling mechanic of 3.5, I find it very flavorful, fun and think it presents a logic that ties really well with the glimpses the game gives us of how magic supposedly works! As such, back when I had even less knowledge of the game than I now do, I searched online for options around counterspelling. I must say, I was utterly dissappointed! I realise not many people like that playstyle, and that beating the living breath out of whatever is trying to cast against you is infinitely more effective, but with the fluff fear casters have for having their spells countered, you'd think the game would justify it a bit more....come on, I can't be the only one! Anyway, since the majority of the remarkably few counterspelling options I found boiled down to getting as much "+" on your caster level as possible and then using Dispel Magic, and since there was no prestige devoted around it as I initially hoped (I am aware of the ones that do exist, but none seem to make a point of counterspelling rather than having it as an extra option), I decided to make one

And hence the problem. You see, when I made that, I basically wrote down things I thought would be appropriate for such a character and then tried to match them one with the other and at proper levels. Where is the problem with that? My understanding of balance was abysmal! As you will shortly see, things went way off (some, at least)! On top of that, I was writing it while trying to make it work with a build I had in mind, which didn't help one bit with the balance!

Before I whip myself any further, here is the class in all its glory. I will be spoiling most of it to reduce the length of the post

THE UNWEAVER





The Unweaver is a spellcaster who, along with studying magic in its various forms and manifestations, has devoted a considerable amount of time in both studying about and observing the multitude of different ways in which the threads of magic accumulate, move and behave in order to produce their end effects…desirable or otherwise. In so studying and through practical application of their research findings an Unweaver manages to not merely cast a spell, but to actually manipulate the strands of magic into taking form. As they advance in power, knowledge and understanding, an Unweaver figures out how to perform these tasks under various conditions or to reverse them altogether, no matter where the threads they put in use originated from


Hit Die: d6




Requirements
To qualify to become an Unweaver, a character must fulfill all the following criteria

Skills: Concentration X ranks, Knowledge (arcana, nature or religion) X ranks, Spellcraft X ranks
Feats: Reactive counterspell
Spells: ?


TABLE: THE UNWEAVER



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
Spells per Day/Spells Known


1st
+0
+0
+0
+2
Weaver's focus, unweave item
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


2nd
+1
+1
+1
+3
Threads
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


3rd
+1
+1
+1
+3
Resourseful Weaver
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


4th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Weaving aptitude
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


5th
+2
+2
+2
+4
Thread sense
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


6th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Perused erudition
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


7th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Weaver's Sanction
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


8th
+4
+3
+3
+6
Resilient Weaver
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


9th
+4
+3
+3
+6
Expert Weaver
+1 level of existing spellcasting class


10th
+5
+3
+3
+7
Master Weaver
+1 level of existing spellcasting class







Class Skills
The Unweaver’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Use Magic Device (Cha)
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier



Class Features

All of the following are class features of the Unweaver prestige class

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Unweavers gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor

Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new Unweaver level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus metamagic or item creation feats, improved chance of turning or rebuking undead, and so on), except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. This essentially means that he adds the level of Unweaver to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly
If a character had more than one spellcasting class before he became an Unweaver, he must decide to which class he adds each level of Unweaver for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known

Weaver’s focus: The Unweaver gains the Skill Focus feat for the skills Concentration and Spellcraft. If he already has the Skill Focus feat for those skills, he gains the Skill focus feat for a skill of his choice in which he has at least one rank. If he already has the Skill Focus feat for all skills in which he has ranks he may choose any feat for which he meets the prerequisites
In addition, he gains a bonus on caster level checks made to counterspell or dispel equal to his class level

Unweave Item: The weaving of the strands of magic is the same to the Unweaver no matter how the threads came to be or who is doing the weaving. This takes form initially in the Unweaver’s ability to inhibit the weaving of magic threads from magic items. The Unweaver can counterspell a spell being cast from an item as if it was being cast from a character. All rules of counterspelling apply and all of the Unweaver’s class features can take effect. If the item being counterspelled was a scroll or an item using charges (such as a wand or staff) the effort is utterly wasted (scroll is now just an empty parchment, charge has been used to no avail). If an item is capable of unlimited uses (such as some staves having no limit to the amount of times they can cast certain spells) that particular charge is wasted, but the item suffers no other ill effects. Potions and permanent magic items (such as a belt of giant strength) are unaffected by this ability

Threads: Having observed the myriads of ways magic strands can be connected with, the Unweaver has picked up a thing or two. At 2nd level the Unweaver learns three metamagic feats of his choice. Each one of these feats cannot have an unmodified spell level adjustment higher than +1

Resourseful Weaver: An Unweaver’s understanding of the behavior of magical threads allows him to react to their weaving much faster than it would normally be possible. Starting at 3rd level whenever you counterspell an opponent without having readied an action to do so (as per your Reactive Counterspell feat), you no longer automatically give up your action for the round. Instead, for a number of times per day equal to your spellcasting modifier (Intelligence for Wizards, Wisdom for Clerics, Druids, Paladins and Rangers, Charisma for Bards and Sorcerers and so on), you can counterspell an opponent without having readied an action to do so and then continue with your turn normally. If you have more than one spellcasting classes each with a different spellcasting ability, your daily number of uses of this ability is equal to the modifier of the highest of the ability scores. If you have the same score on two or more ability scores each of which is the spellcasting ability for one of your classes, choose one of them to designate for this ability. Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed unless one of the ability scores rises higher than the others, in which case the highest of the ability scores is automatically designated for this ability. If later two or more spellcasting ability scores become equal again, the one you had designated the first time they were equal is once again designated for this ability and so on and so forth. Any counterspell performed in excess of this daily limit that had not been previously readied takes the place of your regular action for the round as normal for the Reactive Counterspell feat unless you have other sources of unreadied counterspells

Weaving aptitude: An Unweaver’s efficiency at matching and pairing magic threads is exceptional. Starting at 4th level , whenever you make use of your Improved Counterspell feat, you can now use a spell of the same spell level instead of one level higher

Thread sense: At 5th level, the Unweaver has grown so sensitive of the weaving of strands of magic that he can sense any such weaving without having to actually observe it. The Unweaver can sense any spell being cast or spell-like ability being used in an area around him equal to 20 feet per Unweaver level and pinpoint the exact location of the user. In the case of continuous effects such as mage armor only the initial activation is being sensed, even if the target moves. In case of effects with multiple activations like a Chill Touch, Call Lightning or Implosion spells each use of the ability is being sensed and pinpointed. If the Unweaver can see the target or if he can directly see magic (as per use of the Arcane Sight spell) then he can counterspell any target he has sensed (normal counterspelling rules apply and the Unweaver can use his class features

Perused erudition: An Unweaver of 6th level or higher has seen the same threads woven in so many ways or the same weave come out of such a diverse combination of possible threads that he never ceases to study the weaving of threads. If an Unweaver counterspells the same spell a total of 5 times he can then learn that spell as if he had learned it through the normal way of learning spells for his base class, provided he is of a high enough level and has a high enough ability score. If those prerequisites are not met counterspelling a spell does not count towards the limit of 5 times. For the Unweaver to learn a spell it must be of the same nature of spells that he can normally cast (arcane for arcane casters, divine for divine casters). An arcane Unweaver cannot learn a divine spell or vice versa unless it comes from an appropriate source (for instance a wizard Unweaver could learn Cure Light Wounds by counterspelling it 5 times from a Bard) For spells that are cast through items it takes 6 counterspells to learn a spell. If the Unweaver’s base class is one with a limited selection of spells (such as bards or sorcerers) whenever the counterspelling threshold is met for any given spell he can choose to swap a spell he already knows in order to learn the new spell as if they had gained an appropriate level in the base class

Weaver’s Sanction: Upon reaching 7th level the Unweaver has reached such a level of skill in weaving threads that he can always perform his most fundamental functions regardless of other actions. Whenever the Unweaver counters an opponent’s spell he can choose to meet upon his target an unweaving effect targeting straight ahead the threads present on them. This functions like a targeted Greater Dispel Magic spell except that there is no limit to the maximum caster level of the check. Any other ability the Unweaver has that involves counterspell or dispelling can be used through Weaver’s Sanction and the Unweaver chooses which effect (counterspell or dispel) will be met first upon his foe. No matter the choice, both effects eventually take effect

Weaver’s Resilience: At 8th level the Unweaver learns to use his counterspelling abilities in the most efficient way, so as to not be taxing on his resources. Counterspelling a spell will from now on not expend the prepared spell or spell slot

Expert Weaver: After attaining 9th level an Unweaver’s weaving capabilities are unparalleled. From now on the Unweaver can counter spell-like abilities as per the normal rules for counterspelling. Counterspelling a spell-like ability keyed-off a specific spell, such as a gnome’s racial spell-like abilities or a Balor’s spell-like ability (like Blasphemy) works like counterspelling the spell it is based on. Counterspelling a spell-like ability not based on a specific spell (such as a mind flayer’s Mind Blast ability) can only be done by using Dispel Magic. All of the Unweaver’s abilities work on spell-like abilities as if they were spells, except that it takes an extra counterspell to learn a spell from a spell-like ability with Perused Erudition and spell-like abilities not based on specific spells cannot be learned. Additionally, the Unweaver can attempt to cast a spell even within a dead magic zone or antimagic field, but only for the purposes of counterspelling, by making a caster level check. The DC for that check is 20 + the level of the spell to be cast for a dead magic zone or 11 + caster level of the antimagic field for casting inside an antimagic field. If that check is successful the Unweaver can make use of his other abilities

Master Weaver: On reaching 10th level the Unweaver has become the unquestionable epitome in the art of weaving magic threads both in skill and in knowledge. Whenever an Unweaver of 10th level or higher applies a metamagic feat to a spell the required increase in spell level is reduced by one (minimum +1 spell level, or +0 for for metamagic feats that normally have a spell level adjustment of +0). For example a wizard Unweaver could prepare a quickened fireball as a 6th-level spell instead of a 7th-level spell. In addition he may apply the feats he learned from his Threads ability to any spell he casts without an increase in spell level or casting time


Here is an explanation on why I put everything in there and why everything is as it is

First of, the concept. You know how I was trying to make this all about counterspelling. Well, at the same time I was trying to make it able to work together with Archmage and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (remember my balance issues?:smalltongue:) on something along the lines of Caster 1 or 2 or 3 (read lower for clarification)/Unweaver 10/Iot7V 7/Archmage 1. Despite how over- or underpowered this would have been, that struggle is prevalent in many of the features and the overall design. Nevertheless, my greatest fear stems from another ability

Now, the chassis. Since it was supposed to be a caster prestige, I gave it standard caster progression (half BAB, poor Fortitude and Reflex, good Will) and full spellcasting progression. That seems fair to me. However, i gave it 4 skill points per level, one because I find 2 to be too few and two because if a Druid or any other caster with lots of skill points ever chose to take it (for some reason :smalltongue:) their skill progression would not fall far behind their original one. This is also the reason why, although it mainly has the class skills of Wizard as class skills, you see Heal tossed in there (would probably be best to remove it though). Use Magic Device was once again my greed back then getting the best of me, but, as you can see on its class features, paradoxically has some fluff about it! The d6 hit die followed the same reasoning, but I am less confident about that

Let's talk requirements for a moment, shall we? I put Reactive Counterspell as a prerequisite, because it was one of the few things I found about counterspelling that seemed noteworthy and as such based most of the class around it. Having requirements on its own (namely Improved Initiative and Improved Counterspell) keeps its power in check, but they also either have some use of their own or the class itself uses them, so it seems that this part works rather well. As for skill ranks, it is still an "X" because I don't know what level would be an appropriate entry for it (classic 5? Higher? Lower?) (I couldn't decide back then because I was trying to make the aforementioned build work, and I just don't know anymore). The ability to choose between knowledges was made to allow all types of casters entry. As for spells, I am unsure of whether it should have a minimum spell level required, for that would once again force Sorcerers (and other spontaneous casters) to enter one level later than others...Not having one is, for me, quite acceptable, I believe the other prerequisites can set the minimum quite nicely (once I decide on it, that is:smalltongue:)

And now the moment you 've all been waiting for:
The class fearures

Weaver’s focus: This one was a combination of greed and the effort to make the build work. Is two feats (and these two in particular) too much? How about if the entry to other classes does not end up working? Is the bonus to checks too much? Can it work by applying it to counterspelling only? Or reducing it to half? Or both? Is it too strong with both the feats and the bonus? Would breaking it into two features, possibly at different levels, make it workable?

Unweave Item: Pretty self-explanatory. When first doing research for this idea, I realised that there is no definitive answer on whether items can be counterspelled or not. Does it seem to you that, under the conditions given, this is a good feature? Does anything need changing? Of course, if you think that items should not be able to be counterspelled, you may skip this altogether

Threads: Greed, greed, greed! I realise that now!!! Even with a +1 adjustment, three metamagic feats for a level (and level two, nonetheless) is more than generous (if you found that overpowering, I can't imagine your reaction when reading the capstone :smallbiggrin::smalltongue::smallamused:)

Resourseful Weaver: The defining ability of the class. What actually makes you a dedicated counterspeller, and what makes counterspelling worth the effort (I think...I hope). I believe I did a pretty good job on this one. Thoughts? On a side note, do you think that taking the opportunity here to change the "This counterspell action takes the place of your next turn" clause on the Reactive Counterspell feat to only lose your standard action instead of your whole turn would be pushing it?

Weaving aptitude: If Resourseful Weaver didn't do enough to make counterspelling a viable option, this one definitely does. I think it is quite balanced, since most of the times your BBEG will have higher level spells, but even if not it still makes Improved Counterspell a viable feat. It was way after writing this class that I learned of the existance of Earth Spell and all the nasty things one can do with it...Still, I find it does not pose that big a problem (as I initially feared). For one, if that is what makes you capable of facing the BBEG it would probably be too difficult an encounter anyway, and two, if someone wishes to pull that off, THAT'S SIX FREAKING FEATS. Seems ok to me

Thread sense: One of the things changed with time. When I made the class, I was unaware of the existence of Rings of Spellbattle. Now that I know about them, I don't know what to do with this feature...Should I copy the ring? Should I leave it as it is? Should I remove it altogether? Does it warrant any changes? What do you guys think?

Perused erudition: One of the greediest things I did here. I thought giving a few extra spells to limited spells known classes would be fun (original version was for limited spells known classes to learn those spells in excess of their limit), realised there would be no end to this, tried to fix it, messed it up. Probably would be best to omit this feature altogether, but how does keeping the swap part sound?

Weaver’s Sanction: The embodiment of the lurking greed when making the class. The original idea was to make an opponent who was counterspelled suffer the effects of Iot7V's Kaleidoscopic Doom and Archmage's Mastery of Counterspelling in one go, with one action and, most importantly, with no daily limit...I know, I know... In spite of this, does the effect itself sound good? Would it be worth keeping it if I removed the "Any other ability the Unweaver has that involves counterspell or dispelling can be used through Weaver’s Sanction" clause and/or adding a daily limit?

Weaver’s Resilience: This is what I am mostly afraid of and, surprisingly, this one was actually not the biproduct of unquenchable greed but overwhelming lack of proper balance understanding. I thought that a caster that both counters other casters and casts on his own would go through his spells in a flash, so tried to make it a bit less resourse intensive. Instead, I managed to make a class that could render someone capable of bringing down many high-end and possibly well optimised charasters, even other casters, plus a few armies entirelly on their own (and if my lack of experience is not proving worse than I thought, not with excruciating difficulty). if you don't see why, read the next class feature

Expert Weaver: All problematic things with this homebrew aside for a moment, how does this look? I thought that for such a consummate counterspeller, the first part of this ability was appropriate (keep in mind, at the first draft it also included Supernatural abilities, but I quickly scratched that when I remembered that a dragon's breath weapon is supernatural and tried to wrap my head around counterspelling a dragon's fire :smalltongue:). Before you answer, keep in mind that this is supposed to also enable someone to counterspell a Warlock's invocations. This is intended, but not included in the text as when I wrote the class I had not read up on Warlocks and decided to present it unchanged. But since Warlocks are "casters" with the broad sense, being able to counterspell a broad type of abilities seemed appropriate, and also a quite unique ability that could, among with a few others, be considered class-defining
Now, as far as the second part is concerned, if you think this looks a lot like the Initiate of Mystra feat, you are absolutely right :smalltongue::smallwink: I found it by chance one day, and it immediately stroke me as extremely appropriate for this class, albeit without the extra spells and only for counterspelling. Maybe too strong, don't know enough about the game to say. What do you guys think? Should it be two different abilities at different levels?

As I have already said, despite being quite proud for most of my ideas and being able to make some of the less good ones work, at this point something unforeseen occured. I was mentally toying with this class one day with a few possible builds, and a scenario hit me that at first thrilled me and then left me torn. Say you make a Sorcerer and pick this up. A Sorcerer knows 9 cantrips as soon as level 10. Now say you play around this class and pick one of each school, as well as one "universal" one for those few times. By combining this with Weaver’s Resilience, Expert Weaver and Heighten Spell, you could completely shut down anything remotely resembling a caster WITHOUT GIVING UP ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING (except for your daily uses of counterspell, but that is the whole point of the class). If you add Iot7V on top of that, this guy becomes quite literally untouchable, as you can't melee him (Iot7V's defensive capabilities have been thouroughly discussed elsewhere, so I am not going too talk about it any further), casting does not work and, most importantly, HE IS STILL A FULL FLEDGED CASTER. Removing Iot7V certainly fixes that part, as it drops him back down to being a regular caster (irony intended:smalltongue::smallamused:), but anything caster related is completely and irrevocably trampled (at least the way it plays out in my mind). And if you consider that most high-level monsters are filled to the brim with SLAs, I am starting to feel this is unfixable

Master Weaver: An all so familiar capstone, it is present on some of the most powerful prestige classes ever, yet surprisingly it is not the cornerstone of their power (though it certainly contributes). The reason I used it (besides the everpresent greed) was a) at the time I was learning up on metamagic reducers and was kind of fixated on the idea and b) with the entire class revolving around counterspelling, I felt it needed something to help it with its more regular casting. Too strong for it? The second part should probably be removed, buried and forgotten about

Additionally, and with the number of things that could be removed, I also have an Alternate Class Feature as a possibility for the class

Alternate class feature:

Weaver’s tools: While gaining levels the Unweaver never ceases to amass knowledge for magic threads and studying their effects. As such, the Unweaver is always properly equipped to handle any issue involving magical threads and has the right tool for the job. At each Unweavered level gained, the character gains a new spell with which to perform tasks proper for an Unweaver. These spells are automatically learned when reaching the appropriate level, but only if the character is of a high enough level and has a high enough ability score; otherwise, the spell is learned immediately once these conditions are met. The spell is of a nature appropriate to the spells the Unweaver casts (arcane for arcane casters, divine for divine casters). For casters with a limited selection of spells (such as sorcerers or bards), these spells do not count toward your limit of spells known and cannot be swapped by leveling up

1st : Detect Magic
2nd : Dispelling Touch
3rd : Arcane Turmoil
4th : Dispel Magic
5th : Tenacious Dispelling
6th : Slashing Dispel
7th : Spelltheft
8th : Greater Dispel Magic
9th : Chain Dispel

This feature is based on an earlier concept for a feature that worked the same way but had only Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic and Disjunction in it. I had scrapped it back then when I came up with the ideas for the features present, but ended up updating it when after a lot of time I stumbled upon this "handbook" coboard.wikia.com/wiki/Counterspelling_%26_Dispelling[/url] and was inspired to make this as an alternative in case I ended up removing too much stuff

So, how does it look?

Edit before even posting: This post was originally filled with links, but since this is my first post I am not allowed to post them...C'est la vie

Dragonsworn
2018-11-13, 01:05 PM
Reserved just in case

Edit: And the case came up. Could someone tell me how to properly create a table in a post?

Edit 2: Nevermind, found it

Dragonsworn
2018-11-13, 01:28 PM
Experimented with the site's workings, can't erase post. Ignore this

QuadraticGish
2018-11-16, 10:46 AM
Have you considered having some features expand of the effectiveness of Dispel Magic and its greater variant? They're fairly useful spells for the purpose. Maybe you should also look at Spellturning and Glode of Invulnerability as well. I noticed that you had a stipulation there to allow counterspelling charged items. What about allow for the Unweaver to begin dispelling with a Wand of Dispel magic or a staff that possess that or its greater verison?

Dragonsworn
2018-11-18, 05:52 AM
QuadraticGish thank you for taking the time to read through my ideas (and ramblings:smalltongue:) and giving some feedback

Firstly, overall, in making this class I was trying to create some interesting class features that would make counterspelling if not ideal then at least viable as a playstyle (if that goal was achieved remains to be seen...). As such, focusing on certain specific spells had not crossed my mind! Thus, if you could extrapolate on your suggestions, that would be very helpful!


Have you considered having some features expand of the effectiveness of Dispel Magic and its greater variant? You mean as a means to dispel or counterspell? The only obvious expansion I can think of would be to increase the cap on the check or to allow them to dispel spells they normally can't (but those are usually subject to other spells, so I am not sure it would be a great idea). If you have something more interesting in mind, please share (I am starting to see even the makings of another class in that)


Maybe you should also look at Spellturning and Glode of Invulnerability as well same issues


What about allow for the Unweaver to begin dispelling with a Wand of Dispel magic or a staff that possess that or its greater verison? I was undrer the impression that such an item was already capable of imitating all workings of the spell :smallconfused: Was I wrong, or do you mean something else?

Also, do you have a comment on my own worries about the class?

Dragonsworn
2018-12-04, 11:43 AM
Wow, over 150 views and but a single reply...And I had such high hopes for this class...:smalltongue:

DeTess
2018-12-04, 11:49 AM
At first glance, I've got two comments:

1. Why does this have a d6 hit-die instead of a d4? edit: ah, to make it match the druid more. still, I'd move it to d4 given how casting-focussed it is.
2. I think it might be better balance-wise if this was a 9/10 or 8/10 casting class. Right now it's basically all the goodies with absolutely no drawback whatsoever. Alternatively you could give it a hefty feat-tax.

Dragonsworn
2018-12-07, 11:39 AM
At first glance, I've got two comments:

1. Why does this have a d6 hit-die instead of a d4? edit: ah, to make it match the druid more. still, I'd move it to d4 given how casting-focussed it is.
2. I think it might be better balance-wise if this was a 9/10 or 8/10 casting class. Right now it's basically all the goodies with absolutely no drawback whatsoever. Alternatively you could give it a hefty feat-tax.

d6 does indeed seem too much for a purely casting prestige. Would probably be best to change it. Are there any d6 prestiges that focused on casting?

I gave it full casting because a) there are many full casting prestige classes (not necessarily the completely OP and broken ones, even more "simple", "mundane" and "practical" ones) and b) it already has a feat tax. Entry requires a feat which already has two feats as prerequisites on its own! Granted, they either have uses of their own or the prestige makes use of them in some way, but both the feats and the class seem specialised enough to not worry about making too strong a character. And keep in mind that someone wanted to build a dedicated counterspeller, they would try to acquire other feats too, leaving even less room for generall spellcasting enhancement

Maat Mons
2018-12-07, 05:18 PM
Your research led you here (https://web.archive.org/web/20131129191631/http://community.wizards.com:80/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1239466), right?



The Divine Defiance feat (FCII) lets you counterspell as a swift action. I feel like that should be the standard by which all other counterspelling abilities are judged.



It might simplify things to make this an arcane-only class. You wouldn't have to worry so much about compatability.

And divine casters already have the capacity to rule at counterspelling. They have semi-exclusive access to Divine Defiance (it requires turning). Clerics have a domain that gives +4 to dispel. And Dragom mag has an ACF for clerics that doubles a domain granted power, in exchange for losing the other domain. So that could easily be +8 to dispel.

nonsi
2018-12-08, 06:00 AM
If you have more than one spellcasting classes each with a different spellcasting ability, your daily number of uses of this ability is equal to the modifier of the highest of the ability scores. If you have the same score on two or more ability scores each of which is the spellcasting ability for one of your classes, choose one of them to designate for this ability. Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed unless one of the ability scores rises higher than the others, in which case the highest of the ability scores is automatically designated for this ability. If later two or more spellcasting ability scores become equal again, the one you had designated the first time they were equal is once again designated for this ability and so on and so forth.



This can be greatly simplified as follows:
"If you have several spellcasting classes with different spellcasting abilities, choose the highest corresponding ability score among them for the purpose of determining your daily number of uses of this ability."

Now there's no need for players to trouble themselves with how level progression affects this feature.

Dragonsworn
2018-12-10, 11:29 AM
Your research led you here, right?



The Divine Defiance feat (FCII) lets you counterspell as a swift action. I feel like that should be the standard by which all other counterspelling abilities are judged.



It might simplify things to make this an arcane-only class. You wouldn't have to worry so much about compatability.

And divine casters already have the capacity to rule at counterspelling. They have semi-exclusive access to Divine Defiance (it requires turning). Clerics have a domain that gives +4 to dispel. And Dragom mag has an ACF for clerics that doubles a domain granted power, in exchange for losing the other domain. So that could easily be +8 to dispel.

Indeed it did, and it helped a lot, though I found this coboard.wikia.com/wiki/Counterspelling_%26_Dispelling" to be more helpful (more info, better format)

I am aware of that feat, and it is indeed awesome (the "unless you have other sources of unreadied counterspells" clause in the Resourseful Weaver ability was written with that feat in mind). I really like it, but I wanted to use counterpell in the more "original" way than expending a resourse used so scarse it has been repurposed into the standard divine fuel. Plus, acquiring Turn Undead on a non-Cleric requires some effort (levels in other classes, which might not be a deal for allpowerful Wizards, but others might have...issues) and the aim of this class is to make couterspell a reliable solution for everyone (though a Cleric with both would ROCK!!!!!:smallcool:). This is also why I didn't restrict it to arcane casters only

Yes, but that is on a Cleric with the ultra expendable Turn Undead and the number of ways to have lots of turn attempts (or anyone who could mimic those functions). Counterspelling should be a univeral anti-casting tactic, especially since fluff-wise arcane casters are the most vulnerable/frequent to and the ones that fear most about being counterspelled (a fear that could and should be exploited). Plus, I do not use Dragon Magazine stuff (mainly due to not having it and having to track each issue)


This can be greatly simplified as follows:
"If you have several spellcasting classes with different spellcasting abilities, choose the highest corresponding ability score among them for the purpose of determining your daily number of uses of this ability."

Now there's no need for players to trouble themselves with how level progression affects this feature.

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek:

You know, I feel I should have found a simpler way to phrase this on my own...In my defence, I was trying to find a way to stop abuses like buffing one score higher than the other and refreshing your daily pool, which would again be refreshed after the buff had faded. Then again, I suppose adusers will always find a way :smalltongue:

Dragonsworn
2018-12-21, 06:24 PM
Does anyone have any comments/insights/whatever on my own worries about the class?